[pol WRR] Een ideologie kan zich wel / niet veranderen ?

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Op maandag 17 april 2006 08:28 schreef sigme het volgende:
Als je definitie van een ideologie is: een set bepaalde ideeën kan een ideologie niet wijzigen.

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Op maandag 17 april 2006 21:00 schreef Akkersloot het volgende:
Maar als de islam als ideologie kan veranderen dan zou er dus ook een "wetenschappelijk" rapport geschreven worden over veranderingen van het atheisme.

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Op maandag 17 april 2006 21:13 schreef Yildiz het volgende:
Ja, waar staat het rapport online, en heb je het zelf gelezen?

Ik ga niet een rapport oordelen naar aanleiding van wat uitspraken in een krantenartikel vóórdat het rapport ook maar gepubliceerd is, om eerlijk te zijn.

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Op maandag 17 april 2006 21:52 schreef Akkersloot het volgende:

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Wel fundamentalistisch om mensen het hebben van een ideologie aan te passen alleen maar omdat ze niet in God of kaboutertjes geloven.

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Op maandag 17 april 2006 21:54 schreef sigme het volgende:

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U zegt wát?

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TEL AVIV, Israel - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up outside a fast-food restaurant in a bustling area of Tel Aviv during the Passover holiday Monday, killing eight other people and wounding at least 49 in the deadliest Palestinian attack in more than a year.
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The Palestinians' new Hamas leaders called the attack a legitimate response to Israeli "aggression."
Israel said it held Hamas ultimately responsible — even though a different militant group, Islamic Jihad, claimed responsibility — and would respond "as necessary."

"We shall, of course, continue to use all means at our disposal to prevent every other attempt," Israeli Prime Minister-designate Ehud Olmert said.

Israeli defense chiefs were to consult later Monday, but security officials said a possible reoccupation of Gaza, the base of the new Hamas government, was not being considered.

The White House strongly condemned the attack, calling it "a despicable act of terror for which there is no excuse or justification."

A security guard posted outside the restaurant, the target of a suicide bombing in January, prevented Monday's bomber from entering the building, police said.

It was the first suicide attack in Israel since the Hamas militant group took over the Palestinian government 2 1/2 weeks ago. Hamas, which has killed hundreds of Israelis in attacks, has largely observed a cease-fire since February 2005.

Islamic Jihad, which is believed to be funded in part by
Iran and refuses to observe a cease-fire, claimed responsibility in a telephone call to The Associated Press. The group identified the bomber as Sami Salim Mohammed Hammed, from the
West Bank town of Jenin.

Islamic Jihad later released a video showing Hammed reading a statement saying the bombing was dedicated to the thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

"There are many other bombers on the way," he said.

Hammed, appearing to be in his teens, was dressed in black and wore a headband with yellow Quranic verses written on it.

Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for all six of the previous suicide attacks inside Israel since the cease-fire was declared. On Sunday, the group pledged to carry out more attacks.

The response by Hamas leaders represented a sharp departure from the previous Palestinian leadership's immediate condemnations of such attacks.

"We think that this operation ... is a direct result of the policy of the occupation and the brutal aggression and siege committed against our people," said Khaled Abu Helal, spokesman for the Hamas-led Interior Ministry.

Earlier, Moussa abu Marzouk, a Hamas leader abroad, told Al-Jazeera television that "the Israeli side must feel what the Palestinian feels, and the Palestinian defends himself as much as he can."

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, of the rival
Fatah Party, condemned the bombing, calling it a "terrorist attack."

The bomber struck at about 1:40 p.m. at "The Mayor's Falafel" restaurant, which was targeted in a Jan. 19 attack that wounded 20 people. The restaurant is in the bustling Neve Shaanan neighborhood near Tel Aviv's central bus station, which was crowded with holiday travelers.

Police said the restaurant hired a security guard after the earlier bombing, and that guard apparently was injured in Monday's blast.

A witness, Moussa al Zidat, said the guard asked the apparent bomber to open his bag.

"I saw a young man starting to open his bag. The guard begins opening the bag, and then I heard a boom."

Witness Israel Yaakov said the blast killed a woman standing near her husband and children.

"The father was traumatized. He went into shock. He ran to the children to gather them up and the children were screaming, 'Mom! Mom!' and she wasn't answering, she was dead already ... it's a shocking scene," Yaakov said.

Another witness, 62-year-old Sonya Levy, said she had just finished shopping when the blast occurred.

"I was about to get into my car, and boom! There was an explosion. A bit of human flesh landed on my car and I started to scream," she said.

Her car was 50 yards from the explosion and its windshield was smeared with blood.

Olmert said the blast came as no surprise.

"It's not something that we didn't fear would happen, we know the terrorist organizations groups continue at every moment to look for opportunities to carry out attacks inside Israel," he said. "The security forces are deployed in every corner, every place, but we also know that there is no way we can always prevent such attacks, under all circumstances, in every case."

Police said nine people, including the bomber, were killed. Medics said nine of the injured were in serious condition.

The wounded were treated on sidewalks. One man was lying on his side, his shirt pushed up and his back covered by bandages. A bleeding woman was wheeled away on a stretcher. A dazed-looking man walked near the site, his white T-shirt splattered with blood.

The blast shattered the windshields of cars, and blew out the windows of nearby buildings. The ground was covered with glass shards and blood. The sign of the restaurant's building was blown away. Bottles and other debris were scattered up to 25 yards from the site of the blast.

While rescue crews tended to the wounded, a helicopter hovered overhead and a marksman took position on the roof of the targeted building.

Later, Israeli police stopped a car carrying three Palestinians suspected of aiding the bomber, officials said. The car, identified by witnesses at the scene of the attack, was stopped at a checkpoint on a highway between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, police said.

Authorities suspected the vehicle was "directly connected" to the attack, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. The car's three occupants were detained for questioning, and a bomb squad was examining the vehicle.

Monday's bombing was the deadliest since Aug. 31, 2004, when suicide bombers on two buses in Beersheba killed 16 Israelis.

It was the second major Passover bombing in four years. In 2002, a Palestinian bomber blew himself up at a hotel in the coastal town of Netanya, killing 29 people. That attack triggered a major Israeli military offensive.

Palestinian militants have carried out nine suicide attacks in Israel and the West Bank since a Feb. 8, 2005, truce declaration. All but one attack have been carried out by Islamic Jihad.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Gideon Meir said Israel held Hamas ultimately responsible for such attacks because it is "giving support to all the other terrorist organizations."

"From our point of view it doesn't matter if it comes from Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad or Hamas. They all come out of the same school of terrorism led by Hamas," he said.

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Op maandag 17 april 2006 22:52 schreef Finder_elf_towns het volgende:
Palestinians: Tel Aviv Bombing Legitimate
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/a(...)NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Hoe kan dit? De uiterst deskundige en professionele analisten zeiden toch dat Hamas zich toch zou matigen als ze plaats zouden nemen in een regering? Hoe kan dit? Islam is toch de religie van vrede volgens het WRR? Deze mensen, die niet-westers zijn en toch de vernietiging van een volk willen, dat kan toch helemaal niet? Hitler was toch een westerling? Hoe kunnen niet-westerlingen dan oproepen tot haat en vernietiging? Dat kunnen toch alleen blanke Europeanen?

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Op dinsdag 18 april 2006 21:58 schreef Akkersloot het volgende:

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Als mensen democratie misbruiken om dictatoriale regimes te vestigen ben jij tegen democratie ?

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Op dinsdag 18 april 2006 22:00 schreef Akkersloot het volgende:

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Hamas heeft de aanslag keihard goedgekeurd. En dat is in strijd met verwachtingen geuit in het "wetenschappelijke" WRR raport.

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Op dinsdag 18 april 2006 22:54 schreef Finder_elf_towns het volgende:
Hamas is nooit niet-extremistisch geweest. Elke "dialoog" zou bij voorbaat al zinloos zijn geweest. Ik zie daarom niet in waarom die studeerkamergeleerden van het WRR doen alsof dat redelijke mensen zijn. Misschien zijn het letterlijk studeerkamergeleerden. Anders zou ik niet weten hoe je aan zo'n belabberde conclusie zou kunnen komen. Of ze moesten van hun lokale volkscommissaris iets produceren wat op de inherente slechtheid van het westen moet duiden en de inherente goedheid van de islam, geprojecteerd op Hamas.

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Op dinsdag 18 april 2006 23:09 schreef Floripas het volgende:

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Je hebt niet eens de moeite gedaan om het rapport te lezen.

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Op dinsdag 18 april 2006 23:27 schreef Ponskaart het volgende:

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Snellezen werkt zeer goed, kop, 1e alinea, laatste alinea en een paar zinnen tussenin. Waardeloos rapport, je moet er niet aan denken dat een samenleving op rapporten wordt gebouwd, omdat een stoffige naieve wetenschapper dat uit feiten denkt op te kunnen maken. Ik zie wat er op straat gebeurt en dat zuigt behoorlijk.

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Op dinsdag 18 april 2006 23:33 schreef Floripas het volgende:

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Je zou de moeite wel even kunnen doen. Doe als ik: kopje thee erbij, opkrullen op bed, lezen maar.

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Muslims are Varelse

The term Varelse comes from a series of books by Orson Scott Card. It is mentioned in "Ender's Game" and expanded upon greatly in "Speaker For the Dead". According to some stuff I've read it, and the other terms described below have Norse roots, though I do not believe they align completely (for obvious reasons) with any actual word. The reason I wanted to post this here is that I think the terminology that Mr. Card has come up with is descriptive and useful.

I believe that words mean things. Sometimes the English language lacks the words to describe something that is important enough that it really should be decribed. Unlike some other cultures, we speakers of english aren't so pround that we won't borrow a phrase, or word from another language that we find to be more useful or descriptive than what we currently have in use. We'll even make up new words to describe new things or concepts that we'd previously not been exposed to. This is one of the great strengths of our native tounge. As a professional computer nerd, I see this happen all the time. Sometimes it is for the good, sometimes not. Obviously, in this case, I think the terms put forth by Mr. Card are useful, which has led me to expand upon my usage of them on Free Republic here.

In the book, Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card put forward a series of classifications for what is in the book, alien races, but is adaptable to our single planet as well.

There are four different classifications of "people". You'll need to remember that with each of these terms, they are mutual. If group A and B are Framling to each other, the A considers B to be Framling, and B considers A to be Framling.

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Utlanning- A human we recognize as part of our same world and species, yet from another town or country.
Americans are generally Utlanning to each other. We relate and share more or less the same basic culture. The British would probably also be Utlanning.
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Framling- A human we recognize as part of our same species, yet from another world or planet.
Most of Europe and possibly central america is more or less Framling as far as Americans are concerned. Communication and peace between Framling is possible.
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Ramen- When a lifeform is considered human, but is of another species. Being able to think and behave at a human level and act civilized.
We would generally consider far eastern nations as being Ramen. Dissimilarity of history and culture between, say Japan and the United States is great. Nonetheless, peace and communication is possible because we are each Ramen to each other.
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Varelse- A creature with whom communication is impossible. If such a creature is belligerent, then it is the only time when war is truly unavoidable and necessary.
This system is largely non-judgemental in that if group A and group B are Varelse, there can be no meaningful communications between each other. If they are not hostile, they can live in peace even though they cannot communicate. If one of them is hostile, then war is inevitable. Any war waged must be total war. You cannot stop until the other side has been completely anihilated, because they can't be reasoned with. They will keep coming because they see no value in you, your beliefs, your culture, or even you as a living being.

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Op dinsdag 18 april 2006 22:12 schreef Floripas het volgende:

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Heb je het rapport gelezen? Er staat ook dat het niet erkennen van de dialoog met Hamas tot extremisme zal leiden. Hamas werd niet geaccepteerd, en, tádá!

Ik ben het niet eens met alle conclusies, maar dat ze het bij het verkeerde eind hadden wat betreft de radicalisering van Hamas, dat is een onjuiste conclusie. Het verloopt juist precies zoals voorspeld.

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Op dinsdag 18 april 2006 23:09 schreef Floripas het volgende:

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Je hebt niet eens de moeite gedaan om het rapport te lezen.