[Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #25

h1. Mattheus 6:9

*Vers. 9-13. *_The pattern of prayer. _Parallel passage: [[42.11.2-4|Luk 11:2-4]]. For most suggestive remarks on the Lord"s Prayer, both generally and in its greater difficulties of detail, compare by all means Chase, "The Lord"s Prayer in the Early Church:" (Cambridge Texts and Studies).

Observe:

*(1)* If the prayer had already been given by the Lord in the sermon on the mount, "one of his disciples" would hardly afterwards have asked him to teach them to pray, as John also taught his disciples. _([[42.11.50|Luk 11:50]]__)_ It is much more easy, therefore, to consider that the original occasion of its utterance is recorded by St. Luke, and that it therefore did not belong to the sermon on the mount as that discourse was originally delivered.

*(2)* A question that admits of a more doubtful answer is whether the more original form of the prayer is found in Matthew or in Luke. It will be remembered that in the true text of his Gospel, the latter does not record the words, "Which art in heaven," "Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth," "But deliver us from evil," besides reading "day by day" instead of "this day," "sins" instead of "debts," and "for we ourselves also forgive every one that is indebted to us" instead of" as we also have forgiven our debtors." Most writers suppose St. Matthew"s form to be the original, and St. Luke"s to be only a shortened form. In favour of this are the considerations that

*(a)* St. Matthew"s words, "Forgive us our debts," represent an older, because parabolic, form of expression than the apparently interpretative "Forgive us our sins" in St. Luke.

*(b)* St. Matthew"s words, "as we also," seem to be expanded into "for we ourselves also," in St. Luke.

*(c)* St. Luke"s "day by day" occurs elsewhere in the New Testament only in his writings, _([[42.19.47|Luk 19:47]]__ [[44.17.11|Act 17:11]] (refs2)__)_ so that it is likely to be his own phrase, and therefore less original than St. Matthew"s "this day" (cf. Weiss, "Matthiaus-Ev.," and Page, _Expositor_, III 7:436). On the ether hand, the words, "Which art in heaven," are so characteristic of St. Matthew, _([[40.10.32|Mat 10:32]]__, [[40.10.33|Mat 10:33]]__; cf. [[40.12.50|Mat 12:50]]__ [[40.15.13|Mat 15:13]]__ [[40.18.10|Mat 18:10]] (refs3)__, [[40.18.14|Mat 18:14]]__, [[40.18.19|Mat 18:19]]__, 35 23:9)_ and especially of the sermon on the mount, _([[40.5.16|Mat 5:16]]__ [[40.6.1|Mat 6:1]]__ [[40.7.11|Mat 7:11]] (refs3)__, 21__ 5__:45, 48 6__:14, 26__, 32)_ that it seems more natural to suppose that this clause at least was added by him or by the authors of his sources to the original form, rather than that it was omitted by St. Luke. In connexion with this it may be pointed out how easy it was for our Lord to say only "Father" _([[42.11.2|Luk 11:2]]__)_ immediately after his own prayer to him. _([[42.11.1|Luk 11:1]]__) _

Taking everything into consideration, it seems reasonable to arrive at two conclusions. First, that the form in Luke presents, _as a whole_, the more primitive and original instruction of the Lord, and that that given in Matthew presents the Lord"s words as fully developed, partly perhaps by himself directly, partly by his indirect guidance of Christian usage. St. Matthew"s Gospel would thus at once both show the effect and be the cause of the preference for the longer form in liturgical use. Secondly, and more exactly, that both the evangelists record the prayer after it had passed through some development in different parts of the Church, St. Matthew giving it a generally later stage, but preserving one or two clauses in an earlier and better form.

