Bewijs dat Armeense "genocide" leugens vernietigt

In deze topic wil ik voor eens en voor altijd aantonen dat het Armeense genocide verhaal een fabeltje is. Het Armeense verhaal is namelijk dat de Turken 1,5 miljoen onschuldige Armeniers uitgeroeid heeft en dat er geen sprake was van enig verzet van Armeense zijde. De Turkse versie is dat er een grote Armeense opstand was. Dat Armeniers massaal zich bij het uitbreken van WO I aansloten bij Rusland. Dat er een burgeroorlog was uitgebroken in oost Turkije waarbij Armeniers en Turken elkaar afslachten en dat de Turken geen andere keuze hadden dan het deporteren van de Armeniers. De meeste Armeniers zijn tijdens de tocht omgekomen door honger en ziekten waar de Turken ook onder te leiden hadden.

Allereerst het bewijs dat er een grote Armeense opstand was en dat Armeense bendes op beestachtige wijze Turkse en Koerdische dorpen aan het aanvallen en uitroeien waren (wat overigens ook kan doorgaan voor genocide)

"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.

Van had een bevolking van 40.000. Ik was met een Armeniër aan het discussieren. Hij claimde dat de Turken waren omgekomen omdat de Armeniërs zich tegen de Turken verdedigden. De bevolking is echter teruggebracht van 40.000 naar 1500. Van deze 40.000 zijn er 20.000 vrouwen. Worden in een defensieve oorlog ook vrouwen vermoord? Van de 20.000 mannen zijn misschien de helft kinderen. Worden kinderen ook vermoord bij een defensieve oorlog? Moesten de Armeniërs zich ook tegen vrouwen en kinderen verdedigen? De Armeniër had daar geen antwoord op.

" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun."


"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth." A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936.


"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920." Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91

"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself.” Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.

"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the
Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages
that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages
with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the
village and often burn the village." Admiral Mark Bristol, Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death..." Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146.

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars (Turks), and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stones and dust, and when the villages became untenable and the inhabitants fled from them into the fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work." Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.

"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives." F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951),

“As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre of the Tartar population” W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, “Caucasian Battlefields”, Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481

"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919


"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."

Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
General Bronsart von Schellendorf , Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921


Nu een aantal aanhalingen die laten zien dat Armeense kinderen worden grootgebracht met haat voor Turken:

"For too many years Armenian mothers had lulled their children to sleep with songs whose theme was Turkish fierceness and savagery." Ohanus Appressian, lending testimony to how innocent Armenian children are subjected to the brutality of racism by their parents; their "Love NOT Thy Neighbor" churches are also known to join in this hatred bandwagon. Men Are Like That, 1926.

"... It's better that I be a dog or a cat, than a Turkish barbarian..." Edna Petrosyan, a SIX YEAR OLD Californian girl who recites hateful poems on the insistence of her mother. The Los Angeles Times, February 1, 1990

"Who wants to defend Turks?"
Pauline Kael, "When The Lights Go Down," 1980, p.499

"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..." Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918, page 301)

Nog een quote van Morgenthau. Wat Morgenthau heeft geschreven wordt gebruikt door Armeniërs om de Armeense genocide te bewijzen.

"I have really found it impossible to sit down and dictate a letter quietly. So I have instructed (Hagop) Andonian to take my diary and copy it with some elaborations of his own. Of course this relieves me of all responsibility for any error." Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (Lowry, 1990; Franklin Delano Roosevelt Presidential Library, New York, Letters; Box 7 May 11, 1915; Box 1 ­ 2 September 1, 1915; Box 8 July 13, 1915)

Zoals je kunt lezen had Morgenthau een ARMEENSE werknemer die hij het bevel gaf zijn eigen gedachtes toe te voegen. Is dat nu een onafhankelijke en betrouwbare bron? Er waren veel Armeense werknemers in de Amerikaanse ambassade.

Zijn sommige westerlingen echt objectief genoeg om in staat te zijn de Armeense kwestie te kunnen beoordelen? Lees het volgende:

"The Turks are a human cancer, a creeping agony in the flesh of the lands they misgovern, rotting every fiber of life. I am glad that the Turk is to be called to a final account for his long record of infamy against humanity."
David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, getting ready to annihilate the last remnants of the dying Ottoman Empire.

De volgende quotes laten zien dat de Armeniers in opstand waren gekomen met als doel een interventie van buitenlandse mogendheden te realiseren.

"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)

"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."
Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).

"The aims of the revolutionary committees are to stir up general discontent and to get the Turkish government and people to react with violence, thus attracting the attention of the foreign powers to the imagined sufferings of the Armenian people, and getting them to act to correct the situation."
Graves, the British Consul in Erzurum, reporting to the British Ambassador in Istanbul, on January 28, 1895. British Blue Book, Nr. 6 (1894), pp. 222-223

"The Dashnaks and Hunchaks have terrorized their own countrymen, they have stirred up the Muslim people with their thefts and insanities, and have paralyzed all efforts made to carry out reforms; all the events that have taken place in Anatolia are the responsibility of the crimes committed by the Armenian revolutionary committees."
Williams, The British vice-consul, writing from Van. (March 4, 1896, British Blue Book, Nr. 8 1896, p.108.)
-------------------------------
"The Protestant missionaries distributed in large numbers to various places in Turkey made propaganda in favour of England and stirred the Armenians to desire autonomy under British protection" Horen Ashikian, The Armenian Patriarch, in "History of Armenia." (Mr. Ashikian was probably quoted, and was not the writer of this book, of which there were several... by process of elimination, the book was probably either the 1936 one written by V.C. Vahan, or one by Vahan Kurjian, in 1958. Hovhannes, the Fifth Catholicos of the Armenians, also wrote a book by the same name in 1912.)

