Oorlog in Libië #117 Libië wil Gadaffi terug

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Op dinsdag 16 december 2014 20:02 schreef Frikandelbroodje het volgende:

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Jij stelt in die eerdere post dat er geen enkel ongewapend protest plaatsvond destijds. Ik ontkracht die mythe met bronnen. That's it. Jij zegt daarna dat de bron stelt dat er nooit geweld is gebruikt door de oppositie. En dat is nooit door de bron beweert. Dus je leest gewoon wat je wilt lezen.

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However, the 15 February arrest in Benghazi of the prominent
human rights lawyer Mr. Fathi Terbil – which constituted part of a wider anti-
opposition crackdown – sparked a spontaneous mass demonstration in the city. The
authorities attempted to disperse the protest, causing a number of casualties, which in
turn resulted in further public demonstrations.

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On the evening of 15 February, between 500 and 600 demonstrators protested in front of Benghazi's police headquarters after the arrest of human rights later Fathi Terbil. Crowds were armed with petrol bombs and threw stones. Marchers hurled Molotov cocktails in a downtown square in Benghazi, damaging cars, blocking roads, and hurling rocks. Police responded to crowds with tear gas, water cannon, and rubber bullets.[114] 38 people were injured, among them ten security personnel.

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Phase 1: Peaceful Demonstrations

Phase 1 refers to the period from 15 February until the outbreak of a non-international
armed conflict in Libya. In a number of different locations, beginning on 15 February
2011, large numbers of peaceful protestors assembled to demonstrate against Colonel
Gaddafi’s rule and against the suppression of other protests. These peaceful protests
were met with escalating levels of violence.

Police station on fire in Albayda, Libya 2011-02-16

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Gelukkig maar dat deze ooggetuigen dat wel zijn. Je denkt dat ze, samen met de rest, liegt? Bewijs maar.

(bovendien is het niet waar wat je zegt, maar dat terzijde)

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Zeg ik dat? Neen.

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COOPER: We're looking at the video right now. Essentially, they were marching, it looks like, for the most part unarmed and then just got fired upon.

CRAWFORD: Yes, there were a few people, very few people, I would say about half a dozen people, at the head of the group who had -- one person on the car, for instance, had a pistol. One person who was wandering along the side had Kalashnikov slung over his shoulder.

But mostly, the huge majority were just civilians walking, were unarmed, and they were just chanting anti-Gadhafi slogans and calling on him to leave. They walked -- they were marching towards the military lines that had been set up. A tank was in front of (AUDIO GAP) and a number of military vehicles.

And as they got close, they opened fire. And they didn't just open fire once or twice. And they didn't just fire over them. They fired into them. And the casualties were instant and immediate, and they carried on firing.

COOPER: And we're seeing people run away right now from that firing.

What's so important, not only remarkable about your reporting, but what's so important about it is because pretty much each step of the way, you show evidence, direct evidence, irrefutable evidence that the Gadhafi regime is not telling the truth in many of their public statements.

For instance, they repeatedly say they have not fired on unarmed protesters. You personally witnessed them doing just that.

CRAWFORD: They did not just once, but scores of times. I can't even count how many times they did it over the entire period that we were there.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1103/09/acd.01.html

Collateral Murder - Wikileaks - Iraq

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Oh wauw Wat zet je je hier ongelofelijk voor lul zeg. Moet ik je serieus nog bijbrengen welke etnische groepen er leven in Libië? Ooit gehoord van de Toubou? Jeweetwel die donkergekleurde mensen in zuid-Libië die al honderden jaren wonen in dat gebied. Die mensen die volgens Khadaffi geen mensen waren, zoals gebruikelijk bij Arabische nationalisten. Maar echt verbaast ben ik ook niet dat je dit niet weet, daar lees je immers niks van op marxistische sites.

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The Tubu or Toubou (Old Tebu: "Rock People;"[1] also written Tibu, Tibbu, Tebu, Tubu, Tebou, Umbararo) are an ethnic group that live mainly in northern Chad, but also in southern Libya, northeastern Niger and northwestern Sudan.
Numbering roughly 350,000, they are mostly Muslim.Most Toubou are herders and nomads, though many are now semi-nomadic.

