Oorlog in Libi� #117 Libi� wil Gadaffi terug

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Op zondag 19 april 2015 17:59 schreef J0kkebr0k het volgende:

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Vele dode soldaten vind je het wel waard?

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Op zondag 19 april 2015 19:02 schreef J0kkebr0k het volgende:

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Waarom zouden westerse soldaten de shit van idiote islamitische facties moeten gaan oplossen? Mensen daar zitten helemaal niet oo interventie te wachten. Sterker nog, ze keren zich dan tegen de westerse militairen.

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Op vrijdag 17 april 2015 23:19 schreef Roceco het volgende:
Net een prima reportage van Jan Eikelboom over Libie, waarin hij terugging naar plekken in oost Libie waar hij in februari 2011 (optimistische) reportages had gemaakt. Terugkomende conclusie daarin: zie titel van dit topic.
Samengevatte mening van de geinterviewden: 'Khaddafi was corrupt, negeerde mensenrechten, maar door zijn ijzeren greep op de macht konden we in ieder geval veilig over straat'.

Zelfs een weduwe van een rebellenstrijder die in de strijd tegen Khadaffi om het leven kwam erkent dat haar man voor niets is gestorven.... Dat noem ik toch wel het toppunt van desillusie.

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During the coup, Roosevelt and Wilber, representatives of the Eisenhower administration, bribed Iranian government officials, reporters, and businessmen. They also bribed street thugs to support the Shah and oppose Mosaddegh.

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Op maandag 20 april 2015 00:03 schreef sp3c het volgende:
paar honderd (paar duizend voor een wereldstad) man en een paar kisten vol munitie en geweren en je neemt elke stad ter wereld in, dat is niet zo heel moeilijk

zo'n stad in bezit houden als het leger polshoogte komt nemen is een stuk lastiger

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Over the course of three days, civilians opposed to the 42-year rule of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi managed to outlast and overpower a fortified base guarded by detachments of several Libyan military units, one of them the feared and reportedly highly trained Khamis Brigade - a special forces unit led by Gaddafi's youngest son.

In the end, both anti-government protesters and Gaddafi loyalists lost hundreds and many more were wounded, and Gaddafi's forces fled the city.
http://www.aljazeera.com/(...)113175840189620.html

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Op zondag 19 april 2015 23:36 schreef JaJammerJan het volgende:
Als het Westen zich niet met Libi� bemoeit had, dan was er denk ik niet eens een grootschalige opstand geweest in Libi�.

15 Februari was er een eerste teken van opstand in Benghazi met rellen in de nacht.
18 Februari was Benghazi ingenomen door rebellen. Ze waren toen al zo sterk dat het leger ze al niet meer tegen kon houden (?!?).

Geweldloze demonstraties zijn er in Benghazi nooit geweest in die periode, en blijkbaar waren de rebellen vanaf begins af aan al zo sterk dat ze in 3 dagen een hele stad in kunnen nemen. Dat laat naar mijn mening zeer duidelijk zien dat er buitenlandse invloeden waren die die opstand toen hebben aangespoord. Ik vraag me af hoe grootschalig deze buitenlandse hulp was en hoeveel buitenlandse rebellen er toen al in het land waren.

Toen ze eenmaal Benghazi en andere steden ingenomen hadden, werden ze alweer snel verdreven door het Libische leger en enkel 6 maanden aan NATO bombardementen kon de rebellen tot een overwinning doen leiden. Zonder die NATO steun had Ghadaffi binnen 3 maanden het land zeer waarschijnlijk weer volledig onder controle en was Libi� 4 jaar (en counting!) aan leed bespaard.

Ik kan overigens niet wachten om over 60 jaar weer documenten te zien van de CIA en MI6 dat de revolutie in Libi� inderdaad door het Westen gecre�erd is, zoals bij Iran in 1953.

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Zoiets dus, maar dan voor Libi�

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Obama’s Murky Libya Policy

“We’re going to have to encourage some of the countries inside of the Gulf who have, I think, influence over the various factions inside of Libya to be more cooperative themselves,” was President Obama’s insight Friday into the country’s eight-month-old civil war. Since Qatar has been supporting the Islamist militias who seized Tripoli while the United Arab Emirates has been supporting the internationally recognized Libyan government in Tobruk, it’s not clear why it has taken Obama until now to realize this.

