Nog nooit in de jungle gelopen zeker?quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 05:45 schreef Mishu het volgende:
Een mens kan tot vijftig dagen overleven zonder eten, verhongering lijkt me dus zeer onwaarschijnlijk.
Vier maanden onderzoek.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 08:47 schreef ..-._---_-.- het volgende:
En waar bestaat die vier maanden onderzoek van jou nou uit? Daar ben ik echt benieuwd naar.
De reden dat ze geen filmpje hebben gemaakt kan zijn dat ze verwacht hadden dat er naar hen gezocht werd. En dus elk moment gered konden worden. Daarom denk ik dat ze tot het laatst samen zijn geweest. Ze hebben hoop gehouden.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 04:09 schreef Libris het volgende:
Het verdwaal verhaal lijkt me eigenlijk erg onlogisch en wel vanwege de werkende camera die ze hadden (na 8 dagen nog door iemand foto's gemaakt).
Stel dat ze verdwaald waren, en langzaam meer honger, dorst kregen, verzwakt waren, dan hadden ze toch wel een afscheidsfilmpje/foto's gemaakt?
Daarnaast hebben ze 1 uur nadat ze de top hebben verlaten 911 gebeld, heb je na 1 uur al door dat je verdwaald bent en dat je de weg niet meer terug kan vinden en dan meteen 911 belt? Lijkt me ook niet.
Het lijkt me meer voor de hand liggen dat ze zijn gevolgd vanaf de pianista, en door geweld om het leven zijn gekomen. Daarna zijn de lichaamsdelen door wilde dieren verplaatst.
Overduidelijke onzin. dat geflits in het donker drie uur lang zou een ontvoerder toch alarmeren? En sinds wanneer bellen boeven steeds met 112?quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 05:05 schreef Mishu het volgende:
Of foto's gemaakt vanuit de plek waar ze gevangen werden gehouden om te proberen iets van de plek te zien want donker?
Of stiekem onderweg tijdens een gijzeling foto's proberen te maken maar wat mislukt want camera zit in zak/kan te weinig licht hebben.
Lijkt mij overduidelijk dat iemand anders in ieder geval met die camera heeft lopen kloten.
Vooral ook door de puin die het meevoertquote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 08:13 schreef El_Matador het volgende:
[..]
Nuttige bijdrage weer. Nee, de kracht van de flash flood komt door de verplaatsing van water. Net als een tsunami.
Met alle respect, maar voor mij is jouw scenario onlogisch. Het eerste deel kan ik me nog voorstellen; Kris (of Lisanne) die de bosjes in loopt om even te plassen en vervolgens "kwijt" loopt. Maar hoe kom je erop dat dat Kris zou zijn? Ik zag gisteren op Eenvandaag dat als eerste is geprobeerd om met de Iphone van Kris 't alarmnummer te bellen. Waarom zou Lisanne naar Kris haar telefoon pakken? Je pakt uit gewoonte (en uit fatsoen) eerst je eigen telefoon, lijkt me.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 06:54 schreef El_Matador het volgende:
Goed, mijn scenario. Commentaar is meer, meer dan gewenst.
====================
Ok guys and gals, after 4 months of research into this case, and after today’s EenVandaag show I formulated a scenario which I consider at this moment the most logical and possible to cover the known facts and especially answering some questions to the “illogical” things we now know about.
I want to ask you to challenge my hypothesis based on facts and logic, not based on preconceived ideas:
Tragic Reencounter
On Tuesday April 1st Lisanne Froon (22) and Kris Kremers (21) looked on the internet and in the folder of their language school for a nice hike for that day. The just learned the day before, to frustration of especially Lisanne, that their voluntary work in Boquete was postponed for a week. Hence they booked two tours with the most experienced guide of the village; Feliciano Gonzalez. He would take the girls to a strawberry farm on Wednesday April 2nd and on a difficult hike Saturday April 5th to the Baru Volcano.
