De Turkse genocide door Armeniers

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Op zondag 15 maart 2015 10:41 schreef TitusPullo het volgende:

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Daar zijn gevallen van bekend, ja. Het is alleen net zo relevant voor de vraag of de Turkse genocide echt gebeurd is als vragen of Vom Rath gedood is en of er na de oorlog Duitsers uit Oost-Duitsland verdreven zijn in het geval van de Holocaust.

Hebben Duitse Joden op grote schaal Duitse dorpen aangevallen en uitgeroeid voor en tijdens WO II? Zijn Duits- Joodse soldaten op grote schaal gedeserteerd en hebben ze zich aangesloten bij de tegenstanders tijdens WO II? Kan jij je dat voorstellen? Duitse Joden die bij de SS of in het Nazi leger zitten? Zijn Nazi's bestraft door de Nazi's omdat ze Joden hebben vermoord? Is er een bevel geweest vanuit de Nazi regering om Joden te beschermen tijdens WO II?

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Op zondag 15 maart 2015 10:37 schreef Momo... het volgende:
De Turken en de Armeniërs hebben beide elkaar veel leed aangericht.
Maar de Turkse genocide heeft dus wel gewoon plaatsgevonden.
Dat Nationalistische geblaat van Turken altijd, ga dan bij ome Erdogan in het land wonen

Als Turken een genocide hebben iitgevoerd op Armeniers, dan hebben Armeniers ook een genocide uitgevoerd op Turken. Waarom wordt er alleen gezegd dat Turken een genocide hebben uitgevoerd? Waarom wordt er noet gezegd dat Armeniers een genocide hebben uitgevoerd?

Verklaring van General Lieutenant a.d. Bronsart von Schellendorfeen Duitse officier in de Deutsche Algemeine Zeiting, 24 juli 1921

"Since all the able Moslem men were in the army, it was easy for the Armenians to begin a horrible slaughter of the defenseless Moslem inhabitants in the area. They did not just go against the Turkish Eastern front army from a flank or at its back, but they simply cleaned out the Moslem inhabitants in those areas. They performed gruesome deeds, of which I, as an eye witness honestly say that they were much worse than what Turks have been accused of as an Armenian atrocity."

Nog een quote van Luitenant Generaal von Schellendorf, uit de Algemeine Zeitung van 24 juli 1921.

The unusually difficult task to keep thousands of Moslem refugees and in another area Armenians on their assigned marching ways, to lead, feed, find shelter for them all, was over-whelming to the too few who could not cover the masses, nor most often had no idea of how to do so. Talaat did his utmost to help. Even into my hands came requests and demands to the Army to assist whenever possible, to provide food, shelter, doctors and medicine to the civilians under way. Unfortunately, even with all the help that was possible, thousands of Moslems as well as Armenians died.

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Op zondag 15 maart 2015 12:21 schreef Kaneelstokje het volgende:
Polderturk, waarom zit je er zo erg mee dat mensen zeggen dat Turken een genocide hebben gepleegd?

Omdat ik de feiten ken en ik weet dat er gelogen wordt. Als ik de feiten had bestudeerd en tot de conclusie was gekomen dat de Turken ongelijk hebben, dan had ik dat graag toegegeven. Het is heel moeilijk om aan te geven dat het officiele verhaal niet klopt. Je krijgt een hoop bagger over je heen. Ik vind het echt helemaal niet leuk om te doen.

Het zou best kunnen hoor dat de Turken een genocide hebben uitgevoerd. Echter, de feiten en bewijzen spreken dit tegen. Als wat de Turken gedaan hebben tegen Armeniers een genocide genoemd wordt, dan moet wat de Armeniers hebben gedaan tegen Turken en Koerden ook genocide genoemd worden. Als dat niet gedaan wordt, dan zijn de betrokkenen oneerlijk en op een smerige manier bezig.

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Op zondag 15 maart 2015 12:46 schreef Kaneelstokje het volgende:

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En de talloze geschiedkundigen die deze zaak ook hebben bestudeerd, kennen niet de feiten? Jij kunt onmogelijk toegang hebben tot meer bronnen dan zij. Bovendien lijken zij me meer onafhankelijk dan jij in dit geval.

De Turken hebben hun eigen archieven volledig vrijgegeven. Ook zijn er meerdere historici in de Russische, Britse en Amerikaanse archieven gedoken. De bewijzen uit deze archieven steunen vooral de Turkse kant van het verhaal. Turkije heeft Armenie aangeboden een gezamenlijke commissie op te richten om de bewijzen te onderzoeken. Armenie heeft dit voorstel verworpen. Waarom lees je anders even niet heel dit topic door?