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Nee hoor, slechts diegene er kwamen om te vechten voor Khadaffi. En die waren er zeker. Ik ga even quoten wat ik eerder zei.

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Waarom gaf je daar toen geen antwoord op? Waarom herhaal je dit iedere keer, terwijl je weet dit ik hier al een tijd geleden antwoord op heb gegeven? Denk je dat ik na een paar maanden opeens alles vergeet? Ik weet niet welk spelletje je speelt jantje, maar het wordt vervelend.

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Zoals UD al goed zegt, je zegt zelf dus al dat er een luchtmacht is ingezet. Het Pentagon zegt hier ook helemaal niet dat er nul bewijs is, alleen dat ze nog geen bevestiging hebben gehad. Nou dat is balen voor ze zeg.

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Op woensdag 17 december 2014 18:13 schreef JaJammerJan het volgende:

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Ik zal het heel simpel maken, als je begint met het lezen van jouw bron dan kom je bij het stuk 'Conflict Chronology, provides a background to the conflict in Libya'
Hierin beginnen ze met dit stuk:

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Welk beeld schetst dit? "mass demonstration" en "authorities attempted to disperse the protest, causing a number of casualties". Lijkt me heel duidelijk toch? Nou wat er daadwerkelijk die dag is gebeurd in Benghazi:

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Hmmmm, vreemd dat deze 2 situatieschetsen zo TOTAAL verschillend zijn.

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Daarna begint jouw link nog te praten over 2 fasen:

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Opnieuw dezelfde situatieschets: Peacefull Demonstrations en Ghadaffi onderdrukt deze vreedzame protesten.

Police station on fire in Albayda, Libya 2011-02-16

Ghadaffi zal zijn eigen politibureau wel op 16 februari in brand gestoken hebben huh, want de demonstraties waren 'vredig'?

Oftewel: je bron is poep
Maar aangezien ik dit al 2 posts eerder ook duidelijk gemaakt heb en jij het niet wilt snappen, zul je het nu wel nog altijd niet snappen.

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Er was GEEN ongewapend, vredig protest.

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En dat is gewoon propaganda, want er waren geen demonstranten of protesten, alleen aanvallen op overheidsgebouwen in Benghazi.

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Door te claimen dat er op onbewapende burgers geschoten wordt zeg je inderdaad dat het Libische leger de duivel is en je daarin geloofd.

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Net zoals die Alex Crawford overigens. Die claimt dat er op onbewapende burgers geschoten wordt, omdat van een kleine groep mensen die recht op een militaire afzetting aflopen er maar een paar wapens bij zich hebben hoor! De meeste mensen waren onbewapend, dus ze schieten op onbewapende mensen!!

Ik heb naar die bron achter Alex Crawford gezocht en ze zegt daar zelf:

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Ik weet niet wat voor ooggetuigen jij gaat vertrouwen, maar ik zie dat jij het sensatie zoekende, ongenuanceerde type wel betrouwbaar vindt.

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Totaal geen begrip voor de situatie. Politie/ME kan de rebellen niet meer stoppen en er zijn al tientallen doden gevallen aan beide kanten. Het leger wordt ingezet. Wat denk je dat er in de VS of in Nederland zou gebeuren als in zo'n tijd een groep mensen waarvan de voorhoede kalashnikovs en pistolen dragen recht op een militaire afzetting afloopt?

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Eens even kijken:

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Een groep van 350.000 nomaden verspreid over 4 landen, maar voornamelijk uit Chad. Ik generaliseerde aangezien er meer dan een miljoen negers in Libië wonen, wat vrijwel allemaal arbeidsmigranten zijn. Maar omdat er misschien 50.000 Toubou in Libië wonen, nog geen 5% van een miljoen, klopt mijn generalisatie totaal niet en heb jij helemaal gelijk toch?

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Even door de eerste bron gebladerd: vooraal veel geruchten die niet te bevestigen zijn en een paar getuigenissen. Ik heb niet de tijd om al die bronnen te doorspitten, maar jij mag hier posten wat je relevant acht.

