De Beursvloer #72: Faber's nieuwsbrief

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Op donderdag 2 april 2009 13:49 schreef edwinh het volgende:

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je kunt het je kunt het beiden als positief beschouwen haha

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Light At The End Of The Tunnel ...



By Nouriel Roubini, 04.02.09, 12:01 AM EDT

Dim and distant, but a glimmer nonetheless!

I was interviewed on Tuesday on CNBC's "Squawk Box" on my views on the economy, the stock market, the problems with the banks, the Geithner plan and whether there's light at the end of the tunnel.

As I pointed out in the interview, the rate of economic contraction will slow from the -6% of the first quarter to a figure closer to -2%. And next year the economic recovery will be so weak--growth below 1% and the unemployment rate peaking at 10%--that it will still feel like a recession even if we may be technically out of it. So, compared with the bullish consensus that sees positive growth at 2% by the third and fourth quarters of this year and a return to potential growth by 2010, my views are consistently more bearish.

Still, compared with the sharp contraction in U.S. and global growth in the first quarter of this year, the rate of economic contraction will slow down for the U.S. and other advanced economies by year-end. That is only a mild improvement in what is still a severe U-shaped recession, with a very weak and tentative recovery by 2010.

I also pointed out on CNBC that the stock market has predicted six out of the last zero economic recoveries. For the last 18 months, we've had six bear market rallies, and at the beginning of each one of these suckers' rallies the delusional perma-bulls repeated that this was the beginning of a bull market rally. And for six times these perma-bulls were totally wrong as the rally fizzled and new lows were reached. And for six times I correctly pointed out that these were bear market rallies.

But such perma-bulls have no shame in showing up over and over again on CNBC and talking up their books and being proved wrong over and over again. As I have never been a "perma-bear," in spite of the "Dr. Doom" nickname, I will be the first one to call the bottom of this severe recession and the bottom of the bear market when I see sustained evidence of robust and consistent economic recovery.

I see the latest rally as another bear market rally, as over the next few months, the news--macro news, earnings news, financial news, corporate default news, financial firms insolvency news and so on--will be worse than expected by the consensus. Look how wobbly the stock market was on Monday when the expected news that the Big Three are in Big Trouble led to a 3% to 4% market fall. Do you listen to Tim Geithner, who says that some banks need "large amounts of assistance," and who is now pushing--like Bernanke--for fast-track Congressional approval of a law that will allow the takeover of systemically important financial institutions and bank holding companies? This market recovery has still very shaky legs, and it will continue to lurch until the U.S. and global economic recovery does occur and is more robust and sustained.

The global economic contraction is still very severe: In the Eurozone and Japan there is no evidence of "green shoots" or positive second derivatives; and in the U.S. and China such evidence is still very, very weak. So investors and markets are way ahead of actual improvements in economic data. And the idea that stock prices are forward-looking and bottom out six to nine months before the end of a recession is incorrect.

First, we've already had six bear market rallies and, despite the "prediction" of stock prices, not a single economic recovery. Second, in 2001 a short and shallow eight-month recession was over by November, but stock prices kept falling for another 16 months until March 2003. This time around, the recession will be of at least 24 months duration--three times as long and five times as deep, in terms of GDP contraction, as the one in 2001. This time the deflationary forces are global, not just in the U.S. and Japan. This time we have the worst financial and banking crisis since the Great Depression, while in 2001 there was no banking crisis. This time we've got the worst housing recession since the Great Depression, with home prices still bound to fall another 15% to 20% for a cumulative fall of 40% to 45%. This time corporate default rates on junk bonds are predicted by Moody's to peak at 20%, not the 13% of the previous recession.

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Op donderdag 2 april 2009 15:08 schreef Dutchguy het volgende:

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Dat gevoel heb ik nou juist helemaal niet. Ik maak me enorm zorgen om het feit dat de Duitse economie ingeklapt is wetende dat dat onze grote handelspartner is. Ik maak me zorgen om het grote aantal faillisementen. Ik maak me zorgen om de enorme Amerikaanse staatsschuld die de volgende generaties weer terug moeten zien te brengen naar enigszins normale niveaus. Ik maak me zorgen om wat er nog aan rotzooi bij grote banken op de balansen staat. Ik ben bezorgd omdat 'too big to fail' ook 'too big to save' zal kunnen blijken te zijn. Ik maak me zorgen om de druk die China met name uit kan oefenen op de VS als grootste schuldeiser en wat dat politiek gaat betekenen.

De beurs is voor mij alleen een graadmeter van het collectieve sentiment en als zodanig niet erg interessant. Het gaat mij om hoe verrot de fundamenten van de wereldeconomie zijn en dat lijkt niet mee te gaan vallen. Interessante maar spannende tijden.

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Op donderdag 2 april 2009 15:35 schreef Oizno het volgende:
Wel zalig als je gister volop Océ ingekocht zou hebben.

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Op donderdag 2 april 2009 15:42 schreef pberends het volgende:

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http://money.cnn.com/gall(...)s.fortune/index.html
8 doemdenkers aan het woord.

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In my view, U.S. stocks are still not attractive. Historically, you buy stocks when they're yielding 6% and selling at eight times earnings. You sell them when they're at 22 times earnings and yielding 2%. Right now U.S. stocks are down a lot, but they're still very expensive by that historical valuation method. The U.S. market is yielding 3% today. For stocks to go to a 6% yield without big dividend increases, the Dow will need to go below 4000. I'm not saying it will fall that far, but it could very well happen. And if it gets that low and I'm still solvent, I hope I'm smart enough to buy a lot. The key in times like these is to stay solvent so you can load up when opportunity comes.

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In terms of the stock market, the price/earnings ratio is no longer high. I use a P/E ratio in which the price is divided by ten-year average earnings. It's a really conservative way of looking at it. That P/E ratio got up to 44 in the year 2000, which was a record high. Recently it was down to less than 13, which is below the average of around 15. But after the stock market crash of 1929, the price/earnings ratio got down to about six, which is less than half of where it is now. So that's the worry. Some people who are so inclined might go more into the market here because there's a real chance it will go up a lot. But that's very risky. It could easily fall by half again.