Natalee Holloway (in the rebound) #8

maar joran kon niet goed pokeren, nooit winnaar geweest

ja iemand moet de ondergedrukte zijn he in de familie , joran vroeg ook nooit wat aan vaders , moeders besliste

joran voor PRESIDENT zeker : I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMEN , de americanen vinden een blow-job toch geen sex en ook een sigaar of vinger tellen ze niet mee

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Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 10:16 schreef johan555 het volgende:
Ik heb zo ie zo bewondering voor iedereen die zich intensief met deze zaak bezig houdt .

Waar komt die bewondering vandaan? Wat levert het jou op? Als je over 10 jaar nog niet voldoende bewijs hebt, blijf je dan zoeken? Ben je bereid om zo'n groot deel van je leven op te offeren voor een familie die je helemaal niet kent, voor de Amerikaans/Nederlands/Arubaanse bevolking die dit al weer bijna vergeten is?

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Ik ben er van overtuigd dat de oplossing vaak een hele kleine aanwijzing kan zijn of een suggestie, lees alle boeken maar eens van A. Christie

Ik vraag me af welke scenario's je allemaal actief onderzoekt? Hou je een website bij met mogelijk scenario's en alle bewijzen die deze scenario's ondersteunen en wat er nog ontbreekt?

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ik heb gevraagd voor de tekeingen van het riolerings stelsel en saptictanks ,beerputten etc
en die waren eerst digitaal en dus op te sturen maar ineens na 3 dagen wachten niet meer .
dat vind ik wel erg verdacht

Doe je nog iets met die verdenking? Ik kan ook zeggen dat jij verdacht bent, omdat je niet lijkt te zoeken naar de waarheid, maar naar een manier om aandacht te krijgen.

_{En nee, je hoeft die verdenking niet te ontkrachten, ik laat je gewoon in je waarde. Net als de Arubaanse overheid die jouw verdenking niet hoeft te ontkrachten}

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Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 16:25 schreef johan555 het volgende:
ik krijg al aandacht genoeg hoor en begin jij eerst hier Natalee Holloway (in the rebound) maar eens te lezen voordat je commentaar geeft

Ah, die openings-post bevestigt een deel van mijn vermoeden. Je bent van mening dat Joran van der Sloot haar heeft verkracht en vermoord. En je bent op zoek naar alles dat deze stelling ondersteunt. Dat noem ik geen zoektocht naar de waarheid, maar een heksenjacht.

Het is jammer dat ik zo weinig over heb voor mijn mede-mens om de tijd en energie te steken in een thread om bewijs te zoeken voor het tegendeel. Want dat verdient elk mens net zo goed. Het beste dat ik kan doen, is kritiek leveren op jouw manier van werken, in de hoop dat je je niet laat verblinden door indirect 'bewijs'.

Je hebt gelijk dat ik niet al je posts heb gelezen, dus baseer ik het alleen op die ene waar ik initieel op reageerde. Als je dat niet kunt waarderen hoef je verder niet te reageren en houdt hier de discussie op.

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Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 14:54 schreef johan555 het volgende:

Verslaafde Joran verliezend pokeraar
WOW, hij speelde wel 238 toernooien! duidelijk verslaafd!

Conclusie

Uit het bovenstaande kunnen we concluderen dat Joran van der Sloot een groot liefhebber is van het pokerspel. Hij lijkt verslaafd aan het kaartspel. Pokeren op internet kost hem veel geld. Zijn resultaten zijn slecht. Joran van der Sloot weet waarschijnlijk wel iets van pokerstrategie af – hij eindigde immers bij een aantal toernooien hoog – maar echt goed heeft hij zich nooit in de theorie van het pokeren verdiept. Het is een verliezende speler.

Conclusie, hij verliest in een aantal jaar een paar honderd euro per jaar dus hij is een moordenaar.
Kom op zeg, pokeren is op weg om vrijetijdsbesteding #1 te worden onder de jeugd.

kijk hier maar eens bv: Het Grote Pokertopic #293: met Nederlandse Sunday Million

Op fok zijn ze al bij topic 293.