"Correct behavior"
Marechal Franchet d'Esperay, a French commander of the allied occupation army, referring to the Turkish people and military authorities. From the preface of Commander Larcher's "The Turkish War within the First World War."


"The Dashnak revolutionary society is working to stir up a situation in which Muslims and Armenians will attack each other, and thus pave the way for Russian intervention "
General Mayewski, Russian Consul General in Bitlis and Van, December 1912; source: Kara Schemsi, Turcs et Armeniens devant l'Histoire, Geneve, Imprimerie Nationale, 1919, p. 11


"(The Ottoman State) has used its right to defend its existence against Armenian organisations that had fomented and incited disorders and rebellions at the instigaion of the Russians by relying on Russian arms."
Leo (Arakel Babakhanian), Armenian historian, Turkahai Heghopokhutian Kaghaparapanoutiunu (The Ideology of the Revolution of Turkish Armenian), published in Armenian,1934, Paris)

"The outcry and clamor of Armenians and Turks have been persecuting Armenians are nothing but lies. The Turkish government has done nothing evil to Armenians. Perhaps Armenians have planned a revolution taking advantage of the indifference of the government, have armed bands and sent them to mountains, as for the Turks, perhaps they have been trying only to pursue them and put down the uprisings."
Austrian Consul in a report submitted to his government, Nikerled Krayblis, Rusya'nin fiark Siyaseti ve Vilayet-i fiarkiyye Mes'elesi [Eastern Policy of Russia and the question of the Eastern Provinces], translated by Habil Adem, Istanbul, 1932, p. 178

"The truth is that the party (Dashnak Committee) was ruled by an oligarchy, for whom the particular interests of the party came before the interests of the people and nation. They (the Dashnaks) made collections among the bourgeois and the great merchants. At the end, when these means were exhausted, they resorted to terrorism, after the teachings of the Russian revolutionaries that the end justifies the means."
Dr. Jean Loris-Melikoff, La Revolution Russe et les Nouvelles Republiques Transcaucasiennes, Paris, 1920, p. 81

"The most opportune time to institute the general rebellion for carrying out the immediate objectives was when Turkey was engaged in war"
Louise Nalbandian, Armenian Revolutionary Movement, University of California Press, 1963

"As soon as the Russians have crossed the borders and the Ottoman armies have started to retreat, you should revolt everywhere. The Ottoman armies thus will be placed between two fires. On the other hand, the Armenians in the Ottoman army should desert their units with their weapons and unite with the Russians"
Dashnak committee order to the Armenians preparing to revolt within the Ottoman Empire

"The entire Armenian Nation will join forces “ moral and material, and waving the sword of Revolution, will enter this World conflict ... as comrades in arms of the Triple Entente, and particularly Russia. They will cooperate with the Allies, making full use of all political and revolutionary means for the final victory of Armenia, Cilicia, Caucasus, Azerbayjan. ... [H]eroes who will sacrifice their lives for the great cause of Armenia.... Armenians proud to shed their blood for the cause of Armenia...."
Hunchak Armenian [Revolutionary] Gazette, in a call to arms just prior to the formal declaration of war against Germany and the Ottoman Empire, November 1914 issue, Paris.

"The Armenians have taken their place on the side of the Entente states without showing any hesitation whatsoever; they have placed all their forces at the disposition of Russia; and they also are forming volunteer battalions."
Horizon, the Dashnak Society's official organ, as soon as Russia declared war on the Ottoman Empire

"The Hunchak Committee will use all means to assist the Entente states, devoting all its forces to the struggle to assure victory in Armenia, Cilicia, the Caucasus and Azerbaijan as the ally of the Entente states, and in particular of Russia." Hunchak Committee instructions to its organizations in Ottoman territory; Aspirations et Agissements Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la Proclamation de la Constitution Ottomane, Istanbul, 1917, pp. 151-153

"The volunteer Armenian regiments in the Caucasus should prepare themselves for battle, serve as advance units for the Russian armies to help them capture the key positions in the districts where the Armenians live, and advance into Anatolia, joining the Armenian units already there."
Papazyan, the Armenian representative in the Ottoman Parliament for Van, in a published proclamation; he would soon turn out to be a leading guerilla fighter against the Ottomans

“The long-anticipated day of deliverance for the Turkish
Armenians is at hand and the Armenians are prepared for any sacrifice made necessary by the performance of their manifest duty.”An Ottoman-Armenian newspaper, probably one of the two published in Van ("Van Kartali" or "Araratli"), as quoted in The New York Times article, ARMENIANS FIGHTING TURKS ("Besieging Van”Others operating in Turkish Army's Rear,") November 7, 1914

"...These gangs were advancing by plundering and pillaging (nehib ve garet) the properties/goods (emvalini) of the Moslem villages they passed through and massacred and destroyed even babies in cradles...." Ottoman Royal Army report describing the actions of 10,000 Armenian committee men (acc'd to the Armenian Catholicos V. the Kevork, B.A. Boryan, Armeniya Mejdunarodnaya Diplomatiya; SSSR. Cast 11, Moskva, 1929, p. 363) regarding the uprising started in "Shitak Country" on April 17, 1915, followed by further riots by Armenians in the entire province of Van, culminating in the Russians' entry of Van on May 19th, causing some 30,000 Turks to flee with heavy losses.