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Aangezien Human Rights Watch geen bewijs heeft kunnen vinden en ik in jouw eerste bron enkel getuigen als redelijke bron kan vinden, vraag ik me af, als er daadwerkelijk huurlingen waren, of die überhaupt een significante rol in het conflict hebben gehad. Als er in totaal 1000 huurlingen zouden zijn, dan zou dat te insignificant zijn om je überhaupt zorgen om te maken. Want wat is nou eigenlijk het bezwaar tegen de huurlingen? Dat het een bewijs is dat Ghadaffi in zijn eentje met een gekocht leger tegen het Libische volk vecht? Wil je het namelijk zo ver trekken, dan moet je wel met flinke aantallen en bewijs komen.

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Ze zeggen dat ze enkel 'press reports' hebben. Oftewel dat zou diezelfde propaganda als jouw eerste bron kunnen zijn die claimt dat de demonstraties vredig waren en Ghadaffi zijn eigen politibureaus in de fik heeft gezet.

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‘A Ground Invasion of the Capital Is Imminent’

All-out war is coming to Libya, as rebel militias and a government-in-hiding begin a battle for control of the country.

TRIPOLI, Libya — Zeina, 27, was hanging out her washing when the first Grad rocket smashed into a neighbor’s house at the end of her dusty street. The deafening boom was followed by the telltale buzz of more incoming rockets. Libya’s civil war had landed on her doorstep.

“It started as a normal day — then we heard the sound of shelling and rockets,” said the young mother. “Without warning, they hit our houses. We fled with just the clothes we were wearing.”

Zeina is now crammed together with seven other people in a cinderblock outhouse that is part of Tripoli’s zoo. They are just a handful of the more than 400,000 people who are currently displaced inside Libya, which is witnessing its worst crisis since the 2011 NATO-backed revolt that toppled dictator Muammar Qaddafi.

For three years, Libya has been without a functioning government, police force, or army. The country has been ripped apart by warring fiefdoms of ex-rebels who helped oust Qaddafi but have since directed politics with AK-47s and anti-aircraft guns. This summer, as the battle lines began to harden, two rival factions emerged to vie for control of Libya: On one side is the newly elected parliament that has been banished to the eastern city of Tobruk — supported by the fractured remains of Qaddafi soldiers who defected during the uprising, as well as regional powers like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates. On the other side is Libya Dawn, a self-described revolutionary coalition of militiamen and Islamist-leaning politicians that originated in the western city of Misrata, allegedly backed by Turkey and Qatar.

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UN begins Libya peace talks with two warring sides

United Nations (UN) special envoy FOR Libya Bernardino Leon (5th L) leaves with Libya's warring factions representatives after a photo prior to Libyan talks on January 14, 2015 in Geneva. The United Nations began "long and difficult" peace talks with Libya's warring factions in Geneva, warning they could be the last chance to prevent all-out chaos in the oil-rich country.

UN-brokered peace talks to try and end Libya’s eight-month civil war got under way in Geneva on Thursday, with the participation of officials from both the Islamist-leaning Libya Dawn forces now controlling the capital and the internationally recognised government temporarily quartered in the eastern city of Tubruq.

UN special envoy Bernardino León has been struggling for months to bring together the two warring sides in the conflict that has left hundreds dead, prompted a wave of refugees and drastically lowered the oil-rich country’s hydrocarbon output.

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Turkey’s Proxy War in Libya

Why did Saqr Geroushi, the commander of Operation Dignity’s Libyan air force recently announce that the forces under his command would shoot down Turkish aircraft that entered Libyan airspace without permission? Turkey’s reaction was swift. Its Ministry of Foreign Affairs condemned the threat and indirectly chastised the forces under the command of General Khalifa Haftar, who launched and continues to lead Operation Dignity, and is supported by the United Arab Emirates, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Haftar, in previous statements, has made it clear that he intends to rout and outlaw the Muslim Brotherhood, whose Libyan political affiliate, the Justice and Construction Party (JCP) Turkey has supported since it was first established in March 2012. After the euphoria of the Libyan revolution receded, the JCP failed to broaden its base of support and struggled to capitalize on the Brotherhood’s newfound electoral freedom. As Mary Fitzgerald, a journalist and Libya analyst, notes, Muammar al-Qaddafi’s long suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood has damaged the group’s brand and limited its electoral viability, “while the Brotherhood’s setbacks across the Middle East have further emboldened Libyan anti-Brotherhood activists.”

