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pi_61820509
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 11:02 schreef waht het volgende:
Exclusive: Foreign banks may get help
Misschien toch wel hulp voor de buitenlanders.
Mooie boel is dat! Nou moeten andere overheden ineens die gare hypotheken gaan overnemen van banken? Dus als voorbeeld moet DNB de slechte hypotheken van ING overnemen? Dikke mazzel, laat de yanks maar lekker zelf barsten in hun schulden. Natuurlijk snap ik ook wel dat de rest van de wereld mee gaat betalen, wat de uitkomst ook wordt. Maar dit is echt te zot voor woorden.
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 11:24:05 #152
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
pi_61820608
quote:
The Hunger That Never Ends

The Paulson plan to relieve hundreds of billions in seriously de-valued assets from the financial industry can’t possibly succeed. The more successful the government is in purchasing “toxic” assets, the more they will be squeezing private money out of the global economy and preventing the natural discovery of market prices and the re-allocation of resources to where they will be productive.

Instead of stopping the collapse in house and debt instrument prices, this massive bail-out will instead speed up the deflationary process by hovering up whatever capital still remains. For every dollar the US government raises by auctioning off a treasury bond for the bail-out that is one less dollar available for raising capital and purchasing assets in the private market. Banks will find it even harder to raise additional capital (which would enable them to lend more freely) than it already was since the US government is sucking all the capital out of the system. Which pension fund, sovereign wealth fund, or central bank, will want to participate in a CitiGroup share issue in such an uncertain economic environment when they can buy safe t-bills?

Of course, this assumes that this super-sized bail out will even succeed in acquiring the troubled assets it is designed to consume. It is far from clear that this bail-out entity will be willing to offer sufficiently high (above market) prices that the lenders need. There is no way financial institutions will sell their defunct assets at anything close to market prices since doing so will render them immediately bankrupt. It’s possible the government might be willing to pay the high prices these institutions demand, but that is far from clear right now, and we won’t know until the final details emerge.

Worse, even assuming that the bail-out entity does buy derelict assets at inflated prices, the government will further be forced to hang onto foreclosed properties in its portfolio indefinitely, keeping masses of vacant properties looming over the market. Selling these millions of homes at the actual market clearing rates will further drive down prices even more, causing greater financial disruptions (requiring the bail-out entity buy even more over-priced assets), and cause political problems when it becomes apparent that tax-payers will be taking a bath on their investment after-all.

And none of this is even mentioning the difficulties with other forms of toxic debt assets beyond the scope of real-estate. Will the US government also be purchasing GM and Chrysler bonds that have dropped in value?

The more the government buys, the more prices will drop forcing the government to buy even more assets, which keeps the cycle going. At some point the whole bail-out concept will come to an ignominious end.
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 11:28:03 #153
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
pi_61820709
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 11:11 schreef Freak187 het volgende:

[..]

Tadaa....

De markt moet afkoelen en alle geinvesteerde dollars van buitenlandse instanties gaan in rook op.
Ik vermoed eerder dat er een 'nucleair warhead' ligt onder alle gesloten handelsakkoorden.
Dit wordt een nieuw staaltje van protectionisme a new era.
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 12:21:21 #154
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
pi_61822355
toch geen algehele consensus in het congras voor paulson zn plannetje:
grumble
Your mind don't know how you're taking all the shit you see
Dont believe anyone but most of all dont believe me
God damn right it's a beautiful day Uh-huh
pi_61822669
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 12:42 schreef simmu het volgende:
toch geen algehele consensus in het congras voor paulson zn plannetje:
grumble
Jammer... ik hoopte nog ergens een miljardje weg te kunnen sluizen
pi_61822686
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 12:42 schreef simmu het volgende:
toch geen algehele consensus in het congras voor paulson zn plannetje:
grumble
quote:
"Democrats believe a responsible solution should include independent oversight, protections for homeowners and constraints on excessive executive compensation," Pelosi said in her statement.
Eindelijk iets zinnigs.

