MO Midden-Oosten
Bespreek hier de actuele situatie omtrent het Midden-Oosten.
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Zie voor live-updates the Guardian.
Meer foto's vanuit Libi hier.
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Laatste FP:
Amerikaanse oorlogsschepen naar Libi
Dodenlijsten
Hoe beoordeel je bronnen?
Dingen die je kan doen om de revolutie te steunen
[ Bericht 2% gewijzigd door Nibb-it op 02-03-2011 23:03:39 ]
AJEnglish Al Jazeera English
Arabs may impose Libya no fly zone: International concern grows over violence in Libya with Arab state ministers... http://aje.me/fMS80g
1 minute ago
Arabs may impose Libya no fly zone: International concern grows over violence in Libya with Arab state ministers... http://aje.me/fMS80g
1 minute ago
De kans is juist extreem klein. Welk Arabisch land acht je zo achterlijk om de VS openlijk aan te vallen? En al helemaal niet om Gadaffi, die toch al niet zo geliefd is in de regio.quote:Op woensdag 2 maart 2011 20:44 schreef aerdt het volgende:
[..]
Klopt, maar zodra je libische vliegtuigen gaat neerschieten is het plotseling een oorlogsituatie. Als er dan ook nog eens commando's landen op libische grond dan zal dit zeker in de arabische wereld beschouwd worden als een invasie. De kans is vrij groot dat een aantal landen dit zullen aangrijpen om zich er mee te gaan bemoeien.
Blijkbaar wel geliefd bij een paar Afrikaanse landen.quote:
[..]
De kans is juist extreem klein. Welk Arabisch land acht je zo achterlijk om de VS openlijk aan te vallen? En al helemaal niet om Gadaffi, die toch al niet zo geliefd is in de regio.
Free Assange! Hack the Planet
[b]Op dinsdag 6 januari 2009 19:59 schreef Papierversnipperaar het volgende:[/b]
De gevolgen van de argumenten van de anti-rook maffia
[b]Op dinsdag 6 januari 2009 19:59 schreef Papierversnipperaar het volgende:[/b]
De gevolgen van de argumenten van de anti-rook maffia
Kijk, dat kan ook nog!quote:
AJEnglish Al Jazeera English
Arabs may impose Libya no fly zone: International concern grows over violence in Libya with Arab state ministers... http://aje.me/fMS80g
1 minute ago
Free Assange! Hack the Planet
[b]Op dinsdag 6 januari 2009 19:59 schreef Papierversnipperaar het volgende:[/b]
De gevolgen van de argumenten van de anti-rook maffia
[b]Op dinsdag 6 januari 2009 19:59 schreef Papierversnipperaar het volgende:[/b]
De gevolgen van de argumenten van de anti-rook maffia
Ja die gaan even hun technicals inzetten tegen Amerikaanse F-22's.quote:
[..]
Blijkbaar wel geliefd bij een paar Afrikaanse landen.
Dit lijkt me aannemelijker. Zal die Liga eindelijk eens nut hebben.quote:
AJEnglish Al Jazeera English
Arabs may impose Libya no fly zone: International concern grows over violence in Libya with Arab state ministers... http://aje.me/fMS80g
1 minute ago
Lol, VS die eventueel een nieuw olierijk gebied binnenvalt en je denkt dat het niet onrustig wordt? Gadaffi is redelijk goede vrienden met Syrie. Syrie is een boezemvriend van Iran. Ik kan zo 4 organisaties noemen die amerikaanse doelen kunnen aanvallen in de gehele regio. En wat gaan de Amerikanen doen mocht het gebeuren?? Het Midden-Oosten aanvallen?? Je overschat de VS wel heel erg als je denkt dat ze dat kunnen.quote:
[..]
De kans is juist extreem klein. Welk Arabisch land acht je zo achterlijk om de VS openlijk aan te vallen? En al helemaal niet om Gadaffi, die toch al niet zo geliefd is in de regio.
Ik ben blij dat het westen eindelijk eens nadenkt voor ze iets doen. Als Bush er nog had gezeten hadden we nu wss een groter probleem gehad.
quote:
Lol, VS die eventueel een nieuw olierijk gebied binnenvalt en je denkt dat het niet onrustig wordt? Gadaffi is redelijk goede vrienden met Syrie. Syrie is een boezemvriend van Iran. Ik kan zo 4 organisaties noemen die amerikaanse doelen kunnen aanvallen in de gehele regio. En wat gaan de Amerikanen doen mocht het gebeuren?? Het Midden-Oosten aanvallen?? Je overschat de VS wel heel erg als je denkt dat ze dat kunnen.
