Oproep tot tweede referendum Brexit. #2

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Op zaterdag 25 juni 2016 19:08 schreef 99.999 het volgende:

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Waarom kunnen er geen degelijke economische analyses gemaakt worden?

Lijkt me echt aannemelijker dan het grote complot.

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Op zaterdag 25 juni 2016 19:16 schreef 99.999 het volgende:

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Bijzondere redenaties wel weer Ryan .

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Blind zeker niet maar er zit in de analyses best een gezonde dosis logica die volgens mij niet te negeren is.

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Op zaterdag 25 juni 2016 19:14 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:

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Ja, het is vaak niet meer dan opgeblazen lucht. Geschiedenis is wat anders natuurlijk.

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Teebs 8h ago

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If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

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Op zaterdag 25 juni 2016 19:23 schreef 99.999 het volgende:

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De geschiedenis leert ons dat samenwerken meer oplevert dan isolationisme .

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Op zaterdag 25 juni 2016 19:31 schreef 99.999 het volgende:

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In grote lijnen niet eens zozeer.

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Op zaterdag 25 juni 2016 19:36 schreef 99.999 het volgende:

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Niet meer naar het verleden en niet meer naar de toekomst kijken om ontwikkelingen te duiden. Dan blijft er weinig over

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Op zaterdag 25 juni 2016 19:23 schreef icecreamfarmer_NL het volgende:

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http://www.theguardian.co(...)ote#comment-77205935

Ik denk een zeer rake analyse.

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Op zaterdag 25 juni 2016 19:41 schreef JerryWesterby het volgende:

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Heel raak. En ik denk dat veel Brexit stemmers hun stem zagen als niet meer dan een mopperende protest stem in een referendum dat toch wel uit zou pakken in een ja stem voor de EU. En een Boris Johnson zag het vooral als goed voor zijn carriere als EU skepticus. Niet als iets dat hij zelf uit zou moeten gaan voeren als premier. Zijn hele speech had iets van: 'oh jé, wat heb ik nu gedaan'.

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exiledlondoner 8h ago

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...and with one bound we were free. Everyone held their breath as the envelope was opened; the envelope that contained the plan. “It’s empty” said the master of ceremonies. “There is no plan.” “Well, there’s no rush” said Boris sheepishly. “We can make it up as we go along.” “But what about the 350 million?” we asked. “What about bringing immigration down to five figures? Haven’t you discussed it with anyone?” “Never mind all that; this is about taking back control” said Boris.....

There is no plan. We voted to leave the EU come hell or high water. Maybe Boris and Co will rustle up something approaching a plan, but we didn’t vote for that; we voted for a fantasist’s wish list. Of course Boris wasn’t that fantasist, and nor was his friend Michael Gove; they were just the front men for the dreams of the little-Englanders and xenophobes who were just a bit too wild-eyed and bonkers to lead the campaign themselves. Boris and Gove saw the opportunity and grabbed it with both hands. They didn’t expect to win; that wasn’t the point. The idea was to put them in pole position to replace Cameron and Osborne when the time was right. For that they didn’t need a plan; just the confidence to pretend that there was one. Brexit would be rejected, and nobody would ever ask to see the plan.

Boris and Gove move in rarefied circles. How could they know that there were were millions of people who were stupid enough to believe that they had a plan? After all, Farage, Hannan and the other swivel-eyed nutters had never managed to sell it to more than a handful of people. Could they really have foreseen their own persuasiveness?

So where are we? Year zero, or if you prefer, a putative North Korea. There is nothing in place. Nothing has been agreed. Somehow they have to come up with a plan that takes us from year zero towards the sunlit uplands they sold to the uneducated and gullible. Already they’re jettisoning their more fantastic promises. The 350 million isn’t going to end up in the NHS (because it doesn’t really exist), free movement of people might not be curtailed (remind what was this all about?), and EU funding might not be replaced after Brexit (a bit of a shock to some of the places that voted for it). Even these new scaled-down ambitions haven’t actually been agreed – we could end up with nothing at all apart from control and sovereignty; two things that North Korea has in abundance....

Meanwhile our young people will have to sit and wait to find out the extent to which their futures have been wrecked by unscrupulous politicians exploiting thick voters. I spent ten years in Europe; not sunning myself on a beach, but working, buying a house, and building a life. The next generation may not get that opportunity; they will likely grow up in a much more closed society than I did. In ten years time there will far more remain voters alive than leave voters – leave voters tend to be much older. I wonder what the future generations will think about those who voted to wreck their futures. Will they see them as selfish, or stupid? Probably a bit of both? And what about the politicians who lied to them; some for their own selfish ambitions? Will Boris and Gove be forgiven?