Donner: religie hoort thuis op iedere school

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 18:14 schreef DionysuZ het volgende:

[..]

Ik ben benieuwd wat hij hier nou exact mee bedoeld. Ik ben ervoor dat verschillende godsdiensten worden behandeld op school, bijvoorbeeld onder een vak als maatschappijleer. Ik ben echter tegen invloed van welke religie dan ook op het lesprogramma van de school, geloven doe je maar thuis, kinderen zijn tezeer vormbaar hiervoor.

En how about de scheiding tussen kerk en staat?

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 18:14 schreef DionysuZ het volgende:
En how about de scheiding tussen kerk en staat?

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 19:30 schreef DionysuZ het volgende:
Als dat de bedoeling is ben ik het er mee eens. Maar dan wel onder een vak als bijvoorbeeld maatschappijleer en niet, zoals roobje al opmerkte over het wel/niet bestaan van god en consorten.

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 19:08 schreef roobje het volgende:
Ik vind het wel okee als religie wordt onderwezen als een soort van geschiedenis; feiten leren dus en misschien een beetje filosoferen. Maar ze moeten niet tegen die kinderen gaan zeggen dat de bijbel/koran 'de waarheid' is. Het beste is om het bestaan van een god/jezus/etc. in het midden te laten anders gaat het snel richting indoctrinatie.

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 19:30 schreef DionysuZ het volgende:

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Als dat de bedoeling is ben ik het er mee eens. Maar dan wel onder een vak als bijvoorbeeld maatschappijleer en niet, zoals roobje al opmerkte over het wel/niet bestaan van god en consorten.

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 19:33 schreef HenriOsewoudt het volgende:

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Geloof het of niet DionysuZ maar dan zijn we het helemaal met elkaar eens !!!

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(Al horen scholen natuurlijk eigenlijk gewoon geprivatiseerd te worden en hoort niemand zich te bemoeien met wat je er dan op wil onderwijzen....of verpest ik het nou weer? )

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 20:47 schreef lionsguy18 het volgende:
Gewoon christelijk onderwijs.
Er is geen plaats voor exoten.
We wonen tenslotte niet in tenten.

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 20:47 schreef lionsguy18 het volgende:
Gewoon christelijk onderwijs.
Er is geen plaats voor exoten.
We wonen tenslotte niet in tenten.

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 18:14 schreef DionysuZ het volgende:
Ik ben echter tegen invloed van welke religie dan ook op het lesprogramma van de school, geloven doe je maar thuis, kinderen zijn tezeer vormbaar hiervoor.

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En how about de scheiding tussen kerk en staat?

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 20:51 schreef DionysuZ het volgende:
Niet mee eens, geloven doe je maar thuis in de privésfeer.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 10:02 schreef LodewijkNapoleon het volgende:

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Dat kan natuurlijk niet, je levensbeschouwing draag je altijd bij je.

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Donner: Geloof hoort op elke school te worden onderwezen

De 'beste politicus van het jaar', CDA-minister Piet Hein Donner, vindt dat godsdienstonderwijs eigenlijk op alle scholen moet worden gegeven. Dit bevordert volgens hem de integratie omdat door zulk onderwijs kinderen kunnen leren om te gaan met geloofsverscheidenheid. Donner zei dit afgelopen zaterdag op een bijeenkomst van zijn partij in Amsterdam.

Volgens de CDA'er voelen veel Nederlanders zich bedreigd door de opkomst van de islam. ''Daarom moet er een nieuw antwoord worden gevonden op de vraag naar de rol van religie in de samenleving. Ik ben ongelukkig met het 'moderne denken' dat godsdienst tot een privé-zaak wil verklaren. Dit is struisvogelgedrag dat de publieke rol van religie ontkent'', aldus Donner.

De minister benadrukte dat religie en geloof juist een belangrijke rol spelen in de samenleving. Ook moeten Nederlanders accepteren dat de islam hier blijvend een van de grootste godsdiensten is. Deze acceptatie is volgens hem noodzakelijk voor een goede integratie.

