9/11 Is controlled demolition inmiddels 100% bewezen? #9

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 11:12 schreef JohnnyKnoxville het volgende:

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Je kunt de branddriehoek die ik eerder noemde op 3 manieren onderbreken:
[1] door de zuurstof weg te nemen (door bijvoorbeeld een schuimdeken)
[2] door de brandstof weg te nemen (bijvoorbeeld gaskraan dichtdraaien)\
[3] door de ontbrandingstemperatuur weg te nemen (door te koelen met veel water)

Als je bijvoorbeeld de zuurstof wegneemt, dooft dus de brand (denk aan glas omgekeerd over kaars), de temperatuur zakt echter niet snel! Dat zie je ook bij zo'n "backdraft", in een afgesloten ruimte woedt brand, op een gegeven moment is de zuurstof op, dooft de brand en is de branddriehoek onderbroken.
Als dan iemand een deur opent, komt er weer zuurstof binnen, is de driehoek gesloten en laait het vuur weer op.
In de tussentijd bleef de temperatuur hoog genoeg om boven de ontbrandingstemperatuur van het gas in de ruimte, uitgescheiden door bijvoorbeeld de meubels, te liggen.

Dus: temperatuur tijdens en (een kwartier) na brand hoeven niet veel te schelen. Zo snel koelt een gebouw niet af als het al twee uur heeft gebrand.

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 11:24 schreef Redux het volgende:
Vooral ook vanaf 4.50 waarbij de bocht wat de 757 van flight 77 maakte wordt gesimuleerd

3x wordt de manouvre in de simulator uitgevoerd, 3x weet de piloot het pentagon te raken.

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 11:31 schreef JohnnyKnoxville het volgende:

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Ik heb helaas niet de beschikking over een brandsimulatieprogramma. .

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Dutch Pentagon Attack Recreation A Fraud? - Simulator Not Certified, Not A 757

(Pilotsfor911truth.org) - Some may be aware of a video in which Dutch Researchers at the National Aerospace Laboratory recreate the Pentagon Attack in a flight simulator with what they claim is an "inexperienced pilot", in an attempt to prove that it is "not impossible" for Hani Hajour --the alleged hijacker pilot of American Airlines Flight 77-- to have performed such a maneuver. Others, mostly anonymous, attempt to use this outdated video in a poor attempt to discredit seasoned 757/767 Captains speaking out. Since the release of "9/11: World Trade Center Attack" featuring interviews with 757/767 Captains from United and American Airlines who have attempted to recreate the maneuvers reported on 9/11, Pilots For 9/11 Truth have once again come under fire. Captains from United, American and other airlines have attempted to recreate the maneuvers performed on 9/11 and found it highly unlikely to impossible for any inexperienced pilot to have accomplished such maneuvers (See "9/11: World Trade Center Attack" and "Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Two - Flight Of American 77" at http://pilotsfor911truth.org for more details).

The Dutch simulation test was performed prior to the release of the Flight Data Recorder information, so clearly the Dutch researchers did not have any scientific data to examine the maneuver, nor implement the maneuver properly. Their main focus was to debunk claims made that the turning maneuver was impossible, which we agree is possible according to the data now released. However, other aspects of the flight path are impossible (See "9/11: Attack On The Pentagon" at http://pilotsfor911truth.org).

The following is a clip of the simulator portion. The audio has been removed due to the fact we were unable to obtain a high quality copy of the video and the fact the language is in Dutch. However, subtitles are provided.

After review of the simulation, here are the unknowns. They claim to use a speed of 800 km/h, which is 30 knots less than reported by the 9/11 Commission and the since released Flight Data Recorder information. A 30 knot difference at such high speeds can be a major factor in control effectiveness and structural integrity (See "9/11: World Trade Center Attack"). They also do not show the simulator reaching this speed. We also don't know the exact maneuver performed. Although they show a diagram prior to entering the simulator, there is no way of knowing if they actually followed such a flight path. We also don't know type of aircraft configuration nor any weather conditions they may have set for the maneuver. Although the sky was clear on 9/11, there was an almost direct cross wind at 10 knots which is a factor when maneuvering (See METAR's at http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon). We also don't know experience level of the simulator pilot. The video compares Hani Hanjour to Mr. Ruigrok, the simulator pilot, as "inexperienced" and having flight time in light aircraft and flight simulators, but how much? Mr. Ruigrok works for the National Aerospace Laboratory (NLR). It is fair to say he has a lot of time in simulators and is very familiar with such a device. As Mr. Ruigrok enters the simulator, the narrator goes on to state Mr Ruigrok had "practice" as "Hani probably did too" suggesting Mr. Ruigrok has practiced the attack maneuver prior to the taping as Hani "probably" would have done prior to 9/11. This is scientific research? No, this is creating more experience for an alleged "inexperienced pilot" based on speculation. When asked, NLR refused to offer credentials and experience level of Mr. Ruigrok in order to determine their definition of "inexperienced". (See below).