In the coming weeks, it’s possible that the blessedly half-hearted civil war in Libya will sputter to a close through UN-mediated talks that have been taking place in Algeria and Morocco. The aim has been the formation of a “unity government,” ending the war between Libya’s elected, internationally recognized government in Tobruk, under Prime Minister Abdullah al-Thani, and the coalition of Islamist militiamen called Fajr, or Dawn, who took control of Tripoli in August 2014. While the legitimate government has recently made battlefield gains, the country of 6 million remains divided about evenly between the two sides, and even staunch supporters think Fajr could last several more months. About half the country supports Fajr due to complex city-state alliances, including many who don’t consider themselves Islamists. But the core leadership of Fajr is Islamist, with a substantial number of extremists.

Meanwhile, Libya is in dire shape: The black flags of the Islamists still fly in the outskirts of Benghazi, and in the town centers of Derna and Sirte. Islamic State training camps ring Sabratha, home to some of Libya’s storied Roman ruins. It’s estimated that 25–30 percent of the population has left the country, mainly for Tunisia and Egypt. If the Libyans form a workable coalition, and if—a big if—the Fajr Islamist militias actually leave Tripoli and allow a unity government to take control, the country may be able to beat back the Islamic State from the shores of the Mediterranean.

As Obama’s statement Friday suggests, our Libya policy since the death of Muammar Qaddafi in October 2011 has been, at best, one of attempted benign neglect. But at worst, we have been foisting Islamists upon an electorate who rejected them twice. Even our superficially innocuous support for international efforts to name a “unity government” have involved a betrayal of Libya’s democratic aspirations. The talks have drawn a false moral equivalence between the elected Libyan government and the Islamist militias that drove it out of Tripoli in August 2014 by violence.

Americans may not know it, but Libyans like voting. Since Libyans won their freedom in the fall of 2011, they have peacefully participated in four free and fair elections: municipal council elections in fall 2011 and June 2014, and parliamentary elections in July 2012 and June 2014. The problem is, when the Islamists made a dismal showing for the second time in June 2014, they turned to violence.

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Op donderdag 23 april 2015 19:10 schreef pietba het volgende:

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Inderdaad, verschrikkelijk wat de NATO Libi� heeft aangedaan. Dat allemaal omdat de colonel de dollar bedreigde met zijn goudstandaard.

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Op donderdag 23 april 2015 20:02 schreef Frikandelbroodje het volgende:

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Je gelooft in die flauwekul?

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Op donderdag 23 april 2015 20:27 schreef pietba het volgende:

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Nuttige reactie man.

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Nigel Farage: David Cameron 'directly caused' Libyan migrant crisis

Nigel Farage has blamed “fanatical” David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy for the drowning of hundreds of migrants off Italy, saying the exodus was “directly caused” by western intervention in the civil war in Libya.
The Ukip leader said that Nato had destabilised Libya when it launched bombing raids against Col Gaddafi in March 2011, causing the flight of refugees from the country.
He said Britain should offer refugee status to some Libyan Christians.
Up to 700 people are feared dead after a boat carrying migrants capsized off the Libyan coast overnight. Twenty eight people were rescued in the incident, which happened in an area just off Libyan waters, south of the southern Italian island of Lampedusa, an Italian coast guard official said.
If confirmed, it would mean the total dead in the southern Mediterranean is more than 1,500.
• Europe hunts for gangs behind tide of migrant misery
Mr Farage rejected calls for a stronger European response to the crisis.
“It was the European response that caused this problem in the first place. The fanaticism of Sarkozy and Cameron to bomb Libya. They have completely destabilised Libya, to turn it into a country with much savagery, to turn it into a place where for Christians the place is now virtually impossible. We ought to be honest and say we have directly caused this problem”.
“There were no migrants coming in these quantities before we bombed the country, got rid of Gaddafi, however bad he might have been, and destabilised the whole situation.”
“I have not got a problem with us offering refugee status to some Christians from those countries.”
British aircraft were part of a Nato mission to bomb Gaddafi regime tanks in support of rebels.
However, since the toppling of Gaddifi Libya has fragmented with two rival governments and a series of armed militias vying for power.
It came as Mr Farage appealed to Labour voters to keep out the SNP.
"My plea from now until polling day is to Labour voters. Having taken part in the TV debates and seen the dynamics between Ed Miliband and Nicola Sturgeon, it's pretty clear who would wear the trousers. I'm saying to Old Labour, if you are patriotic, if you want a referendum, if you think immigration needs to be controlled, do not vote for Ed Miliband, vote for Ukip."
He said Mr Miliband had presented a "terrific opportunity" by all but ruling out an in-out referendum on EU membership.