*After this manner therefore*. _Therefore_; in contrast to the heathen practice, and in the full confidence which you have in your almighty Father"s intuitive knowledge of your needs. _After this manner_ (outwv ). Not "in these words;" but he will most closely imitate the manner who most often reminds himself of it by using the words. *Pray ye*. "Ye" emphatic ye my disciples; ye the children of such a Father. *Our Father*. In English we just lack the power to keep, with a plural possessive pronoun (contrast "father mine"), the order of Christ"s words (Pater hmwn) which other languages possess (_Pater noster_; _Vater unser_). Christ places in the very forefront the primary importance of the recognition of spiritual relationship to God. There is no direct thought here of God as the All-Father in the modern and often deistic sense. Yet it is affirmed elsewhere in Scripture, _([[44.17.28|Act 17:28]]__; cf. [[42.15.21|Luk 15:21]]__)_ and spiritual relationship is perhaps only possible because of the natural relationship. _(cf. [[40.5.16|Mat 5:16]]__, note) Our. _Though the prayer is here given with special reference to praying alone (ver. 6), the believer is to be reminded at once that he is joined by spiritual relationship to many others who have the same needs, etc., as himself. *Which art in heaven* (o en toiv ouranoiv). Added in this fuller form of the prayer (_vide supra_), on the one hand to definitely exclude the application of the words however mediately to any human teacher, _(cf. [[40.23.9|Mat 23:9]]__)_ and on the other to remind those who pray of the awful majesty of him whom they address. "They are a _Sursum corda_; they remind us that now we have lifted up our hearts from earth and things earthly to another and a higher world" (Trench, "Sermon on the Mount"). *Hallowed be thy name*. The first of the three prayers for the furtherance of God"s cause. Their parallelism is seen much more clearly in the Greek than in the English order of the words. Thy name. We look on a name almost as an accidental appendage by which a person is designated, but in its true idea it is the designation of a person which exactly answers to his nature and qualities. Hence the full Name of God is properly that description of him which embraces all that he really is. As, however, the term "name" implies that it is expressed, it must, when it is used of God, be limited to that portion of his nature and qualities which can be expressed in human terms, because it has been already made known to us. The "name" of God, here and elsewhere in the Bible, therefore, does not mean God in his essence, but rather that manifestation of himself which he has been pleased to give, whether partial and preparatory as under the old covenant, _(cf. [[1.4.26|Gen 4:26]]__ [[1.16.13|Gen 16:13]]__ [[1.32.29|Gen 32:29]]__ [[2.6.3|Exo 6:3]]__ [[2.34.5|Exo 34:5]] (refs5)__)_ or final as under the new; _(cf. [[43.17.6|Joh 17:6]]__)_ or again (to take another division found in Exell"s "Biblical Illustrator," _in loc. _) the manifestation of himself through nature, through inspired words, through the Incarnation. Compared with the Glory (doxa) "the Name expresses the revelation as it is apprehended and used by man. Man is called by the Name, and employs it. The Glory expresses rather the manifestation of the Divine as Divine, as a partial disclosure of the Divine Majesty not directly intelligible by man". _(comp. [[2.33.18|Exo 33:18]]__, ft.) (Bishop Westcott," Add. Note" on [[64.1.7|3Jn 1:7]]__) Hallowed be_. Agiasyhtw cannot here, as sometimes, _([[66.22.11|Rev 22:11]]__; cf. [[43.17.17|Joh 17:17]]__ [[52.5.23|1Th 5:23]] (refs2)__)_ mean "be made holy," for this God"s manifestation of himself already is; but "be counted holy," _i.e. _in human judgment. The prayer is that God"s manifestation of himself may be acknowledged and revered as the one supreme standard of truth and the one means of knowing God and approaching him; of [[60.3.15|1Pe 3:15]], where agiazw obviously means "set apart, enshrined as the object of supreme, absolute reverence, as free from all defilement and possessed of all excellence (Johnstone, _in loc_.); cf. also [[23.29.23|Isa 29:23]]. The same thought appears to have been the basis of the early Western alternative petition. _(Marcion"s or Tertullian"s, vide Westcott and Herr, "App.,_ [[42.11.2|Luk 11:2]]) for the gift of the Holy Spirit; i.e. the address to the Father was followed by a prayer for purification by the Holy Spirit preparatory to the prayer, "Thy kingdom come." A man must accept God"s manifestation of himself before he can take part in the spread of the kingdom. Gregory of Nyssa (vide Westcott and Herr, _loc. cit_., and Resch, "Agrapha," p. 398) says distinctly, "Let thy Holy Spirit come upon us and purify us;" but he _substitutes_ this prayer for the words, "Thy kingdom come." (For the support afforded by this to the theory that the Lord"s Prayer circulated in a varying form, cf. Chase, _loc. cit_.) Gregory"s petition, as affecting only humanity, is less comprehensive than that found in our Gospels.

