Oorlog in Oekraďne #694 Koffiedik kijken

quote:

Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:51 schreef koos_vriendloos het volgende:
Veel geluid over een mogelijke interventie door oekraine in transnistrie vanacht op uitnodiging van moldova

quote:

Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:47 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:

[..]
Dit snap ik nooit van al die fsb moorden. Waarom hebben al die rijke stinkerds geen uitgebreid camerasysteem en een saferoom met wapens? Zodra je camera systeem beweging detecteert kijk je mee op je mobiel, je ziet wat verdachte figuren en je rent naar je saferoom.

Daar aangekomen kan je het qua voedsel weken/maandenlang uitzingen en uiteraard zit het vol met wapens om in het uiterste geval wat fsb-ers mee de dood in te sleuren. Ik dood maar jullie ook dood.

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:23 schreef michaelmoore het volgende:

[..]
https://news.yahoo.com/uk(...)epots-223000025.html
ach als de voorraden, munitiedepots en fuel maar vernietigd worden en de russen zijn bar geschrokken net als in de Krim

https://www.youtube.com/live/pct_GaSp4TQ?feature=share

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:23 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:
check die luchtverdediging die blind alle kanten op schiet
[ twitter ]

quote:

https://www.g4media.ro/2-(...)sotie-de-ce-bea.html
2,000 phone calls of Russian soldiers with families at home, intercepted / Mother, to Ivan: "Kill them all. You have my blessing" / Maxim, asked by his wife why he was drinking: "It's easier to shoot civilians"

The Associated Press news agency has obtained more than 2,000 intercepted phone calls from Russian soldiers in Ukraine that offer a new intimate view of Russian President Vladimir Putin's war, seen through the eyes of Russian soldiers.

The AP identified conversations conducted in March 2022 by soldiers from a military division that Ukrainian prosecutors say committed war crimes in Bucea, a city near Kiev that has become a symbol of Russian atrocities since the beginning of the war.

The discussions show how deeply unprepared the young soldiers – and their country – were for the coming war. Many of them enlisted in the army because they needed the money and were informed at the last minute about the deployment to the front. They were told that they would be greeted as heroes for liberating Ukraine from its Nazi oppressors and their Western supporters, and that Kiev would fall without bloodshed within a week.

Interceptions show that as the soldiers realized how much they had been misled, they were increasingly afraid. Violence that would once have been unthinkable has become normal. Looting and drinking provided moments of rare respite. Some said they followed orders to kill civilians or prisoners of war.

They tell their mothers what this war actually looks like: About the Ukrainian teenager whose ears were cut off. About how the scariest sound is not the whistle of a rocket passing by you, but the silence that means it comes directly towards you. How modern weapons can destroy the human body so that there is nothing left to bring home.

In these discussions, the soldiers' wives and fathers beg them not to drink too much and to call home.

These are the stories of three of these men – Ivan, Leonid and Maxim. The AP does not use their full names to protect their families in Russia. The AP determined that they were in the areas where the atrocities were committed, but has no evidence of their individual actions other than those they professed.

The AP spoke to Ivan and Leonid's mothers, but could not get in touch with Maxim or his family. The AP verified these calls with the help of the Dossier Center, a London-based investigative group funded by Russian dissident Mikhail Khodorkovsky.

LEONID

Leonid became a soldier because he needed the money. He was in debt and did not want to depend on his parents.

"I just wasn't emotionally ready for my child to go to war at the age of 19," her mother told the AP in January. "None of us have experienced such a thing, that your son will live in a time when he will have to go and fight." – Nelson Mandela

Leonid's mother declared that Russia must protect itself from its enemies. But like many others, she expected Russia to quickly conquer parts of eastern Ukraine. Instead, Leonid's unit was stuck near Bucea.

"No one thought it would be so terrible," his mother said. "My son said only one thing: 'My conscience is pure.' They first opened fire.' That's it."

In appeals, there is an obvious moral dissonance between how Leonid's mother raised him and what he sees and does in Ukraine. However, she defended her son, insisting that he had never even come into contact with civilians in Ukraine.