"From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian arms... Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of Russia." Samson Harutunian, president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis, in response to Czar Nicholas II's visit to the Caucasus, to make final plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans. (Source)

"As demonstrated by the innumerable declarations, provocative pamphlets, weapons, ammunition, explosives, & c., found in areas inhabited by Armenians, the rebellion was prepared for a long time, organized, strengthened and financed by Russia. Information was received on time in Istanbul about an Armenian assassination attempt directed at high ranking state officials and officers." General Bronsart v. Schellendorf , Chief of Staff to the Ottoman Commander-in-Chief, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921

"When war broke out the Armenians of these regions [the Eastern provinces] made secret contact with the Russian authorities in the Caucasus, and an underground network was created which enabled recruits to be gotten from these Turkish provinces for the Russian Army."
Philips Price, A History of Turkey, 1956, p. 91

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 17:21 schreef DrWolffenstein het volgende:
Ja, en nu? Niemand beweert dat de Armeniërs lieve mensen waren. Dat maakt de genocide op de Armeniërs er echter niet minder op.

Feiten:
- Voor en tijdens WO I werden de Armeniers opgehitst door de Engelsen en Russen om in opstand tegen de Turken te komen
- Tijdens WO I komen de Armeniers massaal in opstand en slachten duizenden Turken af, waaronder vrouwen en kinderen (zie bewijzen die ik ga leveren)
- De Armeniers snijden voorraad aanvoerlijnen van het leger af. Voorraad aanvoer is van CRUCIAAL belang in een oorlog. Zonder munitie en granaten kun je niet vechten, laat staan een grootschalige oorlog winnen
- De Turken waarschuwen de Armeniers op te houden met hun activiteiten, echter de Armeniers luisteren niet
- De Turken besluiten tot relocatie van de Armeniers. De Armeniers worden tijdens hun tocht voedsel en medicijnen beloofd. Ook wordt huisvesting beloofd. De Turken hadden geen andere keuze dan de relocatie.
- De Turken zijn echter bij een massale oorlog betrokken. Ze moeten aan vijf fronten tegelijk vechten om de landsgrenzen te verdedigen. Alle middelen zijn nodig aan het front. Hierdoor konden de Armeniers niet goed van voedsel worden voorzien
- Veel Armeniers sterven van honger en ziekten, echter ALLE Turken hebben hier last van door grote tekorten in het rijk
- Het getal van 1,5 miljoen Armeense doden is onmogelijk. In het Ottomaanse rijk woonden volgens Ottomaanse tellingen 1,3 miljoen Armeniers en volgens Engelse tellingen zelfs 1.056.000 Armeniers. Volgens de Armeniers zelf waren er aan het einde van de oorlog nog 1 miljoen Armeniers in leven.

De Turken hadden ze een kans gegeven op te houden met hun verderfelijke activiteiten. Had je zulk humaan gedrag van de Turken niet verwacht?

"Wanneer de Armeense ingezetenen van de voorgenoemde steden en dorpen die moeten worden gereloceerd, worden overgebracht naar hun nieuwe plaats van vestiging en zich onderweg bevinden, dient hun welzijn verzekerd te zijn en hun levens en goederen beschermd. Na hun aankomst ter plekke dienen de kosten voor voedsel betaald te worden uit het Fonds voor Vluchtelingen totdat zij zich definitief gevestigd zullen hebben in hun nieuwe behuizing. Eigendommen en land dienen onder hen verdeeld te worden overeenkomstig hun voormalige financiële situatie en hun huidige behoeften; en voor hen die verdere hulp nodig hebben, dient de regering huizen te bouwen en de landbouwers en de handwerkslieden te voorzien van zaad, landbouwwerktuigen en gereedschap."

[b]The third article of the law states that the law will come into effect on the date of its publication. Finally, on 30 May the Council of Ministers took the following decision
It is absolutely necessary to annihilate and destroy by effective operations this possible harmful activity which has a bad effect on the war's operations which are designed for the benefit of protecting the state's security and existence.