So on Tuesday they looked for a pretty simple hike for that day, saw some hikes to the Lost Waterfalls, others and the Pianista Trail was the one they chose. The read about the Mirador, the continuation of the trail into Bocas del Toro. At about 10:30 that morning they took a taxi to Il Pianista, the restaurant behind which starts the El Pianista trail, following up the El Pianista river. They passed the finca of Lorenzo Gonzalez and arrived at the Mirador at around 13:00 (1 PM). Here Kris took the famous last photo of Lisanne, standing happy on the Mirador. Then they walked on and after about 45 min they silently lost their cell phone coverage.
At around 14:00 Kris and Lisanne arrived at the 1st quebrada or creek (bergbeekje in Dutch). Lisanne took the last photo of Kris here.
They hiked on to the 2nd quebrada where they arrived around 15:00 and here they were completely alone in the forest, saw a small waterfall and wanted to fresh up a bit before hiking back to the Mirador and home to Boquete. With the 3 hour hike they had coming, they would arrive @ Il Pianista again just before dark. They took off their bras which they put in the backpack and enjoyed the cold water coming from the mountain. Kris took the water bottle she had from their backpack and told Lisanne she went for a short private pitstop in the woods before hiking back again to Boquete. This happened more or less at 15:30.
Lisanne stayed behind with the backpack, in which she had the two phones of the girls, the camera and the just taken off bras. Also Lisannes passport and Kris’s insurance card were in the backpack. Lisanne had her own 0.5 l plastic bottle of water.
Lisanne was enjoying the nice area, the swim in the ice cold water which cooled her off pretty quickly. Refreshing. After 15 minutes she still did not see Kris coming back from her pit stop and began to wonder where she’d be, so she shouted to her friend
Kris went a bit into the woods and chose a place to do what she had to do. Here she was completely surprised by some fauna which scared her and she started to run. Because of the direction she could not run back towards her friend, but she ran in the opposite direction away from her. The tapir/swarm of bees/other animal or group of animals formed a barrier to get back to Lisanne and she ran farther away.
In the meantime Lisanne was getting scared something awful had happened and started to look for her friend shouting her name. But Kris, scared as hell, was already too far away in the dense Caribbean side forest that she could not hear her friend calling her. In complete panic, she could not find the way anymore, back to the quebrada. Lisanne in the meantime packed everything they had in their backpack and started to look for her friend. She kept looking in different places but no trace of her poor colleague of Kruispunt Amersfoort.
At about 16:30 Lisanne was in full distress and panic and she started to call 112, the Dutch emergency line and also 911 she tried. No call made it because there was no reception on that side of the Continental Divide.
Because of the sun setting in the West, behind the mountains, darkness fell much earlier than they had experienced the days before in Boquete.
Both girls were now separated from eachother.
In the next days they kept looking for each other and to paths to find their way back to civilization again. At one of these days Kris ended up on the banks of the Changuinola river, in an area where this river was called Culebra. She did not know this and also not that the name was given to the stream because of the abundance of poisonous snakes in the area. Kris waited here at the river bank for her friend to show up, as she expected Lisanne also reaching the river to come looking for her. She waited and waited and no sign of her friend. She started to become very thirsty and hungry and thought she’d needed to look for bananas, nuts, roots or anything edible to stay alive and keep her warm. But what if Lisanne would reach the river side just at that moment? She got an idea; I will leave my short jeans here as a sign, a sign for Lisanne that Kris had been there so if she’d see the jeans she would stay there and wait for her friend to come back with something to eat.
Lisanne on the other hand followed a different route to this river, took a different crossing and kept searching in despair for her lost buddy. While the days passed she kept calling 911 with her phone, also using it (as little as possible) as a light at night. After her own Samsung phone batteries died, she kept doing the same but using Kris’s iPhone to call for help. But nowhere she could get any signal.
The days passed and Kris collected some things to eat and tried to come back to the place she left her jeans. But… it wasn’t there anymore. The heavy rains caused the river to swell rapidly and she lost her only sign and piece of clothing she had. The river started to drop quickly again, the rains stopped and the sun came through. In the heat of the day both Kris and Lisanne suffered. Kris walked along the drying riverbed and at one moment got stuck with her boot in a hole. She tried to get her foot out, but weakened by hunger and thirst she was not able to do it. The only possibility would be to take off her shoe and get her foot out. When she unlaced her shoe, she suddenly saw why the river was called Culebra; it was swarming with snakes in the hole between the rocks and roots. She managed to pull her foot out but didn’t dare to get her shoe with her bare hands. On one sock and one shoe she looked for sticks and stones in the area to make it happen, but unfortunately she did not manage to do it.