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Libyan Prime Minister Abdullah al-Thinni has confirmed the widely held belief among Libyans that Turkey and Qatar are the main supporters of the militias in control of Tripoli since August, after overrunning the capital in a bloody 40-day war, and opposed to his internationally recognized government.

In an April 15 TV interview with RT's Arabic channel during his first visit to Moscow, Thinni said, “[C]ountries are trying to impose fanatical Islamic political views on the Libyan people.” He added, however, “Libyans do not want Islamists to dominate government,” but “welcome their participation” in the political process as long as they play by the rules. Thinni then went further, charging Qatar and Turkey with being the main weapons suppliers of the Islamist-backed militias running the Tripoli-based rebel government.

Many Libyan officials, including the army chief of staff Lt. Gen. Khalifa Hifter, as early as last June accused Ankara of arming and politically supporting the Tripoli-based militias while Doha took care of finances. Thinni also accused the West of turning its back on Libya after helping destroy it when NATO intervened in the 2011 civil war, which led to the fall of the Moammar Gadhafi regime in October that year. He said that Libyans are “disappointed by those who supported us in the beginning and let us down when we most need their help.”​

France, the United Kingdom and the United States, among other countries, have so far refused to allow the UN Security Council to lift the arms embargo imposed on Libya in Resolution 1970, passed on Feb. 26, 2011. The Tobruk-based government has repeatedly asked the United Nations to lift the embargo so it can rearm its struggling military to try to counter the increasingly more powerful Islamists, particularly in Benghazi (in the east), Sirte (in the middle of the country) and Tripoli. Jordan, currently a non-permanent member of the Security Council, along with Egypt, sponsored a draft resolution to this end, but the idea was struck down by the major powers, including the United States, arguing that the UN-sponsored mediation led by Bernardino Leon is approaching a turning point, and the two sides in Libya should therefore refrain from activities that might jeopardize the talks currently underway in Skhirat, Morocco. According to Leon, both sides have agreed to a draft agreement he described as “something that the parties can agree [on].”

In lashing out in Russia, Libya’s prime minister accused Western states of being “contradictory” in their approach to the Libyan conflict, engaging in a double standard. While they accept him and his government as Libya's legitimate representatives, they deny his administration the kind of help it needs to exercise full sovereignty and counter the increasing spread of terror organizations in Libya. In an unexpected turn, it appears that US President Barack Obama is now concerned about the role some Gulf states are playing in Libya, echoing Thinni's assessment. On April 17 Obama told the media: “In some cases, you've seen them fan the flames of military conflict, rather than try to reduce them.”

Thinni's RT appearance was the first time he had spoken out by singling out certain countries that played a central role in bringing down the Gadhafi regime, ultimately handing the country over to their own enemies, namely, extremist Islamists. NATO's eight-month air campaign destroyed much of the Libyan army, and its rebuilding is what took Thinni to Russia in search of arms and training. Moscow has so many problems on its doorstep, however, it cannot offer much assistance unless the embargo is lifted.

Thinni also traveled to Moscow in an attempt to soothe ties with Russia, which have been strained since 2011, when Russia was accused of supporting the Gadhafi regime in the civil war. Indeed, Russia did not support UN Security Council Resolution 1973, which authorized the use of force against Libya at the time. Furthermore, in December 2011 President Vladimir Putin accused the United States of involvement in the killing of Gadhafi.