[quote]Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 04:50 schreef observer777 het volgende:

[..]
Not sure what you uncovered as we saw very little of that undercover tape. I have had to rely on this forum and others for more info. She said as in Natalee that she said Yes thats true that you need to inform Jk2? ? It's interesting but he already thought Natalee was dead correct?
[/quote

I think among all translations, it's very difficult for non native dutch listeners to make a real good judgement of Joran and what he's really saying.
Joran quoted from the tape, supposedly speaking to the man with the boat:
<Quote> Satish and Deepak have dropped me off there by the beach, so I also need to talk to them..
Then SHE said: Yes, that's true.
<EndQuote>
I think that was a Freudian slip of the tong, as it looks like he's quoting from a discussion with a WOMAN. And if not so, how did he (man with boat) know that was true? He just arrived.... She (Natalee) on the other hand could have said so, because she had been with the three guys that night.
Personally I don't think she was dead then, Joran made that all up, bragging to a pretended criminal. I think that Joran helped Natalee to disappear and had no false intent. Not sure about Deepak. She afterwards came in hands of wrong people and died from an overdosis and for Joran the whole issue was out of his control when he heard she died. I don't think he knows what really happened to her.

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Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 04:50 schreef observer777 het volgende:

I don't think Natalee said much that night as everything points to her being unconscious almost immediately after getting in the car. If it was proven she made a phone call saying "I don't know these people" then that would be some very important info. The Family says she never made a call though.

That is not proven, she had been drinking, but according to her MB friends she did not look so drunk as was suggested by Joran and Deepak. I have always asked myself, why in the world would Joran tell so very graphically detailed, what he did with the girl, from the moment he talked to Bett Twitty? He must have done this on purpose, I think. Why? Maybe because Joran believed everything Natalee had told him about how her life really was and he hated Bett from the start. And why did he come up with this Hitler reference, there was really no need to offend someone, if he just killed her daughter? Was she really related to Hitler (visit to Austria?) or was she acting like a Hitler.

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Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 16:52 schreef johan555 het volgende:
als je mijn post op deze pagina gelezen hebt > circumstantial evidence
dan zie je ook dat ik geen heksenjacht begonnen ben ,er kunnen immers nog steeds zoveel mensen zijn die of betrokken zijn of (mede) dader

.... en het is nog steeds mogelijk dat Natalee haarzelf (per ongeluk / met opzet) iets heeft aangedaan.

Dat stuk over circumstantial evidence had ik niet gelezen, maar daaronder staat dat iemand anders het heeft geschreven. Ook zijn daarin een aantal uitspraken ondersteept, waarvan ik niet snap waarom je dat hebt gedaan.

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Paniek is een heel slechte raadgever, massahysterie echter even zo. Dat die jongen nog steeds niet de gehele waarheid verteld mag duidelijk zijn, je dumpt niet je sportschoenen in een riool als die geen bewijsmateriaal bevatten, al was het maar zand van het strand waar je denkt op gepakt te kunnen worden als de verdwijning aan het licht komt. Hij zegt dat ze elkaar slechts bevredigd hadden zonder gemeenschap te hebben gehad. De eerste opmerking sprak hij al tegen door later te zeggen “ik wilde haar vragen me te pijpen maar ze deed ineens niks meer” en de tweede opmerking spreekt hij tegen door later te zeggen “al zouden ze haar nu nog vinden met mijn sperma in haar dan hebben ze nog niets tegen me.”

Ten eerste is dit een zeer merkwaardige manier van schrijven, aangezien er wordt aangenomen dat hij liegt, maar niet over alles. Heel selectief en dat bedoel ik met de heksenjacht. Waarom wordt er alleen gekeken naar de manier waarop dit valt te interpreteren alsof hij schuldig is? Waarom niet ook de manier waarop dit past in het plaatje dat hij van zichzelf schetst?

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... wat ik wel vind is dat de waarheid boven tafel moet komen

Waarom is dat zo belangrijk voor je? Die vraag heb ik je gesteld....Wat levert het jou op? Als je over 10 jaar nog niet voldoende bewijs hebt, blijf je dan zoeken? Ben je bereid om zo'n groot deel van je leven op te offeren voor een familie die je helemaal niet kent, voor de Amerikaans/Nederlands/Arubaanse bevolking die dit al weer bijna vergeten is?

