VS - Culture Wars, Voter Fraud & Secret Agendas

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Op zondag 4 september 2022 00:08 schreef SnertMetChoco het volgende:

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🤡"Op een niet legale manier een verkiezingsuitslag beïnvloeden betreft moorden" 🤡

Niet legaal noem ik normaal illegaal. Curieus dat je er hier voor kiest dat niet te doen. Maar, je bent dus van mening dat Trump gefraudeerd heeft?

En nee, je kunt en frauderen en een coup plegen. Het is niet of/of. Net zoals je kunt moorden en een coup plegen als het doel is om de macht illegitiem te grijpen.

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Op zondag 4 september 2022 00:08 schreef SnertMetChoco het volgende:
Waarom denk jij dat Trump erop aanstuurde fake electors naar Washington te sturen en waarom moest Pence van Trump de uitslag niet accepteren en waarom moest Pence onder druk gezet worden door de menigte die op het "stop the steal" feestje afkwamen? En waarom werd de menigte maandenlang voorgelogen over een zogenaamd gestolen verkiezing terwijl velen van Trumps inner circle getuigden dat dit gelul was en hem dat ook vertelden? Wat was het doel anders dan illegitiem de macht te behouden ten koste van de inkomende regering?

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Op zondag 4 september 2022 00:08 schreef SnertMetChoco het volgende:
Ik weet niet goed waar je op doelt en het bevordert zo te zien verder geen discussie. Mijn bingo-kaart werd wel snel gevuld, dus dank daarvoor.

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Op zondag 4 september 2022 00:08 schreef SnertMetChoco het volgende:
Je zult inderdaad weinig media horen over een willekeurige blogpost over een poll met een marginaal verschil jaren terug.

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Op zondag 4 september 2022 00:08 schreef SnertMetChoco het volgende:
Ik post de relevante grafiek maar even hier:

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Waar zouden deze puntjes anno 2022 op staan denk je? Je denkt dat het ongeveer gelijk blijft?

Wat denk je van deze reeks aan polls en waar denk je dat dit anno nu op zou staan?
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Of nog een ander perspectief snel na de verkiezingen:
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Vegeleken met na 2016:
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Marginaal verschil in lijn met de blogpost, maar een hoeveelheid die geen sektarische hoeveelheid aanneemt in tegenstelling tot ...

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Op zondag 4 september 2022 00:08 schreef SnertMetChoco het volgende:
Je bent het er verder wel mee eens dat het laakbaar is als politici zonder bewijs maar roepen dat ze verloren hebben ... waarmee de optie dus wordt "ik win of er is gefraudeerd"?

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Op zondag 4 september 2022 17:05 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

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Nee, Trump probeerde te voorkomen dat de verkiezingsuitslag uit werd gevoerd, waarmee hij de macht af zou pakken van de legitiem gekozen president. Welke stappen ontbreken volgens jou dan nog om het een coup poging te noemen?

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Was the U.S. Capitol riot really a coup? Here’s why definitions matter.

Calling this a coup obscures important dynamics.

On Wednesday, an angry partisan mob, some of them armed with lead pipes, chemical sprays and guns, rampaged through the U.S. Capitol, interrupting the formal process of confirmation of the presidential election. It was a deeply troubling effort to derail democracy and steal an election. There are important reasons, however, that should keep analysts from referring to the events as a coup attempt.

What defines a coup attempt?

Although scholars differ in how they define coup attempts, most definitions have a common core of agreed-upon conditions. In my book, “Seizing Power,” I define a coup attempt as an explicit action, involving some portion of the state military, police or security forces, undertaken with intent to overthrow the government.

What occurred on Wednesday meets some — but not all — of the conditions to be a coup attempt. Efforts to block the transfer of power to the legitimate victor of an election meet the intent portion of the definition, even if the person who is overthrowing the government is also the incumbent. But the raid on the nation’s capital in this instance was committed by a mob, not the country’s own armed forces. It is the involvement of state security forces that critically separates a coup attempt from an assassination, an invasion, an insurrection or a civil war.

