Bewijs dat Armeense "genocide" leugens vernietigt

quote:

Op vrijdag 9 april 2010 10:41 schreef annoh het volgende:
En wat ik me echt afvraag: waarom is het zo belangrijk voor je? Dat vraag ik niet zozeer omdat het zo lang geleden is gebeurd, maar meer omdat ik het met niet zo goed voor kan stellen. Hoewel ik me waarschijnlijk meer dan de gemiddelde Nederlander interesseer voor de Nederlandse oorlogsgeschiedenis, kan ik me niet indenken dat ik me zo emotioneel betrokken voel met iets wat het Nederlandse leger wordt beschuldigd (Bv. Nederlands-Indië idd). Is het niet zo dat besturen en legers fouten kunnen maken, en vreselijke dingen kunnen doen? Als je kijkt naar de geschiedenis zijn er zoveel staten die de meest vreselijke dingen hebben uitgespookt. Hoe komt het dan toch dat een beleid van 100 jaar geleden zo verbonden is aan de identiteit van een Turk die in Nederland woont, en zo belangrijk voor hem is dat hij op een Nederlands forum mensen wil overtuigen?

quote:

Op vrijdag 9 april 2010 11:30 schreef Gimmick het volgende:
Polderturk doet niet alsof het de discussie is dat het westen gelooft dat Turkijke 'zomaar' de Armeniers afslachtte. Dat gelooft volgens mij niemand. De meeste zullen erkennen dat er oorlog was en dat ook van de kant van Armeniers misdaden zijn gepleegd. Ons met oude krantenknipsels daarvan overtuigen heeft dan ook geen zin. Overigens zijn de artikelen ook selectief geselecteerd. Een aantal komen uit 1899. Vijf jaar daarvoor heeft Abdül-Hamid II nog 200 000 Armeniers over de kling gejaagd. Het zou zomaar kunnen dat dat wat onvrede heeft veroorzaakt bij de Armeniers. Wat overigens geen rechtvaardiging is voor moordpartijen 5 jaar later - net zo min de misdaden uit 1899 rechtvaardiging zijn voor de genocide 16 jaar later.

Bij de meeste genocide's is de 'groep slachtoffers' niet 100% onschuldig (individuele slachtoffers zijn natuurlijk vaak wel onschuldig - dat is wat genocide zo onmenselijk maakt voor iedereen die niet in collectieve schuld gelooft). Nazi-Duitsland en Cambodja waren volgens mij de enige recente genocides waarbij de groepen slachtoffers volkomen onschuldig waren.

Ook de Tutsi's in Rwanda hebben misdaden tegen de Hutsi's begaan. Ook de moslims in Bosnië hebben zich misdragen. Ook koerden in Irak hebben zich (vanuit het oogpunt van Irak) schuldig gemaakt aan terrorisme. Dat moet allemaal niet vergeten worden en maakt het vraagstuk complex maar is geen rechtvaardiging voor het gedrag van de dader.

quote:

Op vrijdag 9 april 2010 11:30 schreef Gimmick het volgende:
Polderturk doet niet alsof het de discussie is dat het westen gelooft dat Turkijke 'zomaar' de Armeniers afslachtte. ... maar is geen rechtvaardiging voor het gedrag van de dader.

quote:

When the town crier announced about the Armenians' deportation, the Turk gendarmes began to order: "Men - on one side, women - on the other side." They sent the vigorous men to fight at the Russian-Turkish front.

They drove us like sheep; they expelled us from our houses and our orchards. They drove us to the desert. We were walking in the open air for one hundred and ten days almost without rest. And we slept in the open air. The old and the sick people couldn't walk, they remained on the road or the gendarmes killed them. They were driving us forward hungry; they didn't even allow us to drink water. The Kurds and the Chechens attacked us, plundered and kidnapped the girls and young women. Many women and girls threw themselves into the water. The Tigris and Euphrates rivers were filled with corpses. I remember, my step-mother was pregnant, they killed her, they thrust the sword into her belly, took out the baby, they began to laugh that it was a boy and then threw him on the ground. I can never forget that scene. We lost each other. I remained alone.

quote:

One day they came and chose the Armenian males and took them to built mosques. Then they came and took our mothers and sisters to the village of Zarayi Ghavakhlou. The gendarmes drove them with whips as if they were animals. The old people, who weren't able to walk, they put their head between their feet, tied them and rolled them down into the Zaray valley... They killed my father with an axe. From there they took us to Kayabash, an open plain beside a big rock...