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.... en wat me opvalt dat als ik over rioleringen, beerputten en septictanks begin worden sommige mensen erg zenuwachtig

Dat heb je er niet bij gezegd. Je zei dat "personen" verschillende verhalen hadden over de riolering. Ik weet niet hoeveel ervaring je hebt met service-nummers, maar mensen bij zo'n service-nummer kunnen hele foute dingen zeggen. Zoals een belofte om geld terug te geven door 1ste persoon en vervolgens een intrekking van deze opmerking door een 2e persoon. Pas bij navraag per brief/e-mail kom je tot een officieel antwoord.

Waarom zouden mensen zenuwachtig worden over het verstrekken van zulke informatie? Ik zie er totaal reden voor.... ik blijf erbij dat je te veel en te snel mensen in het verdachten bankje plaatst. Als er onrecht is aangedaan, moet er een menselijk factor aan ten grondslag liggen. Zo praat mijn christelijke familie ook: "God is niet zo wreed, dus moet er opzet in het spel zijn geweest"

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Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 17:22 schreef nickhs het volgende:

[..]

That is not proven, she had been drinking, but according to her MB friends she did not look so drunk as was suggested by Joran and Deepak. I have always asked myself, why in the world would Joran tell so very graphically detailed, what he did with the girl, from the moment he talked to Bett Twitty? He must have done this on purpose, I think. Why? Maybe because Joran believed everything Natalee had told him about how her life really was and he hated Bett from the start. And why did he come up with this Hitler reference, there was really no need to offend someone, if he just killed her daughter? Was she really related to Hitler (visit to Austria?) or was she acting like a Hitler.

How about neither,just another attempt to slander the girl and her family. WHore,drug addict,runaway and related to hitler.. All lies! Out of all the things to talk about and you are talking about big time misinforamation. WHy would Karen Janssen write the Department of Justice and ask about there trip to Austria and her relation to hitler? What does that have to do with anything?

Joran changed from her being drunk because he realized that is a crime sexually assaulting someone who is unconscious or drunk. Why is right? Why did he and his Mother go into graphic detail about her being sexually assaulted? Why did a newspaper come out 5 days after she went missing to say all 3 had sex with her before dropping her off? Strange because she was never seen again after that. Did they realize that this may be acceptable in Aruba but ludicrous elsewhere in the world?

quote]Op maandag 4 februari 2008 00:35 schreef junkie19 het volgende:
http://www.dumpert.nl/med(...)t_volledig_leeg.html
[/quote]

@ Nickhs,

Ik heb het filmpje gevonden en gekopieerd. Misschien werkt deze.
Joran lijkt te zeggen zegt "en toen zei ze" of "en toen zeiden ze".

Weet alleen niet of je daar iets moet achterzoeken.

WHAT DOES FREDDIE KNOW?


Several references have been made by suspects in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway about the knowledge of another suspect - Freddie Alexander Arambatzis.

There have been references made regarding Freddie about Joran's shoes, Natalee remaining "passed out", a camera, and Freddie knowing "the truth".

Diario 12/6/2006
http://www.diario-aruba.com/2006/12/6/

...the fact that Joran had already on the 30th of May told Freddy the story about the Holliday Inn and that Joran told Freddy also that ?they? went into panic when Natalee remained ?passed out?!

Statement
Freddy Zedan
June 12th 2005

The girl had fallen several times on the way to the beach. Joran told me that at some point she "no longer came around/no longer regained consciousness" and that they had left her on the beach.
He also told me that he had left his gym/sporting shoes on the beach. After Joran had told me this, I asked him why he had left her there. He answered me that at that moment he had not known what to do.

Freddie was brought to the van der Sloot home after he spoke with Aruban authorities in the early days of this investigation. He was grilled by Joran's parents as to what he told police regarding their son, and Natalee Holloway.

Freddie states that Joran told him they had left Natalee at the beach, while at the same time Joran was still telling authorities he and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe had left Natalee at the Holiday Inn.

Paulus van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 18, 2005

?I believed the story that Joran, Deepak and Satish told, until Joran changed his statement. After that Freddy came to us and told us a different story. Joran had gone with the girl to the beach. (With Freddy is meant the witness Freddy ZEDAN; comment TROMP).