She said that everything was calm, civilized. The war did not change her son.

She refused to listen to the wiretaps: "It's absurd," she said. "Just don't try to make it look like my child killed innocent people."

___

ONE: Kill if you don't want to be killed

Leonid's entry into the war took place on February 24, when his unit crossed into Ukraine from Belarus and decimated a detachment of Ukrainians on the border. After his first struggle, Leonid seems to have compassion for the young Ukrainian soldiers they had just killed.

Mom: "When were you afraid?"

Leonid: "When our commander warned us that we were going to be shot, 100%. He warned us that even though we would be bombed and shot, our goal was to pass."

Mother: "Did they shoot at you?"

Leonid: "Of course it is. We defeated them."

Mother: "Mhm. Did you fire from your tanks?"

Leonid: "Yes, I shot. We fired from tanks, with machine guns and rifles. We had no losses. We destroyed their four tanks. There were corpses lying and burning. So, we won."

Mother: "Oh, what a nightmare! Lionka, you wanted to live in that moment, didn't you, honey?"

Leonid: "More than ever!"

Mom: "More than ever, isn't it, honey?"

Leonid: "Of course."

Mother: "It's totally horrible."

Leonid: "They were sitting there, they were only 18 or 19 years old. Am I different from them? No, they're not."

___

DOI: The rules of normal life no longer apply

Leonid tells his mother that their plan was to conquer Kiev in a week without firing a single bullet. Instead, his unit began firing near Chernobyl. They had no maps, and the Ukrainians had taken down all the road signs.

"It was so confusing," he says, "They were well prepared."

Not expecting a prolonged attack, the Russian soldiers were left without basic supplies. One way they could get what they needed—or they wanted—was to steal.

Many soldiers, including Leonid, talk about money with the cautious precision that comes from the fact that they do not have enough. Some receive orders from friends and family for shoes of certain sizes and parts for certain cars, proud to return home with something to give away.

When Leonid tells his mother about the robberies, at first he can't believe he's stealing. But it became something normal for him.

As he speaks, he watches a city burn on the horizon.

"What beauty," he says.

Leonid: "Look, mom, I'm looking at tons of houses – I don't know, dozens, hundreds – and they're all empty. Everyone ran away."

Mom: "So all the people left, right? You don't rob them, do you? Don't you go into other people's homes?"

Leonid: "Of course it is, Mom. Are you crazy?"

Mother: "Oh, you are. What do you take from them?"

Leonid: "We take food, bed linen, pillows. Blankets, forks, spoons, pans."

Mom: (laughing) "I think you're kidding."

Leonid: "Who doesn't have what – socks, clean underwear, T-shirts, sweaters."

___

THREE: The enemy is everyone

Leonid tells his mother about the terror of going on patrol and not knowing what or who she will meet. He describes the use of lethal force at the slightest provocation against almost anyone.

At first, she seems not to believe that Russian soldiers could kill civilians.

Leonid tells him that the civilians were told to flee or take shelter in the basements, so anyone outside is not really a civilian. The Russian soldiers had been told, by Putin and others, that they would be greeted as liberators and that anyone who resisted was a fascist, an insurgent – not a real civilian.

Mother: "Oh Lionka, you saw so many things there!"

Leonid: "Well... the civilians lie right on the street with their brains taken out."

Mother: "Oh my God, are you referring to the locals?"

Leonid: "Yes. Well, that's about it, yes."

Mother: "There are those whom you have shot or those who ... "

Leonid: "Those killed by our army."

Mom: "Lionia, they might just be peaceful people."

Leonid: "Mom, it was a battle. And a guy just appeared, you know? Maybe he was pulling out a grenade launcher... Or I had a case, a young man was turned off, they took his cell phone. He had all this information about us in the messages on Telegram – where to bomb, how many we were, how many tanks we had. And that's it."

Mom: "So they knew everything?"

Leonid: "He was shot right there, on the spot."

Mother: "Mhm."

Leonid: "He was 17 years old. And that was it, right there."

Mother: "Mhm."

Leonid: "He was a prisoner. He was an 18-year-old guy. First, he was shot in the leg. Then his ears were cut off. After that, he recognized everything and they killed him."