The goal of the operation begun by this order of the Ministry is obvious. It is stated in the memorandum of the Ministry of the Interior that the Armenians who must be transferred, of those residing in the towns and villages, will be sent to their allotted local dwellings. Their transfer will be made in comfortable circumstances, their comfort will be provided on the way, and their lives and possessions will be protected. Until they are settled in their new dwellings, they will be fed through funds of the emigrants' appropriation. In proportion to their previous economic and financial condition, they will be given property and lands; the Government will construct dwellings for the needy ones, will distribute seeds for sowing, tools, and implements to the farmers and craftsmen who need them. Possessions and belongings left behind will be returned to them in an appropriate way. After the value of the possessions and immovable property belonging to the transferred emigrants has been calculated and registered, it will be distributed to the immigrants. Immovable properties such as warehouses, factories, shops, orange groves, vineyards, olive groves, orchards, which would remain outside the specialized sphere of the immigrants, will be sold at auction, or will be leased, and their value will be deposited in financial offices for safe-keeping to be paid to their owners. A regulation has been implemented by the said Ministry to the effect that the expenditures arising from these transactions and procedures be paid from the appropriation set aside for the emigrants. Through this decree, the administration and maintenance of the abandoned properties will be ensured. The general transactions concerning the emigrants will be accelerated, regulated and supervised. Commissions will be formed, which will employ salaried officials who will have the duty and authority, and who will be directly dependent on the Ministry of the Interior. These commissions will be composed of one president and two appointed members, one of whom will be selected from among the officials of the Ministry of the Interior, and the other from among the officials of the Ministry of Finance. These commissions will be sent to their regions, and the quarters where a commission will be present, the Governor will submit to the said Ministry a note stating that they have begun the application of the said regulation, and they will give information to the responsible departments.
These are the texts concerning the relocation decision. As can be seen, the text does not even mention the word `relocation'. The temporary law says `transfer and settle in other quarters', the note of the Ministry of the Interior and the decision of the Council of Ministers refers to `transferring' and 'settling' in the designated and appointed quarters.

[b]Armenian File (2001) van Kamuran Gurun pag. 209

[b][url="http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/ottoman_armenian.htm"]http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/ottoman_armenian.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/2b_145.htm"][b]http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/2b_145.htm[/url]

("[url="http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/2b_145.htm"]145- Providing food for the Armenian convoys[/url]

. [url="http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/listdocuments.htm"][b].http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/listdocuments.htm.[/url]
.
Hier zijn meer van dergelijke humane houding van Turken te vinden.
..[/b].[/b].[/b][/b][/b]

Er zijn nog nooit bewijzen gevonden voor een opdracht tot genocide. Er zijn echter wel opdrachten gevonden van de Ottomaanse regering waarin aangegeven werd dat er tijdens de relocatie van de Armeniers er zo goed mogelijk voor de Armeniers gezorgd diende te worden en dat ze geholpen dienden te worden tijdens de tocht.

Ook is aangetoond dat Armeniers vele malen bewijs vervalst hebben.

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 17:25 schreef Citizen.Erased het volgende:
Vrij delicaat onderwerp zover ik weet. Verschillende wetenschappers en historici erkennen de genocide, waaronder ook Nederland en de EU.

Dat zijn vooral pseudo wetenschappers of wetenschappers die de Armeense kwestie nooit serieus onderzocht hebben. Wetenschappers die de feiten objectief onderzocht hebben kunnen maar één conclusie trekken, namelijk dat er geen sprake was van een genocide. Ik zal zo direct wat stukken van top wetenschappers plaatsen.

Armeense soldaten in Ottomaanse dienst deserteerden massaal met volledige wapenuitrusting
Ver voor de oorlog begon sloegen de Armeniers wapens op in Armeense kerken die ze onder andere van Russen gekregen hadden


"(The Ottoman State) has used its right to defend its existence against Armenian organisations that had fomented and incited disorders and rebellions at the instigaion of the Russians by relying on Russian arms."
Leo (Arakel Babakhanian), Armenian historian, Turkahai Heghopokhutian Kaghaparapanoutiunu (The Ideology of the Revolution of Turkish Armenian), published in Armenian,1934, Paris)

"As soon as the Russians have crossed the borders and the Ottoman armies have started to retreat, you should revolt everywhere. The Ottoman armies thus will be placed between two fires. On the other hand, the Armenians in the Ottoman army should desert their units with their weapons and unite with the Russians"
Dashnak committee order to the Armenians preparing to revolt within the Ottoman Empire[/QUOTE]

Eerder had Ton Zwaan het volgende geschreven als reactie op het artikel van McCarthy in de volkskrant:

quote:

maar in tegenstelling tot wat hij beweert was er destijds geen sprake van 'een verschrikkelijke oorlog tussen Turken en Armeniërs', noch van een 'grote opstand' van de Armeniërs."

Ton Zwaan is een professor aan de universiteit van Leiden.

Het staat 100% vast dat er een grote opstand was onder de Armeniers. Dit maakt hem totaal ongeloofwaardig. Lees de bewijsstukken die ik geplaatst heb. Ze maken gehakt van de beweringen van Ton Zwaan. Hier volgen een aantal relevante quotes:


"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38


" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun."

"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth." A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936.


"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 17:21 schreef DrWolffenstein het volgende:
Ja, en nu? Niemand beweert dat de Armeniërs lieve mensen waren. Dat maakt de genocide op de Armeniërs er echter niet minder op.

Het officiele verhaal is nu eenmaal dat er geen Armeense opstand was en dat de Turken zomaar 1,5 miljoen Armeniers heeft vermoord. Ik wil aantonen dat dat officiele verhaal niet klopt.