*Vers. 9-15. **_The Lord"s Prayer. _*

This is the model prayer. It is not simply one form of prayer intended to supersede all others, or to take its place among prayers of a different character. It is the type and pattern of all prayer. "After this manner therefore pray ye." Let us note its leading characteristics.

*I* IN FORM IT IS BRIEF, CLEAR, AND SIMPLE. This is offered in contrast to the vain repetitions of the heathen. It is not the length of a prayer, but the reality of it, that finds acceptance with God. He does not need to be urged with piteous entreaties, the frantic shrieks, leaping, and gashing with knives that the dervishes of Baal resorted to. He is close at hand; he is always ready to hear; he knows what we need. Some prayers are sermons preached to God. We have neither to inform God as though he were ignorant, nor to persuade him as though he were reluctant to help. We have simply to make him the confidant of our hearts" desires.

*II* IT IS ADDRESSED TO THE FATHERHOOD OF GOD. The "Pater noster" has its key-note struck in its two opening words.

*1. *_God"s fatherly nature. _The character of our prayer depends on our conception of God. Christ delighted to set before us the picture of God as our Father. Here is the basis of faith. All confidence is justified by this great face.

*2. *_Our relation to God. _He is not merely the "All-Father." He is "our Father;" this personal appropriation of God is necessary for the most real prayer.

*III* IT HONORS THE HOLINESS OF GOD. God loathes adulation, but he accepts adoration. High-sounding titles and elaborate ascriptions of praise mar the simplicity of genuine worship. It is enough to address God as "our Father." Still we must remember that he is in heaven. The familiarity of love must not forget the reverence due to holiness. The essence of prayer is worship.

*IV* IT SEEKS THE GLORY OF GOD. Thoughts of God come first that his Name may be treated with reverence; that his kingdom may come, his will be done. Many prayers are too narrow, selfish, and worldly. The model prayer fills our minds and hearts with large thoughts of God and his kingdom. If we have the Christian spirit in us, these thoughts will lie very near to our hearts; if that spirit is developed and enlarged, they will be predominant, so that we shall more eagerly wish for the coming of the kingdom and the doing of God"s will than for the satisfaction of our personal desires. But, alas! few of us have reached that standard.

*V* IT TRUSTS GOD"S DALLY CARE. Now we come down to the personal prayer. It begins with a most simple, universal want daily bread.

*1. *Bodily _food. _This comes from God, who makes the corn grow, and finds us the providential means of a livelihood. Christ recognizes the need of common earthly things; God supplies them.

*2. *_Necessaries. _Merely "bread.

*3. *_The moments need. _"Daily" bread. We can leave the morrow.

*VI* IT CONFESSES SIN AND ASKS FORGIVENESS. This is of universal application. The saint must confess sin as well as the sinner. This is of daily necessity. We sin daily. But this recognizes God"s forgiving grace to cover all sin. Yet it is conditioned by our forgiving spirit.

*VII* IT CRAVES DELIVERANCE FROM EVIL. If possible we would be spared temptation. If we must be tempted, we pray to be saved from the power of the evil one. Our Father is our great Deliverer. in view of darkest dangers we cry for his raving help. W.F.A.

*_As to the manner of prayer_*.

The occasion was one in which our Lord knew that the teaching of his lips would be best brought home to the mind by an example to illustrate his meaning. What a sequel that example of prayer has itself had! and what fruitfulness it has had in teaching the "manner of prayer"! This "manner" taught by our Lord gives us first a name, or title, by which to address God in prayer. In this notice

*I* THE GRACIOUS AUTHORITY IT GIVES TO THE CREATURE, AS SOON AS HE TURNS HIS HEART IN PRAYER TO GOD, TO CLAIM THE RELATIONSHIP OF GOD TO HIM AS THAT OF FATHER. In whatever way this relationship of God to man might be argued from the nature of things, _([[19.103.13|Psa 103:13]]__)_ or inferable from indirect permission in the teaching of God"s favoured and chosen people since Abraham, _([[23.63.16|Isa 63:16]]__)_ it is certain that, previously to this teaching of Christ himself, we read no direct authorization whatsoever of it. It is the gift of this prayer, therefore, that with this title we come "boldly to the throne of grace.