Mom: "Did she admit it?"

Leonid: "We don't imprison them. I mean, we're killing everybody."

Mother: "Mhm."

___

FOUR: What you need to do to get home in life

Leonid tells his mother that he was almost killed five times. Things are so disorganized, he says, that it's not uncommon for the Russians to fire on their own troops – it even happened to him. Some soldiers shoot themselves just to get sick leave, he says.

In another conversation, he tells his girlfriend that he is envious of his pals who were shot in the legs and were able to go home. "A bullet in the leg is like sitting at home for four months on crutches," he says. "It would be great."

Then he closed because of the approaching gunshots.

Mother: "Hi, Lioneshka."

Leonid: "I just wanted to call you again. I'm able to talk."

Mom: "Oh, that's good."

Leonid: "There are people here who are shooting themselves."

Mother: "Mhm."

Leonid: "They do it for insurance money. Do you know where they shoot?"

Mom: "That's silly, Lionia."

Leonid: "At the bottom of the left thigh."

Mom: "It's silly, Lionia. They're crazy, you know that, right?"

Leonid: "Some people are so scared that they're ready to hurt themselves just to leave."

Mother: "Yes, it's fear, what you can say here, it's the fear of man. Everyone wants to live. I'm not arguing about it, but please don't do that. We all pray for you. You should cross yourself whenever you have the opportunity, move away from everyone and do it. We all pray for you. We are all worried."

Leonid: "I'm sitting here and you know what the situation is? I'm now 30 feet from a huge cemetery." (laughs)

Mother: "Oh, it's horrible... let it be finished soon."

Leonid says he had to learn to empty his mind.

"Imagine, it's night. Stay in the dark and it's quiet outside. Alone with your thoughts. And day after day, you sit there alone with those thoughts," he tells his girlfriend. "I have already learned not to think about anything while sitting outside." – Nelson Mandela

He promises to bring home a collection of children's bullets. "Ukrainian Trophies," he calls them.

His mother says she's waiting for him.

"Of course I will come, why wouldn't I come?" says Leonid.

"Of course you will come," says his mother. "Without a doubt. You are my lover. Of course you will come. You are my happiness."

Leonid returned to Russia in May, seriously injured but alive. He told his mother that Russia would win this war.

___

IVAN

Ivan has dreamed of being a paratrooper ever since he was a child, growing up in a village on the outskirts of Siberia. He used to dress up in tracksuits and play paintball with friends in the woods. A photo shows him at the age of 12, smiling with a large Airsoft rifle and a viscous stain of green near his heart – a sign of certain death in paintball.

Ivan's dream came true. It entered an elite unit of Russian paratroopers, which crossed into Ukraine on the very first day of Putin's invasion on February 24, a year ago.

___

ONE: Ivan's Road to War

Ivan was in Belarus, at training, when they received a message on Telegram: "Tomorrow you go to Ukraine. A genocide of the Russian population is taking place. And we have to stop it."

When his mother found out that he was in Ukraine, he said that he stopped talking for several days and took sedatives. Her hair has grayed. However, she was proud of him.

Ivan arrived in Bucea.

Ivan: "Mom, hello."

Mother: "Hi, son! How..."

Ivan: "How are you?"

Mother: "Vania, I understand that he might listen to us, so I'm afraid that ..."

Ivan: "It doesn't matter."

Mom: "It doesn't matter: "... to ask you where you are, what's going on. Where are you?"

Ivan: "In Bucea."

Mother: "In Bucea?"

Ivan: "In Bucea."

Mom: "Son, be as careful as you can, okay? Don't throw yourself over there! Always keep your head cool."

Ivan: "Oh, come on, don't throw myself away."

Mother: "Yes, sure! And yesterday you told me you were going to kill everybody there." (laughs)

Ivan: "We're going to kill if we have to."

Mother: "Huh?"

Ivan: "If you have to... we're going to have to."

Mother: "I understand you. I'm so proud of you, my son! I don't even know how to express myself. I love you so much. And I bless you for everything, for everything! I wish you success in everything. And I will wait for you whatever it is."