The Libyan army had been equipped with Russian-made weaponry in the past, and as Thinni noted, tens of thousands of Libyan officers trained at Soviet military academies in the 1970s and 1980s. After Libya was welcomed back into the international community, the Gadhafi regime signed large military and energy sector contracts with Moscow. On his visit, Thinni sought to reactivate contracts concluded during a 2008 visit by Gadhafi to Moscow that some described as a “shopping trip.” Contracts signed then included one to build a railroad from Sirte to Benghazi and major investments in energy and infrastructure.

If Moscow decides to respond to the Libyan cry for help, it will first need to go back to the UN Security Council to pass a resolution suspending the arms embargo or completely lifting it, both of which are unlikely to happen any time soon, unless the talks in Morocco reach a conclusive agreement, another unlikely possibility despite Leon’s optimism.

Until then, Thinni must make do with what is available to his government without expecting much from the international community.

twitter:

AAhronheim twitterde op zaterdag 02-05-2015 om 19:13:33 #ISIS in #Libya executes 3 homosexuals in the courtyard of a mosque & amputate the hand of a thief in #Derna http://t.co/43Z6Rw9zPL reageer retweet

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I think you may have a slight misunderstanding of Gaddafi's true role in Libya, which is understandable considering the decades long propaganda campaign against Gaddafi and Libya. Gaddafi and Libya are subjects I am quite familiar with and I am more than happy to take the time to provide you with information.
Gaddafi wasn't a dictator let alone even the leader of Libya when he died. He hadn't held formal office since early in the 70's shortly after the bloodless coup.
The cult of personality that sprung up around Gaddafi was largely because he was idolized among many Libyans due to the democracy, prosperity and progress he helped facilitate, though he did play it up and used it to his advantage quite well.
As an example of the positive roll Gaddafi had in Libyan society, he and the Libyan government had been slated to receive a reward from the UN for their economic and social progress and for their commitment to human rights just a couple months prior to the NATO destabilization of Libya. (See the following link)
http://www2.ohchr.org/eng(...)n/A-HRC-16-15.pdf[1]
Libya had the highest standard of living in Africa as well as one of the highest literacy rates. Gaddafi also helped the government to devise a plan that turned a huge area of Libya's desert into useable farm land.
http://www.csmonitor.com/(...)gate-desert-farms[2]
Gaddafi was so loved for the reforms he created that many Libyans honored his contribution by calling him the 'brother leader'. (This is in part where the misconception comes in that Gaddafi was a dictator.) It was a fitting informal title because he was not the officially recognized leader but he was highly revered among Libyans.
He was basically the Libyan George Washington, who not only overthrew a corrupt monarchy but his policies took Libya from being the poorest country in the world to the most prosperous in Africa and one of the most prosperous in the ME. And all in a few decades! That is amazing.
Gaddafi was a living hero.
As another example this[3] video shows nearly 2 million Libyans (nearly one third the population of Libya) showing up in Tripoli at Green Square to support Gaddafi and oppose the NATO bombings.
Some important context to keep in mind is that prior to the Green Revolution, Libya was a monarchy and Libyans were used to having a prominent central governing figure, a king, before the peaceful coup in '69. So it was only natural that Gaddafi would be depicted by his supporters (the vast majority of Libyans) as such a figure.
Ultimately, Gaddafi was merely a statesman and adviser to the system of direct democracy known as 'Jamahiriya' that he helped create, and it is a tragic irony that he was doomed in some ways by the very adoration of his fellow Libyans.
As far as the 2011 overthrow of the Libyan government is concerned, it was known that Benghazi was/is a stronghold of radical Islam in Libya and that this area has produced many of the radical insurgents we have fought against in Iraq and which are now threatening to setup an Islamic dictatorship in Syria. The central Libyan government and Gaddafi were opposing these same radicals during the revolution.
The following is an article with quotes from Alan Kuperman an associate with the University of Texas' at the Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs. He has studied Libya and many other African nations by visiting them firsthand. This article refutes the assertion by the Obama administration that Gaddafi was a threat to the armed Islamic rebels. It states numerous historical incidents showing Gaddafi's willingness to peacefully resolve issues with the Islamists rather than using violence.
http://articles.chicagotr(...)-gadhafi-massacre[4]
Who are the Libyan Freedom Fighters and Their Patrons?
http://www.japanfocus.org/-Peter_Dale-Scott/3504[5]
ISIS commander who was killed was former US/NATO backed Libyan rebel leader:
http://english.alarabiya.(...)ed-in-Syria-.html[6]
Qatar major donor for Libyan rebels:
http://freedomsyndicate.com/fair0000/times0067.html[7]
NATO backed Libyan rebels call for government based on Islamic law:
http://www.telegraph.co.u(...)-Islamic-law.html[8]
CIA arms smuggling to Libyan Jihadist rebels:
http://www.telegraph.co.u(...)was-attacked.html[9]
http://www.businessinside(...)-benghazi-2013-8[10]
US government supported and supplied radical Islamic rebels in Benghazi, Misrata, and eastern Libya.
http://www.nytimes.com/20(...)l?pagewanted=all[11]
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article44149[12]
http://www.washingtontime(...)nd-benghazigate/[13]
Here's another bit of info that shows the true colors of the Libyan rebels. They like to fly the flag of Al-Qaeda over the courthouses in Libya. Here[14] and here[15] they are doing it in Benghazi (not a big surprise really because Benghazi is the hotbed of radical Islamism in Libya and where the revolution began as I mentioned before).
The Al-Qaeda flag flying over Benghazi is relevant because western justification for supporting the Libyan rebels was to 'save Libyan lives'. But we shouldn't forget how the US and European countries extrajudicially renditioned people off to Libya to be imprisoned and tortured prior to the 2011 uprising, but then out of the blue decided the government is violating Libyan human rights, even though the west had special operations units on the ground who were actively funding the destabilization of the region, arming and training the radical Islamist rebels prior to the uprising, provoking the government to defend the Libyan people from the Jihadis (just like is happening in Syria).
Claims of human rights abuses though valid, did not warrant the destabilization of a functioning stable government that the majority of Libyans supported. And most importantly, the revolution ultimately resulted in the deaths and injuries of tens of thousands of people, which is a hundred times more than had ever allegedly been wrongly imprisoned, tortured, or killed (many times done on behalf of the CIA).
Intervention failure in Libya has created a civil war.
http://www.independent.co(...)uin-8797041.html[16]
Radical Islamists gaining strength and influence in Libya:
http://www.huffingtonpost(...)e_n_2909693.html[17]
http://www.theguardian.co(...)violence-tripoli[18]
Libya worse off than before intervention:
http://www.economist.com/(...)ar-qaddafis-downfall