Een woordvoerster van het ministerie van Justitie benadrukt desgevraagd dat Donner op persoonlijke titel sprak en niet namens de regering.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 12:32 schreef DionysuZ het volgende:

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dat is inderdaad heel interessante stof

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 12:35 schreef Godslasteraar het volgende:

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Ik geloof alleen dat Donner dat niet bedoeld

_{wat heb ik toch een hekel aan die ''kerel''}

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 12:32 schreef Godslasteraar het volgende:
Maria en Jezus als een vrijwel exacte kopie van de Isis en Horus verering in Egypte, dat soort dingen. Lijkt me heel nuttig.

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Comparing Osiris, Horus, and Jesus
James Patrick Holding

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Of all the pagan copycat candidates, this is the last couple -- other than Buddha -- that look to be a major threat. Egypt after all is not far from Palestine, and Jews did live in Egypt; it is not theoretically improbable that they could steal an idea for a Jesus from this place. But did they? The field is rife with claims, but as usual a plate of fudge stands in the middle. There is a great deal of filching of Christian terms to describe Egyptian events (not all of it with bad intentions) and a great deal of non-citation of sources for fabulous claims. This being the case, we here announce again that this will be our last pagan copycat item for a while until someone in the Acharya S/Freke and Gandy camp steps forward and provides some better documentation that 18th-19th century rumormongers.

So let's get to some of these claims. I'm going to mix the ones for Horus and Osiris together for convenience. These are from Achy's Christ Conspiracy [114-116]; oddly enough Freke and Gandy add nothing new and in fact only supplement a few of these.

Osiris
Had well over 200 divine names, including Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods, Resurrection and the Life, Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who "made men and women to be born again."
Coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris' star in the east, Sirius, significator of his birth
Was a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the 'plant of Truth'.
The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the 'green pastures' and 'still waters' of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul and body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death...
The Lord's Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, 'O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven. Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer.
The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word.
As the god of the vine, a great traveling teacher who civilized the world. Ruler and judge of the dead.
In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and "the 72."
Osiris' resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal.
Horus
Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
He was of royal descent.
At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
He ad 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns").
He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead.
Horus walked on water.
His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child."
He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected.
Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth.
Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
He came to fulfill the Law.
Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
Was supposed to reign one thousand years.
That's quite a list, but let's make it simple to start: A good number -- at least half -- are so far as I have seen bogus. There has not been a shred of evidence for many of these in any book of Egyptian religion I have thus far consulted. So as Clara Peller used to say, Where's the beef? Where's the original Egyptian lit that backs this up? Christ-Mythers: we do not want to hear from Gerald Massey or Godfrey Higgins; we want the original citation from Egyptian records. If I don't hear from any of you within a year (and I know that they check in on this site, because I hear from them), I'll assume no response is possible and go back to more copycat projects. In some cases below we will draw upon Glenn Miller's copycat article where he has done some previous work.

For convenience I begin by reproducing the "thumbnail sketch of Horus' life" given in Encyclopedia of Religions as offered by Miller, which also lays the groundwork for Osiris:

"In ancient Egypt there were originally several gods known by the name Horus, but the best known and most important from the beginning of the historic period was the son of Osiris and Isis who was identified with the king of Egypt. According to myth, Osiris, who assumed the rulership of the earth shortly after its creation, was slain by his jealous brother, Seth. The sister- wife of Osiris, Isis, who collected the pieces of her dismembered husband and revived him, also conceived his son and avenger, Horus. Horus fought with Seth, and, despite the loss of one eye in the contest, was successful in avenging the death of his father and in becoming his legitimate successor. Osiris then became king of the dead and Horus king of the living, this transfer being renewed at every change of earthly rule. The myth of divine kingship probably elevated the position of the god as much as it did that of the king. In the fourth dynasty, the king, the living god, may have been one of the greatest gods as well, but by the fifth dynasty the supremacy of the cult of Re, the sun god, was accepted even by the kings. The Horus-king was now also "son of Re." This was made possible mythologically by personifying the entire older genealogy of Horus (the Heliopolitan ennead) as the goddess Hathor, "house of Horus," who was also the spouse of Re and mother of Horus.
"Horus was usually represented as a falcon, and one view of him was as a great sky god whose outstretched wings filled the heavens; his sound eye was the sun and his injured eye the moon. Another portrayal of him particularly popular in the Late Period, was as a human child suckling at the breast of his mother, Isis. The two principal cult centers for the worship of Horus were at Bekhdet in the north, where very little survives, and at Idfu in the south, which has a very large and well- preserved temple dating from the Ptolemaic period. The earlier myths involving Horus, as well as the ritual per- formed there, are recorded at Idfu."
Osiris

Had well over 200 divine names, including Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods, Resurrection and the Life, Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who "made men and women to be born again." The titles I have found ascribed to Osiris are [Fraz.AAO] Lord of All, the Good Being (the most common title), Lord of the Underworld, Lord/King of Eternity, Ruler of the Dead, [Griff.OO] Lord of the West, Great One, [Bud.ERR, 26] "he who takes seat," the Begetter, the Ram, [Bud.ERR, 79] "great Word" (as in, "the word of what cometh into being and what is not" -- a reflection of the ancient idea of the creative power of speech, found likewise in the Greek Logos), "Chief of the Spirits"; [Short.EG, 37] ruler of everlastingness, [Meek.DL, 31] "living god," "God above the gods." All of these are either general titles we would expect to be assigned to any head honcho deity, or else are related to O's command over the underworld. None of the ones cited closest and uniquely like unto Jesus were found.
Coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris' star in the east, Sirius, significator of his birth. Freke and Gandy repeat only the last part about the star. But while some scholars connect Osiris with Orion, they do not know anything about wise men or a star in the east.
Was a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the 'plant of Truth'. Not that anyone in the scholarly lit has reported.
The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the 'green pastures' and 'still waters' of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul and body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death... If this is so, no commentator in Egyptian religion or the OT knows about it. Osiris would possibly be known as a shepherd as such imagery was common in the ANE, but I have not seen it yet applied to him by anyone but mythicists.
The Lord's Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, 'O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven.' Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer. If so, we want to know where this prayer is recorded, and so would experts in Egyptian religion. The Hebrew "Amen" is never used as a salutation and means "let it be so" which means it is not "invoked" as a deity is. Beyond that, let's see an etymological connection based on the original languages, not on the correspondence of English characters.
The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word. If so, someone other than Achy's source, James Churchward, needs to put them side by side and prove it. The Egyptian religious scholars don't seem aware of it.
As the god of the vine, a great traveling teacher who civilized the world. Ruler and judge of the dead. This is a bit non-specific. Frazer reported [Fraz.AAO, vii, 7] that Osiris taught winemaking and agriculture, gave the Egyptians laws, taught them proper worship, and traveled the word teaching these things. But this is the claim that was made of Dionysus as well, and we have answered that point within that essay. Not that it matters, since it seems only Frazer and later Freke and Gandy have an idea that the two are connected. Literature written by scholars of Egyptian religion do not treat them as the same, though some connect Osiris and Orion, and Budge notes the travels but does not connect Osiris and Dionysius [Bud.ERR, 9]. In any event Osiris is nowhere called a "god of the vine". He is ruler and judge of the dead, but this doesn't describe Jesus, who represents a God who is not God of the dead, "but of the living." At most it represents what might be expected of any supreme deity: to rule and to judge.
In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and "the 72." This is a combination of terminological fudging, half-truth, and irrelevancy. There was no "passion" -- in the incident alluded to, O. was indeed plotted against by Set. There was a big party, at which Set had a coffin brought in and encouraged everyone, including 72 participants in the scheme and one queen of Ethiopia, to lay down for a fit. Finally it came O's turn, and he was persuaded to lay down in the coffin. Once O was inside, Set nailed the coffin shut and threw it in the river; O suffocated. Note that the 72 here are enemies of O, not his disciples: only the number -- a multiple of 12, a number we still hold in regard today when we purchase eggs and donuts -- is a common touchpoint (and that only in some mss. of Luke 10; others put the number at 70, possibly representing the number of Gentile nations, according to the Jews). They do nothing at all that could be considered like what Jesus' disciples did. As the story goes further, O's wife Isis went looking for the coffin. She found it in Syria, where it had been incorporated into the pillar of a house. She lamented so loudly that some kids in the house died of fright. Later she took it out, opened it up, then went looking for Horus. Meanwhile Set found the coffin and tore the body in 14 pieces which he threw all over the place. In one result Isis went looking for the pieces and buried them as she found them. An alternate story has Isis, Anubis, and Ra piecing the body together, swathing it with bandages, and reviving him -- more on this below.

Osiris' resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal. This is where we find some of the biggest misuse of terminology, including by some Egyptian scholars of religion (who do not go on to posit a "copycat" relationship!). Osiris resurrected? Not if "resurrection" is defined as coming back in a glorified body. On this point Miller has done some substantial work, reporting the words of J. Z. Smith, so I will let these speak to begin:

"Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have 'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern (as described by Frazer et.al.); most certainly it was never considered as an annual event."
"In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods (as described by Frazer et.al.)."
"The repeated formula 'Rise up, you have not died,' whether applied to Osiris or a citizen of Egypt, signaled a new, permanent life in the realm of the dead."
Frankfort concurs:
"Osiris, in fact, was not a 'dying' god at all but a 'dead' god. He never returned among the living; he was not liberated from the world of the dead, as Tammuz was. On the contrary, Osiris altogether belonged to the world of the dead; it was from there that he bestowed his blessings upon Egypt. He was always depicted as a mummy, a dead king." [Kingship and the gods: a study of ancient Near Eastern religion as the integration of society & nature. UChicago:1978 edition, p.289]
Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ...As Yamauchi observes, "Ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death." But it is a mistake to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him. His body did not rise from the dead; rather elements of his personality-his Ba and Ka-continued to hover over his body. ["The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: Myth, Hoax, or History?" David J. MacLeod, in The Emmaus Journal, V7 #2, Winter 98, p169
Frazer [Fraz.AAO, viii] wrote that every dead man was given Osiris' name on top of his own in order to identify with the god.

So O's "resurrection" is no resurrection at all -- and in fact was actually a sort of function of the way the Egyptian gods were, shall we say, being half Frankenstein, half Lego set. There are in fact many stories of the Egyptian gods flinging various body parts around, and to no overall harm, because "divine bodies were thought to be impervious to change" [Meek.DL, 57] and so O's dead body neither rotted nor decomposed as it waited to be put back together. This is how it was with all these Egyptian gods: Seth and Horus have a fight in which they throw dung at each other then steal each others' genitals [Bud.ERR, 64]. Horus' eye is stolen by Set, but Horus gets it back and gives it to Osiris, who eats it [ibid., 88]. Horus had a headache, and another deity offers to loan him his head until the headache went away [Meek.DL, 57]. Osiris did pay a price for his dismembering death, in that he was limited to the world of the dead [and manifestly ignorant as a result of what went on "above ground" -- Meek.DL, 88-9], but that is only because he had actually died once before when his father accidentally killed him [ibid., 80].

Horus

Now we get to the matters of Horus. Many of these have had some input from Miller, so we'll report those and add as needed.

Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. The lit has confirmed what Miller offers, and I have also seen the depiction he refers to below. I have found no reference to a cave/manger -- Frazer [Fraz.AAO, 8] has Horus born in the swamps, and knows nothing about a star or Wise Men, of any number.

...Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus"). And the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all.
Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan 'miracle births', as noted by the scholars earlier:
"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine] [BTW, the Hebrew word 'satan' is not a 'cognate' of the name 'seth' by any means: "The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible" DDD, s.v. 1369f]
The one reference I have found to a birth of Horus has him born on the 31st day of the Egyptian month of Khoiak -- the mythers have a one in 365 chance that this matches Dec. 25th! Achy adds, with Massey as a likely source, the claim that on the walls of the Luxor Temple is a scene showing the "Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kenph, the 'Holy Ghost,' impregnating the virgin," complete with three wise men. For some reason neither Achy nor Massey provide a name or number for this carving, or a location any more specific than the Luxor Temple, which is a rather huge place that is inaccessible to most of Achy's readers. When pressed by an inquirer at her site, Achy plays word games -- "Isis is the constellation of Virgo the Virgin, as well as the Moon, which becomes a 'virgin' during when it is new. The sun god - in this case, Horus - is born of this Virgin goddess." -- and alludes to a document from the 6th century AD! No substantiation is offered for the Isis-Virgo connection at all; it has no more authority than saying "Isis is Gomer the prostitute." If such a carving exists it is only what Achy thinks it is via the interpretation of Massey. (A writer recently sent this description from an Egyptian tour site: "Kingship was believed to be ordained by the gods at the beginning of time in accordance with ma'at., the well-ordered state, truth, justice, cosmic order. The reigning king was also the physical son of the Creator sun-god. This divine conception and birth was recorded on the walls of Luxor Temple, at Deir el-Bahri, and other royal cult temples throughout Egypt. The king was also an incarnation of the dynastic god Horus, and when deceased, the king was identified with the father of Horus, Osiris. This living king was thus a unique entity, the living incarnation of deity, divinely chosen intermediary, who could act as priest for the entire nation, reciting the prayers, dedicating the sacrifices...A peristyle forecourt of Amenhotep III is fused with the hypostyle hall, which is the first room in the inner, originally roofed, part of the temple. This leads to a series of for antechambers with subsidiary rooms. The Birth Room east of the second antechamber is decorated with reliefs showing the symbolic divine birth of Amenhotep III resulting from the union of his mother Mutemwiya and the god Amun. The bark sanctuary includes a free-standing building added by Alexander the Great within the larger chamber created by Amenhotep III. Well-preserved reliefs show Amun's portable bark shrine and other scenes of the king in the presence of the gods. The sanctuary of Amenhotep III is the last room on the central axis of the temple." This is significantly devoid of a virgin conception or birth, wise men, or a Holy Ghost. You might squeeze an adoration out of it, but who does not adore newborns anyway? But now see the trump card, provided by a Skeptic ashamed of Achy's thesis; see here.)

His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Actually Seb was the earth-god, not "earthly," but rather the earth itself (as Nut was the sky), and he was O's dad, not Horus', though one of my helpful researchers tells me there is one version in which Horus was the son of Seb. And don't fall for the etymological trick or treat: You can't get from "Seb" to "Joseph" just by putting the names next to each other.
He was of royal descent. Obviously true, and Horus was often identified with the living Pharaoh, but so commonplace as to be meaningless.
At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns"). Egyptian religion scholars know of none of this. On this last Miller notes:
...my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR "disciples"--variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU ("Followers of Horus") [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers (GOE:1.196). And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu ("blacksmiths") who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [GOE:1.475f; although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere... Horus is NOT the sun-god (that's Re), so we cannot use the 'all solar gods have twelve disciples--in the Zodiac' routine here.]
He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead. Miller notes:
Miracle stories abound, even among religious groups that could not possibly have influenced one another, such as Latin American groups (e.g. Aztecs) and Roman MR's, so this 'similarity' carries no force. The reference to this specific resurrection I cannot find ANYWHERE in the scholarly literature. I have looked under all forms of the name to no avail. The fact that something so striking is not even mentioned in modern works of Egyptology indicates its questionable status. It simply cannot be adduced as data without SOME real substantiation. The closest thing to it I can find is in Horus' official funerary role, in which he "introduces" the newly dead to Osirus and his underworld kingdom. In the Book of the Dead, for example, Horus introduces the newly departed Ani to Osirus, and asks Osirus to accept and care for Ani (GOE:1.490).
Horus walked on water. Not that I have found, but he was thrown in the water (see below).
His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child." Miller says:
This fact has likewise escaped me and my research. I have looked at probably 50 epithets of the various Horus deities, and most major indices of the standard Egyptology reference works and come up virtually empty-handed. I can find a city named "Iusaas" [GOE:1.85], a pre-Islamic Arab deity by the name of "Iusaas", thought by some to be the same as the Egyptian god Tehuti/Thoth [GOE:2.289], and a female counterpart to Tem, named "Iusaaset" [GOE:1.354]. But no reference to Horus as being "Iusa"... ]
He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected. None of these three can be found, either. On the last Miller writes:
I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...
I found in Budge one idea that Horus had died and been cast in pieces in the water, and his parts were fished out by Sebek the crocodile god at Isis' request. But that's a funny sort of baptism at best (see above). Another source notes a story where Horus is bitten by a snake and revived, which is still not much of a parallel.

Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth. I found thesed titles: [Bud.ERR, 78] Great God, Chief of the Powers, Master of Heaven, Avenger of His Father (since he beat up Set, who "killed" Osiris). He may have been called rightly "Son of Man" as the son of royalty (see here) but I have found no evidence for this.
Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
He came to fulfill the Law.
Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
Was supposed to reign one thousand years. I have found no evidence for any of these last four.
Conclusion: This one seems to be full of ringers so far, and it's high time the mythicists backed these up with more than third-hand sabre-rattling from the Barbara Walkers and the Gerald Masseys. So I challenge them now to come up with the gods -- er, goods. Any takers?

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 12:02 schreef DionysuZ het volgende:
Tuurlijk draag je die mee. Maar dat wil nog niet zeggen dat je het dan ook op school onderwezen als feit moet krijgen.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 12:47 schreef LodewijkNapoleon het volgende:

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Ook dat is een geloof en mag van mijn part als zodanig onderwezen worden indien gewenst.
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bron:http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 12:39 schreef OldJeller het volgende:

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Jou verbannen naar een klooster voor het leven zou de samenleving goed doen.
Het geeft overigens niks als iemand atheïst is.
Maar wat jij doet is ronduit treurig. [afbeelding]

Ja, dat zal de kinderen goed doen! Weten ze ook waar de C in CDA e.d. voor staat.

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Op maandag 19 december 2005 23:07 schreef TC03 het volgende:


Het moet zijn: religie hoort thuis op geen enkele school.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 18:19 schreef lionsguy18 het volgende:

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Religie is de kurk van de beschaving dus hoort een prominente plaats in te nemen in alle scholen.
Waar moeten kinderen anders hun normen en waarden vandaan halen.
Van ouders die TV kijken omdat ze GTST niet willen missen?

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 19:30 schreef lionsguy18 het volgende:
Niet alles op het individu betrekken omdat het in een persoonlijk geval toevallig goed gegaan is, maar de grote lijn in de gaten houden.
Nu lopen ze met messen en andere wapens rond dus kennelijk is een christelijke grondslag niet meer van thuis meegekregen en moeten de scholen deze belangrijke taak op zich nemen wegens begrek aan opvoeding door ouders.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 16:06 schreef Godslasteraar het volgende:
Maar goed, Donner zal natuurlijk over niet al te lange tijd van het toneel verdwijnen.
Het is typisch een man van het verleden, die door een politiek bedrijfsongeval, de moord op Fortuyn, aan het bewind is gekomen, samen met zijn koorknaapje. En het grappige is, ze weten het zelf, ze zijn niet voor niets zo extreem benauwd voor een kabinetscrisis. Onder normale omstandigheden, met wat meer fatsoenljke mensen zou dit kabinet al lang gevallen zijn. Zeker na die knetterende nederlaag, die historische afgang na het grandioos verloren EU-grondwet referendum. En ze blijven gewoon zitten. Wat dat betreft moeten we oppassen bij de volgende verkiezingen dat ze de boel niet flessen, ze zijn ertoe in staat.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 19:30 schreef lionsguy18 het volgende:
Niet alles op het individu betrekken omdat het in een persoonlijk geval toevallig goed gegaan is, maar de grote lijn in de gaten houden.
Nu lopen ze met messen en andere wapens rond dus kennelijk is een christelijke grondslag niet meer van thuis meegekregen en moeten de scholen deze belangrijke taak op zich nemen wegens begrek aan opvoeding door ouders.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 19:35 schreef One_of_the_few het volgende:

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Ik vindt dat zo dogma onder veel christelijken, dat je voor normen en waarden afhankelijk bent van de bijbel of iets christelijks. Het is eigenlijk een belediging voor niet gelovigen.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 15:46 schreef Godslasteraar het volgende:
Oh man ,wat een cryptisch verhaal

Maar het gaat niet om het introduceren van een nieuw geloof, het gaat om feiten, om geschiedenis,en geschiedenis moet aan bepaalde standaarden voldoen.
En zo zal godsdienst-onderwijs aan dezelfde standaarden moeten voldoen waaraan ook vakken als wiskunde en biologie moeten voldoen. Een deugdelijke onderbouwing.

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Het bestuderen van allerlei sprookjes en mythes doe mensen maar thuis, daar zijn scholen niet voor.

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De taak van een fatsoenlijke school zou zijn, een religie tegen het licht houden van kritisch onderzoek, op een logische en wetenschappelijke manier. Dáár zou Nederland mee gebaat zijn, Gewoon bij elke religieuze stellingname eens vragen, ''is dat wel zo?'' en ''is dit redelijk?'', ''is dit fatsoenlijk?''.

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Maar zoals ik al zei, dat is vermoedelijk niet wat Donner wil. Donner wil dat mensen weer godsvrezend worden, en nederig respect betuigen. Tis een vies mannetje

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 19:35 schreef One_of_the_few het volgende:
Je voorbeeld met messen en dergelijke is net zo inwisselbaar voor zogenaamde christelijke jongeren. Waarom kunnen mensen die niet christelijk zijn alleen maar aan zichzelf denken dan? Die kunne toch net zo goed de grote lijnen in de gaten houden.
Ik vindt dat zo dogma onder veel christelijken, dat je voor normen en waarden afhankelijk bent van de bijbel of iets christelijks. Het is eigenlijk een belediging voor niet gelovigen.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 20:36 schreef lionsguy18 het volgende:

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Als je je ogen sluit voor deze kille verharde samenleving waar men niet meer in God gelooft dan moet je ook zo eerlijk zijn te erkennen dat het ontbreken van normen de oorzaak hiervoor is.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 20:13 schreef WAT het volgende:

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Christenen kunnen ook moorden hoor.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 21:06 schreef LodewijkNapoleon het volgende:

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Het is niet aan mij om te oordelen over wie goed is of fout, Christenen zijn ook gewoon mensen, maar als ze échte Christenen zijn dan laten ze zich wel aanspreken op christelijke principes, vaak werkt dat erg goed.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 20:36 schreef lionsguy18 het volgende:

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Binnen de opvoeding moet je het verschil leren tussen goed en kwaad.
Dat is het beste gewaarborgd binnen de joods-christelijke cultuur.
Niet gelovigen zijn niet te beledigen want die leven er toch op los, zie topics over 14 jarige dronken meisjes, moorden bij disco's , geweld e.d.
Als je je ogen sluit voor deze kille verharde samenleving waar men niet meer in God gelooft dan moet je ook zo eerlijk zijn te erkennen dat het ontbreken van normen de oorzaak hiervoor is.
Er wordt tegenwoordig van hoog tot laag gefraudeerd.
Dus begin bij de opvoeding en geef godsdienst een prominente plaats binnen het lessenpakket.

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Op dinsdag 20 december 2005 21:06 schreef LodewijkNapoleon het volgende:

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Het is niet aan mij om te oordelen over wie goed is of fout, Christenen zijn ook gewoon mensen, maar als ze échte Christenen zijn dan laten ze zich wel aanspreken op christelijke principes, vaak werkt dat erg goed.