*II* THE LOVING AND HOPEFUL TONE OF SUPPLIANCY IT AUSPICIOUSLY AVAILS TO AWAKEN. The spirit of demand, the temper of dictation, the mutterings of discontent, the murmurings of impatience, are all held in willing, sure, sweet abeyance, when on bended knees we say, "Our Father." "How," we say rightly," will he not give to his sons, to whom first he has given this greatest gift, that they should be, and be called, sons!" And, again, how shall not we desire, in practice as in prayer, to comfort ourselves in harmony with our new-given relationship the Divine "adoption of sons"!

*III* THE HEALTHFUL, INSPIRITING, UNLIMITED, CATHOLICITY WHICH THE TWO WORDS "OUR FATHER" BETOKEN AND AUGUR. It speaks in all innocent trustfulness, instinctive _expectation_, grateful expanded prospect, of the vast family, of an ever-swelling brotherhood, of the one Father"s many-mansioned house. It strikes the keynote of the music of universal charity.

*IV* THE ELEVATED LEVEL TO WHICH OUR CONCEPTIONS OF THE DIVINE RELATIONSHIP ARE SO SILENTLY AND, AS IT WERE, SO UNSUSPECTINGLY DRAWN UP THE FATHER IN HEAVEN. HOW helpful to our hope and confidence, how salutary to our modesty and patience, how dignifying to all our spiritual tone and aspiration, to remember that this _Father_ is in heaven, while as yet we are at heaven"s footstool the earth! B.

*_The first petition_*.

The sentence in which this is contained cannot mean that God"s own holiness can be added to or its sanctity improved; but that we "give thanks at the remembrance" of it; pause to observe the very highest conceivable rendering of the fifth commandment; and help to teach others to pay all most solemn homage to his Name.

*I* THE PETITION IS AN INSTANCE AND EXPRESSION OF A MOST SIGNIFICANT ACT OF OUR REGENERATE NATURE, AKIN TO ITS VERY HIGHEST REACHES OF ACHIEVEMENT, WHEN, IRRESPECTIVE OF EVERYTHING ELSE, WE DESIRE THAT FIRST OF ALL GOD"S HOLY NAME BE HELD SACRED AND BE GLORIFIED.

*II* THE PETITION PURPORTS THE EXALTATION, IN MEN"S REVERENT REGARD, OF THAT NAME, SO GREAT, ADDRESSED AND APPEALED TO IN PRAYER. The petition beautifully embraces the deep wish that that Name may be ever growing in adored sacredness in the silent heart of the individual petitioner first, as well as further in and through all creation.

*III* THE PETITION MANIFESTLY POSTULATES SUCH SYMPATHY, HOWEVER ELEMENTARY, WITH THE HOLY NATURE OF THE FATHER, THAT ITS FULFILLING CANNOT FAIL TO BE ALSO A SURE FULFILLING OF GOOD TO HIM WHO PRAYS IT. It evidently proceeds on the ready and willing acknowledgment of the fact that the perfect holiness of the Father in heaven is the condition and the essential that lies at the very root of the welfare of the man who is praying, and of the vast universe. B.

*Vers. 9, 10. **_The Lord"s Prayer (part 1). _*

In the Gospel of Luke this prayer is given in still briefer form. The occasion there was that the disciples, after the Lord had prayed, said to him, "Lord teach us to pray, even as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, _say. _" Here, however, "After _this manner_ pray ye." The use _of forms _is sanctioned; so is _extemporary_ prayer. Better a _form_ of sound words" than no family worship. Consider

*I* THE ADDRESS TO GOD.

*1*. _It is a great truth that God is our.Father. _

*(1)* He is the Creator, not the Father, of his other works. Ethers; minerals; vegetables; animals. No kindredness of nature to God in these.