This is an insurrection — not a coup

What occurred is better described as an insurrection, since it was a violent uprising by citizens against the government. Those bearing arms were civilians, members of the public. This is different from a coup, where a branch of the government uses state forces to attempt to seize power — and this distinction matters.
Here’s why: Definitions matter because they direct our attention toward key people or groups and suggest effective responses. The wrong definition obscures our understanding and directs us away from the critical parts of the problem.

There are very different ways to try to undercut democracy. A coup is like being robbed at gunpoint. But Trump’s attempt to convince Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, to “find” enough votes to overturn his defeat was more like a swindle, with Trump attempting to talk Raffensperger into handing over his wallet. The attack on the U.S. Capitol was more forceful, yet still different from a coup, more like somebody grabbing your wallet. All three are forms of theft, but the forms are very different, and the responses differ accordingly.

Calling this a coup obscures important dynamics

Calling something a coup attempt turns our attention toward the state. But what is striking about Trump’s behavior is that he is acting as if he is a private citizen rather than president of the United States. He is stirring up protesters, but not using state security forces; he is attempting to wheedle Raffensperger into committing electoral fraud but not — other than vaguely threatening Raffensperger with criminal consequences — using state authority to coerce Raffensperger into doing so.

Trump is able to engage in these anti-democratic actions because of the people who are voluntarily supporting him — not because he is the commander in chief. Those who want to prevent insurrection could respond in a number of ways. One path, taken by Twitter and Facebook, was to suspend Trump’s account, thus taking away his megaphone at a time when his remarks might whip up violence.

Another approach is to make it clear to the other politicians who are helping him undermine democracy that there is no return to respectability or business as usual afterward. Would they choose opportunistic behavior in the moment if they knew they would pay the cost of being associated with a rejection of democracy for the rest of their lives? Would they undercut democracy if it shut the door to lucrative employment as a lobbyist? Would they be willing to be shunned socially for decades?

The point is not the specifics of the response, but rather that the diagnosis suggests an analysis and an appropriate reaction. Compared to a coup, an insurrection involves a different set of people, communication is used differently, the role of the police is different, and the remedies are different. The terminology matters because it illuminates the dynamics of this event and how they are different from other kinds of events.

What might make this a coup?

There is one possibility wherein the current scenario might become a coup, and that is if there are large-scale demonstrations and the military refuses to intervene to stop them, and instead sides with the protesters. This sort of coup undergirds most revolutions. The successful Arab Spring revolutions of Tunisia and Egypt were both popular uprisings and coups.

Based on our best current information, however, there will be no Trump Spring or Trump revolution. Despite the initial breach, government security forces ultimately worked to protect Congress. There also is no sign that military forces will do anything other than support President-elect Joe Biden and the transition. And the fact remains that the police have both the training and manpower to deal with the current scenario, guaranteeing that protests remain peaceful and that those who have committed crimes or are planning to do so will be arrested.

Based on what we know now, this was no coup. And because they lack the protection of state authority, this small rabble of violent partisans can be easily dealt with.

Even if the mob storming the Capitol does not constitute a coup attempt, the attempted insurrection still raises concerns for democracy. Citizens and leaders hoping to protect democracy might focus their efforts on the opportunistic politicians who are choosing to reject democratic norms and undermine democratic legitimacy in a moment of weakness. Without these enablers, even a charismatic leader can do nothing.

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Op maandag 5 september 2022 04:41 schreef QAnonn het volgende:

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Het is rustig met de blauwen hier, zijn ze wakker geworden? Geen nachtelijke updates meer etc.

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Op maandag 5 september 2022 11:08 schreef fliert het volgende:
^

Zou het misschien te maken hebben met het bedenkelijke niveau hier? Discussiëren met lieden die zeker te weten dat Trump de verkiezingen gewonnen heeft is lastig. En vermoeiend. En het is warm.