Rusland en Georgië #5

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Russian forces mass against Georgia, says official

10 Aug 2008 02:23:11 GMT

Source: Reuters

TBILISI, Aug 10 (Reuters) - Russia has brought 6,000 troops into Georgia and a further 4,000 troops by sea and is preparing to attack Georgia at dawn, a Georgian Interior Ministry official said early on Sunday.

"All of them are waiting for dawn to start active actions. Georgia faces a humanitarian catastrophe," Shota Utiashvili, the head of the Georgian Interior Ministry's information department, told Reuters. (Reporting by Margarita Antidze, Writing by Richard Balmforth)

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:28 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:

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Ja, en dat soort lui gaat om hulp vragen bij de erflaters van juist degenen die hen in dit parket hebben gebracht.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:29 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:
Rusland en later de Sovjetunie waren imperialisten (onderwerpers van vreemde volkeren) bij uitstek.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:36 schreef Nasi het volgende:

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Dus?

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:38 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:

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Dat klopt, ook de Perzen en de Turken konden er wat van en de Mongolen niet te vergeten.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:37 schreef Drugshond het volgende:

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Mwah, in het tijdsgewricht geef ik Rusland geen ongelijk. En nu juist bij en aspirant NAVO-lid wordt een pas op de plaats gemaakt. (timing is perfect).
Maar goed Georgie kan me niet zo boelen.... Oekraïne kan nog leuk worden.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:39 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:

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Het gaat Rusland om de olie, niet om dat pathetische zogenaamde volkje, ze sloten een pact met....

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:44 schreef Nasi het volgende:

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Ze hebben zelf al olie/gas in Siberie..?

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:45 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:

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Door het bergachtige gebied en vele etnische verschillen, hebben de Russen en later de Sovjets het gebied nooit goed onder controle gekregen.

Verdeel en heers was de tacktiek daar.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:45 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:

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Meer is beter.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:52 schreef Nasi het volgende:

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Dat word weer leopards aanschaffen !

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:52 schreef Nasi het volgende:

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Dat word weer leopards aanschaffen !

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:54 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:

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Die 70.000 is wat er bij Georgië hoort, de rest woont in Rusland.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 05:01 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:

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Alle Osseten bijelkaar zit je rond een miljoen.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 05:15 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:

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Die 2 Polen in die Mannschaft lag toch nog aardig gevoelig.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:57 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:
Eerlijk gezegd vond ik de koude oorlog heel wat eh stoerder dan dat geouwehoer de laatste paar jaar over de moslims. Dat maakt mijn pis niet lauw.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 05:18 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:

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Heb het niet gevolgd.
Maar 70.000 inwoners joh, waar praten we over.
Hoeveel waren voor dit begon werkelijk actieve seperatisten?
Neem aan een minderheid.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 05:21 schreef Nasi het volgende:

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90% wil bij rusland, 2/3 heeft russisch papoort! waar wil je heen!

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 05:23 schreef Caesu het volgende:
wonen maar 45.000 osseten in z-ossetie.
en 25.000 georgiers dat maakt 70.000.
maar nu zal wel een groot gedeelte of naar georgie of n-ossetie zijn gevlucht.
en de rest is vermoord of ingesloten.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 05:24 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:

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Alsof verhuizen in dit land zo snel gaat.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 03:20 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:
Tja, iets groter in oppervlakte dan Friesland?
70.000 inwoners.
Het is natuurlijk een farce om dit het zelfbeschikkingsrecht van volkeren te noemen hè...

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:39 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:

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Het gaat Rusland om de olie, niet om dat pathetische zogenaamde volkje, ze sloten een pact met....

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Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

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Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

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In addition to the spy drones, Israel has also been supplying Georgia with infantry weapons and electronics for artillery systems, and has helped upgrade Soviet-designed Su-25 ground attack jets assembled in Georgia, according to Koba Liklikadze, an independent military expert based in Tbilisi. Former Israeli generals also serve as advisers to the Georgian military. [bron]

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 06:19 schreef NorthernStar het volgende:

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Hey als het bij Kosovo wel kan...
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Pas als de Russen opstomen naar de BTC pijpleiding heb je gelijk, eerder niet.

En als we het over olie hebben....
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Huh? Israel in Georgie?
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Ah er valt wat te verdienen.

Denk dat deze vraag dan ook beantwoord is.
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Geen wonder dat Saakashvili de media in Georgie censureert.

En ze leveren ondanks beloftes dat het niet zo is kennelijk nog steeds wapens:

Georgia denies Israeli arms trade freeze reports

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Gezien dit alles is Jews flee Georgia-Russia border dan ook niet zo verwonderlijk...

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 06:50 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:
Mocht dat zo zijn dan krijgt Israel eens flink de deksel op de neus.

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Israel is concerned that Russia would choose to retaliate against Jerusalem for continued military support of Georgia by lifting restrictions on its arms transfers to Iran and Arab states. [bron]

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 00:06 schreef Ghazi het volgende:
Wanneer wordt Moskou gebombardeerd als vergelding voor de bombardement op Tiblisi?

Heeft de Georgische luchtmacht de reikwijdte om bommen te gooien op Moskou? De Russische agressie en nietsontziende bombardementen mogen niet onbeantwoord blijven.

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Energietransitland
Georgië is voor het Westen strategisch van groot belang als energietransitland. Over het Georgische grondgebied loopt de BTC-pijpleiding die de olievelden van de Kaspische Zee verbindt met de Turkse Middellandse Zeehaven Ceyhan. De pijpleiding loopt via de Georgische hoofdstad Tbilisi, die in vogelvlucht slechts 90 kilometer verwijderd ligt van de Zuid-Ossetische hoofdstad Tskhinvali.