___

DOI: Love and fear

Russian soldiers have been informed by Putin and others that they will be received by their brothers and sisters in Ukraine as liberators. Instead, Ivan notes that most Ukrainians want him dead or gone. His mood becomes bleak.

He calls his girlfriend, Olia, and tells her that he had a dream about her.

Ivan: "F..., you know, it gets me out of my mind here. It's just that... You were... I felt you, I touched you with my hand. I don't understand how it's possible, why, where... But I really felt you. I don't know, I felt something warm, something dear. It's as if something caught fire in my hands, so hot... And that's it. I don't know... I was sleeping and then I woke up with all these thoughts. War... You know, when you sleep – and then you're like... War... Where, where is it? It was dark in the house, so dark... And I went outside, walked down the streets and thought, damn, damn that. And that was it. I really want to come and see you."

Olia: "I'm waiting for you."

Ivan: "Are you waiting? WELL. And I wait. I'm waiting for the moment when I can come and see you... Let's make a deal. When we see each other, let's spend the whole day together. Let's lie down, let's sit together, let's eat, let's look at each other—just us, together."

Olia: (Laughs) "Agreed."

Ivan: "Together all the time. Hugs, hugs, hugs, kisses... Together all the time, without letting go of each other."

Olia: "Well, yes!"

Ivan: "You can go crazy here. It's so f- everything, what's going on. I really thought it would be easy here, to be honest. That it's going to be easy to talk, to think about it. But it turned out to be hard, you have to think with your head all the time. So that's it."

Ivan: "We're really on the front lines. As far away as possible. Kiev is 15 kilometers from us. It's scary, Olia. It's really scary."

Olia: "Hello?"

Ivan: "Can you hear me?"

The line breaks.

___

THREE: The End

As things get worse for Ivan in Ukraine, his mother's patriotism deepens and her anger grows. The family has relatives in Kiev, but seems to think that this is a fair war against Nazi oppression in Ukraine – and the dark hand of the United States that they see behind Kiev's tough resistance. She says she will go to Ukraine herself to fight.

Mom: "Do you have any predictions about the end...?"

Ivan: "We're here for now. We will probably stay until they clean up all of Ukraine. Maybe they'll get us out. Maybe not. We're going to Kiev."

Mom: "What are they going to do?"

Ivan: "We're not going anywhere until they clean up all these pests."

Mother: "Will those bastards be cleansed?"

Ivan: "Yes, that's right. But they waited for us and prepared, you know? They prepare properly. The wretched Americans helped them."

Mom: "F... f... f... Kill them all. You have my blessing."

Death came for Ivan a decade after that childhood paintball game.

În luna iulie, un ziar local a publicat un anunț privind înmormântarea sa, cu o fotografie cu el, din nou în uniformă, ținând în mână o pușcă mare. Ivan a murit în mod eroic în „operațiunea militară specială” a Rusiei, se spunea în anunț. „Nu te vom uita niciodată. Întreaga Rusie împărtășește această durere”.

Contactată de AP în ianuarie, mama lui Ivan a negat la început că ar fi vorbit vreodată cu fiul ei de pe front. Dar a fost de acord să asculte o parte din înregistrările audio interceptate și a confirmat că era ea cea care vorbea cu Ivan.

„Nu a fost implicat în crime, cu atât mai puțin în jafuri”, a declarat ea pentru AP înainte de a închide telefonul.

Ivan was her only son.
___

MAXIMUM

In some of the conversations, Maxim is drunk and mumbles words, because life on the front is more than he can bear when he is awake.

It is not clear which military unit Maxim is in, but he makes phone calls from the same phone as Ivan on the same days.

He says they are alone there and exposed.

His teeth hurt and his legs freeze. The hunt for locals – men, women and children – who could denounce the Ukrainian army is constant.

Maxim's mood oscillates between boredom and horror – not just for what he saw, but also for what he did.

___

ONE: Gold

The only reason Maxim manages to talk to his family left in Russia is the fact that he stole phone calls from locals. Even from children.

