Palestina en Israel #124 Waar iedereen hoopt op vrede

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 15:14 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Dit betreft niet waar ik mee bekend ben, dit betreft waar jij bekend mee bent, en als jij erkent niet op de hoogte te zijn van wat er zich allemaal binnen het zionisme bevindt, van oorsprong tot heden en wellicht verder, dan vraag ik me af wat je in deze discussie te zoeken hebt.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 15:27 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Denk wat je wilt, maar als jij het fout vindt om mijn steun voor 'veiligheid en autonomie voor Joden' te veroordelen immers je stelt dat het daarop neerkomt en af te doen als Zionisme-fanclub, dan ben je dus niet goed wijs.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 15:32 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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In jouw geval, klopt, maar niet zo gek he nadat je op domme onzinnige wijze Israel met kanker vergelijkt en de Armeense genocide ook al eens eerder hebt ontkend, leg eens uit waarom ik iemand met dergelijke flauwekul, serieus zou moeten nemen.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 15:44 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Ik vind het inderdaad oprecht raar dat jij Israel vergelijk met kanker en als je die onzin roept, om dat aan te vullen met hoe belangrijk een serieuze discussie is, dan neem ik je niet serieus en ieder ander ook niet, dat je je stoort aan het een of ander is je goed recht en daar kan ook normaal over worden gepraat, maar de bewoordingen die jij hebt gebruikt hadden slechts een doel, choqueren, en daar los je toch niet veel mee op.

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Wat betreft de Armenen, ik weet wat jij hebt gezegd, je werd emotioneel, je ging op de negeertour, maar het kwam er op neer dat je vond dat er geen bewijs is voor een genocide, daar kom ik op terug omdat ik het een bewering vind die onwetendheid en naïviteit onderstreept.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 15:59 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Als je niet begrijpt dat je met die onzin choqueert, heeft het ook geen zin om het er verder over te hebben, je kan niet simpelweg geen serieuze discussie aan met iemand die zulke bewoordingen in z'n mond neemt over wie dan ook dat lijkt me duidelijk.

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Ik denk dat je zelf eens moet teruglezen en moet zien waarom je wegliep , ik was trouwens niet de enige in de discussie, als ik me niet vergis was Titus Pullo je ook aardig aan het ondervragen waarom je de genocide aan het ontkennen bent.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 16:09 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Kennelijk houd je je daar wel mee bezig, maar ook al beweer je dat het je weinig interesseert, wil je ooit een serieuze discussie aangaan dan kan je simpelweg niet met dat soort onzin aankomen, het doet jou wellicht weinig, maar het getuigt niet echt van een constructieve houding wat betreft de voorgang van het gesprek waar jij je in bevindt.

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Het was duidelijk, jij onttrok jezelf vervolgens aan de discussie, wat je daarmee wilt moet je zelf maar uitzoeken dat je nu terugkomt op je fouten kan je ook anders duidelijk maken lijkt me zo.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 16:44 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Wat betreft die onzinnige opmerkingen ben je toch al eens op je vingers getikt .

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Haha, bewijs, is je geheugen zo slecht, kom op zeg, wie probeer je voor de gek te houden te treurig voor woorden zo.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 16:55 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Wel degelijk, maar ik denk dat we weer klaar zijn op deze manier, vermoeiend.

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Ik ga me niet verlagen tot jouw niveau .

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Ik heb nergens gezegd dat het wel of geen genocide is, ik zie het zelfs volgens mijn eerdere berichten op 3,5 punten overeenkomen met definities gegeven door bijdehand, ik zit dus dichter bij een wel genocide oordeel, dan een niet. Ik heb het over het doelbewust willen uitmoorden.