De BTC-pijpleiding werd in 2006 in gebruik genomen en maakt het Westen minder afhankelijk van Rusland voor zijn energiebevoorrading. Begin deze week werd de pijpleiding afgesloten na een brand op Turks grondgebied. De Turkse Koerdische Arbeiderspartij PKK zegt de pijpleiding te hebben gesaboteerd. Ook de Nabucco-gaspijpleiding zal via Georgië het Westen bereiken, als het project ooit van de grond komt.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 05:18 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:

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Heb het niet gevolgd.
Maar 70.000 inwoners joh, waar praten we over.
Hoeveel waren voor dit begon werkelijk actieve seperatisten?
Neem aan een minderheid.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:51 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:
Ja, maar je zei eerder al, het lag aan belangrijke handelsroutes, er was eeuwenlang kruisbestuiving. Hoe kun je het dan hebben over een eeuwenoud volk van 70.000 inwoners? Stammen misschien, toch geen volk?

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Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia'

Georgia says its forces have withdrawn from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, and that Russian troops are now in control of the regional capital.

An interior ministry spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians from a "humanitarian catastrophe".

Georgia says Russia has brought an additional 10,000 soldiers across its frontiers, readying for a raid.

Earlier, Russian jets bombed a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.

There was no independent confirmation of the attack, although the BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, who was in Tbilisi, said he had heard a loud explosion about the same time.

Georgian troops have pulled back to positions at or south of those held on 6 August, when the current hostilities began, said Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.

He told the BBC that the withdrawal was necessary because of the mass casualties both within Georgia and South Ossetia, at the hands of the Russians.

Mr Utiashvili said 100 Georgian soldiers had been killed and many more injured.

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ARMED FORCES COMPARED

GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550

Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 08:22 schreef Kleffe_Dop het volgende:
Goed, Zuid Ossetië is dus in handen van de Russen. Wat gaat er nu gebeuren?
Kan men terug naar de onderhandelingstafel?
Gaat het Georgische leger zich hergroeperen en met die 10.000 man een tegenaanval lanceren of zich juist ingraven?
Laten de Russen het hierbij of stoten ze verder Georgië in?

Het lijkt me hoe dan ook een onbegonnen strijd voor Saakashvili, de Russen heersen in de lucht en gisteren waren er ook al berichten dat er een Russische vloot gemobiliseerd wordt.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 05:13 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:

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En dan 70.000 in Zuid-Ossetië? .
Waarom verhuizen die dan niet naar het Noorden, als ze toch niet bij die nare Georgiërs willen zitten, en liver heims ins reich willen zijn bij hun 970.000 broeders?
Een Tweede wereldoorlog begin je toch ook niet om Sudeten Deutschland?

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One of the fighters, who gave his name as Zaur, said South Ossetia's history was a struggle against tyranny.

"They are guilty; they started the fighting," Zaur said of the Georgians.

The South Ossetia conflict appeared to have revived local faith in the Kremlin and Vladimir Putin that had been shaken severely in 2004 when Chechen militants took more than a thousand hostages in the North Ossetian town of Beslan, a crisis that ended in the deaths of more than 300, most of them children.

"We are Putin fanatics," one of Zaur's fellow volunteers declared.

Putin, president at the time of Beslan, is now prime minister.

Putin arrived in Vladikavkaz, the provincial capital of North Ossetia, on Saturday to talk to South Ossetian refugees. He said that about 34,000 refugees had been registered as of Saturday night

"The leaders of Russia? They support us," said Zakhar Valeyev, 48, an artist working at a restored Orthodox convent on the banks of the Ardon River, where more than 30 refugees had found shelter. He said he had gone to Tskhinvali on Saturday to plead with his brother to flee, but his brother refused.

Many Ossetians said they were angry with the United States, an ally of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, and accused the U.S. of supporting his military strike to regain control of South Ossetia.

"The world powers don't see the situation in the North Caucasus," said Nona Bagayeva, the head of the convent. "And they don't do anything to stop the situation.

"The whole world has come to hate America," she said.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:29 schreef Ryan3 het volgende:
Rusland en later de Sovjetunie waren imperialisten (onderwerpers van vreemde volkeren) bij uitstek.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 11:45 schreef zuiderbuur het volgende:

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Daarmee ben ik slechts gedeeltelijk akkoord. De Sovjetunie was één van de eerste landen in Europa waar men het nationaliteitenvraagstuk met een federaal systeem wou oplossen. Daarnaast werd er in het begin van Sovjetunie werk gemaakt van de versterking van de verschillende talen (al was er ook grootschalige russificatie, vooral later toen Stalin opkwam). Het is waar dat aan sommige volkeren het Cyrillisch alfabet werd opgedrongen (nadat ze soms een tiental jaren ervoor het Latijnse alfabet hadden moeten aannemen!) maar zij hebben ook voor schrijfsystemen gezorgd voor talen die dat tot op dat moment nog niet eens hadden.
In de Sovjetunie waren trouwens niet alleen de Russen oververtegenwoordigd, maar ook de joden, Duitsers (aanvankelijk), Polen, Georgiërs, Armenen, Tataren,.... (ondervertegenwoordigd waren dan weer de Centraal-Aziaten). In Armenië bijvoorbeeld waren de Russen soms zelfs dan weer ondervertegenwoordigd.