Ik ben blij dat het westen eindelijk eens nadenkt voor ze iets doen. Als Bush er nog had gezeten hadden we nu wss een groter probleem gehad.
Je bent nog serieus ook. Zelfs met Saddam, die veel betere contacten onderhield met de Arabische wereld, durfde geen enkel Arabisch land ermee te bemoeien.Meest invloedrijke Arabische land in de regio: SA, ziet Gadaffi liever zo snel mogelijk de pijp uitgaan.
Daar kan ik het in ieder geval wel mee eens zijn.quote:
[..]
Als Bush er nog had gezeten hadden we nu wss een groter probleem gehad.
Wat gewoon is voor de spin, is chaos voor de vlieg.
Saddam was de meest gehate man in het Midden-Oosten en werd door vele leiders zelfs niet als een moslim beschouwd. Als je het niet geloofd, zoek het anders even op.quote:Op woensdag 2 maart 2011 21:02 schreef ChristianLebaneseFront het volgende:
[..]
Meest invloedrijke Arabische land in de regio: SA, ziet Gadaffi liever zo snel mogelijk de pijp uitgaan.
Wil ik best geloven en ik heb bij Gaddafi ook vermoedens. Tariq Aziz was ook een Christen als politicus onder Saddam.quote:
[..]
Saddam was de meest gehate man in het Midden-Oosten en werd door vele leiders zelfs niet als een moslim beschouwd. Als je het niet geloofd, zoek het anders even op.
Denk niet zozeer dat militair gezien een land of Arabische lanen de VS aankunnen, maar een grondoorlog in Libi, die tijd is voorbij. De rol van de VS is zwakker geworden, niet zozeer miltiair gezien maar hun krediet is veel minder geworden.
Er is echter n land waar Amerika het heel moeilijk krijgt of zelfs verliest mocht het een grondoorlog worden, en dat is Iran.
Teheran kan binnen een paar dagen plat, maar dat zal niet geacccepteerd worden door de wereld. Bovendien hebben Amerikanen en de gehele Westerse wereld Iran nogal hoog zitten en dan met name de ontwikkelde bevolking en cultuur. Er wonen ook veel Perzen in de VS.
Een grondoorlog tegen Iran zal een farce worden voor de VS. Iran overleefde in de Iran-Irak-oorlog immers ook tegen de Irakezen die steun hadden van de VS en de Arabische wereld.
Libyan no-fly zone would be risky, provocative
CNN) -- After days of unrest in Libya, U.S. officials say a no-fly zone is an option for pushing Moammar Gadhafi from power and preventing bloodshed in toppling the regime.
But the use of no-fly zones is rife with danger for both sides, foreign experts say, and instituting one in Libya would raise the geopolitical stakes.
A no-fly zone is the aerial equivalent of a line in the sand. Violators, whether they are civilian aircraft or fighter jets, can get shot at.
A member of the U.N. Security Council who spoke on background told CNN that while there has been no formal discussion of a no-fly zone, there have been informal discussions outside of meetings, and "informal planning" is going on at NATO for such a scenario.
The diplomat said that if the Security Council discovers evidence that Gadhafi is using his air forces to kill or bomb civilians, fly in mercenaries or impede humanitarian assistance, it would be prepared to consider a no-fly zone.
Secretary of Defense Robert Gates warned Congress on Wednesday that any effort to create a no-fly zone in Libya would have to begin with an attack on the country.
"If ordered, we can do it," Gates said in answer to a question during a House Appropriations Committee hearing on the Pentagon's 2012 budget. But he warned that imposing such a zone would have to begin with an attack on Libya's anti-aircraft capability.
While testifying on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, Gates and Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen said they had no confirmation of reports of aircraft controlled by Gadhafi firing on citizens, which has been an argument for enforcing a no-fly zone over the country.
But CNN's Ben Wedeman reported Wednesday that he had seen an aircraft drop bombs on civilians near the coastal city of Brega.