Freddy had told this story shortly after he was interviewed by the police. He had called my wife and had said that he found it important to tell the truth. After that he came over to us and he first talked to my wife. After that he came back one time and and he spoke with Joran's lawyer, his parents, me and my wife were also present. My wife and myself were very crushed/saddened/injured and angry at Joran for apparently not telling us the truth.
My wife and the lawyer then confronted Joran about this. According to my wife Joran reacted calmly and said that he had always told Freddy the truth.

Paulus van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 23, 2005

To your question whether Freddy ZEDAN came to our house out of his own accord or whether I had invited him, I can state the following. According to me Freddy phoned my wife after he had been questioned by the police. According to me he and his girlfriend came over to see my wife and he told what he had stated to the police. I was busy in the kitchen and did not hear everything Freddy was saying. Only at the end of the conversation I joined them. My wife and I were angry at Joran, because he did not tell the truth from the beginning. My wife planned to confront Joran with Freddy's statements. That night we were going to have a meeting with Mr. A. CARLO, this was a previously planned meeting. My wife called Freddy again and asked him if he could tell his story again to Joran's lawyer. At first he didn't want to come because he had an exam the very next day but in the end he and his parents came over. He then told the story he knew to Joran's lawyer.
I am convinced that Mr. CARLO did this with the best intentions possible.

JORAN'S BOOK
Page 154
Freddy after his June 12 statement:

(Joran) That night Freddy, per request of my mother, visited, to tell everything.

Freddy's parents are coming along, because they do not find it a good idea that Freddy goes alone. Besides my father Paul and my mother Anita. My lawyer Anthony Carlo is also present at our home per request of my mother. My mother asks Freddy to tell everything again.

Freddy: I could see on Anita's face that she did not know Joran had left the girl on the beach and that he has lost his shoes. I also told that Joran, Deepak, Satish and me had talked about it that I would buy new shoes for Joran. Anita could not believe everything I was telling. (as in amazed).
Carlo asks several times why Freddy thinks that Joran left his shoes behind.
Freddy answers: Joran did not want to walk with his shoes on the beach and probably left them behind because of that.
Freddy tells the beach story again that I would have told him on Monday May 30. Carlo in between asks questions all the time.
Freddy: I felt he asked me those things because he thought that me as a good friend of Joran could understand why he had done these things. I do not believe he asked those questions because he thought Joran would have told me, because he repeated every time: Why do you think that?
My father does not ask Freddy anything, but he does react on Freddy's answers to my mother. He says: why does Joran lie, and why did he not tell us that? My mother had promised the conversation would last 10 minutes max, but after half an hour Freddy's father gets up.
My parents did not agree with Joran's parents having invited me, Freddy says.
After Carlo had called the head officer for permission to visit me, he confronts me with what Freddy had said. I immediately admitted I had lied and that Freddy was telling the truth.

Deepak Kalpoe
Suspect Statement
June 11, 2005

I also have to tell you that Joran was wearing white sneakers/sport shoes that night. If you search/investigate his home then you will see that the shoes aren't there. He had told me that he had theft them on the beach. To your question whether I of if Joran told the story to someone else, than I can say the following. I know Joran told his story to his friend named Freddy ZEDAN. Freddy lives behind Joran. His mobile phone number is inside my mobile phone. To your question whether Joran told me what he had told Freddy, I can say the following. Joran told me that he had told Freddy the truth and the story that was made up. I know that he trusts Freddy more because they have known each other for a long time. If you go and talk to Freddy, he will tell you the made up story and maybe also the truth.

Satish Kalpoe
Suspect Statement
June 30, 2005

On your question who can tell the truth to you, with the exception of Joran, Deepak and I, I can tell you the following: Freddy is the person Joran confides in and he can tell you the truth.

Satish Kalpoe
Suspect Statement
June 24, 2005

On your question who Joran's best friend is: Freddy Zedan is Joran?s best friend. Freddy knew about the invented Holiday Inn and the tale which my brother and I and Joran told and that the missing girl was dropped off at the beach at the Marriott. My brother Deepak had told me that he and Joran invented the tale but to Freddy the beach tale was told. I thought that stunk, because I was not aware Freddy was told the beach tale. (note: tale does not necessarily mean lie, could mean story).

I have met Freddy two times after it was confessed that the girl became missing. ...the second time was when Joran, my brother and I took the camera to Freddy?s house.
We delivered the camera to Freddy, and afterwards all four of us ate Chinese in the area of Freddy?s house. Freddy also lives in Montanja. I do not remember his house number. We had bought food and we then we went to Joran?s apartment afterwards. According to me Freddy was informed then already about the missing girl. We may have spoken some about the missing girl, it is possible but I don?t remember. You ask me if I was scared when we were talking with Freddy about the missing girl. It is possible that I don?t remember. I say that we, Deepak and I, did not know that Freddy knew the real story. The real story, which was on the beach. It do not understand why Freddy was told that, according to me he knew both stories already.

Wednesday June 22, 2005
While being transferred from police station to KIA, Deepak and Satish are secretly recorded in a 40min conversation:

D: And I also trusted Freddy like a brother.
S: Yes.
D: But he also talked shit, that's why we've been arrested.
S: What did he say?
D: He keeps information behind. You know that Van der Sloot trusts Freddy with his life. Freddy knows what has happened. Freddy knows the truth.
S: I know he knows truth
D: Freddy knows, Freddy knows.
S: I've just said, Freddy also knows about the story of what happened, ask him.
D: Freddy knows

Deepak and Satish are being questioned in Orangestad at the same time and are transported back to KIA along with Joran in a minivan.
The following conversation is recorded:

Joran: You know no good that my father has nothing to do [with this}. I have read your statements, friend. You two are lying shit. (then very calmly) You know what happened with that girl. If you don't know it, then nothing happened. (then angrily) So, fuck you. What do you say, that Freddy has to be arrested?
Deepak: That Freddy has to tell the truth.
Joran: You know very well that Freddy has told the truth.
Satish: You will see, you will see.
Deepak: You could have prevented it from the beginning, this, of your father. You know it. That he wasn't arrested.

Freddie himself was detained by authorities in this case - and then subsequently released.

Diana Emerencia - Freddy's attorney
Decatur Daily News
August 31, 2005
http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050831/aruba.shtml

Freddy Alexander Zedan-Arambatzis, a friend of van der Sloot and the Kalpoes, was arrested on suspicion of having unspecified "physical contact" with a female minor, said his lawyer, Diana Emerencia. Suspicion of having sex with a unconscious person.
Zedan-Arambatzis, 21, is also suspected of photographing the girl in "tempting poses" and showing the images to other people, Emerencia said.

The Kalpoe brothers and van der Sloot are also suspected of involvement in the incidents, which allegedly occurred before Holloway disappeared, she said.

id Freddie have involvement in Natalee's disappearance?
* What "truth" does Freddie know that could shed light on the circumstances surrounding this tragic crime?
* Why did the Kalpoe brothers need to give a camera to Freddy?
* What sort of history regarding similar crimes do Freddie and Joran share?
* Why did Paulus and Anita need to find out what Freddy told police?
* Has Freddie told Aruban authorities all he knows about what happened to Natalee Holloway?

Natalee and her family deserve justice, and we will not let up until they have it!
Natalee's Freebirds
http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door observer777 op 26-02-2008 19:14:56 ]

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Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 18:49 schreef kinkajoe het volgende:
@ Nickhs,

Ik heb het filmpje gevonden en gekopieerd. Misschien werkt deze.
Joran lijkt te zeggen zegt "en toen zei ze" of "en toen zeiden ze".

Weet alleen niet of je daar iets moet achterzoeken.

Dat hangt er natuurlijk vanaf of hij er schuldiger door lijkt of niet.

Word @ Mahlah de objectiviteit is hier helaas nu ver te zoeken...Eerder was het hier behoorlijk objectief....

quote:

Op dinsdag 26 februari 2008 19:06 schreef Super_Girl het volgende:
Word @ Mahlah de objectiviteit is hier helaas nu ver te zoeken...Eerder was het hier behoorlijk objectief....

De uitzending van PRdV heeft een paar weken geleden dit hele geval weer in the picture gebracht, maar nu de storm weer is gaan liggen, gaat iedereen zijn/haar eigen visie en gedachten openbaren en wordt het moeras alleen nog maar meer ondoorzichtbaar...