Er waren trouwens best wat invloedrijke Georgiërs in de Sovjetunie, onder wie Stalin en Ordzhonikidze de bekendste zijn.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 08:00 schreef Ringo het volgende:

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Wat dacht je van taalverschillen? Die zijn een stuk groter dan in Europa. Je hebt in de Kaukasus minstens drie prominente taalfamilies: Kaukasische talen (waartoe het Georgisch behoort, plus zo'n twaalf andere talen), Indo-Europese talen (Iraans, Koerdisch, Ossetisch, andere tak het Armeens, wat Griekse enclaves en natuurlijk Russisch) en Turks-Altaïsche talen (onder andere Azeri en Turkmeens). Het zal het bergachtige gebied wel zijn geweest dat voor de versnippering heeft gezorgd (kijk bijv. naar Zwitserland), maar de situatie is sowieso véél complexer dan Europa, dat op Finland en Hongarije na eigenlijk één groot taalkundig continuüm is, van Ierland tot aan Moskou tot aan Athene, allemaal familie. Eén uitzondering: het Baskisch, onze Iberische mystery guest waarvan niemand de oorsprong kent. Maar je weet wat er in díe regio aan de hand is.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 11:47 schreef Burakius het volgende:

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Waarom vertel je er dan niet bij wat de reden is dat er zo weinig Tataren over zijn gebleven. Mijn eigen opa en oma zijn gevlucht uit Rusland door de massamoorden.

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Russian PM Vladimir Putin has suggested it is unlikely that South Ossetia will re-integrate with the rest of Georgia.
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Speaking on Saturday in the nearby city of Vladikavkaz, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused Georgia of seeking "bloody adventures" and trying to drag other countries into the conflict.

In an outspoken attack, he referred directly to Georgia's aspirations to join Nato, a move which Moscow strongly opposes.

Mr Putin described the actions of Georgian soldiers as genocide against the South Ossetian people and defended Moscow's military action to intervene directly.

He said the territorial integrity of Georgia had "suffered a fatal blow".

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 11:53 schreef zuiderbuur het volgende:

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Zijn je grootouders Tataren van de Krim?

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Rusland-Georgië, de 'pijplijn-oorlog'
09 08 08 - 18:00
Georgië heeft de staat van oorlog afgekondigd na Russische bombardementen op diverse steden en militaire basis. Ook bij dit conflict speelt olie een belangrijke rol. Een van de grootste oliepijplijnen ter wereld loopt namelijk door Georgië.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 11:59 schreef HansAEX het volgende:
Ook deze oorlog draait voor een groot deel om olie
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http://www.blikopdebeurs.com/weblog1/pivot/entry.php?id=77

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 11:56 schreef -Strawberry- het volgende:
Tvp. Ik snap deze oorlog niet helemaal... bovendien maakt Georgie geen kans tegen Rusland alleen.
Maar ik mag toch hopen dat de VS zich er niet te veel mee gaat bemoeien.

Dat stukje Georgie wil dus bij Rusland horen en blijkbaar zijn er andere inwonenden die het daar niet mee eens zijn?Ruzie om zo'n klein stukje land....en waarom willen ze eigenlijk persé bij Rusland horen? Door de taal, regering, wat? Blijkbaar moeten er toch behoorlijke verschillen zijn tussen de twee landen. Toch wel typisch, dat als de meerderheid van een gebied bij een ander land wil horen, dat nog kan ook. Al die doden lijken het allang niet meer waard wat mij betreft,

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:03 schreef Het_hupt het volgende:
Oekraine dreigt met Sebastopol af te sluiten

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:10 schreef EricT het volgende:

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Op 1 of andere manier willen landen gewoon oorlog met Rusland

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:09 schreef EricT het volgende:

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Het aantal doden valt nog wel mee hoor, als je het vergelijkt met andere gebieden die onafhankelijkheid/afscheiding/autonomie willen

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 11:59 schreef HansAEX het volgende:
Ook deze oorlog draait voor een groot deel om olie
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http://www.blikopdebeurs.com/weblog1/pivot/entry.php?id=77

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There are many ethnic and historical issues behind the Georgia-Russia conflict. The Ossetians feel a kinship with Russia more than with Georgia, Georgia was set for NATO membership next year, putting a NATO country directly on Russia's border, and Russia has long held sway over the entire Caucasus. And since the West went to war with a Russian ally in Serbia to secure the independence and self-determination of the Kosovar Albanians, they can hardly complain if Russia goes to war with Georgia to secure the same for the Ossetians. But really that is not important: for the world and for Russia it all comes down to energy, to controlling the flow of it. Russia has chosen an effective means of controlling the flow of oil from the Central Asian republics.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:03 schreef Het_hupt het volgende:
Oekraine dreigt met Sebastopol af te sluiten

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:20 schreef Ringo het volgende:

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Bron? altijd handig hè.

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Ook de voormalige Sovjet-republiek Oekraïne mengt zich nu in het conflict. Het dreigt Russische oorlogsschepen die voor de kust van Georgië actief zijn, tegen te houden als ze terug willen naar hun thuisbasis in de Oekraïense havenstad Sebastopol.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:20 schreef Ringo het volgende:

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Bron? altijd handig hè.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:03 schreef Het_hupt het volgende:
Oekraine dreigt met Sebastopol af te sluiten

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 00:06 schreef Ghazi het volgende:
Wanneer wordt Moskou gebombardeerd als vergelding voor de bombardement op Tiblisi?

Heeft de Georgische luchtmacht de reikwijdte om bommen te gooien op Moskou? De Russische agressie en nietsontziende bombardementen mogen niet onbeantwoord blijven.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:02 schreef -Strawberry- het volgende:

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Oh...dat verklaart ook een hoop. Klote olie altijd. Dus Rusland gaat het al niet meer om dat kleine stukje, ze willen heel Georgie gaan onderdrukken zodat ze toegang hebben tot de olie? Jippie...

