Oorlog in Oekraïne #761: Bilhorod holds

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 22:55 schreef BlaZ het volgende:

[..]
Eens, dat geeft echter wel problemen met expresidenten die dan aangeklaagd kunnen worden.

Niet mijn probleem, ze moeten met hun tengels van m’n stad afblijven en in de tussentijd adviseer ik ze om niet over het ICC te praten zolang ze dit overeind houden.

Hoewel ik inhoudelijk op de Amerikaanse lijn zit mbt ASML ten opzichte van de Nederlandse koopman lijn had je in ruil voor het export verbod van ASML machines naar China best kunnen eisen dat ze die wet (hoewel formeel geen invasions act maar wel een wet die onze soevereiniteit niet echt in acht neemt) in ruil daarvoor intrekken want die slaat echt nergens op.

https://www.reddit.com/r/(...)_patriot_systems_in/
Ukrainian air defense uses Patriot systems in ways that surprised the US – expert interview

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:14 schreef Ulx het volgende:
[ twitter ]

Rusland volgt het voorbeeld van Arkansas.

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:14 schreef Ulx het volgende:
[ twitter ]

The fuck what now?

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:31 schreef Barbusse het volgende:

[..]
The fuck what now?

Mannen moeten vechten aan het front, dus die kinderen moeten hun werk overnemen. Maar ik vraag me wel af of het een goed idee is om zo jong al wodka te gaan zuipen en moeder de vrouw in elkaar te slaan. Want iets anders doet de gemiddelde Rus niet. Maar ok, andere cultuur.

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:37 schreef Ulx het volgende:

[..]
Mannen moeten vechten aan het front, dus die kinderen moeten hun werk overnemen. Maar ik vraag me wel af of het een goed idee is om zo jong al wodka te gaan zuipen en moeder de vrouw in elkaar te slaan. Want iets anders doet de gemiddelde Rus niet. Maar ok, andere cultuur.

Als de gemiddelde Rus zo in elkaar zit kan men er net zo goed op tijd mee beginnen, maakt het allemaal toch geen zak uit.
Je kan het ook zien als de zoveelste slachtoffers van Putin zijn oorlogje.

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:41 schreef Nebelwerfer het volgende:

Je kan het ook zien als de zoveelste slachtoffers van Putin zijn oorlogje.

We zullen zien of moedertjes braaf hun kinderen afgeven of niet.

https://www.reddit.com/r/(...)om_of_russia_legion/
The commanders of the Freedom of Russia Legion & RVC recently returned to Ukraine to speak to Ukrainian & international journalists. They confirmed that the operation was a success, and that their total losses were 2 killed and 10 wounded. In return, they destroyed a Russian motorised rifle company

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:47 schreef Ulx het volgende:

[..]
We zullen zien of moedertjes braaf hun kinderen afgeven of niet.

Men weet het vast leuk te verpakken. In Nederland zien we kindertjes die propjes prikken met school als een goed ding, zo zullen de Russen ook klusjes kunnen verzinnen die bijdragen aan een betere samenwerking.

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:50 schreef Nebelwerfer het volgende:

[..]
Men weet het vast leuk te verpakken. In Nederland zien we kindertjes die propjes prikken met school als een goed ding, zo zullen de Russen ook klusjes kunnen verzinnen die bijdragen aan een betere samenwerking.

Loopgraven graven. Mijnen neerleggen. Dat soort dingen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/(...)any_says_ukraine_to/
The Leo 1 was designed in the era before composite armour was developed and when HEAT was king. At that time, there was no thickness of RHA that could stop a HEAT round, so the Leo 1 didn't try.

Leo 1 mounts enough armour to be small arms and autocannon proof, and artillery shell splinter proof, but not enough to resist dedicated anti-tank weapons.

Instead, it was designed to be a tank race car, with absolutely insane mobility. Furthermore, it fitted the incredible L7 105mm rifled gun, with HEAT, HESH, HE, canister, and APFSDS ammunition. It has 2-axis mirror gun stabilization, laser rangefinder, dynamic lead, and thermal sights - and the FCS is equal to or better than most Abrams.

It's a "shoot and scoot" tank, intended to pop up hull-down on a crest, fire a couple of rounds off, then back off the crest, jockey around, and pop up someplace else.

Your armour thickness is irrelevant if you don't get hit.

It will absolutely murder T-54/55, T-62, and any flavour of BMP or BTR. On later model T-72 and T-80 it will struggle somewhat on the frontal arc, depending on which flavour APFSDS it is carrying and if the target has (functional) ERA and/or later armour arrays. It will work just fine as an infantry assault HE and MG slinger especially if the combat team commander has his shit together and has good suppressing fire down, and it can close distance like a motherfucker (and it can reverse a hell of a lot faster than 4 km/h).