In the meantime, still in complete stress and hunger, her friend was looking for Kris wherever she could. She looked along the river but couldn’t find her.
Lisanne used both cellphones to have light and called various times to the emergency line but still no reception in the deserted Nance de Risco area.
The night of the 7th of April to the morning of the 8th Lisanne, weakened by the lack of food, sleep and dehydrated, still in complete distress about her situation, she wanted to keep the little battery she had on her phone and walked along a rocky cliff along the river. She took photos with her camera and tried to get light with it to find her way through the area she was. Curious night eyes came up to the poor girl and she tried to scare away the animals with her photo camera. Some branches, pollen and the vague red rocky surface appeared in 3 out of the 90 pictures she was able to take before the camera batteries died all the way. Soon after this she fell asleep. Next morning she was very ill and could not walk far anymore. She reached more or less the place where the backpack would be found 65 days afterwards. Here she finally deceased by a combination of dehydration, pain and suffering and lack of food and sleep, bites from bugs and snakes.
It is at this place poor Kris would find her friend just 3 days later, on April 11th. The exhausted girl, still without jeans and with one shoe, found the backpack intact and she tried to look for her phone. There was just 1% of battery left which she used to hysterically call 911. In that she failed and in exhaustion she was not able anymore to leave a farewell message for her parents. The camera battery did not survive the lighting-photo taking session Lisanne did 3 days before. She was not able anymore to build a grave for her friend and soon afterwards she died too.
After the death of both young women, the river started to swell again and washed ashore some remains of the girls. Some kilometers upstream the missing shoe of Kris was washed ashore too. In the tropical humid climate of Bocas del Toro province, the bodies quickly disintegrated and washed partly into the river again leaving behind Kris pelvic bone and Lisannes boot and foot close to each other.
The guide that walked the complete trail for days starting April 3rd could not locate the poor girls who were already weakened and searching for food and water. Sinaproc did not go into Bocas del Toro and the parents of the missing girls who arrived April 8th in the morning in Boquete, Panama were unaware of the girls still alive on a mere 17 km from where they were.
In the coming months the climate, bacteria and river swelling and sinking distributed the final remains over a large area.
quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 06:54 schreef El_Matador het volgende:
Goed, mijn scenario. Commentaar is meer, meer dan gewenst.
====================
Ok guys and gals, after 4 months of research into this case, and after today’s EenVandaag show I formulated a scenario which I consider at this moment the most logical and possible to cover the known facts and especially answering some questions to the “illogical” things we now know about.
I want to ask you to challenge my hypothesis based on facts and logic, not based on preconceived ideas:
Tragic Reencounter
On Tuesday April 1st Lisanne Froon (22) and Kris Kremers (21) looked on the internet and in the folder of their language school for a nice hike for that day. The just learned the day before, to frustration of especially Lisanne, that their voluntary work in Boquete was postponed for a week. Hence they booked two tours with the most experienced guide of the village; Feliciano Gonzalez. He would take the girls to a strawberry farm on Wednesday April 2nd and on a difficult hike Saturday April 5th to the Baru Volcano.
So on Tuesday they looked for a pretty simple hike for that day, saw some hikes to the Lost Waterfalls, others and the Pianista Trail was the one they chose. The read about the Mirador, the continuation of the trail into Bocas del Toro. At about 10:30 that morning they took a taxi to Il Pianista, the restaurant behind which starts the El Pianista trail, following up the El Pianista river. They passed the finca of Lorenzo Gonzalez and arrived at the Mirador at around 13:00 (1 PM). Here Kris took the famous last photo of Lisanne, standing happy on the Mirador. Then they walked on and after about 45 min they silently lost their cell phone coverage.
At around 14:00 Kris and Lisanne arrived at the 1st quebrada or creek (bergbeekje in Dutch). Lisanne took the last photo of Kris here.
They hiked on to the 2nd quebrada where they arrived around 15:00 and here they were completely alone in the forest, saw a small waterfall and wanted to fresh up a bit before hiking back to the Mirador and home to Boquete. With the 3 hour hike they had coming, they would arrive @ Il Pianista again just before dark. They took off their bras which they put in the backpack and enjoyed the cold water coming from the mountain. Kris took the water bottle she had from their backpack and told Lisanne she went for a short private pitstop in the woods before hiking back again to Boquete. This happened more or less at 15:30.
Lisanne stayed behind with the backpack, in which she had the two phones of the girls, the camera and the just taken off bras. Also Lisannes passport and Kris’s insurance card were in the backpack. Lisanne had her own 0.5 l plastic bottle of water.
Lisanne was enjoying the nice area, the swim in the ice cold water which cooled her off pretty quickly. Refreshing. After 15 minutes she still did not see Kris coming back from her pit stop and began to wonder where she’d be, so she shouted to her friend
Kris went a bit into the woods and chose a place to do what she had to do. Here she was completely surprised by some fauna which scared her and she started to run. Because of the direction she could not run back towards her friend, but she ran in the opposite direction away from her. The tapir/swarm of bees/other animal or group of animals formed a barrier to get back to Lisanne and she ran farther away.
In the meantime Lisanne was getting scared something awful had happened and started to look for her friend shouting her name. But Kris, scared as hell, was already too far away in the dense Caribbean side forest that she could not hear her friend calling her. In complete panic, she could not find the way anymore, back to the quebrada. Lisanne in the meantime packed everything they had in their backpack and started to look for her friend. She kept looking in different places but no trace of her poor colleague of Kruispunt Amersfoort.
At about 16:30 Lisanne was in full distress and panic and she started to call 112, the Dutch emergency line and also 911 she tried. No call made it because there was no reception on that side of the Continental Divide.
Because of the sun setting in the West, behind the mountains, darkness fell much earlier than they had experienced the days before in Boquete.
Both girls were now separated from eachother.
In the next days they kept looking for each other and to paths to find their way back to civilization again. At one of these days Kris ended up on the banks of the Changuinola river, in an area where this river was called Culebra. She did not know this and also not that the name was given to the stream because of the abundance of poisonous snakes in the area. Kris waited here at the river bank for her friend to show up, as she expected Lisanne also reaching the river to come looking for her. She waited and waited and no sign of her friend. She started to become very thirsty and hungry and thought she’d needed to look for bananas, nuts, roots or anything edible to stay alive and keep her warm. But what if Lisanne would reach the river side just at that moment? She got an idea; I will leave my short jeans here as a sign, a sign for Lisanne that Kris had been there so if she’d see the jeans she would stay there and wait for her friend to come back with something to eat.
Lisanne on the other hand followed a different route to this river, took a different crossing and kept searching in despair for her lost buddy. While the days passed she kept calling 911 with her phone, also using it (as little as possible) as a light at night. After her own Samsung phone batteries died, she kept doing the same but using Kris’s iPhone to call for help. But nowhere she could get any signal.
The days passed and Kris collected some things to eat and tried to come back to the place she left her jeans. But… it wasn’t there anymore. The heavy rains caused the river to swell rapidly and she lost her only sign and piece of clothing she had. The river started to drop quickly again, the rains stopped and the sun came through. In the heat of the day both Kris and Lisanne suffered. Kris walked along the drying riverbed and at one moment got stuck with her boot in a hole. She tried to get her foot out, but weakened by hunger and thirst she was not able to do it. The only possibility would be to take off her shoe and get her foot out. When she unlaced her shoe, she suddenly saw why the river was called Culebra; it was swarming with snakes in the hole between the rocks and roots. She managed to pull her foot out but didn’t dare to get her shoe with her bare hands. On one sock and one shoe she looked for sticks and stones in the area to make it happen, but unfortunately she did not manage to do it.
In the meantime, still in complete stress and hunger, her friend was looking for Kris wherever she could. She looked along the river but couldn’t find her.
Lisanne used both cellphones to have light and called various times to the emergency line but still no reception in the deserted Nance de Risco area.
The night of the 7th of April to the morning of the 8th Lisanne, weakened by the lack of food, sleep and dehydrated, still in complete distress about her situation, she wanted to keep the little battery she had on her phone and walked along a rocky cliff along the river. She took photos with her camera and tried to get light with it to find her way through the area she was. Curious night eyes came up to the poor girl and she tried to scare away the animals with her photo camera. Some branches, pollen and the vague red rocky surface appeared in 3 out of the 90 pictures she was able to take before the camera batteries died all the way. Soon after this she fell asleep. Next morning she was very ill and could not walk far anymore. She reached more or less the place where the backpack would be found 65 days afterwards. Here she finally deceased by a combination of dehydration, pain and suffering and lack of food and sleep, bites from bugs and snakes.
It is at this place poor Kris would find her friend just 3 days later, on April 11th. The exhausted girl, still without jeans and with one shoe, found the backpack intact and she tried to look for her phone. There was just 1% of battery left which she used to hysterically call 911. In that she failed and in exhaustion she was not able anymore to leave a farewell message for her parents. The camera battery did not survive the lighting-photo taking session Lisanne did 3 days before. She was not able anymore to build a grave for her friend and soon afterwards she died too.
After the death of both young women, the river started to swell again and washed ashore some remains of the girls. Some kilometers upstream the missing shoe of Kris was washed ashore too. In the tropical humid climate of Bocas del Toro province, the bodies quickly disintegrated and washed partly into the river again leaving behind Kris pelvic bone and Lisannes boot and foot close to each other.
The guide that walked the complete trail for days starting April 3rd could not locate the poor girls who were already weakened and searching for food and water. Sinaproc did not go into Bocas del Toro and the parents of the missing girls who arrived April 8th in the morning in Boquete, Panama were unaware of the girls still alive on a mere 17 km from where they were.
In the coming months the climate, bacteria and river swelling and sinking distributed the final remains over a large area.
Wanneer komt je verzamelbundel korte en spannende verhalen uit?quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 06:54 schreef El_Matador het volgende:
Goed, mijn scenario. Commentaar is meer, meer dan gewenst.
[knip]
Er zitten onderdelen in je verhaal die zeker waar kunnen zijn echter, naar mijn mening, te veel in detail beschreven wat niet nodig was geweest om je hypothese duidelijk te maken.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 06:54 schreef El_Matador het volgende:
Goed, mijn scenario. Commentaar is meer, meer dan gewenst.
====================
Ok guys and gals, after 4 months of research into this case, and after today’s EenVandaag show I formulated a scenario which I consider at this moment the most logical and possible to cover the known facts and especially answering some questions to the “illogical” things we now know about.
..........
Lisanne was enjoying the nice area, the swim in the ice cold water which cooled her off pretty quickly. Refreshing. After 15 minutes she still did not see Kris coming back from her pit stop and began to wonder where she’d be, so she shouted to her friend
........
At about 16:30 Lisanne was in full distress and panic and she started to call 112, the Dutch emergency line and also 911 she tried. No call made it because there was no reception on that side of the Continental Divide.
........
Vorige week met die hevige regenval, werd op lokale radio opgeroepen om niet meer naar 112 te bellen als je kelder/huis onder water liep, maar alleen bij noodgevallen 112 te bellen.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 02:27 schreef El_Matador het volgende:
911 bellen als je verdwaald bent lijkt me ook iets te gortig.
Ik denk wel dat als je verdwaald bent je niet 112 gaat bellen direct. Je belt eerst die taalschool of de gids waar je de volgende dag mee zou gaan lopen.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 11:40 schreef NedKelly het volgende:
[..]
Vorige week met die hevige regenval, werd op lokale radio opgeroepen om niet meer naar 112 te bellen als je kelder/huis onder water liep, maar alleen bij noodgevallen 112 te bellen.
Hoewel ik niet begrijp dat mensen in zo'n geval 112 bellen, vind ik het niet gek om noodnummer te bellen in een vreemd land als je verdwaald zou zijn. Zij kunnen wat regelen of je in verbinding stellen met lokale mensen (als je bereik hebt dan).
