Meen je dat? Ik ben niet meer zo thuis in deze materie, maar dit is toch die golfbeweging van een jaar of 50? En die is toch gewoon een soort van bewijsbaar?quote:Op zondag 15 februari 2009 02:46 schreef dvr het volgende:
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Die historicus baseert zich op de Kondratiev golf, die in de economische wetenschappen niet erg serieus genomen wordt (na deze crisis misschien wel).
ja en nu gaan we naar beneden, we zijn nu in recessie en naderen depressiequote:Op zondag 15 februari 2009 16:49 schreef Tinkepink het volgende:
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Meen je dat? Ik ben niet meer zo thuis in deze materie, maar dit is toch die golfbeweging van een jaar of 50? En die is toch gewoon een soort van bewijsbaar?
Er zijn wel dergelijke golven aanwijsbaar, maar de meningen over wat je precies moet meten (en daarmee hoe ze verlopen) en vooral wat de oorzaken zijn lopen erg uiteen. Kondratiev (Kondatrieff) doet het voorkomen alsof het een wetmatigheid is dat er een ondoorbreekbare lange conjunctuurgolf optreedt, terwijl er heel goede verklaringen 'van buiten' aan te wijzen zijn waarom die golven optreden. Technologische ontwikkelingen die de economie een grote boost geven, en monetair beleid van overheden, die enorme hoeveelheden krediet laten ontstaan en daarmee perioden van inflatie en recessie veroorzaken, zijn dat oorzaken of gevolgen van dergelijke conjunctuurgolven?quote:Op zondag 15 februari 2009 16:49 schreef Tinkepink het volgende:
Meen je dat? Ik ben niet meer zo thuis in deze materie, maar dit is toch die golfbeweging van een jaar of 50? En die is toch gewoon een soort van bewijsbaar?
Ja, dat klopt. De mens maakt telkens weer dezelfde fouten.quote:Op zondag 15 februari 2009 16:49 schreef Tinkepink het volgende:
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Meen je dat? Ik ben niet meer zo thuis in deze materie, maar dit is toch die golfbeweging van een jaar of 50? En die is toch gewoon een soort van bewijsbaar?
bloombergquote:Japan’s Economy Shrinks Most Since 1974 Oil Shock
By Jason Clenfield
Feb. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Japan’s economy shrank the most since the 1974 oil shock last quarter amid an unprecedented collapse in exports and production.
Gross domestic product fell at an annual 12.7 percent pace in the three months ended Dec. 31, the Cabinet Office said today in Tokyo. The median estimate of 26 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News was for an 11.6 percent contraction.
Global demand for Corolla cars and Bravia televisions evaporated last quarter as credit markets froze and world growth sputtered. Toyota Motor Corp., Sony Corp. and Hitachi Ltd. -- all of which are forecasting losses -- are firing thousands of workers, heightening the risk a slump in household spending will prolong the recession.
“The best we can expect for this year is to see the collapse stop,” said Kyohei Morita, chief economist at Barclays Capital in Tokyo. For Japan to recover “we’ll need the U.S. and Chinese economies to take off first.”
The yen traded at 91.50 per dollar as of 9:00 a.m. in Tokyo compared with 91.76 before the report was published.
The quarter was defined by the fallout from the Sept. 15 bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., which set off a credit crisis that erased more than $14 trillion from global equity markets and paralyzed world trade. The meltdown also spurred a 14 percent surge in the yen against the dollar that’s eroded earnings for exporters already struggling with record declines in overseas sales.
The world’s second-largest economy has been in a recession since November 2007, according to a government panel that dates the economic cycle. The Bank of Japan forecasts GDP will shrink 2 percent in the year starting April 1, the sharpest contraction in the postwar era.
Parliamentary Gridlock
In contrast with the U.S. and China, where governments are moving forward with a combined $1.4 trillion in stimulus spending, policy makers in Japan are providing little help. Parliamentary gridlock has blocked the passage of Prime Minister Taro Aso’s 10 trillion yen ($111 billion) stimulus package, helping his approval rating slide to 14 percent ahead of elections required by September.
The central bank, which in December cut its key interest rate to 0.1 percent, is trying to get credit flowing by purchasing shares and corporate debt from lenders. It has little means to address what analysts say is the economy’s central problem: a lack of overseas demand.
The repercussions from that demand shochttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4pJGUKHbxoU&refer=homek have started to ripple through Japan’s economy as exporters from Toyota to Sony shed workers. The jobless rate surged to 4.4 percent in December from 3.9 percent, the biggest jump in four decades.
The firings intensified in the past month, with Panasonic Corp., Pioneer Corp., Nissan Motor Co. and NEC Corp. announcing a combined 65,000 job cuts. The eliminations may have pushed the recession into a “new phase” in which consumers become more defensive and spend less, according to Martin Schulz, a senior economist at Fujitsu Research Institute in Tokyo.
Sentiment among households, whose spending accounts for more than half of the economy, is close to the lowest level in at least 26 years.
Inflatie??? Deflatie, daar zitten we in! Hoe kunnen mensen die boeken schrijven over de grote depressie over inflatie lullen en TIPS aanraden? Dit is te zot om rond te lopen. Cash, ja! Waardevolle euro biljetten, dat moet je hebben! En wat goud ook. Maar Cash is the place to be! Cash kan je niet verliezen door banken die failliet gaan, of overheidsobligaties die 'defaulten'. Cash zakt niet mee met de zware beurs correcties zoals goud wel doet. Dollars waren de beste investering voor 2008. Beter als goud! 15% beter! Hyperinflatie = hyperillusie.quote:Op dinsdag 23 december 2008 23:33 schreef Poekieman het volgende:
Boek komt erop neer dat je in TIPS moet beleggen. Ik ben daar alleen niet zo zeker van, want de inflatie waartegen die beschermd zijn is de officiele inflatie, niet de echte.
Prachtige grafiek! Echter ik denk dat je fout bent met te denken dat de inflatie snel zal terugkomen. Het aantal euro's dat bijgeprint wordt om banken recht te houden, en straks overheden recht te houden, compenseert van geen kanten het aantal euro's dat vernietigd wordt. Maar straffer nog, het kredietsysteem zorgde ervoor dat elke echte euro, zoals henkway zegt, 40 keer is uitgegeven in de economie. Dat is de oorzaak van de inflatie die we hadden, niet het bijprinten! De bron van inflatie is nu vernietigd. Er zal door een scherpe dalingen aan leningen gemakkelijk 50% minder uitgegeven worden in de economie, voor vele jaren. Mijn artikel Krediet Crisis in SchelpenLand illustreert dat mooi. Deflatie is het sinds 2008 en deflatie zal het nog 5 a 10 jaar zijn. De beurs zal inderdaad nog een pak dieper gaan.quote:Op maandag 13 oktober 2008 22:39 schreef digitaLL het volgende:
Er zijn/worden triljarden aan geld in het systeem gepompt die nog vast zijn blijven zitten maar de komende tijd zullen die toch vrijkomen. De prikkel tot verkeerde investeringen met een dalende rente(central bancs) en de moral hazard die is gecreeerd is het mijns inziens niet te vermijden. It takes mal investments to get a recession but it takes politicians to make a recession into a depression![]()
Wat voor gedachte hebben de medefokkers hierover?
De Rabo is helemaal niets beter....quote:Op maandag 16 februari 2009 04:05 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:
Er komt weer boel shit op de gewone werkende man af dankzij die banken die er een zootje van gemaakt hebben.
Met zijn allen naar de Rabo.
Nou nou poeh hee... Wat een angstzaaierij... en waarop baseren we dat nu weer? Op die geweldige signature??quote:Op maandag 16 februari 2009 06:53 schreef vastgoedzeepbel het volgende:
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De Rabo is helemaal niets beter....
Wat is er dan zo goed aan de Rabobank?quote:Op maandag 16 februari 2009 09:40 schreef Goverman het volgende:
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Nou nou poeh hee... Wat een angstzaaierij... en waarop baseren we dat nu weer? Op die geweldige signature??
Stellingen innemen en boude uitspraken doen is prima de bima, maar... onderbouw wel even waar je dat vandaan hebt (en nee, niet uit die geweldige weblog met gejatte stukken tekst)
ik zat laatst te kijken op cbs en zag dat we in de jaren 70 of 80 een deflatieperiode haddenquote:Op maandag 16 februari 2009 04:11 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:
Gebeurde dat al eerder?
Ja eind jaren 70 en begin jaren 80 ging het ook helemaal mis, was nog net geen big depression maar scheelde niet veel, op dit moment is er goeg aan de hand om van een ernstige instorting van het geld te spreken en altijd groei met verzonnen geld blijkt niet te werken.
Bronquote:Depression Dynamic Takes Hold as Markets, Banks Revisit 1930s
By Rich Miller
March 9 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. economy’s vital signs may not confirm a diagnosis of depression. The symptoms increasingly point to one.
As in the Great Depression, world trade is collapsing, wealth is evaporating and the banking system is broken. Deflation is a growing threat as companies slash production, pay and prices. And leaders worldwide are having difficulty making headway in halting the self-perpetuating decline.
“We are tracking 1929-1930,” says Barry Eichengreen, a professor of economics and political science at the University of California, Berkeley.
The result: This contraction may leave a lasting imprint on the economy and society, just as the Depression did. In the wake of the devastation of the 1930s, Americans swore off stocks, husbanded their own resources and looked to the government for help. Now, another generation might draw some of the same lessons from the deepest economic collapse of their lifetime.
“This is going to scar the collective psyche,” says Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com in West Chester, Pennsylvania. “People will become much more conservative in borrowing, lending and investing.”
There’s no official definition of what qualifies as a depression. In the 1930s, the unemployment rate rose to 25 percent and the economy shrank by more than a quarter.
No economist forecasts a return to the breadlines and shantytowns of that era, even as the economy gets closer to some of the metrics academics cite as constituting a depression, if not a “great” one.
Little Likelihood
Nobel Prize-winning economist Robert Barro defines a depression as a 10 percent fall in per-capita gross domestic product and consumption. The Harvard University professor sees roughly a 30 percent chance of that occurring now.
The economy contracted at a 6.2 percent annual rate in the last quarter of 2008 and will shrink at a 7 percent rate in the first three months of 2009, projects Jan Hatzius, chief U.S. economist at Goldman Sachs Group Inc. in New York.
Bradford DeLong, a former Treasury official who is now a professor at Berkeley, says a depression is a two-year period with unemployment at 10 percent or above. He says that’s possible, though not likely. The jobless rate rose to 8.1 percent in February, a 25-year high.
Some industries are already in a depression, led by housing, where the decline accelerated in recent months as the credit crisis intensified. During the last four years, residential investment is down by 37 percent. That compares with an 80 percent drop in spending on home building from 1929 to 1932.
‘Most Difficult’
“The past five months have been among the most difficult in U.S. economic history,” Robert Toll, chief executive of Horsham, Pennsylvania-based Toll Brothers Inc., said Feb. 11, after the largest U.S. luxury homebuilder reported a 51 percent sales drop.
In the auto industry, U.S. sales have fallen 55 percent from their July 2005 peak. Production of cars and trucks plunged in January to an annual rate of 3.9 million, the lowest since the Federal Reserve began keeping records in 1967, and 67 percent below the January 2005 level.
Things are so bad that auditors have questioned the ability of General Motors Corp., the biggest U.S. automaker, to continue as a going concern.
U.S. motor vehicle output slumped 75 percent from 1929 to 1932, according to statistics in the book “American Automobile Workers 1900-1933,” by Joyce Shaw Peterson.
‘Automotive Depression’
“We are in an automotive depression,” said Efraim Levy, an equity analyst for Standard & Poor’s in New York.
The financial-services industry has also been decimated. Since the crisis began in the middle of 2007, institutions worldwide have racked up $1.2 trillion in credit losses and writedowns. Announced job cuts have topped 280,000.
“You’ve had a major disruption of the financial system, just like the 1930s,” says Mark Gertler, a New York University professor who collaborated on research about the Depression with Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke. In the 30s, more than 10,000 banks went bust.
That disruption is making it hard for Bernanke and his fellow policy makers to get much traction in their efforts to stop the economic decline. Strapped with losses, banks are hoarding capital rather than lending.
This type of breakdown happens only two or three times a century and can lead to a “downward vortex” in which weaknesses in the economy and the financial industry feed on each other and are difficult to break, Lawrence Summers, director of the White House’s National Economic Council, said Feb. 26. “It’s the kind of vicious cycle Franklin Roosevelt talked about,” he told a forum in Arlington, Virginia.
Collapse of Jobs Market
Particularly worrying, says Stanford University professor Robert Hall, is the collapse of the jobs market. Over the past four months, payrolls have plunged 2.6 million.
Summers has also voiced concern about a return of deflation, which wreaked havoc on the economy during the Great Depression. As wages fell back then, workers had a harder time paying their debts, aggravating the banking industry’s woes.
In an echo of those troubles, GM, FedEx Corp. and casino company Wynn Resorts Ltd. are among businesses slashing pay for more than 100,000 workers as they cut costs to counter declining demand.
There are other echoes. Since hitting a peak in October 2007, the Dow Jones Industrial Average has fallen 54 percent. Over a similar length of time -- from 1929 to 1931 -- the average fell 55 percent. It ultimately dropped 89 percent from its 1929 high before beginning to recover in mid-1932.
Stock Market Free-Fall
Combined with collapsing house prices, the free-fall in the stock market will destroy $23 trillion worth of U.S. wealth, reckons Lawrence Lindsey, a former senior White House official who now heads his own consulting company in Arlington, Virginia.
Like the Great Depression, the current economic decline is global. The International Monetary Fund says this will be the first time since World War II that the U.S. and other industrial nations will suffer a simultaneous decline in their economies.
Worldwide trade is falling fast as the credit crunch curbs financing for exporters and importers. The volume of merchandise trade plunged at an annual rate of 22 percent in the fourth quarter from the third, according to the CPB Netherlands Bureau for Economic Policy Analysis. The peak-to-trough decline from 1929 to 1932 was 35 percent, as countries slapped big tariffs on imports.
“We’re in a depression, and we need policy makers to make the right decisions to ensure that it does not become great,” says Kevin H. O’Rourke, a professor at Trinity College in Dublin, who has studied the trade issue.
Quicker Response
Government officials, especially in the U.S., are moving more rapidly to tackle the turmoil than their counterparts did during the early years of the Great Depression. Bernanke has cut the benchmark interest rate to as low as zero, while President Barack Obama won congressional approval of a $787 billion stimulus package.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Peter Temin says the trouble is that the economy seems to be collapsing faster than policy makers are reacting. “They’ve only done enough to cushion the downturn,” says Temin, author of the book “Lessons from the Great Depression.”
That leaves the U.S. -- and the rest of the world economy - -in danger of being mired in an extended period of little or no growth, much like that which afflicted Japan during the 1990s. Eichengreen says such an outcome would be equivalent to a depression.
Enduring Marks
Whatever it’s called, the economy’s continuing deterioration will likely leave enduring marks. U.S. households are already rebuilding savings in response to the crisis. The savings rate rose to 5 percent in January, the highest in almost 14 years.
“They’re buying what they need, and they’re being very smart about how they spend their money,” Myron Ullman, chief executive officer of Plano, Texas-based J.C. Penney Co., said on Feb. 20, after the third largest U.S. department-store chain forecast its first quarterly loss in almost five years.
In a Feb. 27 memo, “The Return of the Frugal Consumer,” Goldman Sachs economist Andrew Tilton projected a savings rate exceeding 8 percent by the end of 2010.
Americans may also turn more conservative about where they keep their money. Merrill Lynch & Co. says U.S. bonds owned by individuals likely will account for 2 percent of households’ financial assets by 2013, up from 0.2 percent now.
“We’re in the midst of a massive economic and financial crisis,” former Fed Chairman Paul Volcker said at a Columbia University conference on Feb. 20. “We’re going to hear reverberations about this for a long time.”
Als RABO beursgenoteerd was geweest, warebn ze ook voor de bijl gegaan, bij de RABO is de ellende niet zichtbaarquote:Op maandag 16 februari 2009 10:48 schreef Goverman het volgende:
Wat er zo goed is aan de Rabobank? Dat ze zo'n beetje de enige bank zijn die niet bij Wouter heeft hoeven aankloppen.
Bronquote:China May Press G-20 to Guard Its U.S. Assets, Researcher Says
By Li Yanping
March 24 (Bloomberg) -- China’s leaders may press at the Group of 20 summit for specific steps to protect its more than $1 trillion of dollar assets as U.S. fiscal policies risk sparking a “currency war,” a senior Chinese researcher said.
The dollar weakened after the Federal Reserve said March 18 it would buy as much as $300 billion of Treasuries and the U.S. this week outlined plans to buy as much as $1 trillion of illiquid bank assets.
U.S. purchases of Treasuries are “irresponsible” because they may weaken the dollar, Li Xiangyang, of the government- backed Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, told a forum in Beijing today. “Chinese leaders are likely to articulate their concern to their U.S. counterparts strongly and ask for specific measures.”
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