There was a Turk gendarme, Hussein by name, and some others with him; they began to plunder what we had; they raped the girls before our eyes, they tore open the pregnant women's bellies, took out the unborn children and threw them to each other. One of them took away a girl, another took away a boy; they took away what they could.

The Turk, who took me, made me sleep in his shop. I asked: "Where are my mother and father?"

He showed me his throat - meaning, that they had been slaughtered.

quote:

The next day, after loading the most necessary things on the horse, we set off. Besides those 24 families, they exiled other families, too, in parts. Grandma, who was seventy years old, threw herself into the river; the gendarme fired at her and killed her. After two days when we were in a flat country surrounded with hills, the Turks, armed with axes and daggers, attacked us and began to slaughter, plunder and kidnap. Half of the people were killed there. The gendarmes, accompanying us, disappeared at that time. After 4-5 hours they began to kidnap the girls and young women. They took away my sister. My brother wanted to defend her, they struck him on the head and killed him. I remained with my mother, my other sister, elder brother and my uncle's wife. They had already taken away our horse and cart. Nothing was left to us. We were left naked and bare-footed. Thus we walked from Baybourd to Yerznka, hungry, thirsty, wounded and bleeding. Near Yerznka, as we came down a hill, we saw thousands of corpses, naked and deformed, which were scattered before us. We were all exhausted to death. Two brothers, 17-18 years old who were not able to walk with the group anymore, asked the gendarme to kill them. Without even thinking, the gendarme made them stand back to back and shot them with one bullet; he was glad that he had saved a bullet.

quote:

Then they gathered the men, filled them in the church and at night they killed them all. Father had been able to escape away from there and reach my aunt's house. A kind Turk woman, who had seen my father, had later said to my aunt: "Your handsome brother-in-law came by night, went round your house and then entered the forest."

Father had encountered there a group of Turks and an Armenian traitor, who had killed father. In the morning when we heard that all the men had been killed, everybody was filled with despair.

quote:

The Turks came and told my uncle: "Order has been received; you must migrate." My uncle came out of the house with his family; they went to the grave-yard. He said to his wife: "Wrap a cigarette for me," he got a heart attack and died on the spot. The Turks kidnapped his eight-year-old daughter Arousyak and took her to a Turkish orphanage. My mother managed to free Arousyak from the orphanage, but the Turks took away her young son to become a shepherd for the bey's sheep.

I remember that the Turks killed the people with axes and threw them into the water. Many women, as the wife of my mother's brother, threw herself into the river together with her child.

quote:

After coming out of the village at a distance of 1 km, they had stopped our caravan, tied my father to a tree and killed him before the eyes of the people. Then they had ordered my mother: "Take your four children and go!" The three of them had gone on foot, I had been in my mother's arms, and we walked for three months and a half until we reached Bayazet, Igdir, Edjmiadsin and then to the yard of St. Sargis Church. The yard had been full of people then. Everywhere there were sick people and corpses. There was a special cart, which collected the corpses and took them away.

quote:

They had driven the Armenians out of their houses, had filled them into barns and churches and had set fire and burned them. They had slaughtered the ones who had remained alive. As they had burned all the houses, the Armenians had taken the road of exile, my mother and my three brothers among them. One of my brothers, Gaspar Ter-Meliksetian was in General Andranik's army. He has helped much the Armenians, who were deprived of their property and had become homeless.

On the way of exile many people died of exhaustion, hunger and thirst. The Mourad River was full of corpses. Mother and her three sisters had put on men's clothes and had helped the people to swim across the river. Mother told me how their relatives had been killed before their eyes. They had forced naked women to dance; they had raped them and had amused themselves.

quote:

When the exile began, we all lost our calculations, the more so, as the recruiting to the Turkish army approached. We tried to avoid it, and no one told his exact age, and thus, everything got mixed up. I knew that Sirakan was the eldest, then Victor and then me. Mother had told us that the difference in our ages was two years. Later, when we underwent medical commission examinations, I became the eldest and Victor - the youngest.