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Libya: Is there Really an Alternative to Dialogue?

Libya continues to suffer the consequences from the ongoing political and armed struggle between various Libyan factions. The rise of the Islamic State (ISIS or ISIL) has further complicated matters—as has the reluctance of the international community to act assertively against other spoilers of the democratic process, contributing to Libya’s downward spiral into civil war and anarchy. The dialogue facilitated by the United Nations Support Mission in Libya (UNSMIL) remains the best hope for a political settlement in Libya. However, the dialogue faces huge challenges and was recently dealt a huge setback when the General National Congress in Tripoli and its backers outright rejected a final draft agreement presented by the head of UNSMIL Bernardino Le�n.

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alwasatengnews twitterde op woensdag 20-05-2015 om 09:27:56 4 #Misrata Brigades confirm their support for dialogue, putting an end to the fighting. #Libya http://t.co/MMpGznEO7k http://t.co/uqxOBNzodi reageer retweet

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LibyaAlHurraTV twitterde op woensdag 20-05-2015 om 01:37:37 #Libya: More evidence emerges of troop withdrawals, peace talks between factions. Majority want the conflict to end. reageer retweet

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Gadhafi’s home town Sirte falls to ISIS in anarchic Libya

SIRTE, Libya: Standing guard at his front-line post, Libyan soldier Mohammad Abu Shager can see where ISIS militants are holed up with their heavy weaponry less than a kilometer away.