Democraten +1
The problem is not the occupation, but how people deal with it.
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 13:06:39 #159
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
pi_61822900
Op het internet worden allerlei vergelijkingen getrokken met de situatie in Japan (1990) of Argentinië (1999).
Noem het maar de "debt deflation cycle".
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 13:16:31 #160
56749 BlaZ
Torpitudo peius est quam mors.
pi_61823119
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 11:14 schreef elcastel het volgende:
Ik vraag me af of ze in de VS hier nog wat aan gaan doen : Superbonus voor Lehman top . Ik kan me niet voorstellen dat ze met een reddingsplan komen over de rug van de belastingbetaler met de wetenschap dat de eerste 2,5 miljard $ aan bonussen opgaat voor mensen die de boel niet in het gareel kunnen houden.
2,5 miljard bonus voor een bedrijf failliet te laten gaan.
Hebben ze nog een baantje voor mij daar
Ceterum censeo Turciam delendam esse.
pi_61823281
HIer nog een leuke uitleg;
quote:
What in holy hell is an RTC? Good question.

So all the banks and big companies that lost money can take all their CDOs, CDSs, subprime stuff and every other shitty investment that backfired, and stuff them into a big trash can euphemistally called a Resolution Trust Corporation. This has two huge advantages - it legally protects them from debt repayment problems and other subtle bankruptcy problems, and it shores up their balance sheets and immediately enables their share price to skyrocket now the debt has gone bye-bye.

Immediately, previously-insolvent investment banks can now go and borrow money and act like this whole business was just a meaningless, forgetful night of snorting coke from a hooker’s ass.

Now the RTC has to be supported by Uncle Sam, who basically has to put the infrastructure budget for - well - pretty much everything on hold and start printing money 24/7.

The great American taxpayer gets left by massive T-bill repayments together with a multi-trillion debt that will take generations to pay off, and the people in investment banks can start buying Ferraris, golf courses and private jets.

Now if I could use an RTC, I’d be happy. Just to emphasize how glorious this scheme really is, think about it as if an RTC existed for your family. Here’s how it would work for mine:

I dump all my credit card debt, mortgages, car loans, college loans and every other damned rope around my neck and stick it in the RTC.

I go and get new credit cards and start all over again.

My neighbors figure out how to pay off the RTC while I can’t decide on the trim for my new Mercedes.

Bron: Resolution Trust: the mother of all scams
...something smells fishy..
The problem is not the occupation, but how people deal with it.
pi_61824294
meer protest:
quote:
My Letter to my senator
Dear Senator Obama-

Chances are most if not all of the major commercial and investment banks are insolvent. Not one of them is opting out of the do-not-short list, and they don't seem to have the confidence in their survival to opt out of the L3 asset swap program Secretary Paulson is proposing.

It is also very likely that acutely dangerous systemic risk already exists, not merely from direct lines of credit among the banks, but especially from credit default swaps, which if activated by more than one large bank default would probably bring down many others. Remember, though, that this systemic risk is highly concentrated in the top 25 or so banks in the world, and does not jeopardize the 6,000 other community banks in the U.S.

Third, it is also highly probable that as this recession worsens, and as housing values continue to sink, forcing more foreclosures, the large banks will be even closer to collapse.

Having worked for many years in the banking industry and been closely involved with risk management and derivatives, I can tell you that it looks like catastrophe is already here.

What Sec. Paulson wants you to believe is that catastrophe is approaching, but it can be averted if only Congress acts urgently to give him the extraordinary authority he is requesting. The implication is if you don't give him $700 billion in borrowing authority within a week, markets will collapse and it will be all your fault.

We've seen this drill before, with the Patriot Act and with the Iraq War authorization. The scare tactics, the urgency, the implied threat of blame for any failure - this is what the Bush administration does. Some of you in the Senate were able to stand up to this pressure, and that type of strength is desperately needed now.

If insolvency is here now for the big banks, the last thing you want to do is throw $700 billion of money that is not yours at bailing out the banks who created this disaster. You'll need every bit of that money to protect the taxpayers and their deposits in these banks when these financial companies are thrown into the bankruptcy courts. You'll need that money to make sure consumer deposits are protected with insurance, and you'll need it to keep the healthy parts of these banks that deal with consumers and businesses functioning until they come out of bankruptcy.

And forget about comparing Paulson's plan to the RTC. These L3 assets aren't homes, condos, or commercial real estate that can be easily sold at the right price. They are bits of paper giving the bond holder the right to some small portion of thousands of mortgages, a right that is shared with all the other investors, who are required to agree on what is done with foreclosed properties in the pool. This is one of the reasons no one wants to buy this stuff, and no one will for many years until it is crystal clear what the final losses will be.