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:45 schreef icecreamfarmer_NL het volgende:

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Dat vraag ik mij idd ook af een kleine doolittle raid.
Wat ik overigens niet snap is waarom ze de enige weg en tunnel van rusland naar osetie niet hebben gebombardeerd zodat de russische tanks er niet doorheen konden.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:45 schreef Drijfzand het volgende:

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Zo wil Georgië het voorstellen, maar geloof ik niet. De oorzaak ligt bij de onafhankelijkheid van Kosovo, de mogelijke Georgische toetreding tot de Navo, het rakettenschild, etc...

Het door het Westen telkens negeren van Russische bezwaren dus. Nu gaan zij net hetzelfde doen, alle westerse kritiek naast zich neerleggen, en wij kunnen enkel toekijken.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:46 schreef Bartleunen het volgende:

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Lol ze hebben maar 7 vliegtuigen he!! Ze riskeren het echt niet om die ook nog te verliezen.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:46 schreef Bartleunen het volgende:

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Lol ze hebben maar 7 vliegtuigen he!! Ze riskeren het echt niet om die ook nog te verliezen.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 11:58 schreef Burakius het volgende:

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Mijn vaders kant zijn inderdaad Tataren uit de Krim, waar mijn opa weer een Nogay is.
Mijn moeders kant is half-Tjetjeens en half Turks (Oghuz/Seltjoeks U name it.)

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:49 schreef icecreamfarmer_NL het volgende:
Je zult nu trouwens waarschijnlijk gaan zien dat de tjeteense rebellen zwaar gesteund zullen gaan worden

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 07:28 schreef WammesWaggel het volgende:
Wat een prachtig conflict dit, en dan die Shakasvilli en Putin! ze verschillen zo van mekaar, echt een wonderlijk contrast.
Van mij mogen de Russen Georgie hebben hoor, het gaat ze echter nog wel wat levens kosten mochten ze daadwerkelijk mal genoeg zijn om dat te doen.
Enfin, de Russen mogen laten zien dat ze nog enige macht hebben en iedereen weet dat de NAVO toch nog wel ergens goed voor is daar dit niet zo uit de hand gelopen was als Georgie bij de NAVO zat.
Ook Israel en de Oekraine hebben even de Russen met mate mogen gallen, alleen voor de VS is het wat sneu maar die hebben projectjes zat.
Heerlijk, ik geef het conflict nog max twee weken en dat is het weer afgelopen en dat kijk ik weer uit naar de confrontatie met Iran!

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 06:19 schreef NorthernStar het volgende:

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Hey als het bij Kosovo wel kan...
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Pas als de Russen opstomen naar de BTC pijpleiding heb je gelijk, eerder niet.

En als we het over olie hebben....
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Huh? Israel in Georgie?
[..]

Ah er valt wat te verdienen.

Denk dat deze vraag dan ook beantwoord is.
[..]

Geen wonder dat Saakashvili de media in Georgie censureert.

En ze leveren ondanks beloftes dat het niet zo is kennelijk nog steeds wapens:

Georgia denies Israeli arms trade freeze reports

--

Gezien dit alles is Jews flee Georgia-Russia border dan ook niet zo verwonderlijk...

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 04:38 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:

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Dat klopt, ook de Perzen en de Turken konden er wat van en de Mongolen niet te vergeten.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:03 schreef Het_hupt het volgende:
Oekraine dreigt met Sebastopol af te sluiten

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:56 schreef Drijfzand het volgende:

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Door wie? Rusland heeft nu getoond dat ze militair durven ingrijpen als hun belangen bedreigd worden.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 13:08 schreef icecreamfarmer_NL het volgende:

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dat zou een grap zijn maar het is natuurlijk niet gek dat die landen elkaar steunen.
Overigens mocht oekraine er in verzeild raken dan zullen de EU en VS anders reageren

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"Also in the name of a shared Christian heritage, refrain from more clashes and from violent retaliation that can degenerate in a wider conflict," Benedict urged, adding that a resumption of peace talks was required.

"Together with our Orthodox brethren, we pray intensely for these intentions, which we trustingly deliver to the intercession of the Holiest Virgin Mary, Mother of God and all Christians," Benedict said.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 13:24 schreef Mutant01 het volgende:
Georgie associeer ik nu met:

[ afbeelding ]

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 13:12 schreef Bartleunen het volgende:

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Waarom zouden ze dan anders reageren?

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 13:29 schreef kraakschandaal het volgende:

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Het vlagvertoon en zijn optreden bij de VN en op TV laten duidelijk een vooropgezet plan zien.

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 10:49 schreef Burakius het volgende:
Nu moeten de Russen de Tjetjenen ook onhankelijk maken? ( En Nogay's en Tataren ook trouwens).

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Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 12:52 schreef zuiderbuur het volgende:
Ik wist eigenlijk niet dat Sevastopol nog gebruikt werd door het Russische leger. Ze hebben het strikt gezien ook toch niet echt nodig, omdat Rusland zelf ook een kust heeft aan de Zwarte Zee.
Dit lijkt me een gevoelig punt, want zowel Sevastopol als de Krim heeft een Russische absolute meerderheid, en de Krim behoort nog maar sinds 1954 tot Oekraïene.

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Crimean Tatars*

By H. B. Paksoy

The Crimean Tatars are a Turkic people who inhabited Crimean peninsula from at least the 13th century to Word War II, when they were deported to Central Asia by Stalin's orders. Although the Soviet regime "exonerated" them, it has denied permission for the Crimean Tatars to return to Crimea. At present, Crimean Tatars live in diaspora. Large numbers are living in Ozbekistan, or in the principal cities of the Turkish Republic. At various times, other Tatar groupings migrated as far as Helsinki, Finland and New York, while still others stayed in the Dobruja region of Romania. Poland has a small enclave.
Origins and Early History

The word Tatar appears in the Kultigin tablets, which were erected in early 8th century AD and are located close to the Orkhon river near the Mongolian border. These tablets were variously discovered, re-discovered and finally deciphered between the 18th and 20th centuries. According to the inscriptions, Tatars were one of the tribes living in the vicinity of the Altai range of Eastern Asia. During the 11th century, Kashgarli Mahmut, the author of Compendium of Turkic Dialects, noted that Tatars were living around Otuken, next to the Uyghurs. However, Tatars became one of the tribes forcibly incorporated into the Mongol armies by Chinggis Khan, when the Mongols swept through most of Eurasia during the 13th century.

