Protesten in Hong Kong zwellen aan #2 - Wat gaat China doen?

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Op maandag 19 augustus 2019 13:14 schreef Slayage het volgende:

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dat china heel angstig is voor "chaos" is evident, maar heb je niet het idee dat de chinezen doorschieten hierin? neem de uyguren als meest voor de hand liggende voorbeeld.

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Op maandag 19 augustus 2019 20:04 schreef Slayage het volgende:

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Je ziet zelf ook wel in dat er een gapend gat zit tussen "de regio onder verscherpt toezicht plaatsen" iets wat ik uiteraard ook begrijp, immers de regio is goud waard. En ik begrijp de Chinese gevoeligheden vwb de chaos waar ze in het verleden veel hebben geleden in hun onderlinge strijd en met de verschillende imperialistische mogendheden die het land hebben uitgebuit, Hong Kong is daar bv een uitvloeisel van, maar het rechtvaardigt nooit en te nimmer, dat ze de uyguren feitelijk proberen uit te roeien. Of dat ze voor het gehele land een maatschappij aan het inrichten zijn gebaseerd op Orwell's 1984, waarin het doel is om zombies te creëren, die zo gehersenspoeld zijn dat ze niet eens weten wat het is om een kritische burger te zijn. En dan in goed communistische traditie alles ontkennen en een eigen draai aan geven en de leugen blijven herhalen. De uyguren volgen vrijwillig een cursus. Uhu.

Daarnaast huilen de Chinezen over imperialisme en bemoeienissen bvan buitenaf vergetend dat zij de imperialistische mogendheid, de bezetter zijn in Tibet en oost Türkistan, wat ze tegenwoordig xin jang noemen. Met imperialisme is op zich niks mis mee tenzij je er last van hebt. Dat is wat ze duidelijk maken.

Ik wens Trump veel succes in zijn economische oorlog tegen de Chinezen en hoop dat de Europeanen eindelijk wakker worden om eens fatsoenlijk tegenwicht te bieden tegen de Chinese imperialistische ambities.

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This is why internet discussion in English on China is often low in quality. Reports are either sensationalized or outright fake, or dismissed as propaganda, so discussions tend to be based on false information.

https://www.reddit.com/r/(...)dit_score_isnt_real/

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How come Hong Kong leaders on either side don't do public exhortations?

Paul Kump, lives in Hong Kong
Answered 37m ago

Because they are ethnically Chinese, and Chinese are not westerners. Chinese leaders work through a bureaucracy.

Only westerners do public exhortations.

The most widespread political broadcast in Chinese you will hear is Mao's announcement of the establishment of the People's Republic on October 1, 1949. He had such a heavy Hunan accent most people had trouble understanding what he was saying.

Same goes for Chiang Kai-shek.

It's hard to be an inspiring speaker when people have trouble understanding what you are saying.

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Hong Kong is 4 times bigger than Singapore. Along with the American willingness to support in the current situation. Why are they not separated independently in the way as Singapore?

Paul Kump, lives in Hong Kong
Answered 43m ago

Hong Kong was separated from China because China was politically isolated, economically backward and ideologically driven. Many Chinese risked their lives to go to Hong Kong before 1980 for this reason. Hong Kong was a free trading port (not a democracy as some claim), where politics did not interfere in their lives, and hard work was rewarded.

Singapore was booted out of the Malayan Federation, and was too small and isolated to have its own market. This meant that it had to look other markets for growth. In contrast, Malaysia had a much larger home market, but the society was divided along racial lines among Malays, Chinese and Indians. Successive Malaysia governments tried to address social divisions and perceived inequities in the society through bumiputra policies which favored the Malays, but did not really contribute to overall growth.

In contrast, Singapore grew much faster.

Hong Kong is not separate from China because Hong Kong is going through a phase: it is all about when you want to become independent.

There is a simple rule: Seek independence when your economy is going uphill, not when your economy is going downhill.

If Hong Kong sought independence from China in 1997, when it contributed to 20% of China's GDP, China would have listened carefully, not in 2019, when it is only 3% and trending to less, not higher GDP.

The support from the US and the west is just a distraction, and will disappear when the news cycle changes, and the new shiny Trump object comes along.

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How can China censor all the social media and all the discussion forums when there are 1.3 billion people in China?

Paul Kump

It doesn't.

The people who are not happy with the Chinese government are not in China; they are in the US, Hong Kong and Taiwan, among other places. They very openly do not like the Chinese government, and have a following in the west.

All major Internet companies in China have business operating licenses, and have to follow Chinese government editorial guidelines which are updated daily. They have editorial teams, sometimes of hundreds of thousands of people, whose job is to monitor media postings before they go live, and sometimes to take them down if they go live.

Unlike Google and Facebook, they rely on human beings to monitor content, not automation.

If they miss something and it goes live, the company management is threatened with having their business license revoked if something goes viral.

The warning goes directly to the company CEO, not some low-level wannabe. If the company CEO is asked to go to Beijing tomorrow by a government ministry, he knows that he is going to get some kind of warning.

Let me tell you something: these CEOs really hate these meetings. They are usually in a very dark mood after they get these warnings in person, and will have a corporate internal investigation about what happened. Then they will go back to Beijing, explain what happened, and explain how it will not happen again.

Talk about eating humble pie.

That is how it's done.

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Why are so many questions asked on Quora very ignorant and anti-Chinese?