This is what we do know about their simulation:

It is not based on data; The crash logic was disabled; The over-speed warnings were disabled; They did not include topographical obstacles; The light poles on Washington Blvd are non-existent, and, most importantly, the simulator is not a 757! All of these are major factors when attempting to recreate a real-life maneuver which Pilots For 9/11 Truth have shown, based on data, is impossible.

Keep in mind, jumping in any old simulator attempting to hit the Pentagon is very easy to do. The Pentagon is one of the largest buildings in the world. But for the purpose of this recreation attempt, the Dutch researchers claim they are a "...technological institute [focusing] on scientific research and.. therefore only present information to the media directly based on this research" (See email exchanges below). NLR claims to be presenting a scientific approach for the purpose of performing the maneuvers reported and impacting the area of the Pentagon attacked, concluding the attack as possible.

On first attempt during the taping of the video, Mr. Ruigrok hits the top northwest corner of the building which would have spread large pieces of wreckage everywhere, unlike the alleged object that hit the Pentagon which left very little wreckage. The second hit plowed into the front lawn and foundation. No such damage is observed at the Pentagon. The third time looks like a more direct hit but again plows into the foundation.

Conclusion - It took 3 tries on video to get it close. How many times did Mr. Ruigrok "practice" prior as the video admits? The simulator crash logic being disabled is a major factor as the simulator would have crashed long before getting to the Pentagon due to excessive speed (See "9/11: World Trade Center Attack"). The over speed warning also being disabled is another major factor as it's a huge distraction to the pilot while flying. Combined with the fact the light poles on Washington Blvd are missing and the fact the simulator is not that of a 757, how can anyone take such recreation for this purpose (ad-hoc and incidental) as scientific?

Pilots For 9/11 Truth contacted the National Aerospace Laboratory in the Netherlands in an attempt to clarify some details of this simulator test.

These were the questions asked:

1. Prior to the above simulation, how long has Mr. Ruigrok worked for NLR and in what capacity?

2. Prior to above simulation, how much total flight time did Mr. Ruigrok have logged? In what type aircraft? How much time in a 757 Flight simulator?

3. Your video states Mr. Ruigrok has flight time in flight simulators and light aircraft as did Hani Hanjour, the reported Hijacker/pilot of American Airlines Flight 77. As Mr Ruigrok enters the simulator in the video, the narrator goes on to state Mr Ruigrok had some "practice" as "Hani probably did too". How much practice did Mr Ruigrok have flying the maneuver prior to videotaping the maneuver?

4. The speed used for the simulation was stated as 800 km/h. This is 30 knots less than the speeds reported by the 9/11 Commission. Do you have any video tape showing the airspeed during the acceleration to the Pentagon?

5. We noticed the crash logic on your simulator was disabled for this test, or it was not installed. We also notice the over speed warnings were not operating as normal if in fact Mr Ruigrok exceeded Vmo. At what speed over Vmo is the crash logic usually triggered on the simulator used? (red screens, simulator freezes.. .etc)

6. Was the simulator used in this test certified to Level D Full Flight Simulator (FFS) Standards?

And the first reply:

Dear mr. Balsamo,

On request from journalists, NLR has demonstrated in an ad-hoc simulation in a non-certified research full flight simulator that it is not impossible for an inexperienced pilot to perform the flight manoeuvre which has lead to the crash in the Pentagon on 9/11. NLR has not studied the events on 9/11 in detail and can therefore not state anything conclusive about it.

Best regards,

Frank Vos

Bolding emphasis added. The National Aerospace Laboratory uses a simulator which is not certified to compare a real life flight maneuver? Why isn't it certified? Because it doesn't behave like a real airplane? This is scientific research? We attempt to contact Mr. Vos again pointing out we were not looking for a conclusive statement regarding 9/11.


Dear Mr Vos,

I thank you for your prompt reply. However, we were not asking for any conclusive statement regarding 9/11 from your organization. Our inquiry was to the experience level of Mr Ruigrok who performed the simulation. If you would be so kind to review these questions again and perhaps provide more specific answers as to the experience level and practice performed by Mr Ruigrok prior to the taping, it would be much appreciated.

1. Prior to the above simulation, how long has Mr. Ruigrok worked for NLR and in what capacity?

2. Prior to above simulation, how much total flight time did Mr. Ruigrok have logged? In what type aircraft? How much time in a 757 Flight simulator?

3. Your video states Mr. Ruigrok has flight time in flight simulators and light aircraft as did Hani Hanjour, the reported Hijacker/pilot of American Airlines Flight 77. As Mr Ruigrok enters the simulator in the video, the narrator goes on to state Mr Ruigrok had some "practice" as "Hani probably did too". How much practice did Mr Ruigrok have flying the maneuver prior to videotaping the maneuver?

4. The speed used for the simulation was stated as 800 km/h. This is 30 knots less than the speeds reported by the 9/11 Commission. Do you have any video tape showing the airspeed during the acceleration to the Pentagon?