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 17:43 schreef Tomboo het volgende:
Haha zelf ook lekker gehersenspoeld, altijd leuk die "bronnen".

Het meerendeel van deze bronnen zijn afkomstig uit buitenlandse archieven en kranten uit die tijd.

Het bewijs dat er geen 1,5 miljoen Armeniers omgekomen zijn:

Hier is een lijst van de tellingen van de Armeniërs in het Ottomaanse Rijk van die tijd:

-Volgens het Franse Gele Boek: 1.555.000;

-Volgens de Encyclopedia Brittanica: 1.500.000;

-Volgens Constenson: 1.400.000,

-Volgens Lynch: 1.345.000;

-Volgens de officiële Ottomaanse volkstelling van 1914: 1.295.000;

-Volgens het Jaarlijkse Register (Londen); 1.056.000.

Zoals je kunt zien fluctueren de cijfers van westerse bronnen tussen de 1 miljoen en 1,5 miljoen Armeniërs die in het rijk woonden. De Ottomaanse tellingen liggen er met hun 1.295.000 in het midden. Voor belastingtechnische redenen was het voor de Turken belangrijk zo goed mogelijk het aantal Armeense inwoners te weten. De Turken hebben dus volgens de Armeniërs meer Armeniërs omgebracht dan dat er Armeniërs waren. De Turken waren dus zo wreed dat ze veel Armeniërs meerdere malen vermoord hebben. Bogos Noubar, het hoofd van de Armeense delegatie op de Vredesconferentie van Parijs, verklaarde dat er na de oorlog nog 280.000 Armeniërs in Turkije leefden en dat 700.000 Armeniërs waren gemigreerd naar andere landen. Volgens de schatting van Bogos Noubar, bedroeg de totale Armeense bevolking van voor de oorlog 1.300.000. Het aantal Armeense slachtoffers kan dus nooit boven de 300.000 zijn geweest.

Hieronder een quote van Morgenthau. Wat Morgenthau heeft geschreven wordt gebruikt door Armeniërs om de Armeense genocide te bewijzen.

"I have really found it impossible to sit down and dictate a letter quietly. So I have instructed (Hagop) Andonian to take my diary and copy it with some elaborations of his own. Of course this relieves me of all responsibility for any error." Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (Lowry, 1990; Franklin Delano Roosevelt Presidential Library, New York, Letters; Box 7 May 11, 1915; Box 1 ­ 2 September 1, 1915; Box 8 July 13, 1915)

Zoals je kunt lezen had Morgenthau een Armeense werknemer die hij het bevel gaf zijn eigen gedachtes toe te voegen. Is dat nu een onafhankelijke en betrouwbare bron? Er waren veel Armeense werknemers in de Amerikaanse ambassade.

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 17:48 schreef Big-Ern het volgende:
Het is maar waar je je na al die vele vele jaren maar druk om kan maken. Kijk eens vooruit ipv achterom!

Dat moeten de Armeniers en de westerlingen die Turken van genocide beschuldigen dat ook maar gaan doen.

Lijst van professoren die de Armeense genocide in twijfel trekken:

Sarah Moment Atis

Associate Professor of Turkish
Language & Literature
Univ. of Wisconsin at Madison

Karl Barbir

Associate Professor of History
Siena College (New York)

Ilhan Basgoz

Director of the Turkish Studies
Program at the Department of
Uralic & Altaic Studies
Indiana University

Daniel G. Bates

Professor of Anthropology
Hunter College, City
University of New York

Luke Bates

Professor of Art History
Hunter College, City College
of New York

Gustav Bayerie

Professor of Uralic & Altaic
Studies
Indiana University

Andras G.E. Bodrogligetti

Professor of Turkic & Iranian
Languages
University of California at
Los Angeles

Kathleen BurriIl

Associate Professor of Turkish
Studies
Columbia University

Timothy Childs

Professorial Lecturer
SAIS, Johns Hopkins University

Shafiga Daulet

Associate Professor of Political
Science
University of Connecticut

Roderic Davison

Professor of History
George Washington University
Washington. D.C.

Walter Denny

Professor of Art History &
Near Eastern Studies
University of Massachusetts

Dr. Alan Duben

Anthropologist Researcher
New York City

Ellen Ervin

Research Assistant Professor
of Turkish
New York University

Caesar Farah

Professor of Islamic & Middle
Eastern History
University of Minnesota

Carter Findley

Associate Professor of History
The Ohio State University

Michael Finefrock

Professor of History
College of Charleston

Alan Fisher

Professor of History
Michigan Stale University

Cornell Fischer

Assistant Professor of History

Washington University (Missouri)

Peter Golden

Professor of History
Rutgers University, Newark

Tom Goodrich

Professor of History
Indiana University of Pennsylvania

Andrew Gould

PhD. in Ottoman History
Flagstaff, Arizona

William Griswold

Professor of History
Colorado State University

Tibor Halasi-Kun

Professor Emeritus of Turkish
Studies
Columbia University

William Hickman

Associate Professor of Turkish
University of California, Berkeley

J.C. Hurewitz

Professor of Government Emeritus
Former Director of the Middle
East Institute (1971-1984)
Columbia University

John Hymn

Professor of History
Glenville State College
West Virginia

Halil Inalcik

University Professor of Ottoman
History & Member of The
American Academy of Art
& Sciences
University of Chicago

Ralph Jaeckel
Visiting Assistant Professor of
Turkish
University of California
at Los Angeles

Ronald Jennings

Associate Professor of History
Asian Studies
University of Illinois

James Kelly
Associate Professor of Turkish
University of Utah


Kerim Key

Adjunct Professor
Southeastern University
Washington, D.C.