Once you give Paulson the authority he seeks, he will buy these securities at 65 cents/dollar, then quietly auction them off at a nickel each. It will be "unfortunate but necessary" to revitalize the banking industry, even though you will discover the banks won't be lending after this is all over to any but the finest credits. You will have rewarded the banks for their calamitous decisions, stuffed the taxpayers with huge losses, squandered your remaining ability to shore up the FDIC, not prevented the big banks from collapsing anyway, done nothing to help the community banks that will constitute the new banking system in this country when these problems are solved, and in the end made the situation much worse.

If you want to do something practical, require the SEC to go into these banks, open up their L3 holdings to public scrutiny, auction off a sampling of these securities, and apply those prices to the L3 portfolios of all the banks. In this way we will know which banks are insolvent. You won't need to go through this charade of having the Treasury take ownership of these assets, because the core of the problem is not that these assets are clogging up bank balances sheets, as Paulson says (which is tantamount to saying, by the way, that no one will buy them). The core of the problem is that there is no transparency about these portfolios and their real worth. Congress doesn't need $700 billion of our money to create that transparency, and if it shows as I suspect that many of these banks are insolvent, that's why we have bankruptcy courts. You can certainly protect the banks from bank runs while they are in bankruptcy.

Paulson is basically rolling you and the rest of Congress into giving him unprecedented power to protect his friends on Wall Street. This decision you are making is probably as momentous as the Iraq War resolution. Don't fall for this bailout disguised as the only way to prevent Armageddon. Armageddon is already here - at least for the big banks - and it needs an entirely different solution. Spend our money protecting us, by ensuring the FDIC is properly funded, by throwing these too-big-to-fail banks into bankruptcy if they truly are insolvent, by preserving the healthy parts of these banks while in bankruptcy, and bringing them back out again so they function under much better safety and soundness regulations. We've had airlines functioning properly and safely for years while in bankruptcy, and there is no reason we can't do the same with banks.

Please, please, do not fall for some useless compromise or bipartisan agreement that gives the administration what it wants in the end. Kill this proposal here and now, protect us from this bailout, and deal with the real problem - the insolvency of the major banks, not the paper that is supposedly blocking their lending capabilities.

Sincerely,

Numerian September 21, 2008 - 12:26am
bron
Your mind don't know how you're taking all the shit you see
Dont believe anyone but most of all dont believe me
God damn right it's a beautiful day Uh-huh
pi_61824547
hier een lang (meerdere pagina's) artikel wat de hele situatie goed verwoordt en met veel linkjes naar achtergrond- en opinieartikelen
quote:
“You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago 's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.”
--Col. Nathan R. Jessep, A Few Good Men
Your mind don't know how you're taking all the shit you see
Dont believe anyone but most of all dont believe me
God damn right it's a beautiful day Uh-huh
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 15:03:12 #164
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
pi_61825551
Sterke en bijzonder goed geplaatste quote....
quote:
“You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago 's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.”
--Col. Nathan R. Jessep, A Few Good Men
.
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 15:23:54 #165
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
pi_61825995
quote:
ECB biedt banken opnieuw dollars aan

FRANKFURT (AFN) - De Europese Centrale Bank (ECB) heeft banken opnieuw een kortlopende lening in dollars verstrekt. In totaal gaat het om circa 40 miljard dollar. Dat maakte de ECB maandag bekend.

Banken in de eurozone bleken een grotere behoefte te hebben aan dollars dan de ECB bereid was uit te lenen. In totaal schreven 48 banken zich in voor een bedrag van ruim 82 miljard dollar aan kortlopende leningen.

Vorige week spraken zes grote centrale banken af samen het tekort aan dollars op de wereldwijde geldmarkten tegen te gaan. De Federal Reserve, het stelsel van Amerikaanse centrale banken, verstrekte de andere centrale banken in totaal 180 miljard dollar extra in ruil voor andere valuta.
Vraag me af hoelang deze constructie nog blijft bestaan. Ook de ECB kan dit niet volhouden.
pi_61826097
Nog meer splinternieuwe dollars

  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 15:33:38 #168
115996 francorex
Earth stationary not spinning
pi_61826228
quote:
Drugshond die link is wel goed! Voel je niet geremd om regelmatig BNR-radio te posten. zeker als het interessant is.
pi_61826264
Hmm.. er dalen al weer heel wat bankjes op de DJ
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 15:47:46 #170
115996 francorex
Earth stationary not spinning
pi_61826579
9/21/2008 Ron Paul on the Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer


Ron Paul on the Bailout

"Wallstreet in trouble, sucking in Maen street."
pi_61827303
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 15:33 schreef francorex het volgende:

[..]