These Brotherhood setbacks began in Egypt in July 2013 and extended to Libya shortly thereafter. After the overthrow of former Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi, for example, certain elements within the Libyan armed forces, along with anti-Islamist militias sought to take advantage of the region’s anti-Brotherhood sentiment to suppress the movement inside Libya.

To be fair, no outside power had much hope of navigating Libya’s dizzyingly complex political landscape after the revolution. However, Ankara’s support for the Muslim Brotherhood throughout the Middle East irritated most of the Gulf States (with the exception of Qatar), and contributed to a broader opposition to the JCP in Libya. After the July 2013 coup in Egypt, Egyptian strongman General Fatah Al Sisi, working with the United Arab Emirates and other anti-Brotherhood Gulf States, began to support Operation Dignity’s alliance of individual tribesmen and militias fighting under Haftar’s command.

Turkey and Qatar, in contrast, have reported links to Islamist-allied militias, known collectively as the Libya Dawn coalition. Ankara thus became entangled in a proxy battle that has pitted it against the majority of the Gulf States. To this end, in June 2014, Haftar accused Turkey and Qatar of supporting “terror” and called on the “citizens of Turkey and Qatar [to] leave Libya within 48 hours” of his saying so. The Justice and Development Party, or AKP, President Erdoğan’s party, denies these links, arguing that it supports national reconciliation and that it is working with all parties to promote political dialogue.

Two months after Haftar’s accusations, Emirati pilots, operating out of an airbase in Egypt, struck Libyan Islamist-allied militias as they battled rivals in Tripoli. Despite the airstrikes, however, Islamist-allied militias took over Tripoli, forcing Libya’s government, then headed by Abdullah al-Thinni, to flee the capital. Al-Thinni is based in the eastern town of Baida and Libya’s internationally recognized parliament is now based in the eastern city of Tobruk. In Tripoli, the Operation Dawn Islamist-allied coalition asked a failed prime ministerial candidate, Omar al-Hassi to form and lead a new government. To date, no foreign government has recognized al-Hassi’s government, instead viewing al-Thinni as Libya’s legitimate ruler.

However, in late October 2014, Turkey’s special envoy to Libya, Emrullah Işler (who is very close to President Erdogan), met publicly with al-Hassi’s self-declared government in Tripoli; no other country has yet done so. Just two days before the meeting, Isler also announced that Turkish Airlines would resume flights to the city of Misrata, after clashes resulted in the halting of all international flights to and from the city. Misrata’s militias make up the largest component of Libya Dawn, but they reject the Islamist label. Nevertheless, these militias have allied with other Islamist groups, and have been subjected to air strikes (some of which may have been conducted by the United Arab Emirates) in support of Haftar’s forces against militias allied with Operation Dawn near Tripoli.

Turkey has also been accused of having links to Ansar Al-Sharia (ASL) – a jihadist organization based in Benghazi that has been blamed for the 2012 attack on the U.S. consulate in the city. These reported ties prompted one unnamed American official to state, “Washington believes Turkey is partnering with Qatar in providing support to Islamist factions and militias in Libya.” To be fair, the quote may have been in reference to other Islamist militias, like the February 17th Brigade, but that group has now allied itself with ASL in the Benghazi Shura council.

Ankara denies these allegations, but in January 2014, members of ASL flew to Turkey to oversee the delivery of aid to the Syrian towns of Salma and Kasab. During the assault on Kasab, numerous reports emerged suggesting that Turkey allowed a slew of rebel militias, including the al Qaeda affiliated Jabhat Al-Nusra, to transit its territory to attack the town. The town has since been recaptured by the Syrian regime. The boxes that ASL used to deliver the aid were stamped with ASL’s logo and were delivered by men openly brandishing their ASL links with logo-stamped jackets and shirts.

The decision to allow ASL into Turkey raises a number of troubling questions about the AKP’s decision-making, particularly when combined with Turkey’s support for Jabhat al-Nusra in Syria. The AKP rejects any links to these groups, but there is no denying that for five days in January 2014, ASL did operate from Turkey.