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Ik ben het met je eens dat het gezien je gegeven definitie het meer in de buurt van een genocide ligt dan, niet, dat gezegd hebbende, stelt Turkije weer dat er 500.000 moslims zijn vermoord in het rijk gedurende de oorlog, dat werpt een ander licht op met name hoe het zover heeft kunnen komen dat er zoveel doden zijn gevallen, let wel, dit is geenszins een rechtvaardiging of een verklaring, maar het geeft wel aan dat er haat is ontstaan tussen beide volkeren, ik zou het zien als een strategische blunder wat heeft geleid tot een genocide en niet een staatsbeleid van uitmoorden wat vervolgens heeft geleid tot een genocide, dat is de nuance die ik wil maken.

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Ik erken het zelfs als genocide zoals het voorkomt in bijdehands geplaatste definitie, waar ik me tegen verzet zijn nietszeggende oneliners wat een discussie vermijden.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 19:26 schreef Rosario het volgende:

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Het lijkt me dat DeParo een punt wil maken wat betreft de geloofwaardigheid van degene met wie hij discussieert. Dat hij de Armeense genocide ontkent en bepaalde staten als 'kanker' omschrijft zijn wat dat betreft goede argumenten.

Dat het op de man spelen is en niets met Palestina/Israël te maken heeft, is een tweede.

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The fundamental messages from the World War 2 Jewish Holocaust (6 million victims, 1 in 6 dying from deprivation) and the WW2 Holocaust in general (30 million Slav, Jewish and Roma dead) are "zero tolerance for racism" and "never again to anyone".

These sacred messages from the WW2 Holocaust have been monstrously violated by Apartheid Israel, its Anglo-American backers and its racist Zionist (RZ) supporters for 60 years as summarized below.

1. There are now 7 million Palestinian refugees (4.3 million registered with the UNHCR); 85% of Christian Palestinians have fled.

2. 1.5 million Palestinian Israelis live under race-based Apartheid laws (Nazi- and Apartheid-style compulsory race-based ID at all times; race-based marriage prohibition laws; race-based discrimination over property acquisition, property rights, social participation, travel in their own country and family reunion).

3. 4 million Occupied Palestinians are held as prisoners in increasingly abusive conditions in what outstanding Jewish American scholar Professor Noam Chomsky of the 63-Nobel-Laureate MIT describes as a "Prison" (they are held without charge or trial in effectively several major Concentration Camps - Gaza, Samaria and Judaea; their capital city has been stolen and violated together with the Third most Sacred site in Islam).

4. Post-invasion excess deaths (violent and non-violent avoidable deaths from bombs or bullets or deprivation, respectively; deaths that did not have to happen) now total 0.3 million and post-invasion under-5 infant deaths total 0.2 million.

5. Annual Occupied Palestinian avoidable under-5 infant deaths total 2,400; annual violent deaths total about 800 (20% children); annual excess deaths total 5,000 - deaths in custody at the hands of a racist, Apartheid regime.

6. It has cost the American taxpayer about $3 trillion (see: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/223... ) plus a further $3.5 trillion accrual cost of the racist Zionist-backed War on Terror (see: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/223... ).

This racist, genocidal horror was inevitable from the outset in the late 19th century when the Zionists set out a "me too" program of racist colonization to mimic what Western Europeans were already doing on every continent - the Americas (genocide of the Indigenous Indians in Canada, the US, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay); horrendous racist colonization and mass murder in West Africa, East Africa and Southern Africa (10 million died in the Belgian Congo alone); the Aboriginal Genocide in Australia, and the Maori Genocide in New Zealand; slavery and mass Indigenous death from introduced disease in the Pacific; and mass murder in Asian (excess deaths from the British enslavement of India 1757-1947 total 1.5 BILLION; excess deaths in China from the Opium Wars and the Tai Ping rebellion associated with Western encroachments totalled 20-100 million) (see: “Body Count. Global avoidable mortality since 1950”, G.M. Polya, Melbourne, 2007: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/137... and http://globalbodycount.blogspot.com/ ; see also Lindqvist, S. (1992), Exterminate All the Brutes (Granta Books, London, 2002) ).

Zionism founder Theodor Herzl was explicit in stating the racist agenda of Zionism in a more general context of European colonial racism 112 years ago (1896) in “Der Judenstaat” (“The Jewish State”, see Chapter 2, sub-heading “Palestine or Argentine?”: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org... ); thus the following QUOTE.