In a rare bit of bipartisanship in Washington, the Senate on Tuesday unanimously passed a nonbinding resolution calling for the Security Council to impose a no-fly zone over the country.
Sen. John Kerry, D-Massachusetts, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Wednesday that the international community "cannot be on the sidelines while airplanes are being allowed to bomb and strafe.
"A no-fly zone is not a long-term proposition, assuming the outcome is what all desire, and I believe that we ought to be ready to implement it as necessary."
U.S. officials say all military and diplomatic options are on the table, but Gates and Mullen told the hearing that pursuing a forced grounding of Libyan aircraft is complicated and risky.
One Western diplomat, leaving a Security Council meeting on Wednesday, said that a no-fly zone over Libya would be "extremely difficult to implement -- you need airports, hundreds of planes. It is an act of war, and you have to bear the consequences."
Such a move could risk the ire of Libya's Muslim and Arab neighbors and inflame already prickly relations with Security Council members Russia and China, experts say. Worse, such a provocative move could be perceived by Gadhafi's regime as a declaration of war.
"The worst-case scenario may not be horrible, but we have seen that the costs of perceived military unilateralism in the Arab world are high," said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution who specializes in national security and defense issues.
While the U.S. response has been diplomatic so far, a no-fly zone could cause things to escalate in a hurry: After the first Gulf War, the United States, with U.N. support, established a no-fly zone over southern Iraq in 1992 after reports that Saddam Hussein had used violence against Iraqis, specifically Kurds and Shiites. In the following years, Hussein's air forces openly challenged the zone, resulting in skirmishes and an air of brinkmanship that didn't end, fully, until 2003's Operation Iraqi Freedom.
And without the ground support that coalition forces had in the Gulf War, foreign policy experts are split on how effective a no-fly zone would be.
But one thing they all agree on: A no-fly zone could touch off a wider conflagration.
"There would be happiness by some that the U.S. and Europe are standing by them," said Steve Clemons, director of the American Strategy Program of the New America Foundation. "But a lot more will be skeptical. There is an institutional skepticism by anything from the West. Some will resent the perception of force robbing the Libyans of their own moment," he said.
Clinton told a congressional hearing Wednesday that is a consideration in how the U.S. is approaching the crisis.
"We are also very conscious of the desire by the Libyan opposition forces that they be seen doing this by themselves, on behalf of the Libyan people; that there not be outside intervention by an external force, because they want this to have been their accomplishment. We respect that," she said.
But she also said that the U.S. is taking steps with NATO allies to be prepared if action is necessary.
"One of those actions that is under review is a no-fly zone. There are arguments that would favor it, questions that would be raised about it, but it is under active consideration," she said.
How would other Security Council members react to a U.S.-instigated no-fly zone?
"China and Russia have been surprisingly supportive of actions in the Security Council over the weekend," said Jamie Fly, executive director of the Foreign Policy Initiative.
But Russia rejects the idea of a no-fly zone over Libya, and China usually opposes foreign intervention.
Clemons and Fly emphasized that international consensus could be difficult to come by.
"The price of China's support will be rather high," said Clemons, of the New America Foundation. "China has had its own Tiananmen Square and is sensitive to governments trying to quell disturbances. Its message [to foreign involvement] has always been 'Stay out,' " Clemons said.
"There's a lot of skepticism on whether China or Russia would support such an action [a no-fly zone], but the preferred option would be for NATO to act like it did in Kosovo," Fly said.
In 1993, NATO forces enforced a no-fly zone over Bosnia in response to hostilities in an area that covered about 51,000 square miles. Libya, at 700,000 square miles, would be a much larger task.
Logistical issues posed by Libya's location could be overcome, said O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution. "Because Libya's cities are near the coast or on it, [the United States] could use aircraft carriers as well as bases in Italy, assuming Italy goes along, or Greece," he said.
Italy could well go along. The eastern coastal area of Libya, called Cyrenaica, was once an Italian colony. Bad feelings remain after Gadhafi expelled thousands of Italians shortly after coming to power.
Despite saying earlier that all options were on the table, the Obama administration on Tuesday signaled a cautious approach to any intervention that could be construed as military.
But casting U.N. support aside, the temptation for the United States to aid a people determined to free themselves from the societal restraints of an unpopular dictator may be too much to withstand, experts say.