Edit

Het Niles en Sutherland report werpt een ander licht op deze kwestie. Voor het hele rapport, zie de link hieronder. pro-Armeense deskundigen beweren dat Armeniers helemaal geen genocide hebben uitgevoerd en dat er maximaal 10.000 moslims zijn omgebracht door de Armeniers. Onder andere Ericr van dit forum beweert dit. Dit werd ook herhaald in het programma Bloedbroeders. In werkelijkheid zijn er veel meer moslims afgeslacht door de Armeniers.

http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Niles_and_Sutherland.pdf

Kapitein Emory Niles en Mr Arthur Surtherland waren Amerikanen die de opdracht hadden gekregen van de VS regering om de situatie in Oost-Anatolie te onderzoeken. Hun rapport zou als basis dienen voor het verlenen van hulp aan Armeniers door het American Committee for Near East Relief. Het volgende is een citaat uit hun rapport:


In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are the Armenian quarters, as was evidenced by churches and inscriptions on the houses, while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed. Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed.

Nog een ander citaat:

In this region [Bayazit-Erzurum] the racial situation is intensely aggravated by the proximity to the frontier of Armenia, from which refugees are coming with stories of massacres, cruelty and atrocities carried on by the Armenian Government, Army and people against the Musulman population. Although several hundred Armenians are actually living in the vilayet of Van, it would seem impossible that Armenians could live in the rural regions of the vilayet of Erzerum, since the utmost hatred of them is manifested by all. Here also the Armenians before retiring ruined villages, carried out massacres, and perpetrated every kind of atrocity upon the Musulman population and the doings of the Armenians just over the frontier keep alive and active the hatred of the Armenians, a hatred that seems to be at least smoldering in the region of Van. That there are disorders and crimes in Armenia is confirmed by refugees from Armenia in all parts of the region and by a British officer at Erzerum.

Uit het rapport haal ik ook het volgende

Population
City of Bitlis

Musulman
before war: 30,000
August 1919: 4,000

Armenian
before war: 10,000
August 1919: -

Een groot deel van de Armeniers zijn gevlucht of gedeporteerd naar Syrie. Maar je ziet dat de bevolkingsafname van moslims groter is dan de afname van Armeniers.


Houses intact
City of Bitlis

Musulman
before war: 6.500
August 1919: -

Armenian
before war: 1.500
August 1919: 1.000

Zoals je kan zien zijn alle huizen in moslimwijken vernietigd door de Armeniers. Moslimwijken zijn o.a. te herkennen aan de moskeeen en islamitische symbolen. De Armeense wijken zijn te herkennen aan de kerken en aan de christelijke symbolen.

Laten we nu naar de stad en provincie Van kijken


Population
Vilayet of Van (provincie Van)

Musulman
before war: 301,000
August 1919: 150,000

Armenian
before war: 68,000
August 1919: 700


Population
City of Van

Musulman
before war: 43,000
August 1919: 5,000

Armenian
before war: 35,000
August 1919: 60 (not included 100 in hospital and orphanage)


Houses intact
City of Van

Musulman
before war: 3,400
August 1919: 3

Armenian
before war: 3,100
August 1919: 1,170

En dit is alleen Bitlis en Van. De Armeniers hadden dus flink huis gehouden. Het is niet waar dat Armeense bendes niks hadden gedaan of maar heel weinig hadden gedaan. Ze hebben op grote schaal slachtingen verricht. Lees ook het volgende stuk uit het Nederlands Handelsblad van 1920. Een Fransicaner monnik had het volgende gezegd:

Ik heb mijn rapporten van missies, uitgezonden door mijn orde in Beyazıt, Van, Erzurum, Erzincan; uit de rapporten weet ik, dat in 1915 toen de oorlog met Rusland begon, het de Armeniers waren, die achter het Turkse leger de revolutie aanwakkarden en de Turksche dorpen en nederzettingen ontvolkten en met den grond gelijk maakten. De verdere gebeurtenissen, die daarna in Turkije voorvielen, waren alleen de gevolgen van deze eerste vijandelijke houding der Armeniers.

Hier drie verschillende perspectieven van dezelfde gebeurtenissen in Kars. Het Armeense perspectief, het Turkse perspectief en het perspectief van Amerikaanse hulpverleners in het gebied


What Armenians say:


Source 1: "...But the troops which entered the city spared neither women, children nor the aged. For five days these bloodthirsty soldiers and the Kurds perpetrated upon the head of the peaceful population atrocities which wee beyond the imagination of man. Armenians alone they killed. Everyone was looted indiscriminately.
They did not even spare the Communists who presented certificates proving identification. In Kars alone 6,000 Armenians fill victim to Turkish brutality.

Mass arrests of Armenians followed the terrible massacre. They stripped them from head to foot, and in hundreds they dispatched them to work in Erzurum and Sarikamish. Those sent were struck down by cold and died from hunger and suffering."

Source 2: "Soon the fortress of Kars fell" and "Atrocities continued in localities which remained in Turkish hands. It has been reliably reported that in Kars alone more than 10,000 Armenians were killed."


What Turks say:

This victory which I gained by a counter-offensive was a great success; and despite the fact that we destroyed a large part of the enemy army and conquered a modern fortress, we suffered few casualties: 9 dead and 47 wounded.

In my order to attack Kars, I had stated the following: "The goal of this offensive is to destroy the principal Armenian forces within Kars or to drive them out of Kars." As a matter of fact my soldiers proved that they were a disciplined, powerful, modern army, and that they possessed remarkable humane feelings. Despite the fact that they had successfully attacked a modern fortress such as Kars, they did not commit the slightest harm against the city's civilian Armenian population."