In 1914 the whole town got into a panic, because news came that the Turkish army was coming to slaughter the Armenians. We locked the doors of the house, kept the keys and fled to Igdir. Soon people calmed down; the first confusion subsided and in a few months we returned home. We had rented a house in Igdir and we lived there as in a summer resort. For the first time we didn't even suffer. We went back; everything was in its place. We took out the keys, opened the doors and began to live as before. Nothing was missing in the house. The neighbors received us well, but fear was in our hearts. I don't remember how much time had passed, when we fled to Igdir again, but this time it was for a shorter time. We stayed there almost for a month and then came back. For the third time we hesitated, we didn't want to leave, but the whole town was in a turmoil, and everybody was moving to the Russian border. It was in the autumn of 1916. When the town became half-empty, we understood that it was unavoidable, we had to go and we began packing our things. Little time was left. The neighboring Turkish women were already in our house and each one pointed out what she wanted. In our presence they divided our property among themselves. We were silent; we were very careful and spoke with each other in mimics. Our Turk baker woman knew the place of everything and she showed the others where they were. I couldn't stand any more; I didn't know what to do, I took the rifle and wanted to kill the woman. Father guessed my intention and held my hand: "Kamsar, don't shed blood in my house, let it remain clean." He knew what the consequence would be. If I killed the woman, they would slaughter us all in our house. All of us got out of the house in silence, with broken hearts. We had put a few rugs and clothes on the donkey; we didn't care about anything anymore. We had a few valuable mirrors; Sirakan put them on the clothes for safety. We hoped that we would come back. Mother embraced my swaddled new-born sister; I took up in my arms the children of my late uncle - the 6 year-old girl and the 5 year-old boy, and we came out. We locked the doors again and kept the keys in the same safe place as before. The town seemed empty. We were almost the last people to leave. When we were coming out of the town, I looked back, there were almost no people coming after us. We were running to catch up with the group of the refugees

quote:

Op zaterdag 10 april 2010 00:39 schreef Kees22 het volgende:
Ik snap nog steeds niet wat er nou met de TT bedoeld wordt.

quote:

Op zaterdag 10 april 2010 08:25 schreef Mwanatabu het volgende:

[..]

"Bewijs dat de Armeense genocideleugens vernietigt" oftewel "Bewijs dat de leugens over de genocide van de Armeniërs vernietigt".

Ik heb inmiddels goede hoop dat TS het boek van Taner Akçam -ook verkrijgbaar in het Turks- aan het lezen is en daarom niet meer reageert. En heel héél misschien pikt hij dan iets op van argumenteren, afhankelijk van hoe zwaar hij geïndoctrineerd is en zijn vermogen dingen op te pikken.

Het zou namelijk zo fijn zijn om een teken van leven te zijn van zijn eigen vrije geest in plaats van dat zijn antwoorden bestaan uit copypastes die anderen voor hem bedacht hebben. Hoe exemplarisch voor hoe de Turkse staat dit debat wil voeren: 70 miljoen Turkse mondjes die braaf herhalen op agressieve toon wat in de hoofdjes gestampt is. Kudos voor de oppositie daar die ertegenin durft te gaan, want ze bestaan, net als wetten die ze de mond kunnen snoeren.

Belediging van de Turkse staat mijn schele reet. De grootste belediging voor de Turkse staat is Atatürk en zijn vriendjes geweest met hun daden: een gemankeerd mens met een net zo vuile ideologie die helaas de tijdgeest meekreeg. En nu opnieuw: Bush wist niet hoe snel hij de genocide tot een "tragedie" moest vernoemen en het Congres on hold moest zetten omdat die vliegvelden naar Irak anders niet meer beschikbaar waren. Wat dat betreft is gebrek aan morele beschaving geen exclusief Turks gebrek als het op geschieds(her)schrijving aankomt. Dat is de politieke blinde vlek van zo ongeveer iedereen behalve Duitsland.