The imagery of a NATO-backed aircraft swooping through the Tripoli skies may be just the moral boost the Libyan rebels need to topple the regime, said Thomas Donnelly, director of the American Enterprise Institute's Center for Defense Studies.
"Simply buzzing the Gadhafi palace would send a psychological message both to Gadhafi himself ... [and] to the revolutionaries in Libya," Donnelly said.
"It would dispirit the regime and would at least let the rebellion know the U.S. and Europeans are on their side and just over the horizon."
CNN) -- After days of unrest in Libya, U.S. officials say a no-fly zone is an option for pushing Moammar Gadhafi from power and preventing bloodshed in toppling the regime.
But the use of no-fly zones is rife with danger for both sides, foreign experts say, and instituting one in Libya would raise the geopolitical stakes.
A no-fly zone is the aerial equivalent of a line in the sand. Violators, whether they are civilian aircraft or fighter jets, can get shot at.
A member of the U.N. Security Council who spoke on background told CNN that while there has been no formal discussion of a no-fly zone, there have been informal discussions outside of meetings, and "informal planning" is going on at NATO for such a scenario.
The diplomat said that if the Security Council discovers evidence that Gadhafi is using his air forces to kill or bomb civilians, fly in mercenaries or impede humanitarian assistance, it would be prepared to consider a no-fly zone.
Secretary of Defense Robert Gates warned Congress on Wednesday that any effort to create a no-fly zone in Libya would have to begin with an attack on the country.
"If ordered, we can do it," Gates said in answer to a question during a House Appropriations Committee hearing on the Pentagon's 2012 budget. But he warned that imposing such a zone would have to begin with an attack on Libya's anti-aircraft capability.
While testifying on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, Gates and Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen said they had no confirmation of reports of aircraft controlled by Gadhafi firing on citizens, which has been an argument for enforcing a no-fly zone over the country.
But CNN's Ben Wedeman reported Wednesday that he had seen an aircraft drop bombs on civilians near the coastal city of Brega.
In a rare bit of bipartisanship in Washington, the Senate on Tuesday unanimously passed a nonbinding resolution calling for the Security Council to impose a no-fly zone over the country.
Sen. John Kerry, D-Massachusetts, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Wednesday that the international community "cannot be on the sidelines while airplanes are being allowed to bomb and strafe.
"A no-fly zone is not a long-term proposition, assuming the outcome is what all desire, and I believe that we ought to be ready to implement it as necessary."
U.S. officials say all military and diplomatic options are on the table, but Gates and Mullen told the hearing that pursuing a forced grounding of Libyan aircraft is complicated and risky.
One Western diplomat, leaving a Security Council meeting on Wednesday, said that a no-fly zone over Libya would be "extremely difficult to implement -- you need airports, hundreds of planes. It is an act of war, and you have to bear the consequences."
Such a move could risk the ire of Libya's Muslim and Arab neighbors and inflame already prickly relations with Security Council members Russia and China, experts say. Worse, such a provocative move could be perceived by Gadhafi's regime as a declaration of war.
"The worst-case scenario may not be horrible, but we have seen that the costs of perceived military unilateralism in the Arab world are high," said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution who specializes in national security and defense issues.
While the U.S. response has been diplomatic so far, a no-fly zone could cause things to escalate in a hurry: After the first Gulf War, the United States, with U.N. support, established a no-fly zone over southern Iraq in 1992 after reports that Saddam Hussein had used violence against Iraqis, specifically Kurds and Shiites. In the following years, Hussein's air forces openly challenged the zone, resulting in skirmishes and an air of brinkmanship that didn't end, fully, until 2003's Operation Iraqi Freedom.
And without the ground support that coalition forces had in the Gulf War, foreign policy experts are split on how effective a no-fly zone would be.
But one thing they all agree on: A no-fly zone could touch off a wider conflagration.
"There would be happiness by some that the U.S. and Europe are standing by them," said Steve Clemons, director of the American Strategy Program of the New America Foundation. "But a lot more will be skeptical. There is an institutional skepticism by anything from the West. Some will resent the perception of force robbing the Libyans of their own moment," he said.
Clinton told a congressional hearing Wednesday that is a consideration in how the U.S. is approaching the crisis.
"We are also very conscious of the desire by the Libyan opposition forces that they be seen doing this by themselves, on behalf of the Libyan people; that there not be outside intervention by an external force, because they want this to have been their accomplishment. We respect that," she said.