The militants have effectively taken over former dictator Moammar Gadhafi’s home city of Sirte as they exploit a civil war between two rival governments to expand in North Africa.

“Every night they open fire on us,” said Abu Shebar, who with comrades on Sirte’s western outskirts holds the last position of troops belonging to one of the two warring Libyan governments, the General National Congress, which controls the capital Tripoli and most of the west of the country.

“They are only active at night,” he said, pointing to the militants’ position in a house just down the road blocked by sandbags.

He sleeps in a shed next to his firing positions where used tank shells litter the ground.

-knip-

twitter:

HaraldDoornbos twitterde op woensdag 27-05-2015 om 22:00:32 Ondertussen is #IS nog gezellig aan het trainen in Benghazi, Libie.https://t.co/lKkMNEh0gU reageer retweet

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Clegg’s wife asked former Dutch FM to lobby for member of Gaddafi clique



Nick Clegg’s wife Miriam Gonz�lez asked Dutch top lobbyist Bernard Bot to lobby at the Dutch Public Prosecution Service for a businessman from Colonel Gaddafi’s clique. Bot, previous Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs, now works as a consultant for the Libyan who in the Netherlands is suspected to have diverted at least 28.5 million dollars from Libyan state funds.

Gonz�lez, a partner at law firm Dechert in London, asked Bot for help last year when Clegg was still Deputy Prime Minister for the Liberal Democrats. The suspected Libyan, Ismael A. and his family are clients of Dechert. Ismael (45) is the son-in-law of previous Libyan Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem.

Research by NRC Handelsblad shows that Ismael and his in-laws are being investigated by several countries. Norway, Switzerland, the Netherlands and the United States are investigating the Libyan millions that were stolen by the Gaddafi clique. In diverting the money, Ismael would have cooperated with Mohamed Ghanem, Shukri Ghanem’s son. He was one of Colonel Gaddafi’s confidants. When asked, Ismael denies all imputations.

Gonz�lez and Bot know each other from the period they both worked in Brussels. She worked in the cabinet of European Commissioners Patten and Ferrero-Waldner, he was a permanent representative of the Netherlands to the EU. Bot was Minister of Foreign Affairs from 2003 to 2007. After that, he became a partner at lobbying firm Meines Holla & Partners in The Hague, where he specializes in complex international matters.

In June 2013, it became known that the Dutch Fiscal Information and Investigation Service, FIOD, had raided Ismael’s residence and his company, Palladyne International Asset Management in Amsterdam. Palladyne manages 700 million dollars worth of assets from Libyan state funds. The Public Prosecution Service seized 28.5 million dollars, the amount that would have been diverted.

When Gonz�lez asked Bot for help, the issue had lasted for a year already without any willingness from the Public Prosecution Service to clarify the suspicions of money laundering, fraud and forgery, the former minister says to NRC Handelsblad. According to him, the request was if he could use his “influence” to set the case in motion again. Bot says to have complied with the request after studying the case. The former Minister doesn’t see any problems. The suspicions were “all refuted with rebuttals by the lawyers.”

Subsequently, in letters to the Dutch chief prosecutor, Bot insisted on lifting the seizure of the businessman’s possessions. He also requested that his client be given more information on the investigation, as he confirms to this newspaper. In his letters, Bot wrote that he was no advocate to the suspected Libyan businessman. Now he turns out to be the suspect’s paid consultant.

The Public Prosecution Office doesn’t want to react to Bot’s statements.

Before Gonz�lez joined Dechert at the end of 2011, she was a partner at competing law firm DLA Piper.

Earlier that year, the British press revealed that DLA Piper had lobbied for the Gaddafi regime during negotiations with the EU on illegal migration from Libya to Europe. At the time, the law firm stated Gonz�lez didn’t act on behalf of the Libyan government.

Neil Gerrard, the main lawyer at Dechert working on this file, who also worked at DLA Piper until 2011, does not wish to answer questions about clients. Miriam Gonz�lez does not respond to requests for comments.
Bron: Trouw