“If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence.”

Theodor Herzl’s 1896 dismissal of the great Asian civilizations – Mesopotamia, Iran, Turkestan, India, China, Japan, Korea, Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, Sri Lanka etc - as “Asian barbarism” is mirrored by the extraordinary (to decent folk) assertions of an Israeli Ambassador to Australia in 2006 as QUOTED below.

“Israel and Australia are like sisters in Asia. We are in Asia without the characteristics of Asians. We don’t have yellow skin and slanted eyes. Asia is basically the yellow race. Australia and Israel are not - we are basically the white race. We are on the western side of Asia and they are on the southeastern side. Israel has not fully acknowledged the value of working together with Australia in Asia. It’s a way for us to cooperate with and enhance our position in the countries neighboring Australia." (see top Israeli newspaper Haaretz: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages... ).

This anti-Asian sentiment was translated into horrible reality with the (continuing) genocide of the Palestinians, 60 years of violent attacks on its Arab neighbours and sustained Apartheid Israeli support for the African- and Indian-suppressing, neo-Nazi Apartheid régime in South Africa (see: Blum, W. (2006), Rogue State, A guide to the world’s only superpower (Zed Books, London)).

However there is a further shocking dimension to the human cost of Israel, namely the effect on excess death in its neighbours due to its war and occupation policies. Using UN Population Division data one can estimate that the 1950-2005 excess deaths in all countries partly occupied by the State of Israel in the last 60 years totalled 24 million. The breakdown (1950-2005 excess deaths/2005 population) for the State of Israel and its violated neighbours is as follows: Israel [0.095m/6.685m =1.4%] - Egypt [19.818m/74.878m = 26.5%], Jordan [0.630m/5.750m = 11.0%], Lebanon [0.535m/3.761m = 14.2%], Occupied Palestinian Territories [0.677m/3.815m = 17.7%], Syria [2.198m/18.650m = 11.8%], total = 23.858m/106.854 = 22.3% (see: “Body Count. Global avoidable mortality since 1950” (G.M. Polya, Melbourne, 2007: http://mwcnews.net/Gideon-Polya/).

Apartheid Israel and its racist Anglo-American backers can be seen as not merely anti-Arab anti-Semitic (ethnic cleansing Indigenous Arab Palestinians) but also anti-Jewish anti-Semitic by grossly violating the core moral messages from the Jewish Holocaust - "zero tolerance for racism" and "never again to anyone".

In the over 40 year occupation and mass imprisonment of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (current population about 4 million), post-1967 excess deaths total 0.3 million and post-invasion under-5 infant deaths total 0.2 million. There are 7 million Palestinian refugees; 2,400 Occupied Palestinian infants are "passively murdered" by war criminal Apartheid Israel EVERY YEAR; 85% of Indigenous Palestinian Christians have fled; and outstanding Jewish South African Government Minister and hero in the fight against Apartheid, Ronnie Kasrils, describes the Zionist-occupied Holy Land as "worse than Apartheid"

(see: http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.asp... ).

Wonderful, anti-racist, humanitarian British and Australian Jews are speaking out against Apartheid Israeli crimes against humanity - see Independent Jewish Voices ( IJV: http://jewishvoices.squarespace.com/ ) and Independent Australian Jewish Voices (IAJV: http://www.iajv.org/ ). See also "Apartheid Israel’s 60 Years of War, Theft & Palestinian Genocide ": http://mwcnews.net/content/view/223... ).

We cannot walk by on the other side - but what can we do? All decent folk must (a) follow the example of anti-racist, humanitarian Jews of IJV and IAJV and SPEAK OUT against Apartheid Israel and (b) apply national and international Sanctions and Boycotts against racist Zionist-run Apartheid Israel and its Zionist-Bush-ite backers in order to STOP the Holocaust-defiling, anti-Jewish anti-Semitic and anti-Arab anti-Semitic Racist Zionists (RZs) NOW - it worked against Anglo-America- and Apartheid Israel-backed Apartheid South Africa 2 decades ago and should be successful against Anglo-American-backed Apartheid Israel TODAY.