Drugshond die link is wel goed! Voel je niet geremd om regelmatig BNR-radio te posten. zeker als het interessant is.
Die man is echt manisch depressief .

Wie is dat in Godsnaam?
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 16:25:16 #172
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
pi_61827618
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 16:13 schreef pberends het volgende:

[..]

Die man is echt manisch depressief .

Wie is dat in Godsnaam?
Kees de Kort.... een soort van Hans Dorrestijn (ook deze heeft wel humor) maar hij zit in de financiële wereld.
quote:
Humor van het DFT-forum
Wanneer je in januari 2006 voor ¤ 1000,-- aandelen hebt
gekocht van Versatel,
heb je vandaag nog ¤ 36,--

Wanneer je in januari 2006 voor ¤ 1000,-- aandelen hebt
gekocht bij UPC
heb je vandaag nog ¤ 18,--

Wanneer je in januari 2006 voor ¤ 1000,-- aandelen hebt
gekocht bij Ahold,
heb je vandaag nog ¤ 100,--

Wanneer je echter verleden jaar voor ¤ 1000,--
volle kratten Bier hebt gekocht
en dus voor ¤ 1000,-- verzopen hebt, heb je vandaag nog
statiegeld ter waarde van ¤ 390,--

Dus : de hele dag in de luie stoel naar de TV kijken,
met een flesje bier in je hand levert het meeste op !
pi_61827626
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 16:13 schreef pberends het volgende:

[..]

Die man is echt manisch depressief .

Wie is dat in Godsnaam?
Kees de Kort bedoel je? Prachtige kerel, krijgt al twee jaar lang gelijk. Ik denk dat hij verantwoordleijk is voor 50% van de BNR streams.
pi_61827687
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 16:25 schreef Drugshond het volgende:

[..]

Kees de Kort.... een soort van Hans Dorrestijn (ook deze heeft wel humor) maar hij zit in de financiële wereld.
[ afbeelding ]
[..]


.

Toch vind ik Willem Middelkoop beter, die blijft tenminste serieus. Zouden die 2 niet samen kunnen gaan touren door het land?
pi_61827790
Ja altijd weer lachen met zijn oneliners. Elke dag live op BNR rond 12:15, en daarna te beluisteren op http://www.bnr.nl/radio/columns/kort/

"lollies op de achterbank"
pi_61828222
tvp
Life sucks
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 16:49:39 #177
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 16:50:26 #178
78918 SeLang
Black swans matter
pi_61828372
De US$ verzwakt verder

"If you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans"
Mijn reisverslagen
pi_61828541
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 16:25 schreef Drugshond het volgende:

[..]

Kees de Kort.... een soort van Hans Dorrestijn (ook deze heeft wel humor) maar hij zit in de financiële wereld.
[ afbeelding ]
[..]
1/10 Van de rappers dankt zijn bestaan in Amerika aan de Nederlanders die zijn voorouders met een cruiseschip uit hun hongerige landen ophaalde om te werken op prachtige plantages.
"Oorlog is de overtreffende trap van concurrentie."
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 18:15:22 #180
22794 Enchanter
Right you are Ken!!!
pi_61830554
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 16:50 schreef SeLang het volgende:
De US$ verzwakt verder

[ afbeelding ]
Wat vervelend
Ik ben inmiddels overleden
pi_61830571
tvp
Good intentions and tender feelings may do credit to those who possess them, but they often lead to ineffective — or positively destructive — policies ... Kevin D. Williamson
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 18:16:54 #182
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
pi_61830591
quote:
[With apologies to David Letterman]
Top Ten Reasons to Support The Treasury Bailout Plan (the Goldman Sachs Freedom Act?)