What American observers say:

"All the Americans in Kars are well, and the Turkish Army is full of concern for us and accords us all considerations. We have been given permission to continue our activities as before. The Turkish soldiers are well disciplined and there have been no massacres."
Edward Fox, District Commander N.E.R. Kars


Now let's see how these Armenians you love to defend behaved according to the Americans:

"By this time the bullets were flying thick and fast. The soldiers [Armenians] from the forts were pouring down into the valley road, and Armenian cavalrymen led their horses at a run down the steep flights of stone steps leaving from the forts. The Turkish soldiers standing on the heights fired at the retreating Armenian troops who took refuge among the women and children on the road, and this resulted in the death of many non-cambatants. Considering the jam on the road it is remarkable that many more were not killed. I roughly estimate the dead in the falley to number fifty."


"...The Turkish forces were far inferior to the Armenians, but the latter put up no fight and ran away in the most cowardly manner. The soldiers threw away their guns, stripped off their equipment, and hid in the hospitals and orphanages belonging to the Near East Relief Committee when the Turks entered Kars. There was hardly a shot fired from the Kars fortifications and there were no troops to withstand the advance of the Turks, who marched in as if on parade. The Armenian soldiers in many cases hid in the beds with sick children. The Turks in their advance into Armenia did not do any massacring, but did, after the occupation of Kars, execute a few Armenians.""


"All the Armenians, both civil and military, ran, crowding into the narrow river gorge which runs between the forts, and where the NER headquarters is situated. They robbed and plundered first what they could, NER Armenian workers were as bad at this as anyone, stealing blankets and what else they could from the orphanages. For an hour or so the gorge was a scene of chaos. Armenian soldiers hid under the children's beds in the institutions; the Turks appearing on the heights fired indiscriminately into the crowds in the valley below...
Just what Armenian generals committed suicide is hard to find out. Mizimanoff certainly did. Piramoff was cut off, surrounded and taken prisoner. There is doubt whether my Saarikamish friend, Merimanoff, committed suicide or was killed. Some of the few officers who did not run shot their men for doing so, when the valley was crowded with military and the entire civil population of the town....

The three days looting that followed was not organized, and was done as much by Armenian refugees as by Turkish soldiers. A good deal of NER stuff was taken, but the Turks subjected the Americans to few inconveniences and demands...

"They [the Turks] have arrested about sixty, all told, of our men here, which is about 1/10 of our employees. They have released some thirteen of fourteen of our most necessary employees... We have had much trouble through the Armenians, either from spite or to curry favor with the Turks, informing on their own people and manufacturing the evidence themselves. The Turks have apparently not flagrantly ill-treated the men they take, and so far we have not heard of any executions."

http://www.h-net.org/~fisher/hst373/readings/lowry-bristol.html

"letters between Bristol and James Barton, the Secretary of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions, which took place in the early months of 1921. Bristol writes:

"I see that reports are being freely circulated in the United States that the Turks massacred thousands of Armenians in the Caucasus. Such reports are repeated so many times it makes my blood boil. The Near East Relief have the reports from Yarrow and our own American people which show absolutely that such Armenian reports are absolutely false. The circulation of such false reports in the United States, without refutation is an outrage and is certainly doing the Armenians more harm than good. I feel that we should discourage the Armenians in this kind of work, not only because it is wrong, but because they are injuring themselves. In addition to the reports from our own American Relief workers that were in Kars and Alexandrople, and reports from men such as Yarrow, I have reports from my own Intelligence Officer and know that the Armenian reports are not true. Is there not something that you and the Near East Relief Committee can do to stop the circulation of such false reports? I was surprised to see that Dr. McCallum sent through a report along this line from Constantinople. When I called attention to the report, it was stated that it came from the Armenians but the telegram did not state this, nor did it state that the Armenian reports were not confirmed by our own reports."

And the response:


James Barton's response to Bristol's letter suggests that this may well have been the motivation behind McCallum's "Massacre of 80,000 Armenians Telegram." Barton replies:

"With reference to the false reports that come through reporting massacres of the Armenians by the Turks. There is no one who can deprecate this more than I do. But there is a situation over here [in the U. S.] which is hard to describe. There is a brilliant young Armenian, a graduate of Yale University, by the name of Cardashian. He is a lawyer, with offices down in Wall Street, I believe. He has organized a committee so-called which has never met and is never consulted, with mr. Gerard as Chairman. Cardashian is the whole thing. He has set up what he calls an Armenian publicity bureau or something of that kind, and has a letterhead printed. Gerard signs everything that Cardashian writes. He told me this himself one time.... We have had many a conference with Armenian leaders as to what can be done to stop this vicious propaganda carried on by Cardashian. He is constantly reporting atrocities which never occurred and giving endless misinformation with regard to the situation in Armenia and in Turkey. We do not like to come out and attack him in public. This would injure the whole cause we are all trying to serve."