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At the height of Guatemala’s mass slaughters in the 1980s, including genocide against the Ixil Indians, the Reagan administration worked with Israeli officials to provide helicopters that the Guatemalan army used to hunt down fleeing villagers, according to documentary and eyewitness evidence.

During testimony at the recent genocide trial of former Guatemalan dictator Efrain Rios Montt, one surprise was how often massacre survivors cited the Army’s use of helicopters in the scorched-earth offensives.

Journalist Allan Nairn, who covered the war in Guatemala and attended the Rios Montt trial, said in an interview, “one interesting thing that came out in the trial, as witness after witness testified, was a very substantial number of them talked about fleeing into the mountains and being bombed, attacked and machine gunned from U.S. planes and helicopters.

“At the time this was going on, I was aware this was happening in some cases, but from the testimony of the witnesses, it sounded like these attacks from U.S. planes and helicopters were more frequent than we realized at the time. That’s an example of how we don’t know the whole story yet – how extensive the U.S. complicity was in these crimes.”

Part of the mystery was where did Guatemala’s UH-1H “Huey” helicopters come from, since the U.S. Congress continued to resist military sales to Guatemala because of its wretched human rights record. The answer appears to be that some helicopters were arranged secretly by President Ronald Reagan’s National Security Council staff through Israeli intelligence networks.

Rios Montt began pressing the United States for 10 UH-1H helicopters in June 1983, as his military campaign was ramping up. Since Guatemala lacked the U.S. Foreign Military Sales credits or the cash to buy the helicopters, Reagan’s national security team looked for unconventional ways to arrange the delivery of the equipment.

On Aug. 1, 1983, NSC aides Oliver North and Alfonso Sapia-Bosch reported to National Security Advisor William P. Clark that his deputy Robert “Bud” McFarlane was planning to exploit his Israeli channels to secure the helicopters for Guatemala, according to a document that I discovered at Reagan’s presidential library.

“With regard to the loan of ten helicopters, it is [our] understanding that Bud will take this up with the Israelis,” wrote North and Sapia-Bosch. “There are expectations that they would be forthcoming. Another possibility is to have an exercise with the Guatemalans. We would then use US mechanics and Guatemalan parts to bring their helicopters up to snuff.”

By then, McFarlane had a long and intimate relationship with Israeli intelligence involving various backdoor deals. [For more on McFarlane's Israeli channels, see Consortiumnews.com's "How Neocons Messed Up the Mideast."]

Israeli Channel

McFarlane’s approach to Israel for the helicopters was successful, according to former Israeli intelligence officer Ari Ben-Menashe, who described some of the history behind Israel’s activities in Guatemala in his 1992 memoir, Profits of War.

Ben-Menashe traced the Israeli arms sales to Guatemala back to a private network established in the 1970s by Gen. Ariel Sharon during a gap when he was out of the government. Sharon’s key representative in Guatemala was a businessman named Pesach Ben-Or, and through that channel, Israel supplied military gear to Guatemala’s security services in the 1980s, Ben-Menashe wrote.

In an interview on Thursday, Ben-Menashe said the Israelis supplied a total of six helicopters to the Guatemalans along with computers and software to keep track of alleged subversives who could then be identified and executed. Ben-Menashe said he learned of the mass slaughters during his travels to Guatemala and reported back to his Israeli superiors about the atrocities involving the equipment that they had authorized. The response, he said, was concern but inaction.

“They weren’t for killing these people, not at all,” Ben-Menashe said. “But they thought their interest was to help the Reagan people. If the Reagan people wanted it [the equipment sent to Guatemala], they would do it. [They thought,] ‘this is bad, but is it any of our business? Our American friends are asking for our help, so we should help them.’”

After our phone interview had ended, Ben-Menashe called me back to stress that the Israelis were unaware of the genocidal nature of the Guatemalan military campaigns against the Ixil Indians, although the Israelis did recognize that they were assisting in mass murders of dark-skinned Guatemalans.