It is absolutely vulnerable to modern ATGMs. For command-steer missiles like SAGGER/SPIGOT it can theoretically dash to cover, but that is super terrain dependent and cannot be counted on. Something like Javelin would just outright kill it.

It cannot take tank HEAT/APFSDS hits on the frontal arc like Leo2 and Abrams can, and it doesn't have the pure anti-armour punch of either of the 120mm tanks, but it can still hit movers 4km out, and the thermal makes it hard to hide from. It's a great tank in the defense, assuming it has hull-down terrain to work with, and it can be a hell of a pursuit/recce vehicle so long as it isn't dealing with ATGMs.

A squadron of Leo 1 that sneaks through a gap or follows up a breach, running amok in the rear, is a very real threat.


================================

In a nutshell, the three characteristics of a tank are firepower, mobility, and protection, and firepower can be broken down into accuracy and penetration.

In WW2, all armour was some form of solid steel, usually some form of Rolled Homogeneous Armour (RHA) which is steel plates that have been squished between rollers to make it denser.

There was a (literal) arms race where someone would add more armour, then someone would counter it with a bigger gun, then someone would counter with more armour, and so on, and so on.

Then someone invented a new type of ammunition called HEAT - High Explosive Anti Tank. HEAT is kinda like a gun that shoots another gun that goes off when it hits the target - so it doesn't care about range (where solid shot loses penetration with range as the shell slows down) and because it is always point-blank, it has very, very high penetration. So much so that it requires so much steel to stop it that a tank with enough armour to protect against HEAT would be too heavy to move.

So in the West, we got a generation of tanks that abandoned armour (protection) for mobility and accuracy. The idea was to have a fast tank with a computer-controlled fire control system (FCS) that would see the other guy first and hit him with the first round, then scoot out of the way so his friends couldn't hit you back.

Tied into this was the development of thermal imaging, which can see in the dark and see through most camouflage.

The epitome of this style of tanks was the Leopard 1 - just enough armour to be safe against infantry and non-direct-hit artillery, but don't even try to protect against HEAT. Use the weight savings to carry a big ass gun, a really powerful motor, and the computers and optics so that you can hit a moving target 3km away while driving at 60 km/h cross country yourself.

Then someone discovered that you could beat HEAT with a layer-cake armour array made up of steel plates, ceramic plates, and rubber slabs. This was heavy and bulky, but it was HEAT-proof (ish). So the next generation of tanks (Leopard 2 and Abrams) kept the mobility and firepower of the Leo 1, but added the new protection from the new composite arrays. And then they added an even bigger gun

quote:

Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:51 schreef Ulx het volgende:

[..]
Loopgraven graven. Mijnen neerleggen. Dat soort dingen.

Ja joh, anders komen ze om in westerse rommel.
Mooi in 1 lijn met de papieren tanks op het schoolplein ook.

Tragisch is het wel.

Oh.



Het zou wel mooi zijn om een goeie fik daar te zien.

quote:

Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:53 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:
https://www.reddit.com/r/(...)any_says_ukraine_to/
The Leo 1 was designed in the era before composite armour was developed and when HEAT was king. At that time, there was no thickness of RHA that could stop a HEAT round, so the Leo 1 didn't try.

Leo 1 mounts enough armour to be small arms and autocannon proof, and artillery shell splinter proof, but not enough to resist dedicated anti-tank weapons.

Instead, it was designed to be a tank race car, with absolutely insane mobility. Furthermore, it fitted the incredible L7 105mm rifled gun, with HEAT, HESH, HE, canister, and APFSDS ammunition. It has 2-axis mirror gun stabilization, laser rangefinder, dynamic lead, and thermal sights - and the FCS is equal to or better than most Abrams.

It's a "shoot and scoot" tank, intended to pop up hull-down on a crest, fire a couple of rounds off, then back off the crest, jockey around, and pop up someplace else.

Your armour thickness is irrelevant if you don't get hit.

It will absolutely murder T-54/55, T-62, and any flavour of BMP or BTR. On later model T-72 and T-80 it will struggle somewhat on the frontal arc, depending on which flavour APFSDS it is carrying and if the target has (functional) ERA and/or later armour arrays. It will work just fine as an infantry assault HE and MG slinger especially if the combat team commander has his shit together and has good suppressing fire down, and it can close distance like a motherfucker (and it can reverse a hell of a lot faster than 4 km/h).