Verander voor Koos even die d in een t, dan. Hoewel je de titel dan nog steeds op twee manieren kunt lezen

quote:

Op zaterdag 10 april 2010 13:58 schreef SEMTEX het volgende:
Waarom laten de turken dan maar weinig journalisten e.d. toe toe het vernietigde deel van Armenië? Als de Armeniërs zulke schurken waren, hadden ze er juist belang bij om te laten zien dat ze zo onschuldig waren.

Armenian Genocide - The Syrian Desert

Armenian Genocide Survivor - Sam Kadorian

Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor --Alice Muggerditchian

Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor: Hagop Assadourian

Armenian Genocide Survivor Vartan Hartunian 1

Armenian Genocide Survivor - Joseph Kalajian

Turkish professor Taner Akcam - Armenian Genocide Part III

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 12:08 schreef polderturk het volgende:
Taner Akcam?

Laat me niet lachen. Die man is een linkse terrorist. Hij was lid van de terroristische organisatie Dev Sol. Hij was in Turkije veroordeeld tot een gevangenisstraf. Hij ontsnapte uit de gevangenis en vertrok naar het buitenland. Wat een objectieve bron zeg die Taner Akcam.

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 12:18 schreef polderturk het volgende:

[..]

Waarom hebben de pro-Armeense "deskundigen" het dan nooit over die Armeense opstand? Waarom wordt dat stelselmatig weggelaten? Sterker nog, waarom wordt er over gelogen? Dit is wat de Nederlandse genocide deskundige zei in de Volkskrant als een reactie op een stuk van professor Justin McCarthy:

"...was er destijds geen sprake van 'een verschrikkelijke oorlog tussen Turken en Armeniërs', noch van een 'grote opstand' van de Armeniërs. "
Ton Zwaan, de Volkskrant, Forum, 14 juni 2005 (pagina 13)

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 12:18 schreef polderturk het volgende:

[..]

Waarom hebben de pro-Armeense "deskundigen" het dan nooit over die Armeense opstand?

quote:

Waarom wordt dat stelselmatig weggelaten? Sterker nog, waarom wordt er over gelogen? Dit is wat de Nederlandse genocide deskundige zei in de Volkskrant als een reactie op een stuk van professor Justin McCarthy:

"...was er destijds geen sprake van 'een verschrikkelijke oorlog tussen Turken en Armeniërs', noch van een 'grote opstand' van de Armeniërs. "
Ton Zwaan, de Volkskrant, Forum, 14 juni 2005 (pagina 13)

quote:

I remember the events of 1915, I see them as though they are before my eyes. A lot of Armenian youth had been taken to the Turkish army. News spread that they had been brought out of the army and were shot. The Armenians endured it. Then they attacked the people and began to plunder; rebellions occurred. The pasha called Aram Manoukian and said: "Send an efficient person to calm them."

Arshak Vramian, who was a Parliament member in Constantinople, elected by the Armenians, went to Manoukian and said: "I'm going, but you shouldn't come. My heart is predicting something bad."

The boatmen hung heavy iron loads on Vramian's neck and threw him into the sea. After Vramian's murder we felt that it was deceit and very soon it would burst out, so we began to arm ourselves. In Kaghakamedj two hundred people had guns. We fought for 25-30 days; it was a fighting of 'life or death.' The inhabitants of Van fought against the regular Turkish army, which had 15 thousand soldiers and Kurd rabble, but they resisted. The teenagers fired cannons; they used tinder to fire them. Each contained ten kilograms of gunpowder. They removed the tinder, took it away and filled it again. There was a Frenchman, 'Mon Cher' by name; he was a chemist. He said: "I'll make gun-powder. Tell only the Armenians. Let everyone collect urine in the house." And he prepared gun-powder. Then he was killed.