“As we saw it, they [Guatemalan military authorities] were targeting all non-white villagers who were sitting on fertile lands that the white Guatemalans wanted,” he said, adding that when he reported this information to his superiors, “the Israelis rolled their eyes [in dismay] but said, ‘this is what our friends in the Reagan administration want.’” [For more on Ben-Menashe's work for Israeli intelligence, see Robert Parry's Secrecy & Privilege and America's Stolen Narrative.]

Besides the helicopters for hunting down villagers who fled into the jungles, the computer equipment and the sophisticated software made the Guatemalan killing machine vastly more efficient in the towns and cities. A former U.S. Green Beret operating in Guatemala once told me that he witnessed Guatemalan security forces stopping buses and inputting identification numbers of the passengers into a computer to select those who would be dragged off to the side of the road and summarily shot.

Death Lists

From first-hand reporting in Guatemala, journalist Nairn also observed the security advantages gained from detailed death lists. Nairn said soldiers under Gen. Otto Perez Molina, the current president, “described how they would go into town armed with death lists provided them by G2 military intelligence, death lists of people who were suspected of being collaborators of the guerrillas or critics of the army.

“They told how they would strangle people with lassos, slit women open with machetes, shoot people in the head in front of the neighbors, use U.S. planes, helicopters and 50 gram bombs to attack people if they fled into the hills.”

Nairn said, “The U.S. had also arranged for Israel to step in and become the principal supplier of hardware to the Guatemalan army, in particular assault rifles, the Galil automatic rifle. This was because the administration was running into problems with Congress, which wouldn’t go along with a lot of their plans to aid the Guatemalan military, so they did an end run by using the government of Israel.”

Though the focus of the case against Rios Montt has been the genocide inflicted on Ixil villages in the northern highlands – where some 626 villages were eradicated by the Guatemalan military – those massacres were only part of the estimated 200,000 killings perpetrated by right-wing Guatemalan regimes since a CIA-sponsored coup ousted an elected government in 1954.

The bloodbath was at its worst in the 1980s during Ronald Reagan’s presidency as he encouraged the anti-leftist slaughters that claimed the lives of some 100,000 Guatemalans. Reagan expanded his support for the Guatemalan security forces even though the CIA was keeping his administration informed of the systematic killings underway.

Another document that I discovered in the archives of the Reagan Library in Simi Valley, California, revealed that Reagan and his national security team in 1981 agreed to supply military aid to Guatemala’s dictators so they could pursue the goal of exterminating not only “Marxist guerrillas” but people associated with their “civilian support mechanisms.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ronald Reagan: Accessory to Genocide.”]

As for Rios Montt, who ruled Guatemala for 17 especially bloody months in 1982-83, the 86-year-old ex-general was convicted of genocide and crimes against humanity by a criminal court on May 10 and was sentenced to 80 years in prison.

But that conviction was overturned on Monday on a 3-2 vote by Guatemala’s Constitutional Court which is still dominated by allies of the military and the oligarchy. As for the Reagan administration officials and the Israelis who aided and abetted Rios Montt and his fellow generals, there is no indication that any accountability will be exacted.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 19:55 schreef Rosario het volgende:
Twijfelachtige bron en taalgebruik. Een regio als Samaria of Judea een concentratiekamp noemen, dan heb je toch wel een grote Godwin te pakken hoor.. Maar goed, het past perfect in deze topicreeks.

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Op zaterdag 13 juli 2013 20:05 schreef Rosario het volgende:

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Daar gaat het niet om, uiteraard zijn er anti-zionistische joden. Er zijn ook zionistische joden en objectieve joden. De mening van die laatste groep wordt echter door niemand in dit topic gebruikt, omdat een objectieve blik blijkbaar eng is ofzo. Of omdat de loopgraven aan beide kanten al zover ingegraven zijn dat er alleen maar kan worden geknald, en er geen ruimte meer is voor reflectie noch begrip. Israël is óf heilig, of apartheid. Dat slaat dus nergens op.