More recently, Ankara has been working to support a United Nations sponsored process to end the fighting between Libya Dignity and Dawn. Turkey’s Defense Minister, Ismet Yilmaz, expressed his support for the “elected parliament” in Tobruk, but also indirectly criticized the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, and Haftar, saying, “it is obvious that certain figures led to civilian casualties by launching air strikes in Libya, demolishing the country’s infrastructure and violating international law and human rights, are the ones who made this statement.”

On Jan. 9, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Çavusoğlu, indicated that Işler would return to Libya. The Ministry has not released Isler’s schedule, apart from indicating that he will travel to the southeastern district of Kufra. While nothing has been released, there is speculation that Işler will put pressure on Misratan militias to support peace talks in Geneva. However, at the time of writing, the Geneva process has suffered a setback, after members of the General National Congress (GNC) chose not to attend.

For his part, Çavusoğlu has said, “It’s not possible to ignore the Libyan Constitutional Court’s overruling of the last general elections, nor the realities on the ground.” The statement, which refers to a June 2014 Constitutional Court decision to void the basis for the election (and which, in theory, nullifies the electoral legitimacy of the Tobruk government), suggests that Ankara will continue to lend support to the groups it favors in Libya.

In any case, Ankara’s position remains relatively straightforward. Throughout the conflict, it has shown an affinity for groups allied with Libya Dawn. Absent any significant change, this policy is certain to continue to pit Ankara against Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, and other Arab states suspicious of the Brotherhood and political Islam.

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Revealed: how Blair colluded with Gaddafi regime in secret

Libyan government papers pieced together by team of London lawyers show how UK cosied up to Tripoli over dissidents

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Tony Blair wrote to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi to thank him for the “excellent cooperation” between the two countries’ counter-terrorism agencies following a period during which the UK and Libya worked together to arrange for Libyan dissidents to be kidnapped and flown to Tripoli, along with their families.

The letter, written in 2007, followed a period in which the dictator’s intelligence officers were permitted to operate in the UK, approaching and intimidating Libyan refugees in an attempt to persuade them to work as informants for both countries’ agencies.

Addressed “Dear Mu’ammar” and signed “Best wishes yours ever, Tony”, the letter was among hundreds of pages of documents recovered from Libyan government offices following the 2011 revolution and pieced together by a team of London lawyers.

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AP twitterde op dinsdag 27-01-2015 om 13:27:48 BREAKING: Libyan security official tells TV station that 5 foreigners killed in attack on Tripoli hotel. reageer retweet

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Libya's War-Weary Make Peace?

In war-torn Libya, the future path toward peace may lie not in the meeting halls of United Nations–sponsored talks but in a sprawling dairy factory in the western port city of Misrata. Remarkably, even after months of fighting, it is still churning out delicious fruit yogurt and macchiato ice cream.

The al-Naseem dairy plant is Libya’s largest private enterprise—and one of the few functioning businesses in a country that has been battered by civil war since May of last year. When I toured the factory’s well-groomed grounds in January, al-Naseem’s owner told me he had suffered a 40 percent revenue loss since the start of the conflict. He was tired of fighting and ready for dialogue.

Misrata was the site of the Libyan revolution’s pivotal battle, one which paved the way for the liberation of Tripoli and the fall of Muammar al-Qaddafi’s regime. The city now fields the country’s most powerful and well-organized militias. These armed groups form the bulk of a Tripoli-based coalition called Libya Dawn, a loose collection of Islamists, Berbers, and residents of Tripoli neighborhoods and towns to the west. Since last summer, Libya Dawn has been battling a militia alliance led by Khalifa Hifter, a general who is now backed by the exiled Libyan government in the eastern city of Tobruk—the only authority in Libya recognized by the international community. Both the Tripoli and Tobruk factions claim their own prime minister, parliament, and army.

But Misrata is also home to Libya’s most powerful business community, which includes manufacturing, construction, and transportation industries—all of which depend on access to the rest of Libya. And in this tension—fighters and merchants, side by side—there are reasons for guarded optimism when it comes to Libya’s future as a unified state.

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Libya’s Geneva Talks and the Search for Peace

In Libya, basic services face the prospect of complete collapse as the country’s financial situation spirals out of control. The minister health of the internationally recognized government in the eastern city of al-Beida has warned of an unprecedented humanitarian crisis, worse than that witnessed during the war against the Qaddafi regime in 2011. Armed factions that fought alongside each other to topple the Qaddafi regime fight each other in a never-ending struggle over power and resources, creating the perfect environment for terrorist groups such as Ansar al-Sharia and the Islamic State (ISIS or ISIL) to flourish and threaten the entire region. Despite these thoroughly destabilizing factors, it is not all bad. The Geneva peace talks led by UN Special Envoy Bernardino Leon have gained traction and stand as Libya’s best chance to repair its social and political fragmentation.

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Eljarh twitterde op zaterdag 07-02-2015 om 15:30:25 Some key leaders of Islamist militant groups in #Benghazi have either been killed or fled to Misrata, UK or Turkey. #Libya reageer retweet

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Eljarh twitterde op zaterdag 07-02-2015 om 15:29:42 News coming from #Benghazi suggest the city might be under army's entire control very soon. Will it happen this time? #Libya reageer retweet

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mutaz20042000 twitterde op zaterdag 07-02-2015 om 19:15:15 multiple identical reports indicate that the final push heavy clashes erupted in #Benghazi today. reageer retweet

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Op woensdag 28 januari 2015 05:25 schreef TLC het volgende:
Zo komt er een groepje terroristen een hotel binnenstormen en schieten ze daar -tig mensen dood en dan hoor je er (bijna) niks over. Oh ja, het is niet in de westerse wereld he dus who cares

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Mad Dog: Inside the Secret World of Muammar Gaddafi

Een studie naar macht, uitgeoefend door een tiran die terroriseerde en in verlegenheid bracht. Een 'Groot Dictator' die door zijn met olie verdiende miljoenen alles kon doen wat hij maar wilde. De film is geen biografie maar reconstrueert het paleis van de 'mad king', waar kinderen seksueel werden misbruikt, tegenstanders omgebracht en hebberige handelaars Gaddafi aan de middelen hielpen om nucleaire wapens te bouwen. Van Brazilië tot Beiroet, de Oekraïne tot Oeganda, zoekt Christopher Olgiati vele dubieuze zakenmensen op die meehielpen om Gaddafi's droom te verwezenlijken. Gaddafi werd 20 oktober 2011 vermoord in zijn geboortestad Sirte.

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NOS twitterde op zaterdag 14-02-2015 om 15:08:36 Italië wil ingrijpen in Libië. Premier Renzi wacht op en VN-resolutie die het mogelijk maakt militairen te sturen: http://t.co/vU8wCtKxNR reageer retweet

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Op vrijdag 13 februari 2015 00:40 schreef svann het volgende:
Nog een uurtje Kadaffi op Nederland 2.


http://www.npo.nl/2doc/13-02-2015/VPWON_1236984

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 16:43 schreef Gabrunal_2013 het volgende:

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Dit soort laster wordt nu regelmatig verspreid om de misdadige bombardementen op Libie goed te praten. Simpel te pareren met de vraag of de inwoners van libie nu beter af zijn , dan onder khadaffi.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 16:49 schreef Nintex het volgende:
Italianen naar Libie, dat liep de vorige keer ook goed af en deze keer geen oorlogszuchtige Duitsers om de kastanjes uit het vuur te halen.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 17:30 schreef UpsideDown het volgende:
Mijn zege hebben ze, snel die ISIS kneusjes uit de weg ruimen voor ze nog meer problemen veroorzaken.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 17:37 schreef remlof het volgende:

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En wat is de Caliphate State Tripolitania dan (die hebben net 21 Egyptische Kopten ontvoerd en vermoord) en hoe verhoudt die zich tot ISIS?

http://www.theguardian.co(...)photos-islamic-state

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Op zaterdag 7 februari 2015 20:54 schreef Smack10 het volgende:
Wel fijn voor de inwoners van Libië dat de NAVO daar orde en democratie heeft gebracht.

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Op zaterdag 14 februari 2015 18:38 schreef TweeGrolsch het volgende:

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Net of het ooit zo is dat na het omgooien van een dictator het direct beter gaat. Dat had ook niemand verwacht. Duurt een tijdje.

Kijk naar Polen en Tsjechië. Decennia lang verkracht door de Russen, na het omvallen van de SU ging het aanvankelijk ook slechter. Maar daarna zijn het democratische, redelijk welvarende landen geworden.