*(2)* He is the "Father of spirits." Every attribute of the human spirit is the image of a corresponding Divine attribute. Intellects; affections.

*(3)* Even the body of man was made after the similitude of the Lord. _(cf. [[1.1.26|Gen 1:26]]__ [[1.2.7|Gen 2:7]] (refs2)__)_ The body is the material image of the soul. When God revealed himself to man, his similitude was the appearance of a man. _(see [[26.1.26-28|Eze 1:26-28]]__) _

*2*. _This Divine title is proper to the gospel dispensation. _

*(1)* It is a notable fact that the title "Father" seldom occurs in Old Testament Scripture. Nowhere is God there invoked as a Father.

*(2)* There is a reason of propriety. The spirit of the Law _was fear. _The Law was given amidst horrors and alarms. Its rites imposed an oppressive burden.

*(3)* It is also a notable fact that the title "Father" is of frequent occurrence in the New Testament. It is the familiar title in Christian invocation. The Lord"s Prayer is the model for all Christian prayer.

*(4)* There is also a reason of propriety here. The spirit of the gospel is love. It is the spirit of sonship and liberty. This is all embodied in the mystery of the incarnation of the proper Son of God. _(see [[48.4.1-7|Gal 4:1-7]]__) _

*3*. _Note the plural_, OUR _Father. _

*(1)* The use of the singular is very sweet. It is suited sometimes to the closet. Sometimes to ejaculatory prayer.

*(2)* The plural recognizes the common Fatherhood of God. So the common brotherhood of man. Its use should cure war, strikes, domestic feuds.

*(3)* It recognizes brotherhood in Christ. He is every man"s Brother. _(cf. [[1.9.5|Gen 9:5]]__)_ The family of God is named after him. _(cf. [[49.3.14|Eph 3:14]]__, [[49.3.15|Eph 3:15]]__) _

*(4)* In its common use all the sons of God pray for each. This is better than each praying exclusively for himself. Better for _each_, better for _all. _

*4*. _Note the place of his residence. _

*(1)* God is in the mechanical heavens. He moves the spheres. He give the tides. So the seasons. The elements are his servants. His miracles evince his presence in nature. His providence in nature is constant. So he can make nature respond to prayer.

*(2)* He is in the supernal heaven. The heaven of heavens. The third heaven. The palace of angels. The place of vision.

*(3)* He that rules all heavens is our Father! What an honour! How superior should we be to the meanness of sin!

*II* THE ASCRIPTION OF PRAISE.

*1*. _The Name of God stands for himself. _

*(1)* It; represents his nature. _(cf. [[2.33.18|Exo 33:18]]__, 19 34:5-7__) _

*(2)* It is his Word. Christ is the Revealer of the Father. _(cf. [[2.23.20|Exo 23:20]]__, 21__ [[23.52.5|Isa 52:5]]__ [[43.1.18|Joh 1:18]]__ [[43.8.19|Joh 8:19]] (refs3)__ 1Ti 6__:1Ti [[54.2.5|1Ti 2:5]]__) _

*2*. _To hallow is to revere Gods Name. _

*(1)* "Father" is a title in which reverence, as well as love, is claimed. So it was understood by the sons of the prophets. So by Joash King of Israel. _(cf. [[12.2.12|2Ki 2:12]]__ [[12.6.21|2Ki 6:21]]__ [[12.13.14|2Ki 13:14]] (refs3)__) _

*(2)* Cheerful obedience is the true reverence of love. _(see [[40.23.9|Mat 23:9]]__) _

*(3)* To hallow the Name of the Father is to honour the Father in the Son. _(cf. [[43.5.22|Joh 5:22]]__, 23__ [[62.2.23|1Jn 2:23]]__) _

*3*. _The Name of the Father should be everywhere revered. _

*(1)* It is revered in heaven. _(cf. ver. 10; [[23.6.1-3|Isa 6:1-3]]__ [[66.4.8-11|Rev 4:8-11]] (refs2)__) _

*(2)* But is it so revered on earth? In the sanctuary it is revered. The Church is the kingdom of heaven upon earth. But in the world the sacred Name is horribly blasphemed.

*(3)* The blessed day is coming when the glory of the Lord will fill the earth as now it fills the heavens. Pray for this. Strive for this. J.A.M.

*_The dualities of the Lord"s Prayer_*.

Of this prayer Ward Beecher says, "One knows not which most to admire in this form its loftiness of spirit, its comprehensiveness, its brevity, its simplicity, or its union of human and Divine elements. All prayer may be said to have crystallized in this prayer. The Church has worn it for hundreds of years upon her bosom, as the brightest gem of devotion." Forms of devotion seem to have been provided by the ecclesiastical rulers. New forms had been given by John the Baptist. It was quite natural that our Lord"s disciples should ask either selections from existing forms, or new forms, of prayer from him. Teaching them the _spirit_ of prayer, they naturally asked him also to give them a suitable _form_ in which that spirit might find expression. Now notice the Hebraic form in which the prayer is set. It is a series of dual sentences, the second repeating the first, with some amplification, after the familiar style of Hebrew writing.

*I* THE FATHER-NAME. "Our Father." "Hallowed be thy _Father_ Name." In this new name for God may be found the very essence of the revelation Jesus brought. He taught "good news of God;" right thoughts of God. Everything else follows from that; for to know God is eternal life. How far was the Father-Name a new revelation? Certainly, as used by Christ, it carries a new meaning and force. What is hallowing a Father-Name? Showing the obedience and devotion of sons. Remember Jesus called God "Holy Father," "Righteous Father.

*II* THE KINGDOM OF THE WILL. "Thy kingdom come." "Thy will be done." These are plainly the same thing; for God"s kingdom must be the _rule_ of his will." A living, active will creates a kingdom. If God"s will were fully done, God"s kingdom would have come. A kingdom of _moral beings_; ruled by a supreme and holy will. To pray for the kingdom to come is to yield ourselves to the service of the will.

*III* GIVING AND FORGIVING. This part of the prayer concerns man"s necessities. Our Father in heaven is interested in our daily needs. "Give!" is the cry of the needy child. "Forgive!" is the cry of the _sinful_ child. Both attitudes are of supreme interest to our heavenly Father. "Bread" stands for all our _bodily _needs; "forgiveness" for all our _soul-needs. _

*IV* DEFENDED AND DELIVERED. Treating ourselves as frail and weak, and yet exposed to evil. "No one can tell beforehand how he will be affected by persistent, insidious, and vehement temptations. If it is a duty to avoid evil, it is surely permissible to solicit Divine help thereto." This]s the prayer of self-distrust and dependence. Compare "Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe. R.T.