The Latin word "Tartarus," meaning "the infernal regions of Roman and Greek mythology, hence Hell" had already been borrowed into Christian theology by the clergy of Europe. Possibly St. Louis of France was the first, in 1270, to apply this unrelated term to the troops of Chinggis. By the 14th century, this erroneous usage was also extended to the homelands of the Tatars. Consequently that area later known as Central Asia, or Turkistan, was referenced by the European cartographers and authors, including Chaucer, as "Tartary," Tartares," or "Independent Tartary."

By extension the term "Tatar," or "Tartar" was applied by outsiders to almost all groupings of Turkish origin including numerous Turkish confederations present on the Eurasian steppe before 13th century: Kipcahks, Khazars, Pechenegs and a variety of others. These Turkic groups were simply incorporated into the new influx of the 13th century. P. Golden, N. Golb and O. Pritsak provide the details of some of the Turkic Groups already present in Eurasia. Togan and Barthold provide the overview, including the movements of a number of Turkic tribes and confederations. The Mongol leadership was thus absorbed into the Turkic population. By the early 13th century the Mongols encountered by all outsiders --including the Russians-- apparently were speaking "Tatar."

Even Timur (d. 1405), a Barlas Turk (who has been called Tamarlane, Tamburlane, etc. by many authors), was labelled "Tatar." Christopher Marlowe (and, later, Lord Byron) can probably be partly credited with the propagation of this error during the 16th century, as well as for the distortion of Timur's name. Later Western authors argued among themselves as to the "correct spelling" of the word Tatar, some opting for the form "Tartar" based on alleged phonetical studies they conducted. Tatars --and other Turk groups-- seem never to have entertained the thought of including the first "r." Throughout recent history, the term Tatar has been further distorted by other Western authors in applications that had no bearing on the original tribe, descendent or deeds.

The Golden Horde was formed (under Batu Khan, grandson of Chinggis) out of the Western domains of the great Chinggisid Ulus which had reached from Northern China to the Carpathians, including Muscovy. The Golden Horde itself, with its capital at Sarai on the Idil (Volga), dominated the Yayik (Ural)-Idil area, Muscovy, Kievan Rus and the Crimea from its rise in the latter part of the 13th century until the decisive defeat of the Horde under Toktamysh by Timur in the 1490s. However, the Horde was already weakened and fragmented by 1430s, and thereafter one can tentatively begin to speak of an "independent" Crimean Khanate.

During the period of the Golden Horde's greatest power, it excited the fear and curiosity of Europe. The dearth of information about the Tatars contributed to distorted views among outsiders. An historian of early 15th century (quoted by Togan), wrote of the Tatars:

Their thought processes are as swift as their
actions. All information regarding the political
conditions existing on earth arrive in their
quarters. But, no details of their intentions or
thoughts are allowed to leave their domains or
reach other people.

The Tatars, like other Turks in Chinggisid armies, practiced Shamanism. The Western edges of the Eurasian steppe also displayed a varied set of religious beliefs. The Khazar ruling class seem to have embraced Judaism sometime prior to the 9-10th century. Portions of the Kipchak (mainly Gagauz and Pecheneks) became Christians. Some Kipchak Turkish odes to Jesus, written or translated, exist in manuscript form. Despite the inroads made by all major religions, the steppe also preserved the earlier beliefs: be it Shamanism, Taoism, or other remnants that originally arrived from Eastern Asia.

The Tatars had their first flirtation with Islam during the reign of the Chinggisid Berkei Khan (r. 1257-1267). However, Islam was not widely established until after the accession of Ozbeg (1313-1340). Fourteenth century travellers found Islamic communities among Tatars. The acceptance of Islam, perhaps still incomplete at the end of the 14th century, added an additional dimension and points of contention to Tatar political life. It enhanced the existing competition, alternating with open conflict, with Muscovy; it expanded the ethnic and linguistic affinities with the Ottoman dynasty into the realm of formal religion. Nonetheless, the Crimean Tatars' link to the Golden Horde and its Chinggisid lineage, rather than the religious dimension, remained the single most important factor of political life to the end of the 16th century, possibly longer.

Muscovy had paid tribute to the Golden Horde for 240 years, and Tatar dominance was exercised occasionally even after the last payment in 1480. During Horde rule, Moscow became increasingly a player in intra-horde, and later inter-Khanate politics and intrigues, regardless of any religious issues. The fragmentation of the Horde was partly induced by Muscovite agents who were pitting prominent Tatar families against each other to prevent a unity among Tatars. After the disintegration of the Horde, but before the Muscovite conquest of Kazan (1552), the Grand Prince of Moscow and the Khan of Crimea competed to control the appointment of the Kazan Khan. Bennigsen is an early Western observer bringing these issues to the attention of the Western world. Inalcik and Fisher explore later aspects of the competition.

The Tatar political legacy, particularly the concept that political legitimacy lay only with the Chinggisid line, was clearly established under Batu Khan in the mid-13th century and survived at least into the reign of Ivan IV, "The Terrible" (r. 1533-1584). Pritsak even relates an incident in 1574 when the Tsar Ivan:

enthroned Simeon Bekbulatovich as tsar in
Moscow... he himself rode simply... Whenever he
(Ivan) comes to tsar Simeon, he sits at a
distance... together with the Boyars... Who was
this Tsar Bekbulatovich? He was a genuine
Chinggisid, a descendent of Orda, the eldest son
of Jochi, who was also a great-grandson of Ahmed,
the last Khan of the Great Horde.