Metin Kunt

Professor of Ottoman History

New York City

Frederick Latimer

Associate Professor of History,
Retired
University of Utah


Avigdor Levy

Professor of History
Brandeis University


Bernard Lewis

Cleveland E. Dodge Professor
of Near Eastern History
Princeton University

Dr. Heath W. Lowry

Institute of Turkish Studies, Inc.
Washington, D.C.

Justin McCarthy

Associate Professor of History
University of Louisville

Jon Mandaville

Professor of the History of
tire Middle East
Portland State University (Oregon)

Michael Meeker

Professor of Anthropology
University of California
at San Diego

Rhoads Murphey

Assistant Professor of Middle
Eastern Languages & Cultures
and History
Columbia University

Thomas Naff

Professor of History & Director,
Middle East Research Institute
University of Pennsylvania

Pierre Oberling

Professor of History

Hunter College of the City
University of New York


William Ochsenwald

Associate Professor of History
Virginia Polytechnic Institute

Robert Olson

Associate Professor of History
University of Kentucky

William Peachy

Assistant Professor of the Judaic &
Near Eastern Languages &
Literatures
The Ohio State University

Donald Quataert

Associate Professor of History
University of Houston

Howard Reed

Professor of History
University of Connecticut

Dankwart Rustow
Distinguished University
Professor of Political Science
City University Graduate School
New York


Ezel Kural Shaw

Associate Professor of History
California State University,
Northridge

Stanford Shaw

Professor of History
University of California
at Los Angeles

Elaine Smith

PhD. In Turkish History
Retired Foreign Service Officer
Washington, D.C.

Grace M. Smith
Visiting Lecturer In Turkish
University of California
at Berkeley


John Masson Smith, Jr.
Professor of History
University of California
at Berkeley

Dr. Svat Soucek
Turcologist, New york City


Robert Stash

Assistant Director of the Middle
East Center
University of Utah

June Starr
Associate Professor of
Anthropology
SUNY Stoneybrook

James Stewart-Robinson

Professor of Turkish Studies
University of Michigan

Dr. Philip Stoddard

Executive Director Middle
East Institute

Washington, D.C.

Frank Tachau

Professor of Political Science

University of Illinois
at Chicago

Metin Tamkoc

Professor of International Law
& Relations
Texas Tech University

David Thomas

Associate Professor of History
Rhode Island College

Margaret L. Venzke
Assistant Professor of History
Dickinson College (Pennsylvania)

Warren S. Walker

Horn Professor of English &
Director of the Archive of
Turkish Oral Narrative
Texas Tech University

Donald Webster

Professor of Turkish History,
Retired


Walter Welker

Professor of Political Science
Rutgers University

John Woods

Associate Professor of Middle
Eastern History
University of Chicago

Madeline Zilfi

Associate Professor of History
University of Maryland

Lees en huiver. De Armeense bendes hadden gedetailleerde beschrijvingen over hoe ze Turkse dorpen moesten aanvallen. Met welk doel zou je een dorp kunnen aanvallen?

Another similar document titled “Müdafaa-i Şahsiyye İçin Talimat [Instructions of Self Protection]” and bearing the signature of Toman was printed in 1910 and was distributed by the thousands. Although it poses as self protection, this document actually prescribes various ways of wiping out Muslims. On page 4, after explaining which weapons should be used under each circumstance, it goes on to explain how to raid on villages and set them on fire as follows:

“There are three kinds of villages. (1) Armenian villages among other Armenian villages that are habited by Armenians, (2) Villages habited by Armenians but located among villages which are habited by others, (3) Villages where Armenians live altogether with others.

“In all three types of villages, organizations bear no difference. They all should join the “forces” with their ammunition and weapons. The forces are divided as (1) stationary and (2) mobile. Each force should be assigned a chief and an assistant to the chief. The mobile and stationary forces should each elect an experienced chieftain for their village. These chieftains will be the ultimate authority in the villages and all the forces in that village will be under his command. These chieftains will be the representatives of the government and of the armed forces in their villages. All village chieftains will get together to elect three persons in their district as temporary armed command commissions. These government representatives (Erkanı Harbiye Heyeti) and the commander will have the power to collect arms from disabled users and redistribute them to more experienced persons during skirmishes. Messengers should be formed to inform nearby village forces in case of a surprise attack on a village. If the Armenians living as minority among others find themselves under attack and if they are unable to get help in time, they should collect their valuables and move in to other Armenian villages.

“In villages where the enemy numbers are fewer than Armenians, the former should be asked to leave if they have not done so on their own. Those who do not leave could be taken as hostage depending on the situation and the decision of the government.