It is absolutely vulnerable to modern ATGMs. For command-steer missiles like SAGGER/SPIGOT it can theoretically dash to cover, but that is super terrain dependent and cannot be counted on. Something like Javelin would just outright kill it.

It cannot take tank HEAT/APFSDS hits on the frontal arc like Leo2 and Abrams can, and it doesn't have the pure anti-armour punch of either of the 120mm tanks, but it can still hit movers 4km out, and the thermal makes it hard to hide from. It's a great tank in the defense, assuming it has hull-down terrain to work with, and it can be a hell of a pursuit/recce vehicle so long as it isn't dealing with ATGMs.

A squadron of Leo 1 that sneaks through a gap or follows up a breach, running amok in the rear, is a very real threat.

================================

In a nutshell, the three characteristics of a tank are firepower, mobility, and protection, and firepower can be broken down into accuracy and penetration.

In WW2, all armour was some form of solid steel, usually some form of Rolled Homogeneous Armour (RHA) which is steel plates that have been squished between rollers to make it denser.

There was a (literal) arms race where someone would add more armour, then someone would counter it with a bigger gun, then someone would counter with more armour, and so on, and so on.

Then someone invented a new type of ammunition called HEAT - High Explosive Anti Tank. HEAT is kinda like a gun that shoots another gun that goes off when it hits the target - so it doesn't care about range (where solid shot loses penetration with range as the shell slows down) and because it is always point-blank, it has very, very high penetration. So much so that it requires so much steel to stop it that a tank with enough armour to protect against HEAT would be too heavy to move.

So in the West, we got a generation of tanks that abandoned armour (protection) for mobility and accuracy. The idea was to have a fast tank with a computer-controlled fire control system (FCS) that would see the other guy first and hit him with the first round, then scoot out of the way so his friends couldn't hit you back.

Tied into this was the development of thermal imaging, which can see in the dark and see through most camouflage.

The epitome of this style of tanks was the Leopard 1 - just enough armour to be safe against infantry and non-direct-hit artillery, but don't even try to protect against HEAT. Use the weight savings to carry a big ass gun, a really powerful motor, and the computers and optics so that you can hit a moving target 3km away while driving at 60 km/h cross country yourself.

Then someone discovered that you could beat HEAT with a layer-cake armour array made up of steel plates, ceramic plates, and rubber slabs. This was heavy and bulky, but it was HEAT-proof (ish). So the next generation of tanks (Leopard 2 and Abrams) kept the mobility and firepower of the Leo 1, but added the new protection from the new composite arrays. And then they added an even bigger gun

Vereist een hele andere training dus. Ook niet geschikt voor elke situatie.

Luchtalarm in Kyiv

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:59 schreef Starhopper het volgende:
Luchtalarm in Kyiv

Brandalarm in Moskou.

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Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:53 schreef Ulx het volgende:
Oh.

[ twitter ]

Het zou wel mooi zijn om een goeie fik daar te zien.

Verbranden van geheime documenten?

Assault Squad "Storm".
110th separate motorized rifle brigade of the RF Armed Forces.
Prisoners of war.

1) Captain Makarov Oleg Sergeevich
09/27/1978,
Yekaterinburg city,
Commander of the 1st Assault Platoon

2) Junior Lieutenant Chausov Pavel Aleksandrovich,
02/28/1981,
Saraktash, Orenburg region,
Commander of the 2nd Assault Platoon

3) Lieutenant Makhmutov Vadim Eduardovich,
11/10/1993,
Orenburg,
Commander of the 3rd Assault Platoon

Translation:

«...We would like to appeal to Supreme Commander V. Putin and Minister of Defense Shoigu. Pay attention to the negligence of the 110th regiment of the DPR, they send us to slaughter every time like meat. Firstly, there is no promised support either from the Ministry of Defense [of Russia] or from the Donetsk People's Militia [ "Donetsk People's republic"]. Secondly, in terms of armament: the machine guns are all old 80s. Not enough ammo for machine guns. Ammunition is running out and is not issued. Not enough mines for mortars. Shortage of military equipment.
-- No moral and psychological support for combat units. We are afraid to go to the front line because there is no support of aviation or military equipment. Why did you send us? Just stupid like minced meat ? to destroy us?
-- During storms, we have 200 [?] and 300 [?] and we cannot pull them out due to shelling.
-- We decided to voluntarily surrender.

quote:

Op woensdag 24 mei 2023 23:51 schreef Ulx het volgende:

[..]
Loopgraven graven. Mijnen neerleggen. Dat soort dingen.

En nog geen week later mogen die kinderen - die nog niet eens aan het puberen zijn - met een schep Oekraïnse linies bestormen ter meerdere eer en glorie van moedertje Rusland.