Both in this political realm and in the areas of culture and language, the influence of tatars on the Russians was enormous. During the rule of the Horde and even after the fall of Kazan to the Russians, bearing a Tatar name or Tatar familial ties were a source of prestige for the Russian nobility. Keenan pointed out how the influence of a "Tatar Style of Writing" is discernible in 18th century Russian literature. Kazakh author Oljas Suleymanov, in his recent analysis of the Igor Tale, long regarded as Russian, presents powerful if controversial evidence that it is in fact adapted from an earlier Turkic work. Inalcik, too, demonstrates how Russian Orthodox clerics between the 14th-17th centuries designed the titles of the Russian ruler largely on the basis of the Mongol and Tatar originals.
Crimean Khanate

Under Haji Giray, who ruled Crimea in the 1440s, one might begin to speak of an "independent" Crimea. In 1475, during the reign of Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II, "The Conqueror" (r. 1451-1481), Crimea became a nominal vassal of the Ottoman Sultan. It was not until the late 16th century that Ottoman power became intrusive. Sultans then were able to unseat and replace recalcitrant khans and the name of the sultan began to be mentioned regularly at the Friday prayer, a symbol of his supreme temporal authority.

Before that time, and occasionally thereafter, the Crimean khans had freely pursued their own policies. They continued to raid Muscovy after the fall of Kazan and even conducted a final raid on the suburbs of Moscow in 1571. As late as the middle of the 17th century, the Crimean Khan made a treaty with Poland against Muscovy. Nonetheless, continued Muscovite control over Idil --with attendant claims to be the legitimate successors to the Golden Horde-- effectively quashed Crimean ambitions to reestablish Chinggisid rule. Crimean Tatars then turned to the Caucasus and Iran in the East and South, and to Hungary to their West.
Crimea under Russian Rule

Catherine II (r. 1762-1796; German princess married Peter --who later became tsar Peter III) separated Crimea from the Ottoman empire and later annexed it to her own empire. The first step was taken in the Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarja (1774), which ended her Russo-Ottoman war of 1773- 74 and provided for the independence of Crimea.

In 1773 Catherine had instructed the Holy Synod to issue a "toleration of All Faiths" edict. She had already closed the Office of New Converts (established by Peter I). Both steps were possibly meant to make the tsarist russian empire more attractive to a Crimea she intended to absorb. In 1777, i.e. after Crimea's detachment from the Ottoman Porte, Catherine ordered preparations for the settlement of Greek and Slavic groups from Ottoman domains in order to strengthen Russia's position there. Catherine annexed Crimea six years later.

Catherine was advised by one Baltic German nobleman that Crimean Tatars, if properly incorporated in a new Russian administration of their homeland, might ultimately prove useful in advancing Her Majesty's imperialist goals in Central Asia. Catherine wished to utilize Tatar merchants, who included itinerant Muslim "clerics," in Islamizing the steppe people. The Russians believed that the adherence to Islam would prevent any union against Russians and make Islamized subjects more pliant. As the Russian empire began preparations for military occupation of Central Asia, special schools were established. In such institutions, Tatars were encouraged to enroll to train as translators and minor officials, for duty in Central Asia to represent and enforce the tsarist interests.

After the Crimean War (1855-6), the Russian empire sought to expel, and indeed induced by force, large numbers of Tatars from Crimea, on the ground that the Tatars sided with the invading allied forces. Hundreds of thousands migrated to the Ottoman domains, to Dobruja, located West of the Black Sea. Portions of the emigrants went directly to Istanbul. As a result of the later Balkan Wars (1912-3), sizeable groupings of Tatars crossed the Bosphorus and settled in various cities in Asia Minor. The armistice (and terms of peace treaty) following the First World War further speeded this process.

Despite the emigrations, there still remained a Crimean Tatar populations living in Crimea in the 19th century, apart from the Tatars of Kazan. This group was urged on to further develop their original culture --which predates the first mention of the word Rus in the Chronicles (e.g. Annales Bertiniani of 9th c.)-- and adapt it to the demands of the age. Such 19th century Crimean and Idil Tatars as Kayyum Nasiri, Marjani, Ismail Bey Gaspirali and others advocated this position. They sought to establish cultural links with other Tatar and Turk groupings living elsewhere in order to prevent a total assimilation by the Russians. This movement was labelled Jadidism, or, convolutedly, "Pan- Turkism." Treated as if a "pan" movement were the plague itself, even today, such "bogey-man" approach is widely applied to any thought even remotely suggesting that Crimean Tatars have a history prior to the coming of the Bolsheviks.

However, those Crimean Tatars remaining in their homeland were also to be subjected to another type of ideological struggle as well --the struggle between kadim (old) and jadid (new). The Jadid movement had begun among Idil Tatars as an attempt to modernize the curricula of the madrasa (loosely, Islamic seminaries). The Jadids advocated the rejuvenation of education by ending blind memorization of a few texts and the addition of such secular courses of study as sciences and Western languages. Those Crimean Tatars who followed this movement and in all spheres of life advocated adapting to the age of science and were known as the Jadidists.

The religious establishment in Crimea, as in the Idil region, resisted these attempts to introduce changes which they interpreted as heretical, and would, in any event, threaten their hold over the education system and the population. Encouraged by the Russian bureaucracy, indeed incorporated into the Russian bureaucracy by a system of appointments and regulations, the Crimean Tatar Muslim clergy insisted on maintaining the strict hold of religious dogma over the Crimean Tatars. This group was named kadimist because they strove to remain the "old," or kadim.
Soviet Period

After the imposition of the Soviet regime in Moscow, Crimea was the scene of brief but bloody conflict between Bolshevik sailors at the port of Sebastopol and the Tatar national organization, the Milli Firka (The National Party). The Milli Firka was entirely in the Jadidist tradition and opposed control of waqf (religious endowments) and schools by the conservative ulama (religious scholar/jurists and administrators; most of whom were kadimist) of the official establishment. Military defeat of the Tatar armed forces at the hands of the Bolsheviks (January 1918) was followed by German occupation in May.

The Germans brought in a Lithuanian Muslim, General Sulkevich, to administer the occupied Crimea. His policies, including the shipping of Crimean food supplies to Germany, earned him and the Germans considerable unpopularity. The withdrawal of German forces in late 1918 was followed by brief rule of the Milli Firka and subsequently by a second communist government. The Red Army had invaded Crimea in April 1919 and established, among other organs of administration, a Crimean Muslim Bureau. Despite its name, the Bureau had little to do with religious affairs and was intended to administer all matters concerning the Tatar population (rather than the Russian settlers). This communist government rejected offers of cooperation in return for power sharing advanced by the Milli Firka.

This second communist government fled one month after its establishment at the approach of General Denikin and his White forces. The rule of Denikin was the worst of those governments since 1917. Post-revolutionary reforms were reversed and the tsarist Mufti (the highest cleric) of Crimea, unseated by the Milli Firka in 1917, was restored to his former post. The Milli Firka was outlawed; in order to drive out the Whites, the Milli Firka allied with the Reds. The latter fought its way to power in Crimea in October 1920, despite the shipment of British weapons to the Whites through Istanbul --which was then under occupation of the British, French and the Italian forces.

The policies of the third communist government included seizure of large landed estates, many the results of Catherine II's land grants to Russian nobles. Despite peasant expectation that these lands would be distributed, they were instead made into state farms (sovkhozy). As noted by R. Pipes in his detailed account of the "Civil" War in Crimea, "many irregularities" were committed in the establishment of the sovkhozy and the "heaviest losers" were the Tatars.

After the recommendations of Kazan Tatar Mir Sultan Said Sultan Galiev, then deputy to Stalin, the Commissar of Nationalities (Commissariat for Nationality Affairs), the Crimean policy was changed. Tatars were accepted into the Communist Party and, in an effort to soothe ruffled feathers, an Autonomous Crimean Soviet Socialist Republic (Crimean ASSR) was established in November 1921. The new status of Crimea as an ASSR within the RSFSR (status which continued until 1954) had no practical significance. Despite a liberal sounding list of promises on paper, Crimean Tatars were not guaranteed political or cultural autonomy by the central government.

One Tatar Communist leader, Veli Ibrahimov was able, in his capacity as Chairman of the Central Committee and of the Council of Ministers in Crimea, to continue the work of the pre-revolutionary Tatar nationalist government. He made government appointments largely from the ranks of the Milli Firka. Under his leadership, until he was purged in 1929, Tatar-language schools and newspapers were reestablished. Tatar, with Russian, became the official language of Crimea.

After the 1929 purges of Ibrahimov and his followers for "national deviationism," the new policy of "Sovietization," (meaning de facto "Russification") was set in motion. Tatar leadership in education and the press was replaced by Russian and Ukrainian communist cadres. The Latin script was replaced by a contrived "specially created" Cyrillic and "new" grammars were written for Crimean Tatar introducing Russian words in place of Turkish. Most existing Tatar publications were labelled "nonproleterian" and "non-Soviet." In the 1930s, Tatar intellectuals were eliminated both by exile and by execution in large numbers. The clergy, too, was purged wholesale with many ulama being sent to Siberian and Central Asian exile. Virtually all religious schools and mosques were closed.

The Soviet regime thus continued the tsarist policies toward religion, only with the added zeal of Marxism. Religious personnel were branded social parasites. The "campaign of denigration," as Bennigsen has called it, was replaced around 1930 with a more direct approach. The League of Godless Zealots, which had been founded in 1925, was active in Crimea and other traditionally non-Russian areas only from the late 1920s. Membership in that league grew from 15,000 in 1930 to 30,000 in 1931 and 42,000 in 1932. Clerics, who formerly were "parasites," now became "counterrevolutionaries." The role of the Muslim Spiritual Boards (of which there were four in the USSR: Ufa for the "European" region; Tashkent for Central Asia and Kazakhistan; Mohachkala; and Baku --the latter two in the Caucasus) were streamlined. Crimea, as in tsarist times, was in the jurisdiction of Ufa.

During the Second World War, after the Soviets reoccupied Crimea from the withdrawing German forces, Stalin forcibly loaded the entire Crimean Tatar population of Crimea onto cattle-cars and deported them to Central Asia in May 1944. The alleged reasoning, once again, was their collaboration with invading forces. Karpat and Inalcik provide most of the details on the emigration and related aspects. Although the Crimean Tatars were later exonerated of the previous charges that they have "collaborated," no "permission" was forthcoming for their return to their homeland.

Since that time, a large group of Crimean Tatars are living in Ozbekistan. They are mostly concentrated around Tashkent, Samarkand and Shehrisebz. They are allowed to publish one weekly newspaper (until 1992 called Lenin Bayragi -- Lenin's Banner). Their struggle to return to their Crimean domains, with the Soviet security apparatus and psychiatric hospitals, are chronicled in Uncensored Russia, translated by Peter Reddaway.

Crimean Tatars are one of the earliest and better organized "nationalities" living in Russia. This fact was once again brought to the attention of the world through their unprecedented Red Square demonstrations of 1987, stressing the Crimean Tatar desire to return to Crimean homelands. They are presently maintaining observers at various localities around the world, including the "Council of Europe" in Strasbourg, to inform humanity of their plight.

(Completion date: 1988)
Sources:

* For the earliest known references to Tatars in written sources (8th c.), see T. Tekin, A Grammar of Orkhon Turkic. (Bloomington: Uralic and Altaic Series Vol. 69, 1968), containing the originals and translations. Kilisli Rifat produced the edition princeps of Kasgarli Mahmud, Kitab Diwan Lugat at Turk. (3 Vols.) (Istanbul, 1917-19), which places the Tatars in the vicinity of the Altai range during the 11th century. This work is also edited by B. Atalay, as Divanu Lugat-at-Turk (Ankara, 1939-1941), and translated into English by R. Dankoff with J. Kelly, Compendium of Turkic Dialects (3 Vols.) (Cambridge, MA., 1982-84).

* Z. V. Togan, in his Umumi Turk Tarihine Giris (Istanbul, 1981), 2nd edition, provides the insight into the composition of Tatars in Eurasia and the later confederations incorporating them.

* A. Aziz, Tatar Tarihi (Moscow, 1919) and G. Rahim & G. Aziz, Tatar Edebiyati Tarihi (Kazan, 1925) provide the later views of Tatars of themselves. See also H. B. Paksoy, "Chora Batir: A Tatar Admonition to Future Generations," Studies in Comparative Communism Vol. XIX, Nos. 3&4 Autumn/Winter 1986. The works by Togan, Aziz and Rahim are not yet available in Western languages. To avoid the usual pitfalls, these are panacea.

* For an analysis of the Turk groups resident in Eurasia prior to the arrival of Mongols and Tatars, reference should be made to: Togan's above referenced works; P. Golden, Khazar Studies (Budapest, 1980), Two Vols; idem, "Cumanica" Archivum Eurasiae Medii Aevi, IV, 1984; D. Sinor, Editor, The Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia (Cambridge, 1990); Uli Schamiloglu, "Tribal Politics and Social Organization" (PhD Dissertation, Columbia University, 1986); W. Barthold, Turkestan Down to the Mongol Invasion, 4th. Ed., (London, 1977); N. Golb & O. Pritsak, Khazarian Hebrew Documents (Ithaca, 1982).

* E. L. Keenan shows the high esteem, via imitation, the tatar literary enjoyed among Russian literati, long after the political position of the tatars eroded. See E. L. Keenan, "Muscovy and Kazan: Some Introductory Remarks on the Patterns of Steppe Diplomacy" Slavic Review Vol. XXVI, No. 4 (1967); idem "The Jarlyk of Axmed-Xan to Ivan III: A New Reading" International Journal of Slavic Linguistics and Poetics Vol. XII, (1967). Also O. Pritsak, "Moscow, the Golden Horde, and the Kazan Khanate from a Polycultural Point of View" Slavic Review Vol. XXVI, No. 4 (1967). R. Pipes, The Formation of the Soviet Union (Harvard, 1954) provides information about the Tatars during the Bolshevik revolution.

* Turco-Tatar Past, Soviet Present: Studies Presented to Alexandre Bennigsen (Louvain-Paris, 1986) is of importance. In addition to a list of Bennigsen's personal (and co- authored) contributions to the field, this volume (Edited by Ch. Lemercier-Quelquejay, G. Veinstein, S. E. Wimbush) contains papers directly addressing the issues at hand. Among them are: J. Martin, "The Tiumen Khanate's Encounters with Muscovy, 1481-1505;" H. Inalcik, "Power Relationships between Russia, the Crimea and the Ottoman Empire as reflected in Titulature;" K. H. Karpat, "The Crimean Emigration of 1856-1862 and the Settlement and Urban Development of Dobruca;" E. J. Lazzerini, "The Revival of Culture in pre-revolutionary Russia: or, why a Prosophography of the Tatar Ulema?" A. A. Rorlich, "The Temptation of the West: Two Tatar travellers' Encounter with Europe at the End of the Nineteenth Century."

* A short list of specialist and general works on the Tatars, their lineage and politics include A. W. Fisher, Crimean Tatars (Stanford, 1978); J. Pelenski, Russian and Kazan: Conquest and Imperial Ideology (Hague and Paris, 1974); A-A. Rorlich, The Volga Tatars: Profile in National Resilience (Stanford, 1986); T. Allsen, Mongol Imperialism (Berkeley, 1987); N. A Baskakov, Russkie Familii Tiurkskogo proiskhozhdeniia (Moscow, 1972); Peter Reddaway, Editor, Translator, Uncensored Russia (New York, 1972); Resat Cemilev, Musa Mamut: Human Torch, M. Serdar, (Ed.) (New York: Crimea Foundation, 1986); Tatars of the Crimea: Their Struggle for Survival, E. Allworth (Ed.), (Durham and London, 1988); Shest' Denei: Sudebnyi Protsess Il'i Gabaia i Mustafy Dzhemileva, M. Serdar (Ed.), (New York: Crimea Foundation, 1980).

*Published in: Modern Encyclopedia of Religions in Russia and Soviet Union
[MERRSU] (Academic International Press, 1995), Vol. VI. pp. 135-142.

quote:

Op zondag 10 augustus 2008 13:58 schreef ultra_ivo het volgende:

[..]

Oekraïne heeft een jaar of 15 geleden moeten toestaan dat Rusland nog erg lang een deel van de haven van Sebastopol voor zijn vloot mag huren. Dat is een doorn in het oog van de diverse Oekraïense regeringen.
Zeker omdat een deel van de Russische inwoners van de Krim niet eens Russisch maar Sovjet denken en zich nog altijd Sovjet-burger voelen. En dat zijn dan niet alleen de ouderen, ook jongeren denken nog vaker zo.