But she also said that the U.S. is taking steps with NATO allies to be prepared if action is necessary.
"One of those actions that is under review is a no-fly zone. There are arguments that would favor it, questions that would be raised about it, but it is under active consideration," she said.
How would other Security Council members react to a U.S.-instigated no-fly zone?
"China and Russia have been surprisingly supportive of actions in the Security Council over the weekend," said Jamie Fly, executive director of the Foreign Policy Initiative.
But Russia rejects the idea of a no-fly zone over Libya, and China usually opposes foreign intervention.
Clemons and Fly emphasized that international consensus could be difficult to come by.
"The price of China's support will be rather high," said Clemons, of the New America Foundation. "China has had its own Tiananmen Square and is sensitive to governments trying to quell disturbances. Its message [to foreign involvement] has always been 'Stay out,' " Clemons said.
"There's a lot of skepticism on whether China or Russia would support such an action [a no-fly zone], but the preferred option would be for NATO to act like it did in Kosovo," Fly said.
In 1993, NATO forces enforced a no-fly zone over Bosnia in response to hostilities in an area that covered about 51,000 square miles. Libya, at 700,000 square miles, would be a much larger task.
Logistical issues posed by Libya's location could be overcome, said O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution. "Because Libya's cities are near the coast or on it, [the United States] could use aircraft carriers as well as bases in Italy, assuming Italy goes along, or Greece," he said.
Italy could well go along. The eastern coastal area of Libya, called Cyrenaica, was once an Italian colony. Bad feelings remain after Gadhafi expelled thousands of Italians shortly after coming to power.
Despite saying earlier that all options were on the table, the Obama administration on Tuesday signaled a cautious approach to any intervention that could be construed as military.
But casting U.N. support aside, the temptation for the United States to aid a people determined to free themselves from the societal restraints of an unpopular dictator may be too much to withstand, experts say.
The imagery of a NATO-backed aircraft swooping through the Tripoli skies may be just the moral boost the Libyan rebels need to topple the regime, said Thomas Donnelly, director of the American Enterprise Institute's Center for Defense Studies.
"Simply buzzing the Gadhafi palace would send a psychological message both to Gadhafi himself ... [and] to the revolutionaries in Libya," Donnelly said.
"It would dispirit the regime and would at least let the rebellion know the U.S. and Europeans are on their side and just over the horizon."
Saddam heeft Allahu Akbar op de Irakeese vlag laten zetten omdat hij hoopte dat er dan minder verbrand zouden worden. Hij was idd niet zo geliefd.quote:
[..]
Saddam was de meest gehate man in het Midden-Oosten en werd door vele leiders zelfs niet als een moslim beschouwd. Als je het niet geloofd, zoek het anders even op.
evanchill
We were told the attack on Brega consisted of around six jeeps with troops firing pretty much indiscriminately inside Brega University.
We were told the attack on Brega consisted of around six jeeps with troops firing pretty much indiscriminately inside Brega University.
Zoon van Tolmai.
Vergeet die NFZ , er zijn geruchten dat er wel undercover operaties uitgevoerd kunnen worden (engeland heeft dat al gedaan)
There is only one religion
LibyaFeb17_com
BREAKING: Aircrafts filled with American dollars leave Miteega Air Base - #feb17 #libya - http://t.co/p5rNVy3
??
BREAKING: Aircrafts filled with American dollars leave Miteega Air Base - #feb17 #libya - http://t.co/p5rNVy3
??
Zoon van Tolmai.
Als ze die nu even neerschieten, dan maken ze een hoop mensen op de grond blijquote:
LibyaFeb17_com
BREAKING: Aircrafts filled with American dollars leave Miteega Air Base - #feb17 #libya - http://t.co/p5rNVy3
??
Reliable sources have reported to Almanara Media that a number of aircrafts took off from Miteega Air Base today and last night piloted by Algerian captains to unknown destinations. These aircrafts were reported to be carrying containers filled with dollar notes and with no passengers onboard.
There is only one religion
En ik dacht als die nou eens mijn kant op vloogquote:
[..]
Als ze die nu even neerschieten, dan maken ze een hoop mensen op de grond blij
Maargoed, wel een vreemd verhaal.
Hoe lekt zoiets nou uit?
Ik heb er m'n twijfels bij.