"We take everything from them," he explains to his wife. "Because they can also be foundries." – Socrates

Located just outside Kiev, bored and unsure of what they were in Ukraine, Maxim and another half a dozen individuals robbed a shopping center and left with all the gold they could carry.

At home, Maxim has problems with money, but here he has his hands full of treasures. He gladly calculates and recalculates how much his pile of gold might be worth. He says he offered a stack of money as much as his fist to Ukrainian women and children.

"I wanted to give it to normal families with children, but the people there were drunks," he tells his wife.

Eventually, he handed the money to a certain man, shaved, who seemed to him to look decent. "I said, 'Look here, take them, give it to families with children and get something for yourself.' You're going to do it yourself, it's going to be fair.'"

During the calls to the house, the sweet and subascious voice of Maxim's own toddler is heard in the background as he talks to his wife.

Maximum: "Do you know how much a gram of gold costs here?".

Wife: "No."

Maxim: "Approximately? About two or three thousand rubles, right?"

Wife: "Well, yes..."

Maxim: "Well, I have a kilo and a half. With labels even."

Wife: "Holy Sisoe, are we marauders?!".

Maxim: "With labels, yes. It's just that I f... this... I fired into this mall from a tank. Then I walked in and found a jewelry store. Everything was taken away. But there was a safe there. I broke it, and inside... So we loaded all seven of them."

Wife: "I understand."

Maxim: "They had some necklaces, you know... In our money, it's about 30-40,000 apiece, 60,000 apiece."

Wife: "Holy Sisoe."

Maxim: "I took about a kilo and a half of necklaces, keychains, bracelets... This... Earrings... earrings with rings..."

Wife: "Enough arrives, don't tell me anymore."

Maximum: "Anyway, I counted and if it's 3,000 rubles per gram, then I have about 3.5 million"

Wife: "I understand. What's the situation like there?"

Maxim: "It's f... OK."

Wife: "OK? I understand."

Maxim: "We have nothing to do, so we go and rob the mall."

Wife: "Beware, in the name of Christ."

___

DOI: Propaganda

Maxim and his mother discuss the opposing stories about the war that are being told on Ukrainian and Russian televisions. They blame the United States and recite conspiracy theories promoted by russian state media.

Dar Maxim și mama sa cred că ucrainenii sunt cei care sunt amăgiți de știrile false și de propagandă, nu ei. Cel mai bun mod de a pune capăt războiului, spune mama sa, este să îi ucidem pe președinții Ucrainei și Statelor Unite.

Mai târziu, Maxim îi spune mamei sale că mii de soldați ruși au murit în primele săptămâni de război – atât de mulți încât nu mai este timp să facă nimic în afară de a transporta cadavrele. Nu asta se spune la televiziunea rusă, spune mama lui.

Maxim: „Aici, totul este american. Toate armele.”

Mama: „Americanii sunt cei care conduc asta, bineînțeles! Uită-te la laboratoarele lor. Dezvoltă arme biologice. Coronavirusul a început literalmente acolo.”

Maxim: "Yes, I've seen somewhere that they used bats."

Mom: "Everything. Bats, migratory birds and even the coronavirus could be their biological weapon."

Mother: "They even found all these papers with signatures from the US all over Ukraine. Biden's son is the mastermind behind all this."

Mother: "When will it end? When they stop supplying weapons."

Maximum: "Mhm."

Mother: "Until they catch Zelensky and execute him, nothing will end. He's a fool, a fool! It's a puppet for the U.S. and they really don't need it, the fool. You watch TV and you feel sorry for the people, for the civilians, some who run away with young children."

Mom: "If I was given a gun, I would go and shoot Biden." (Laughter)

Maxim: (Laughs)

___

THREE: War and Peace

The Ukrainian government intercepted Russian conversations when their phones used Ukrainian mobile phone towers, providing important real-time information to the military. Now, the talks are also potential evidence for war crimes.

But the phones were dangerous for soldiers in another, more personal sense. The phone acts as a real-time bridge between two incompatible realities – the war in Ukraine and at home.