De registratie bij WS is nogal verwarrend. In hun eerste mailtje geven ze je de indruk dat het al voor elkaar is, maar je kunt dan toch niet posten, zodat je denkt dat het misgegaan is (dat was tenminste mijn ervaring). Later komt er als het goed is een tweede bevestiging, en dan kun je er posten / foto's bekijken.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 03:06 schreef jackie12 het volgende:
heb me aangemeld bij websleuths maar kom geen 1 forum op ?!?
Blijf ik toch lekker hier fokken!
Moet je dat nummer wel in je telefoon hebben staan (of bij je hebben).quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 11:42 schreef SuperFokker het volgende:
[..]
Ik denk wel dat als je verdwaald bent je niet 112 gaat bellen direct. Je belt eerst die taalschool of de gids waar je de volgende dag mee zou gaan lopen.
Er moet iets zijn gebeurd waardoor direct hulp nodig was.
Dat is natuurlijk meteen weer een vraag.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 11:45 schreef NedKelly het volgende:
[..]
Moet je dat nummer wel in je telefoon hebben staan (of bij je hebben).
Die opvatting dat zou best weleens kunnen. Als ik kijk op diverse FB pagina's zijn het idd altijd leuke en mooie dingen die men deelt en waar men dus foto's van maakt. Maar een enkeling zet ook minder leuke dingen met foto op social media.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 01:16 schreef Stupidisco het volgende:
Met de opvatting van foto's maak je voornamelijk op de leuke momenten;
- tot 14:00 uur toeristische foto's gemaakt (alles is goed en ze zijn vrolijk)
- ergens daarna (tussen 14:00 uur en 16:30) slaat dit om en is er duidelijk iets gebeurd
- vanaf dit moment is de vrolijke stemming weg en is foto's maken totaal niet belangrijk (en dat blijft zo)
- camera is daarna enkel nog gebruikt om te dienen als lichtbron
Volgens mij is dat ook de reden dat de vader van Kris vasthoudt aan een misdrijf.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 12:02 schreef StaceySinger het volgende:
“Het is hier niet de Amazone, als ze goed gestructureerd te werk waren gegaan, hadden ze Lisanne en Kris binnen die week moeten kunnen vinden.”
dan krijg je geen donkere foto's -want die zijn onderbelichtquote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 12:08 schreef KnutdeIJsbeer het volgende:
Misschien hebben ze die flits wel gebruikt om wilde dieren op afstand te houden.
Is 'oud' nieuws toch?quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 12:09 schreef StaceySinger het volgende:
Met de telefoons van #LisanneKris zijn meerdere malen noodnummers 112 en 911 gebeld, melden ouders Kris op persco in #Panama
In Caribisch Nederland wordt niet 112, maar 911 gebruikt als alarmnummer. Iemand die 112 belt wordt echter wel doorgeschakeld naar 911.quote:
Ze kunnen natuurlijk ook best een stukje teruggelopen hebben.quote:Op dinsdag 5 augustus 2014 12:13 schreef VaLkyRie het volgende:
Zijn die watervallen nou echt een trekpleister?
Wat ik raar vind is dat ze om 14:00 (edit: waarschijnlijk iets eerder bedenk ik me nu)bij de eerste waterval, besluiten om nog een stuk door te lopen naar een tweede, nagenoeg identieke waterval. Dat heeft totaal geen meerwaarde en tegen die tijd waren ze al bijna 3 a 4 uur onderweg. Het lijkt een heel natuurlijk punt om te zeggen, ,,okee, we zijn al verder doorgelopen dan gepland, we zijn al uren verder. We hebben een stuk jungle gezien en deze waterval. We gaan nu terug. Dan zijn we tegen etenstijd weer waar we begonnen.''
De keuze om daar maar weer door te lopen lijkt raar. Misschien dat ze daar al fout zijn gelopen? T zou verklaren waarom ze bij de tweede waterval geen foto's meer nemen, want toen was er al iets van paniek/ongerustheid ingetreden.
Wat ook raar is, is om verder te lopen aan de verkeerde kant van de berg. Al ben je verdwaald, dan weet je toch dat je aan de andere kant van die berg moet zijn? Dus weer de heuvel op, want daar kom je vandaan. Nu loop je alleen maar verder een onherbergzame jungle in. Lijkt ook een heel tegennatuurlijke keuze.
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