About 200 people were under arms, 400 people prepared the trenches by night. Whoever had food supplies, brought them to the Primacy. Every person had a function. They had sent a mad girl from Aygestan to collect news from the Armenians, but she was killed on her way back. They bribed a Turk to take a note to Kaghakamedj informing the Armenians to resist for a week since the Russian army was coming. The Turks, hearing the news, left gradually. We were children, but we were not afraid; we collected cartridges. My father was an architect; he surveyed the construction of the positions. The priests and the vardapets were also fighting. The Turks drove the Kurds on us. I remember, when the fighting was over a Turk came and said: "Everywhere are slaughtered corpses. The priest is beheaded on the Church threshold and his head is put before the Holy Virgin's portrait." After the Turkish army left all the villages we entered were full of corpses, and furious dogs, cats and vultures were devouring the corpses, which the Turks had slaughtered and filled in pits. They were committed to the earth without prayers. The Vaspourakanis gave 30-40 victims, but thousands were killed among the defenseless people. Whatever I'm telling you are my memoirs as an eye-witness. The Russian army approached. The volunteer army entered first, and we were saved. If they hadn't come, we would also be annihilated like the people in Urfa, Shapin-Garahissar.

quote:

Uncle Vardan reached with great difficulties Ardahan, where the Russian army had settled. He crossed his face, spoke in Russian and told the Russians that he was not a Turkish woman; he wore women's clothes in order to be able to come and tell them that the Turks intended to slaughter the Armenians and it was necessary to reach Tandzot without delay to help them. The Russians listened to him and agreed to go and help the people. Vardan knew the road: he walked by night, and the Russian soldiers followed him. The Russian soldiers reached Tandzot before the Turks could realize their hellish plan.

quote:

Some time passed and they took our leaders, Vramian and others, killed them and drowned them in the lake. Then the Turks got ready to fight. First of all they closed the Armenian churches - St. Nshan, St. Paul-Peter, St. Vardan, St. Amenaprkich (Our Savior), which they burned and then the fighting began. They attacked the Armenians, but the Armenians resisted up to the end. The Turks sent people telling the Armenians to surrender, but the Armenians answered in the negative and that they would fight till the last drop of their blood. The fighting began. My father was Ramkavar (member of the Armenian Liberal Democratic Party). Mother prepared dinner, and I took it to my father in the trenches twice a day. The position was in a very dangerous place. Father wrote a note, gave it to me to take it to the Diocese. The note ran as follows: "This position is very dangerous, it's under the fortress." Really, to get there they used to put a ladder by the barn side and climbed to the roof. They got on the top of the roof; they dug there, closed the door of the yard and placed the people there. The Turks, who were looking through their field-glasses, thought that there was nobody on the positions and they attacked. We were ready. Whoever of the Turks tried to climb up, fell down and was killed. In this way the Armenians gained an advantage over the Turks.

quote:

In summer people gathered on the threshing-floor to thresh the wheat and they spoke about the possible massacres. In the village there were chieftains, who gathered and organized the people. Our peasants were armed; my father and brother had mausers. They didn't recruit from our village.

In 1915 the Turks began to attack. They entered the villages; they reached our village and went up to the mountain. Our men also went to the mountains, the women and the children remained in the village. We all went and entered the church. Everybody was crying and moaning. Then the Turkish soldiers came and surrounded the church. They came, knocked on the church gate and entered in. There was an order to kill even the suckling baby boys. My mother pierced my ears and hung ear-rings and dressed me like a girl. My two sisters had already died. It was my mother and our neighbor with her son standing side by side. They came, explained and they saw that the woman's baby was a boy; they cut his throat with a dagger and killed him. The woman fell on her child and began to wail; my mother also fell down and began to cry; I shrieked; they killed there 20-25 boys. They took me for a girl. They gathered the young girls and took them away. Mothers began to scream. The gate was left open. We saw: they filled twenty-thirty men into the monastery barn, poured kerosene on it and set fire. My mother's brother with his foot cut off was among the victims. My mother died of grief. We lost our dear mother. Suddenly news came that General Andranik was coming. Andranik came on his white horse and entered the churchyard. My grandfather made a present of 10 sheep and a cow to Andranik. During the deportation General Andranik's army came and we went to Russia. Our entire village and the surrounding villages were being deported. We came and reached the Berkri Bridge. The Russian Army stopped there.

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 13:25 schreef polderturk het volgende:

[..]