10. The best way to preserve the free market is to have one man in charge of it.
9. Eight years of Bush administration economic policy has worked so well that we need two more years
8. It is important to guarantee each citizen's constitutional right to borrow
7. We needed to replace all the hedge funds that have blown up with one bigger one.
6. There are plenty of unemployed investment bankers who need a job
5. What's good for Goldman Sachs is good for the country
4. Those earlier bailouts were good practice, but now we need to get serious
3. Freeing the banks to loan more will surely mean people will line up to borrow more.
2. The best way to restore confidence in a debt-plagued system is to... issue more debt
1. At least we don't have to say 'No one knows what to do' anymore
pi_61831166
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 18:16 schreef Drugshond het volgende:

[..]
1/10 Van de rappers dankt zijn bestaan in Amerika aan de Nederlanders die zijn voorouders met een cruiseschip uit hun hongerige landen ophaalde om te werken op prachtige plantages.
"Oorlog is de overtreffende trap van concurrentie."
pi_61832542
Amerikaanse beursen kelderen flink nu.
zullen de republikeinen wel de democraten de schuld gaan geven.
want ze moeten meteen zonder vragen stellen dat plan van kameraad Paulson goedkeuren.
zodat ze op Wall Street weer onbeperkt geld naar elkaar kunnen rondsturen.
Dostojewski: "Je kunt je niet van je eigen gezond verstand overtuigen door je buurman op te sluiten."
pi_61832802
Mja, maar nu gaat het weer omhoog.

Iedereen wist dat we na de rally op vrijdag flink omlaag zouden gaan. En voila, dat gebeurde.
Good intentions and tender feelings may do credit to those who possess them, but they often lead to ineffective — or positively destructive — policies ... Kevin D. Williamson
pi_61832946
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 18:16 schreef Drugshond het volgende:

[..]
het pijnlijke is dat het allemaal o zo correct is.
pi_61832967
vooral regionale banken gaan omlaag.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/cp?s=%5EIXF
Dostojewski: "Je kunt je niet van je eigen gezond verstand overtuigen door je buurman op te sluiten."
pi_61832978
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 19:35 schreef Lyrebird het volgende:
Mja, maar nu gaat het weer omhoog.

Iedereen wist dat we na de rally op vrijdag flink omlaag zouden gaan. En voila, dat gebeurde.
omhoog? -2.3% is toch omlaag of ben je nu spontaan Amerikaan geworden
pi_61833277
Nee, nog niet. Daar moet ik nog drie jaar op wachten. Maar een groot deel van mijn aandelen staat nu in de plus en na de magere opening van vanmorgen gaat het nu toch weer lekker snel omhoog.
Good intentions and tender feelings may do credit to those who possess them, but they often lead to ineffective — or positively destructive — policies ... Kevin D. Williamson
pi_61834506
Crude oil surges $25, or more than 23%, to $130, helped by falling dollar and shift to safe-haven assets.
Dostojewski: "Je kunt je niet van je eigen gezond verstand overtuigen door je buurman op te sluiten."
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 20:37:32 #193
78918 SeLang
Black swans matter
pi_61834618
Hebben ze het shorten van olie ook verboden ofzo
"If you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans"
Mijn reisverslagen
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 20:39:43 #194
78918 SeLang
Black swans matter
pi_61834670
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 20:33 schreef Caesu het volgende:
Crude oil surges $25, or more than 23%, to $130, helped by falling dollar and shift to safe-haven assets.
Ja, een paar barrels van die zwarte smurrie in je tuin is tegenwoordig veiliger dan je geld op de bank zetten
"If you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans"
Mijn reisverslagen
pi_61834687
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 20:37 schreef SeLang het volgende:
Hebben ze het shorten van olie ook verboden ofzo
Of is de koers van de dollar leading op dit moment.

Ook weer 3 cent vandaag.
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 20:45:41 #196
78918 SeLang
Black swans matter
pi_61834840
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 20:39 schreef Basp1 het volgende:

[..]

Of is de koers van de dollar leading op dit moment.

Ook weer 3 cent vandaag.
Dat veroorzaakt geen 25% prijsstijging van olie in 1 dag hoor.
"If you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans"
Mijn reisverslagen
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 20:47:43 #197
78918 SeLang
Black swans matter
pi_61834891
Btw: het is wel apart dat alleen het contract dat vandaag afloopt (delivery in October) zo sterk is gestegen.
October: nu $122.60
Novenber: nu $109.22
"If you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans"
Mijn reisverslagen
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 20:56:16 #198
22794 Enchanter
Right you are Ken!!!
pi_61835122
quote:
Op maandag 22 september 2008 20:39 schreef Basp1 het volgende:

[..]

Of is de koers van de dollar leading op dit moment.

Ook weer 3 cent vandaag.
Als het zo door gaat , haalt 'ie de 4 cent ook nog wel
Ik ben inmiddels overleden
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 22:01:22 #199
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
  maandag 22 september 2008 @ 22:03:47 #200
89730 Drugshond
De Euro. Mislukt vanaf dag 1.
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