hoatzin	donderdag 28 juli 2016 @ 20:27
	Originele OP: Game on. Welkom bij het Centrale topic over Bijbel en Christendom . Wat is de bedoeling van dit topic?: Discussiëren / vragen stellen over: - (de geschiedenis en de oorsprong van) het christendom - de verschillende stromingen - prominente christenen / theologen / godsdienstwetenschappers - de Bijbel, als ook de apocriefe geschriften - godsbeeld (hoe zie je God etc) Daarnaast zijn boekentips welkom, als ook interessante linkjes . Doe maar liever niet: - De bekende one-liners - Topic kapen Probeer een beetje respect op te brengen voor andermans denkwijze . Deel 1: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en christendom Deel 2: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en christendom # 2 Deel 3: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en christendom # 3 Deel 4: F&L / [centraal] Bijbel en christendom #4 Deel 5: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en christendom #5 Deel 6: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en christendom #6 Deel 7: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en christendom #7 Deel 8: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #8 Deel 9: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #9 Deel 10: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #10 Deel 11: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #11 Deel 12: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #12 Deel 13: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #13 Deel 14: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #14 Deel 15: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #15 Deel 16: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #16 Deel 17: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #17 ... Deel 21: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #21 Deel 22: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #22 Deel 23: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #23 Deel 24: F&L / [Centraal] Bijbel en Christendom #24 Links -Early Christian Writings: Teksten over het vroege christendom -Biblija.net: De bijbel in allerlei talen en vertalingen -CCEL.org: Teksten van de kerkvaders tot het concilie van Nicea -(Link naar discussie over (mogelijke) verwijzingen naar Jezus buiten de bijbel; als iemand een goede link heeft hoor ik dat graag) [ Bericht 1% gewijzigd door laforest op 28-07-2016 21:38:14 (Laatste deel toegevoegd) ]
hoatzin	donderdag 28 juli 2016 @ 20:29
	quote: Op donderdag 28 juli 2016 18:44 schreef Panterjong het volgende: [..] Ja, okee dat is zo. Hoe dan ook hij voelde zich door God verlaten. God was niet langer aanwezig in het leven van de gekruisigde. Vanuit die gedachte kwam ik erop. "Als" hij dat gezegd heeft. De schrijver was er niet bij en de kruiswoorden verschillen nogal per evangelie.
ATON	donderdag 28 juli 2016 @ 20:55
	quote: Op donderdag 28 juli 2016 20:29 schreef hoatzin het volgende: [..] "Als" hij dat gezegd heeft. De schrijver was er niet bij en de kruiswoorden verschillen nogal per evangelie. In ' Live of Brian ' kunnen de gekruisigden nog zingen, maar in realiteit was zelfs spreken omzeggens onmogelijk gezien het slachtoffer door verstikking ( longoedeem ) om het leven kwam.
#ANONIEM	zaterdag 30 juli 2016 @ 01:51
	quote: Op donderdag 28 juli 2016 20:55 schreef ATON het volgende: [..] In ' Live of Brian ' kunnen de gekruisigden nog zingen, maar in realiteit was zelfs spreken omzeggens onmogelijk gezien het slachtoffer door verstikking ( longoedeem ) om het leven kwam. BIGGUS DICKUS!!!
de_tevreden_atheist	zaterdag 30 juli 2016 @ 10:45
	quote: Op donderdag 28 juli 2016 20:29 schreef hoatzin het volgende: [..] "Als" hij dat gezegd heeft. De schrijver was er niet bij en de kruiswoorden verschillen nogal per evangelie. Het is dus eigenlijk een kruiswoordraadsel.
Hilarius	zaterdag 30 juli 2016 @ 19:20
	quote: Op woensdag 27 juli 2016 19:35 schreef hoatzin het volgende: [..] Dat is het wel. De geschiedenis van die landstreek is goed beschreven door de Egyptenaren en Assyriërs. Palestina is lange tijd een Egyptische provincie geweest. Zo hebben de koninkrijken van David en Salomo niet bestaan zoals beschreven in het OT. Uitgesloten. Verdiep je eens in het ontstaan van de bijbel. Er zal een wereld voor je opengaan. Hoatzin, we gaan ieder onze eigen weg. Aan het einde van de rit zal blijken wie de juiste keuze heeft gemaakt.
ATON	zaterdag 30 juli 2016 @ 19:51
	quote: Op zaterdag 30 juli 2016 19:20 schreef Hilarius het volgende: [..] Hoatzin, we gaan ieder onze eigen weg. Aan het einde van de rit zal blijken wie de juiste keuze heeft gemaakt. Nog zo'n dooddoener.
hoatzin	zondag 31 juli 2016 @ 00:23
	quote: Op zaterdag 30 juli 2016 19:20 schreef Hilarius het volgende: [..] Hoatzin, we gaan ieder onze eigen weg. Aan het einde van de rit zal blijken wie de juiste keuze heeft gemaakt. Jammer dat je hier verder geen antwoord op hebt of geeft.
possetje	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 03:09