Het is ongelofelijk dat jij nog durft te beweren dat er geen grote Armeense opstand was na alles wat ik hier heb geplaatst. Werkelijk te belachelijk voor woorden.

quote:

Dus het aanvallen en uitroeien van Turkse en Koerdische dorpen is geen opstand? De dood van 523.000 Turken en Koerden als gevolg van Armeense moordpartijen is geen gevolg van een grote opstand?

quote:

A British colonel reported that the Armenians “massacred between 300,000 and 400,000 Kurdish Muslims in the Van and Bitlis districts.”

quote:

(British Colonel Wooley, U.S. Archives, 12.9.1919, 184.021/265; Samuel Weems' “Armenia — Secrets of a ‘Christian’ Terrorist State,” 2002 and McCarthy's "Death & Exile.")

"There are only 1500 Turks left in Van, the rest having been exterminated."

The Gotchnag, Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24th, 1915 issue; Cuinet figured 250 000 Moslems in Van in 1892.

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 13:27 schreef polderturk het volgende:
Kom niet meer met ooggetuige verslagen van Armeniers. Ze bewijzen niets. Ik kom met onafhankelijke bronnen terwijl jij met gekleurde oogetuigeverslagen van zielige Armeniers komt.

quote:

Out of convoys which, when they left their homes on the Armenian plateau, numbered from two to three thousand men) women and children, only two or three hundred survivors arrive here in the south. The men are slaughtered on the way: the women and girls, with the exception of the old, the ugly and those who are still children, have been abused by Turkish soldiers and officers and then carried away to Turkish and Kurdish villages, where they have to accept Islam. They try to destroy the remnant of the convoys by hunger and thirst. Even when they are fording rivers, they do not allow those dying of thirst to drink. All the nourishment they receive is a daily ration of a little meal sprinkled over their hands, which they lick off greedily, and its only effect is to protract their starvation

The object of the deportations is the extermination of the whole Armenian nation. This purpose is also proved by the tact that the Turkish Government declines all assistance from Missionaries, Sisters of Mercy and European residents in the country, and systematically tries to stop their work. A Swiss engineer was to have been brought before a court-martial because he had distributed bread in Anatolia to the starving Armenian women and children in a convoy of exiles. The Government has not hesitated even to deport Armenian pupils and teachers from the German schools at Adana and Aleppo, and Armenian children from the German orphanages, without regard to all the efforts of the Consuls and the heads of the institutions involved. The Government also rejected the American Government's offer to take the exiles to America on American ships and at America's expense.

And what becomes of these poor people who have been driven in thousands through Aleppo and the neighbourhood into the deserts, reduced almost entirely, by this time, to women and children? They are driven on and on from one place to another. The thousands shrink to hundreds and the hundreds to tiny remnants, and even these remnants are driven on till the last is dead. Then at last they have reached the goal of their wandering, the 'New Homes assigned to the Armenians,' as the newspapers phrase it

quote:

Consul Hoffmann wished to add some photographs which he had taken in the han himself. The photographs displayed piles of corpses, among which children still alive were crawling about.

In its revised form the report was signed by my colleague, Dr. Graeter (higher grade teacher), and by Frau Marie Spiecker, as well as by myself. The head of our institution, Director Huber, also placed his name to it and added a few words in the following sense: "My colleague Dr. Niepage's report is not at all exaggerated. For weeks we have been living here in an atmosphere poisoned with sickness and the stench of corpses. Only the hope of speedy relief makes it possible for us to carry on our work."

quote:

1919 - In the wake of the war nearly 400 CUP officials implicated in the genocide of the Armenians are arrested, although most avoid justice. Cemal, Enver and Talât are tried in absentia by a Turkish military tribunal, found guilty of war crimes and sentenced to death. The tribunal substantiates the key charge of premeditated mass murder organised by the Central Committee of the CUP and carried out by the 'Special Organisation'. A clandestine group is formed by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) to hunt down and assassinate the exiles.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pashas.htm

quote:

(1) On the evidence of the trial which has taken place before this Military Court, it is obvious that the massacres which took place in the Kaza of Boghazlayan (Ankara), the Sanjak of Yozgat, and the Vilayet of Trebizond, were organized and perpetrated by the leaders of the Ittihad and Terakki Party.
...
"(4) The world congress of the Ittihad and Terakki Party, having come to an understanding on the subject of the logistical support of the army, the Party's Istanbul headquarters handed over the direction of that task to its representative, Kemal Bey. First, they created a businessmen's body which took over the operations and rights of a number of firms and factions and seized private property. Public institutions were forced to transfer their assets to a limited number of individuals, including members of bodies mentioned above. As a result, countless numbers of Ottoman subjects have perished from lack of nourishment; many have suffered paralysis, and many have died...
...
There was even more to it. They created an even greater atmosphere of harassment of the non-Islamic elements of the land, the Armenians in particular, who had hoped, from our precious Constitution, for justice and peace. These people now understood that they had been victimised by hypocrisy, and they assumed the posture of awaiting that opportune moment when they would be able to realize their former national aspirations. And the cause of all this were the Ittihadists themselves. They even raised national and racial issues among the Moslems of the land, they promoted divisiveness and conflict and jeopardized Ottoman unity. All this has been established by the intensive studies and examinations done of the matter as they appear in the charge of the Attorney General

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 14:00 schreef polderturk het volgende:
Volgens Mwanatabu was er geen Armeense opstand. Laat ik eens doorgaan met het plaatsen van bewijzen:

150,000 Muslims massacred by Armenians was reported in the October 9, 1915 issue of Germania.

"They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their retreat..."
General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner, February 2, 1919, "Les Armees Francaises au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.


"...that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, November 12, 1928

quote:

".... verdronken, bevroren, verdorst, verhongerd, vervuild, door jakhalzen opgegeten. Kinderen huilden zich dood, mannen verbrijzelden zich op de rotsen, moeders wierpen hun kinderen in bronnen, zwangeren stortten zich zingend in de Eufraat. Alle doden van de wereld, alle doden van alle eeuwen stierven zij. Ik heb waanzinnigen gezien die hun eigen uitwerpselen aten, die het lichaam van hun pasgeborene kookten, meisjes die het nog warme lijk van hun moeders opensneden om uit angst voor de roofzuchtige gendarmes naar het in de darmen verstopte goud te zoeken. In vervallen karavaanserais lagen zij tussen de opgehoopte lijken...... Ambtenaren, officieren, soldaten, herders wedijverden in hun delirium van bloed, sleepten weesmeisjes uit scholen voor hun dierlijke genoegens, sloegen met knuppels op hoogzwangere vrouwen en stervenden in..."

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 14:05 schreef polderturk het volgende:
Lijst van alle Turken vermoord door Armeniers uit de Ottomaanse archieven.

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 14:14 schreef polderturk het volgende:

[..]

Uit de Turkse archieven blijkt dat er 972.000 Armeniers uit de archieven verdwenen zijn. Dit cijfer is echter goed te verklaren:
Volgens Bogos Noubar, de Armeense onderhandelaar bij Sevres, waren er 700.000 Armeniers het land uit gevlucht en waren er nog 300.000 Armeniers woonachtig in het Ottomaanse rijk. Volgens Turkse en buitenlandse archieven waren er voor de oorlog 1,3 miljoen Armeniers in het Ottomaanser rijk. Dit betekent dat maximaal 300.000 Armeniers overleden zijn.

quote:

Volgens de officiële tellingen van de Turkse staat zelf, woonden er dus bijna 1,3 miljoen Armeniërs in het Ottomaanse Rijk. Vreemd genoeg wordt dit aantal door internationale geschiedkundigen aangenomen als het aantal slachtoffers alleen al. Waarom worden de Ottomaanse tellingen niet als betrouwbaar gezien?
Er worden een aantal redenen aangevoerd waarom de Ottomaanse staat –die de aantallen inwoners zeer goed bijhield omwille van de belastingen- een lager aantal Armeniërs onder de staatsburgers wilde weergeven. Zo ontbreken er van de ene op de andere telling meer dan een miljoen Armeniërs. In 1844 en 1867 telden de Turken namelijk 2,4 miljoen Armeniërs.

In 1881/82 echter, telde het Ottomaanse Rijk er ineens 1,2 miljoen. Dit was "toevallig" net nadat het Armeense zelfbeschikkingsrecht ter tafel was gekomen. Het Ottomaanse Rijk had er voordeel bij om het aantal Armeniërs nu als minder op te geven, om het draagvlak van een Armeense staat te minimaliseren.
De schrijver Kadim Kadri zelf beschrijft hoe Sultan Abdulhamid beval de cijfers van de Armeniërs naar beneden bij te stellen. Verscheidene buitenlandse waarnemers (o.a. Lynch) zijn getuige van deze frauduleuze praktijken.