5. We noticed the crash logic on your simulator was disabled for this test, or it was not installed. We also notice the over speed warnings were not operating as normal if in fact Mr Ruigrok exceeded Vmo. At what speed over Vmo is the crash logic usually triggered on the simulator used? (red screens, simulator freezes.. .etc)

6. Was the simulator used in this test certified to Level D Full Flight Simulator (FFS) Standards? (I believe you already answered this question, and that it was not certified. Thank you)

Again, Thank you in advance for any questions you may be able to answer.

Rob Balsamo
Co-Founder
pilotsfor911truth.org
Member list
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core

And the reply:

Dear Mr. Balsamo,

The media policy of NLR includes that we do not contribute to any investigations, articles or news items by journalists and media, concerning the events that occured[sic] on 9/11. This guideline concerns in particular the supposed manoeuvres of the flights that day. Our simulation was ad-hoc and incidental. As a technological institute we focus on scientific research and we therefore only present information to the media directly based on this research. For that reason I'm sorry to tell you that we don't want to examine your questions.


Best regards,

Frank Vos

Again, bolding emphasis added. Hmmm, feels a lot like the replies we get from the National Transportation Safety Board and the FBI. First Mr. Vos acknowledges NLR demonstrated/recreated a reported event on 9/11 due to a request made by journalists, when asked to clarify, Mr. Vos now claims it's against NLR policy to contribute? Contradict much?

Our final reply to Mr. Vos,

Dear Mr Vos,

I am sorry to hear that you "Don't want to examine our questions".

If your organization is truly interested in science, you may want to research the Flight Data Recorder information being provided by the NTSB which has since been released through the Freedom Of Information Act since your simulation test. It does not support the 9/11 Commission version of events. It has been examined by US Certified Aircraft Accident Investigators (including a former USAF Accident Investigation Board President), FDR Experts, Boeing Simulator Experts and High time pilots (including several who have actual flight time in the aircraft reportedly used on 9/11, all 4).

You can read a summary of our findings here.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pressrelease

Also, according to the data, topography and obstacles, it is impossible for a 757 to have performed the maneuver as claimed by the 9/11 Commission. Again, examined by the above certified professionals. The NTSB and FBI refuse to comment.

Considering your simulator was not certified, the crash logic disabled, and the video admits Mr Ruigrok had "practice" based on speculation that "Hani probably did too", this is not consistent with scientific research.

I thank you for taking the time to review our questions. Once again, I'm sorry you "Don't want to examine them".

Although, you may want to examine the information and data for yourself. Feel free to contact us if you have any questions.

Rob Balsamo
Co-Founder
pilotsfor911truth.org

If anyone would like to email Mr. Vos for inquiry, please feel free, although you may not get much of an answer. dfvos@nlr.nl

Pilots For 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals from around the globe. The organization has analyzed Flight Data provided by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). The data does not support the government story. See http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pressrelease for a summary of Pentagon Analysis. The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment. Pilots For 9/11 Truth Core member list continues to grow.

BRON: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/dutch_simulation_debunked

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 11:44 schreef Redux het volgende:

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Ze hebben (3x) eenzelfde manouvre uitgevoerd als het 'echte' vliegtuig. Dus zelfde snelheid, zelfde bocht etc. Het toont in ieder geval aan dat die manouvre niet onmogelijk is.

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 11:47 schreef Redux het volgende:

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Hoe weten complotgelovers dan dat zo'n manouvre NIET mogelijk is?

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 11:53 schreef Zwansen het volgende:

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Gast, je snapt toch ook zelf wel dat je opmerking nergens op slaat.

Je ziet zelf ook dat dit de reguliere Zembla uitzending was. Leuke poging om te trollen.

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It is not based on data; The crash logic was disabled; The over-speed warnings were disabled; They did not include topographical obstacles; The light poles on Washington Blvd are non-existent, and, most importantly, the simulator is not a 757! All of these are major factors when attempting to recreate a real-life maneuver which Pilots For 9/11 Truth have shown, based on data, is impossible.

Keep in mind, jumping in any old simulator attempting to hit the Pentagon is very easy to do. The Pentagon is one of the largest buildings in the world. But for the purpose of this recreation attempt, the Dutch researchers claim they are a "...technological institute [focusing] on scientific research and.. therefore only present information to the media directly based on this research" (See email exchanges below). NLR claims to be presenting a scientific approach for the purpose of performing the maneuvers reported and impacting the area of the Pentagon attacked, concluding the attack as possible.

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 11:57 schreef UncleScorp het volgende:

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Ze geven toch al toe dat het niet wetenschappelijk is, maar gewoon goed onderbouwd volgens hen.

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 11:58 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

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Dus als iemand op een wetenschappelijk verantwoorde manier 1 of meerdere fouten aan weet te tonen in het NIST rapport zegt hij daar eigenlijk mee dat de VS een terroristische aanslag heeft gepleegt?

Hoe werkt die logica?

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Op woensdag 2 juni 2010 12:01 schreef Zwansen het volgende:

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Wederom slaat dit helemaal nergens op. Waar zeg ik van wel dan?

Overigens lijkt het me vanzelfsprekend dat een Zembla van de publieken objectiever is dan menig youtubekanaal, website of tv-zender.