“During skirmishes, doors will be kept open and those who are escaping from the army or police forces will be allowed to enter. Civilians wandering around without weapons should be forbidden. The villagers have to pay for any weapons lost to the enemy. Weapons taken over from the enemy belong to whoever confiscates them.”


“In order to attack villages:
1) Fortification points of enemy villages must be known.
2) The escape routes must be decided beforehand and kept under control of the outpost.
3) Villages that may aid to enemy must be explored beforehand and must be prevented.
4) Only three sides of the village to be attacked must be kept under siege. One side must appear like an escape route for the residents. (If contained from all four sides, the enemy may counter attack and endanger our victory.) Only a small contingent should be hidden on the fourth side to press and to inflict casualties on them. Actually, the real reason to leave an open side is to assure speedy victory by dividing the enemy’s forces, more so than allowing an escape route to them.
5) Attacking at dawn would surprise the enemy. Attacking earlier would cause us losses while waiting for the light.
6) In order to create chaos and commotion, fires must be started in different places at the same time and expanded. Necessary equipment must be prepared beforehand.
7) If there are no cavalrymen among the attackers, spare horses must be brought along to carry the wounded and the dead bodies into the Armenian villages so that they cannot be identified.

“A few days before the attack, strong and reliable agents selected by our Chief Armed Forces (Erkanı Harbiye Heyeti) must be sent to the targeted village. They must stay there as long as it requires to collect the necessary information. Consequent attack preparations must be planned based on these agents’ reports.”

Bekijk deze video van Bernard Lewis:



Hij is een wetenschapper van formaat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis

"Lewis is a widely-read expert on the Middle East, and is regarded as one of the West’s leading scholars of that region.[2] His advice has been frequently sought by policymakers, including the former Bush administration.[3] In the Encyclopedia of Historians and Historical Writing Martin Kramer, whose Ph.D. thesis was directed by Lewis, considered that, over a 60-year career, he has emerged as "the most influential postwar historian of Islam and the Middle East."[1] He is also famous for his public debates with the late Edward Said concerning the latter's book Orientalism (1978), which harshly criticized Lewis."

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 18:03 schreef Juup© het volgende:
Wat een hoog blaat gehalte heeft dit topic. Veel copy paste maar geen eigen mening.

Mijn mening is duidelijk: de Armeense genocide claims bestaan voornamelijk uit leugens.

Een stuk van professor Norman Stone:

Norman Stone: Genocide lies are based on distorted, forged, one-sided history
“The more vociferous Armenian diaspora historians like to claim that 'historians' support them but this is just not true. Quite the contrary: on the whole, the people who know the subject at first-hand do not accept the thesis of 'genocide'.”

“The whole business of 1915 remains murky, but perhaps I can bullet-point some of it. I can easily supply references for these, but I think that anyone familiar with the subject - including diaspora historians - will know my sources. In general, Professor Lewy's book (University of Utah Press) will serve in this respect.


The documents allegedly proving the genocide are forgeries, and the British law officers who were trying to find evidence over a four-year period of occupation in Constantinople refused to use them. With much regret, they said that they could not establish a case against some hundred men whom they were holding. The State Department were unable to help. This has not stopped the diaspora Armenians in France from using the most notorious of these forgeries (the 'Naim-Andonian documents') in their museum in the south of France.
The Ottomans themselves in 1916 put on trial some 1300 men for crimes committed during the deportation of the Armenians in 1915, and executed a governor.
The Armenians' leader, Boghos Nubar, was offered a post in the Ottoman cabinet in 1914, but turned it down on the grounds that his Turkish was not up to it.
The figure given by Boghos Nubar to the French for Armenian losses for use in the post-war treaties was 700,000. Most died of disease or starvation, but in eastern Turkey at the time at least one quarter of the entire population, Moslem and Christian, died of such causes. It was a terrible time.
The internal Ottoman documents talk of 'deportation', in the context of widespread Armenian nationalist risings in the early spring of 1915. The Russians and the French (on Cyprus) used Armenian regiments and legionaries.
The Armenian populations of Istanbul, Izmir and Aleppo were not affected by the deportation order….. “

“The diaspora Armenians have never allowed this to come before a properly-constituted and competent court. Instead, they prompt parliamentary and other bodies to 'recognize the genocide'.”


“I might add incidentally that I consider myself neutral and I have never written anything to deny the possibility that a genocide (in the classic sense) was considered. However I do not think that the evidence that we have really adds up, and I quite agree with Professors Lewis,
Lewy and Veinstein. “

23 August 2007


PROFESSOR NORMAN STONE,

Stone's books of greatest note are The Eastern Front 1914-1917 (1975) which won the Wolfson History Prize.[2] Also Hitler (1980), and Europe Transformed 1878-1919 (1983) which won the Fontana History of Europe Prize.[3]

He published a regular column in the Sunday Times between 1987 and 1992, and helped comment for many news services, including the BBC, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, and the Wall Street Journal.[6]

During this same time Stone also became Margaret Thatcher's foreign policy advisor on Europe,[3] as well as her speech writer.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Stone

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 18:17 schreef Injetta het volgende:
Het zal zeker genuanceerder liggen dan er nu heel kort door de bocht door diverse landen wordt beweerd.