	Hoi dit is een copie van de Bijbel, een stukje daarvan, klopt dit? Genesis 6:1-4 vertelt ons: “En het gebeurde, toen de mensen zich op de aardbodem begonnen te vermenigvuldigen en er dochters bij hen geboren werden, dat Gods zonen de dochters van de mensen zagen dat zij mooi waren, en zij namen zich vrouwen uit allen die zij uitgekozen hadden. Toen zei de HEERE: Mijn Geest zal niet voor eeuwig met de mens twisten, omdat ook hij vlees is, maar zijn dagen zullen honderdtwintig jaar zijn. In die dagen, en ook daarna, waren er reuzen op de aarde, toen Gods zonen bij de dochters van de mensen waren gekomen en die kinderen voor hen baarden; dit zijn de geweldenaars van oude tijden af, mannen van naam. ” Er zijn verschillende mogelijkheden geopperd over de vraag wie die zonen van God waren en waarom de kinderen die zij hadden met de dochters van de mensen uitgroeiden tot een ras van reuzen (het hier gebruikte woord “Nephilim” lijkt op giganten of reuzen te duiden). ? Dus dan zouden er ook nu nog godenkinderen op deze planeet leven? [ Bericht 2% gewijzigd door possetje op 12-08-2016 03:23:45 ]
SpecialK	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 04:32
	Jij verwacht waarheid in de bijbel? De bijbel (het OT) is een collectie gestolen sprookjesverhalen herschreven als monotheïstisch boek om de polytheïstische landen Judah en Israel op politiek niveau te verenigen tegen o.a. de Babyloniers. De bedoeling is gehoorzaamheid aan de oorlogsgod YHWH door het joodse volk. Niet de overlevering van goddelijke wijsheid aan de gehele mensheid.
possetje	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 04:36
	quote: Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 04:32 schreef SpecialK het volgende: Jij verwacht waarheid in de bijbel? De bijbel (het OT) is een collectie gestolen sprookjesverhalen herschreven als monotheïstisch boek om de polytheïstische landen Judah en Israel op politiek niveau te verenigen tegen o.a. de Babyloniers. De bedoeling is gehoorzaamheid aan de oorlogsgod YHWH dior het joodse volk. Niet de overlevering van goddelijke wijsheid aan de gehele mensheid. Is toch zo dat Judas die Jezus heeft veraden , verwijst toch naar Joods?
SpecialK	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 04:38
	quote: Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 04:36 schreef possetje het volgende: [..] Is toch zo dat Judas die Jezus heeft veraden , verwijst toch naar Joods? Wat heeft dit met ook naar iets te maken?
possetje	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 04:39
	quote: Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 04:38 schreef SpecialK het volgende: [..] Wat heeft dit met ook naar iets te maken? Als jij het niet weet weet ik het ook niet.
SpecialK	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 04:41
	quote: Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 04:39 schreef possetje het volgende: [..] Als jij het niet weet weet ik het ook niet. Jij hebt het over Genesis in je OP. Ik heb het over het gehele OT. Nu kom je ineens met iets aanzetten van het NT. Waarom reageer je niet gewoon op wat ik zeg?
possetje	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 04:43
	quote: Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 04:41 schreef SpecialK het volgende: Jij hebt het over Genesis in je OP. Ik heb het over het gehele OT. Nu kom je ineens met iets aanzetten van het NT. Waarom reageer je niet gewoon op wat ik zeg? Owww op die manier, nee zoveel verstand van de Bijbel heb ik ook niet
KaBuf	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 06:36
	We zijn toch allemaal kinderen van God.
Woelwater	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 06:38
	quote: Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 06:36 schreef KaBuf het volgende: We zijn toch allemaal kinderen van God. Alleen niet van dezelfde god
possetje	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 06:39
	quote: Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 06:36 schreef KaBuf het volgende: We zijn toch allemaal kinderen van God. ja haha op zich wel alleen besnijd de een babies door een boek en de ander niet,, haha, maar tsja,,,
Resistor	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 07:05
	Eerste 3 generaties na Adam en Eva zijn ook wel interessant om over na te denken. Net als de mensen die op de Ark van Noach zaten. Ik zie Adam en Eva meer als de eerste gelovigen, er waren wel meer mensen, maar dat waren heidenen, en daar hebben de kinderen van Adam en Eva zich mee voortgeplant (na bekering)
vaarsuvius	vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 @ 09:41
	quote: Op vrijdag 12 augustus 2016 07:05 schreef Resistor het volgende: Ik zie Adam en Eva meer als de eerste gelovigen, er waren wel meer mensen, maar dat waren heidenen, en daar hebben de kinderen van Adam en Eva zich mee voortgeplant (na bekering) Adam Sandler en Eva Jinek? Ik wist niet dat die samen kinderen hadden..... AL heb ik wel begrepen dat Eva nogal rap door haar mannen gaat, dus wellicht heb ik iets gemist.