In Maxim's conversations with his wife, war and peace clash. Even while she teaches their daughter the rules of society – scolding the child for throwing things away, for example – Maxim talks about what he stole. His wife's world is full of school crafts and the sounds of children playing outside. In his, volleys of gunfire break the air.

One evening in March last year, Maxim had trouble keeping his composure during a conversation with his wife. He had drunk, as he did every night.

He told him that he killed civilians — so many that he thinks he's going crazy. He said he might not get home in life. He stood there, drunk in the dark, waiting for the Ukrainian artillery strikes to begin.

Wife: "Why? Why do you drink?".

Maxim: "Everyone is like that here. It's impossible without it here."

Wife: "How the hell are you going to protect yourself if you're drunk?".

Maxim: "Absolutely normal. On the contrary, it's easier to shoot ... civilians. Let's not talk about it. I'm going to go back and tell you what it's like here and why we're drinking!"

Wife: "Please, be careful!".

Maxim: "Everything will be fine. Honestly, I'm also afraid of c... me. I've never seen such a hell like this. I'm shocked."

Wife: "Why the hell did you go there?"

A few minutes later, he talks on the phone with his child.

"Are you coming back?" the child asks.

"Of course," maxim says.

FOUR: The end?

In their last intercepted conversation, Maxim's wife appears to have a premonition.

Wife: "Is everything okay?"

Maxim: "Yes. Why?"

Wife: "Be honest with me, is everything okay?"

Maxim: "What? Why are you asking?"

Wife: "It's nothing, I just can't sleep at night."

The maxim is a little panty. He and his unit are preparing to leave. His wife asks him where they are going.

"Before," he tells her, "I won't be able to call for a while."

quote:

Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:58 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:
Google translate vertaling:
[..]

SPOILER

Om spoilers te kunnen lezen moet je zijn ingelogd. Je moet je daarvoor eerst gratis Registreren. Ook kun je spoilers niet lezen als je een ban hebt.

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:54 schreef heywoodu het volgende:

[..]
Geloof er helemaal niks van, Oekraďne heeft wel andere dingen aan z'n hoofd lijkt me

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:59 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:
China Reportedly Negotiating with Russia To Supply Kamikaze Drones
The U.S. and Germany have warned China not to deliver weapons to Russia. According to information obtained by DER SPIEGEL, however, Beijing and Moscow are said to be negotiating the purchase of 100 strike drones, which could be delivered as soon as April.
======================
Bingo has reportedly agreed to manufacture and test 100 ZT-180 prototype drones before delivering them to the Russian Defense Ministry by April 2023. Military experts believe the ZT-180 is capable of carrying a 35- to 50 kilogram warhead.

Lees verder: https://www.spiegel.de/in(...)f0DZCxpPYDCQgO1dEMph

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:23 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:
check die luchtverdediging die blind alle kanten op schiet
[ twitter ]

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 18:13 schreef StateOfMind het volgende:

[..]
"Wagner almost certainly now commands 50,000 fighters in Ukraine and has become a key component of the Ukraine campaign," according to the UK Ministry of Defence.

It says the organisation started recruiting in large numbers last year because Russia had trouble finding people for the regular army.

About 80% of its troops in Ukraine have been drawn from prisons, according to the US National Security Council.

Before Russia's invasion of Ukraine, it is thought the Wagner Group had only about 5,000 fighters.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60947877

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 18:51 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:
Rusland knecht gaat naar Kyiv? 🤔🤔🤔
[ twitter ]

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:27 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:
[ twitter ]

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:51 schreef koos_vriendloos het volgende:
Veel geluid over een mogelijke interventie door oekraine in transnistrie vanacht op uitnodiging van moldova

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Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 22:58 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:
Google translate vertaling:
[..]

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Op vrijdag 24 februari 2023 00:20 schreef Korenfok het volgende:

[..]
veel geluid dat dit russische propaganda is voor hun false flag!

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Op vrijdag 24 februari 2023 00:54 schreef cherrycoke het volgende:
Lukashenko - I advise you to listen to what Xi Jinping has to say about this conflict tomorrow. In the most attentive way, because this statement by China is a new step, an original step that will have serious consequences in the world"