Wat lastig blijft in deze hele kwestie is dat ook Turkije de geschiedenis vervalst heeft. Zoals trouwens altijd gebeurt bij oorlogen. Beide kanten geven hun versie weer.
Zelfs als de hele wereld mee kijkt (zoals tegenwoordig) komen partijen met heel verschillende aantallen doden bijv.
Zo hebben volgens de ene partij Israëli onschuldige Palestijnse kinderen afgeslacht en volgens de andere partij hebben de Palestijnen bewust kinderen ingezet om Israël voor het blok te zetten en als slechteriken af te schilderen.

De oorlog tussen Armenen en Turken is nogal lastig te reconstrueren. Geschiedkundigen komen tot tegengestelde conclusies.

Wat ik wel apart vind is het aantallen probleem.
Als het inderdaad zo is dat er ca. 1.2 miljoen Armenen waren in Turkije, dan kunnen er inderdaad nooit 1.5 miljoen zijn gedeporteerd, want er zijn er ook nog al overgebleven zowel in Turkije als in allerlei andere delen van de wereld.

Maar... wat volgens mij dus wel vaststaat is dat de Turkse regering de mensen is gaan deporteren (verplaatsen). De vraag gaat er dus nu om: hoeveel en hebben ze ze daarbij bewust afgeslacht of de dood in gejaagd?

De deportatie op zich is natuurlijk ook al niet iets om trots op te zijn. Maar dat is nog geen genocide.

Verder kunnen wij in Nederland nu wel heel geschokt doen over het feit dat de Turkse regering niet wil toegeven dat er genocide is gepleegd. Iets dat dus niet zomaar voor honderd procent is vastgesteld.
De Nederlandse regering heeft volgens mij ook heel veel moeite gehad om de verderfelijke rol van de Nederlanders in Indonesië toe te geven.

En Surinamers die het hebben over de slavernij worden weggehoond. Dat is immers al zo lang geleden en ze hebben er toch een mooi eigen landje aan overgehouden???

En hoe leerden we geschiedenis op school?
De Nederlanders als geweldige handelsvaarders. Een aaneenschakelijking van heldendaden door de tijden heen.

Het zou wat betreft de Armeense kwestie wel goed zijn als er eens een goed rapport kwam waarbij zoveel mogelijk de kale feiten in staan, zodat er iets van een waarheid naar boven kan komen. Door een club mensen die geen enkel band heeft met Turkije of Armeniërs en ook geen vooringenomen standpunt heeft.

Mijn dank is groot voor dit eerlijke stuk Injetta

Nog eens stuk van Norman Stone:

http://www.independent.co(...)itten-it-460022.html

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 20:52 schreef Duvel het volgende:
Lijst van users die het geblaat van de polderturk in twijfel trekken:
Duvel

etc.

Je stelt daarnaast dat Nederland ook moeilijk deed over het toegeven van de misdaden in toenmalig Nederlands Indië. Maar een van de cruciale verschillen is dat dit momenteel wèl wordt toegegeven en dat er in Nederland over gesproken en gediscussieerd kan worden, in tegenstelling tot het extreem nationalistische Turkije, waar ook maar de kleinste hint richting "Armeense genocide" al leidt tot gevangenisstraf wegens minachting van de Turkse trots of iets dergelijks.

Oh, en je Turkse ambassadeur terugtrekken als er iets onwelgevalligs gezegd wordt getuigt natuurlijk ook niet echt van een volwassen kijk op internationale relaties.

Turkije heeft al zijn archieven vrijgegeven voor onderzoek. Waarom doet Armenie niet hetzelfde? Turkije heeft Armenie aangeboden de gebeurtenissen samen te onderzoeken. Waarom weigert Armenie dit?

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 20:08 schreef Startertjes het volgende:
Beste fasciste polderturk,

Op diverse fora van neo-nazi's heb ik overtuigendere "bewijzen" gezien dat de holocaust niet heeft plaatsgevonden dan wat jij hier hebt gedumpt om het systematisch uitroeien van meer dan 1.000,000 te ontkennen.
Jij bent het ultieme bewijs van de extreem nationalistische en fascistische inslag van Turken.

Het is duidelijk dat jij de bewijzen in deze topic niet hebt gelezen. Anders had je geweten dat er MAXIMAAL 300.000 Armeniers zijn omgekomen tijdens de oorlog en dat de meeste Armeniers omgekomen zijn aan de gevolgen van honger en ziekten. Lees eerst alle bewijzen in deze topic voordat je weer krankzinnige dingen gaat uitkramen. Reageer alstublieft op een van de bewijzen of reageer helemaal niet. Je maakt jezelf op deze manier alleen maar belachelijk.

quote:

Op maandag 5 april 2010 21:04 schreef Duvel het volgende:

[..]

Ja, da's als Holleeder die naar Endstra stapt: "Zal ik je helpen met het onderzoek naar je afpersing?"

Drol.

Waarom reageer je niet op een van de bewijzen ipv zulke achterlijke uitspraken te doen? Reageer eens hierop: