Crisis Oekra�ne - Rusland #180 Machtsgeil

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Op vrijdag 13 februari 2015 23:46 schreef Zith het volgende:

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Was jij daarbij dan dat je dit zo goed weet?

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Op vrijdag 13 februari 2015 23:51 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

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Dat staat er niet in.

Dat Oekraine controle houdt over de gehele grens met Rusland valt onder de paragraaf 'de status van Donbas'. Daarvoor moet de grondwet worden herzien en de bevoegdheden worden verdeeld. Daarover loopt het standpunt van Oekraine en Rusland sterk uiteen. Volgens het akkoord moeten ze dat nog invullen voor het einde van het jaar.

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Op vrijdag 13 februari 2015 23:47 schreef icecreamfarmer_NL het volgende:

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Waar komt jouw intel vandaan?
Overigens mag de VS wel eens met betere bewijzen komen of zijn die geschoten met zulke geheime apparatuur dat ze het nog niet waard vinden om prijs te geven?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misty_(satellite)

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Op vrijdag 13 februari 2015 23:57 schreef crashbangboom het volgende:

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Waar staat dat, Zithje?

Is dit de enige post waar je op kan aanslaan? Waarom is dat?

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 00:03 schreef Zith het volgende:

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Oh, ik zag je een handvol posts met 'was je er bij dan?' van je de laatste tijd, dacht ik geef je er eentje terug.

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Op vrijdag 13 februari 2015 23:58 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Dat zou kunnen inderdaad maar het staat niet in het akkoord dat dit gebied sowieso al naar Oekra�ne gaat.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 00:14 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

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Jawel, maar welke status het gebied krijgt niet.

Rusland pleit voor meer autonomie en dat gaat heel ver. Dan wordt het een onafhankelijk bestuurt gebied binnen Oekraine met veto recht over het Buitenlandse beleid.

Oekraine pleit voor decentralisatie waarin de regio's meer invloed krijgen op het beleid op bepaalde terreinen.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 00:39 schreef DeParo het volgende:

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Dat zal, maar het gaat er even om wat in dat akkoord staat, vandaar dus mijn twijfel over de reactie van die andere poster eerder.

twitter:

ChristopherJM twitterde op vrijdag 13-02-2015 om 18:39:34 To be clear-->RT @poroshenko: Ukraine will always be a unitary state. No federalisation whatsoever! #UnitedForUkraine http://t.co/CFL9Pn3EOl reageer retweet

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Actie G7 als akkoord Minsk wordt geschonden

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G7 Threatens 'Measures' if Minsk Agreement on Ukraine Violated

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 00:59 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

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Dit staat er over in het akkoord

9. Restoration of full control by the government of Ukraine over the state border throughout the conflict zone, which shall begin on the first day following the local elections and be completed following a comprehensive political settlement ([to wit:] [1] local elections in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions on the basis of the Law of Ukraine and [2] a constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, subject to the fulfilment of Paragraph 11—in consultation and by agreement with the representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.

11. Passing of a constitutional reform in Ukraine with the entry into force by the end of 2015 of a new constitution, which shall incorporate decentralization as a key element (taking into account the characteristics of certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions, to be agreed upon with the representatives of these areas), as well as, before the end of 2015, adoption of permanent legislation with respect to the special status of certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions in accordance with the measures specified in Note [1].

twitter:

ChristopherJM twitterde op vrijdag 13-02-2015 om 18:39:34 To be clear-->RT @poroshenko: Ukraine will always be a unitary state. No federalisation whatsoever! #UnitedForUkraine http://t.co/CFL9Pn3EOl reageer retweet

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 01:16 schreef meth1745 het volgende:
Zonder federalisering zal er geen vrede komen.

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Russian Parliament Warns Europe’s Longstanding Peace in Jeopardy

An extraordinary letter addressed to the European Parliament and the Council of Europe, among other recipients, reportedly sent from the Russian Parliament paints the war in Ukraine as a fight against Nazism and says Russia is ready to “mobilize all forces” to defend stability in Europe, provoking both ridicule and anger in Sweden, after surfacing there this week.

The sensational letter, signed by the State Duma chairman Sergey Naryshkin, a known hardliner with a close relationship to Putin, warns of a “fragmentation in Europe” and says that continuing sanctions, the crisis in Ukraine, and January’s terror attacks in Paris, jeopardise “the possibility of a peaceful life for over 800 million Europeans”.

The letter urges European parliamentarians to stop the crisis, and conjures imagery of both the Second World War and the Cold War. “We shall not allow the heirs of this criminal ideology [Nazism] to sow discord and alienation in the European family of nations. Such a split has already once in our common history resulted in death and misery, suffering and ruined fortunes, hunger and devastation,” reads a translation seen by Newsweek.

“The enormous responsibility for the future of our continent, imposed on members of parliament, leads us to mobilize all forces and means so Europe will henceforth remain a continent of stability and prosperity,” it continues, concluding: “We urge you, ladies and gentlemen, to realize what brink the world is on.”

The letter was addressed to all the national parliaments of Europe, the European Parliament, the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly and the Council of Europe, although its contents has so far only been covered in the Swedish media, after the Russian Embassy there forwarded the letter on to Swedish politicians. It is dated January 23rd, although it has only surfaced this week, coinciding with an important foreign policy debate in Sweden.

Spokespeople for the European Parliament and the Council of Europe said they were not aware of the letter.

Several Swedish politicians have expressed their anger at the letter’s threatening tone, and some Swedes go as far to say that it constitutes a threat of war, albeit one couched in diplomatic language. In the same week that the terms of a ceasefire were hashed out in Minsk over the crisis in Ukraine, Swedes are saying the letter is a way of warning Europe to leave Russia to take care of Ukraine.

Patrik Oksanen, political editor of Swedish daily newspaper Hudiksvalls Tidning, says the letter shows that “in indirect words, they are threatening World War Three in Europe. It is not a direct threat, but another instrument of the Russian propaganda.”

Yet Oksanen is concerned that pro-Russian propaganda is growing in Sweden, and is concerned that the slick Russian propaganda machine may be swaying politicians and ordinary people across Europe, particularly those who are more anti-establishment in mindset. “They are using their influence in both showing their strength that Sweden is weak and trying to influence the politicians and voters that Sweden should get off Russia’s back and not to start any trouble with them.”

Oscar Jonsson, PhD candidate at the Department of War Studies, King’s College London, agrees. “Propaganda is seen as absolutely crucial to the Russian government both internally and externally. Russians are very good at playing their enemy.”

“This letter fits the Russian narrative very well that Europe is supplying arms to Ukraine to escalate the situation into war, thereby sowing fear amongst European politicians."

Anke Schmidt Felzmann, a research fellow of the Swedish Institute for Internal Affairs, interprets the letter as scaremongering, and says that even the rhetoric from the Russian foreign ministry has been getting progressively more hostile and unpleasant over the past eight to 10 months.

“They are telling Europeans that there will be a major war in Europe. This is deliberate posturing, and the people of Sweden should be worried by it. What does it mean for us? The message is clear: Russia will not back down and is ready to wage a prolonged war against “the West”, by all possible means.”

Relations between Sweden and Russia have been growing increasingly tense, particularly in the wake of last year’s hunt for a Russian submarine thought to be lurking in the Stockholm archipelago.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 02:09 schreef SuicideErrorist het volgende:

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The Kremlin has warned Ukraine that if the country goes ahead with a planned agreement on free trade with the EU, it faces inevitable financial catastrophe and possibly the collapse of the state.

Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine's former trade minister, gave Sergei Glazyev, adviser to President Vladimir Putin, a public dressing down in a discussion session during which the Kremlin man was faced with jeering and catcalls for demanding that Ukraine abandon the EU pact and turn to Russia. The minister said that it was the Kremlin's heavy-handed tactics and threats of a trade war that had made European integration inevitable.

"For the first time in our history more than 50% of people support European integration, and less than 30% of the people support closer ties with Russia," said Poroshenko. "Thank you very much for that Mr Glazyev."

Radek Sikorski, the Polish foreign minister, accused Russia of a "19th-century mode of operating towards neighbours", and said that it was only when Ukraine was properly allied with Europe that Russia would begin to respect the country. "Poland's relations with Russia are better now that we are a member of the EU and Nato," said Sikorski. "When the question is open people feel entitled to exert pressure; when the question is closed they have to live with a sovereign country."

Glazyev, speaking on the sidelines of the discussion, said the exact opposite was true: "Ukrainian authorities make a huge mistake if they think that the Russian reaction will become neutral in a few years from now. This will not happen."

Instead, he said, signing the agreement would make the default of Ukraine inevitable and Moscow would not offer any helping hand. "Russia is the main creditor of Ukraine. Only with customs union with Russia can Ukraine balance its trade," he said. Russia has already slapped import restrictions on certain Ukrainian products and Glazyev did not rule out further sanctions if the agreement was signed.

The Kremlin aide added that the political and social cost of EU integration could also be high, and allowed for the possibility of separatist movements springing up in the Russian-speaking east and south of Ukraine. He suggested that if Ukraine signed the agreement, Russia would consider the bilateral treaty that delineates the countries' borders to be void.

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

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Op vrijdag 13 februari 2015 21:21 schreef Nintex het volgende:

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En de seperatisten zijn het daar 100% mee eens:

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Армия ЛН� вошла в Дебальцево. Есть большие потери. 13.02.2015

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 08:59 schreef Igen het volgende:

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trololo

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 02:01 schreef DUTCHKO het volgende:
[ afbeelding ]

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 02:36 schreef meth1745 het volgende:

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Het wordt weer afgedaan als propaganda en "scaremongering". Een vergelijkbare reactie zagen we in 2013, tijdens de Yalta conferentie.

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http://www.theguardian.co(...)n-union-trade-russia
Rusland heeft z'n "beloftes" van toen alvast gehouden...

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 02:36 schreef meth1745 het volgende:

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Het wordt weer afgedaan als propaganda en "scaremongering". Een vergelijkbare reactie zagen we in 2013, tijdens de Yalta conferentie.

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http://www.theguardian.co(...)n-union-trade-russia
Rusland heeft z'n "beloftes" van toen alvast gehouden...

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 09:21 schreef Igen het volgende:
Het enige wat anders wordt doordat Rusland z'n dreigementen in de daad omzet, is dat "we" meer werk van defensie tegen die dreigementen moeten maken.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 09:49 schreef 99.999 het volgende:

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Wat een onzin.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 09:41 schreef trigt013 het volgende:

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Jij weet blijkbaar niet hoe groot en sterk rusland is militair gezien, daar kan de hele NAVO geeneens tegenop.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 10:00 schreef sp3c het volgende:
er komt geen oorlog met Rusland, ziet niemand op te wachten en de problemen van de Oekrainers zijn niet belangrijk genoeg om ermee te dreigen

klaar?

crisis in UKR vanaf nu:

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 10:27 schreef Gabrunal_2013 het volgende:

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Dat is erg simplistisch gedacht. Ook het feit dat er globaal gezien paralellen zijn met het verleden, waarbij de oekraine crisis heel duidelijk twee kernwapenmogendheden tegen elkaar staan, lijkt me relevant genoeg in dit topic. De gebeurtenissen nu in oekraine nu hebben verregaande gevolgen. Ik vind dat daar best over gedicussierd kan worden hier als er direct raakvlakken zijn. Dus graag iets minder zwart-wit moderatie.

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The latest poll has shown that 85 percent of Russian citizens trust President Vladimir Putin and 74 percent say they would vote for him if presidential elections were held next weekend.

The poll, conducted by the Public Opinion Foundation on February 7-8 and released on February 13, shows that the current 85 percent trust rating is up from 75 percent in February 2014. The share of those who said they were ready to vote for Putin was also up from 45 percent one year ago.

84 percent of those polled said they approved of Putin’s work as president and only 7 percent admitted they were discontented with it.

The general attitude toward Putin was also mostly positive – 75 percent of Russians said they sympathized with their leader. Fourteen percent said they had both positive and negative sentiments about him and 7 percent reported that their attitude to the president was purely negative.

Other politicians’ ratings remained generally unchanged. Five percent of respondents said that if presidential polls were to be held next Sunday they would vote for the head of the populist-nationalist LDPR party, Vladimir Zhirinovsky. Four percent pledged support to the head of the Russian Communist Party, Gennadiy Zyuganov and 1 percent said they would vote for billionaire Mikhail Prokhorov, the founder of the pro-business party Civil Platform.

The head of the Russian Institute of Socio-Economic and Political Research, Dmitry Badovskiy, connected the new surge in Putin’s ratings with Russia’s strong position on the Ukrainian crisis and personal diplomatic success of the president demonstrated at this week’s summit in Minsk. Another factor was people’s hope for Putin’s ability to cope with the ongoing economic crisis and return stability to the national economy.

According to the expert, the results of the research mean that in the conditions of a real presidential election, Putin would win with a result approaching 90 percent.

Putin’s approval ratings were on the rise in Russia last year and in December an overwhelming majority citizens named their president the “Man of the Year” when they chose among other serving Russian politicians.

At the same time, the poll conducted by the Levada Center in October 2014 showed that the majority of respondents did not see the president’s popularity as a potential cult of personality. Only 19 percent said they had noticed features resembling a cult, compared to 27 percent in 2013.

In early December, Putin’s press secretary Dmitry Peskov commented on the surge in the president’s popularity in an interview with RT. Peskov said that in his opinion Putin did not need any publicity, bad or good, and the people’s love for Putin was a manifestation of their love for Russia.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 11:00 schreef Solo7609 het volgende:
Iedereen is vergeten dat vannacht een of ander bestand ingaat. Er wordt gewoon doorgekletterd natuurlijk.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 11:26 schreef 99.999 het volgende:

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Samen met dit http://rt.com/politics/230559-russia-west-attitude-poll/ zie je dan dat ze inderdaad het concept propaganda daar uitmuntend onder de knie hebben. Dat moet je de Russen wel nageven.

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The number of those who perceived the current relations between the two nations as hostile rose from 4 percent to 42 percent in a year.