Een ander vreemd geval is dat de 100.000 tot 300.000 slachtoffers van de Hamidische Slachtingen (1894-1897) niet terug te vinden zijn in de tellingen, die een gestage constante groei van de Armeense bevolking laten zien tussen 1881-1914. Dit suggereert dat de aantallen vantevoren vastgesteld zijn vanuit een politiek oogmerk.

Ook ontdoken Armeniërs zelf de tellingen om zo belastingen te ontduiken.

Bij een groot aantal overlevenden is achteraf niet duidelijk of het Ottomaanse Armeniërs waren, of later aangekomen Kaukasische Armeniërs (die na het verdrag van Sèvres aangetrokken werden door de stichting van Cilicia). Alle overlevenden werden op een grote hoop gegooid zonder hun herkomst vast te stellen.

Armeense bronnen voeren daarom aan dat er waarschijnlijk 2 miljoen Armeniërs waren voor WOI en er 800.000 overlevenden waren.
Voor de oorlog probeerden de Armeniërs zelfs ooit een totaal aantal van 3 miljoen aan te voeren omwille van de eerder genoemde roep om hervormingen.

Wat ik aan probeer te geven, is dat beide "partijen" (dit zet ik expres tussen haakjes omdat er bij een genocide juist geen sprake is van een tweezijdige uitroeiingspolitiek) redenen hadden om de cijfers te manipuleren.
Wat dit betreft zullen we altijd langs elkaar heen blijven praten. In ieder geval kunnen we concluderen dat er tussen de 300.000 en 1,5 miljoen Armeniërs omgebracht zijn zuiver om hun etnische achtergrond.

Als we gaan kijken naar minder bevooroordeelde bronnen (dus niet-Turkse of Armeense bronnen), dan wordt er algemeen aangenomen het cijfer van 1,2 miljoen Armeense slachtoffers. Deze cijfers werden al geopperd in die periode zelf, dus niet pas later .

-In februari en mei 1916 rapporteerde de Duitse Inlichtingendienst en haar directeur Erzberger het cijfer van 1,5 miljoen
-In 1918 werd het aantal van 1,2 miljoen genoemd in het boek "Die Turkei" van Carl Franz Endres, een majoor die in het Turkse leger diende gedurende de oorlog.
-In het oorlogstribunaal (Yozgat) werd dit cijfer aangehouden
-in 1918 rapporteerde de consul van Oostenrijk-Hongarije 1 miljoen doden, zijn collega in Edirne 1,5 mln en de vice-marshall 1 mln.

Dit waren beide bondgenoten van Turkije.
Geallieerden rapporteerden:

-in 1916 was er een erg gefundeerde schatting van 600.000 slachtoffers voor 1915 alleen (dus de jaren 16-23 nog buiten beschouwing gelaten) van Toynbee.
-de Volkerenbond gaat vlak na WOI uit van 1 tot 1,5 miljoen slachtoffers

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 14:31 schreef polderturk het volgende:
Nogmaals voor degenen die het niet willen snappen:

Armeense versie:
Er was geen Armeense opstand
1,5 miljoen onschuldige Armeniers afgeslacht

Turkse versie:
Er was een grote Armeense opstand
Armeniers werden bewapend door Rusland en door westerlingen
Armeense soldaten deserteerden uit het Ottomaanse leger
Er was een grote burgeroolog uitgebroken tussen Turken en Armeniers in het oosten van Turkije
Er zijn veel Armeniers afgeslacht door Turken en er zijn veel Turken afgeslacht door Armeniers

Welke versie klinkt geloofwaardiger?

quote:

Op zondag 11 april 2010 15:48 schreef Gimmick het volgende:
Samenvattend zijn er twee soorten bronnen. Bronnen die aangeven dat er daadwerkelijk sprake was van genocide. Deze bronnen zijn gebaseerd op leugens en propaganda. Daarnaast heb je bronnen waar niet wordt aangetoond dat er sprake is van genocide. Deze bronnen zijn juist en objectief.