Tuan Helang, Retired Teacher at Mandarin Chinese
Answered Sun

Maybe because China is too complicated for a lot of people to understand.

A lot of people criticising or condemning China obviously have no idea what they are talking about because they only have a superficial understanding.

To truly grasp the "why" and "what" behind the actions of China, you need to have a good and clear understanding and knowledge of the history of China at least up to the last 3000 years. It is not easy, unless you are truly interested in Sinology, and things China / Chinese. (And oh, one need not be a historian to understand China better - you just need to put in more effort.)

But despite of the lack of understanding, a lot of people still demand that China follow their commands and do things the way they want or they will throw up a tantrum like a child and accuse China of being the devil.

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Do Chinese mainlanders actually feel jealous about the Hong Kong protesters who can stand up to fight for their freedom?

Ming Chen

This is like asking Britons who oppose Brexit if they are jealous of the Arab Spring protesters.

Many cheered, until the poor sods turned up on their shores as refugees.

Mass protest usually devolve into anarchy. Yes, even in the "free" world of sacred human rights and personal freedoms. Just ask 2019 France.

The mainlander recognize what is happening when they see people being tied up and assaulted at the airport, of all places. This is the new Cultural Revolution curated by digital media. Guess what? The Great Proletarian Revolution is passe--has been for four decades.



Envy?

Between protest and progress, I choose the latter.

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What is your opinion on Hong Kong's sinophobia by some parts of the people?

Jose Marco Bisnar

Thatcher only returned it after she couldn't convince Reagan to provide U.S. backing for keeping it. One can imagine that Mrs.Thracher got so upset when (her bluff of British superiority didn't work on Deng),... that she tripped at the steps of the Great Hall of the People in Beijing.

I'm extremely surprised that China did not interfere in the education system of Hong Kong. Considering the youth rioters were those born just before or after 1997. They were the prime candidates to be "re-educated" with proper education materials. Instead of bias materials.

What is now Xiang Gang, or Hong Kong for that matter, was Chinese territory for more than two millennia. The British only acquired the territory when they defeated China during the Opium Wars, and later got it on a lease for 99 years -- that means they are only borrowing the land for 99 years. After all that, and as we all know, it returned to its original owner, China. Otherwise, if it didn't belong to its original owner, why only possess it on a lease? Better yet, why give it back to its original owner?

This Western-caused superficial superiority by a number of Hongkongers is due to the fact that a few decades ago Hong Kong was enjoying economic progress while China was getting mired in the midst of a deadly civil war and later on remaining a third-world country despite decades of peace and mass industrialization. While Hong Kong has towering skyscrapers and producing world-class movies, China had only mudbrick homes and wooden huts with its cities having only crude industrial machines built by its government. Coupled with their pride on being "free" while under colonial control and thus the English rule of law which they perceived as the best alternative to either the rigid and strict Confucian system or the somewhat tyrannical Communist system, this only further reinforced the superficial superiority of the Hongkongers.

Fast forward since 1978. Most cities in China are now wealthier and more cosmopolitan than Hong Kong, and yet many of its natives -- even millennials -- still couldn't move on from the "golden age" of their own home turf.

Their naivety sickens me. The extradition controversy which fueled the disorder today in Hong Kong was actually caused by criminal incident where a criminal who killed an innocent pregnant woman in Taiwan, and all that the mainland ever asked for was to have the suspect answer for his crimes in the mainland instead of Hong Kong itself by some extradition bill they introduced. They didn't realize that not only they were covering up for a criminal, they are actually causing a severe rift in the One Country, Two Systems rule as agreed both by the Zhongnanhai and Victoria. And democracy for which they continue to scream about is no efficient method of governance and means to "gain freedom" at all, for while people get to choose leaders there is no telling that candidates indeed would live up to their promise. These guys probably have no idea how chaotic and potentially disastrous the Western-modelled democracy of Taiwan with all that inter-party conflicts was. And democracy does not immediately translate to freedom; Singapore was one, and yet it was probably even stricter than mainland China -- stranger yet, they either even support Beijing as they always did before (even during the Tiananmen incident) or chose to distance themselves from what's going on in Hong Kong.

I'm trying to warn Hong Kongers as a Filipino. Western democracy, especially the multiparty, the most liberal one, is a chopsuey laden with poisonous mushrooms. It may bring progress, but it also brings chaos. As an example that I can give to anybody on this thread, such a thing -- that these protesters so love --never favored my country the Philippines anything but chaos, disorder, crime, an incredibly weak economy and a sickly weak, corrupt-to-the-core, incompetent and incapable government since 1986 until perhaps 2016 at some parts. It is a myth that a Western-style democracy works if the electorate is educated. Look at America, do people feel represented by the current government despite being an educated electorate? Do people in Germany and Britain, with their governments favoring illegal aliens and giving them more rights than natives, feel the same these days? Mind you, their individual rights were also being trumped upon there. So much for these nations being "free", being emulated by the protesters out there.

If it weren't for Beijing, Hong Kong would have been nothing but a ghetto town since 2008 when it saved the ingrate little island from the clutches of the Global Financial Crisis that year. There continues the affluence of Hong Kong, and with it, the baseless pride of some of its natives who joined the protests.

If the Zhongnanhai is indeed tyrannical, they why did the Hong Kong police exercised so much restraint? Many police were beaten down by the protesters before they responded by brute force. Why until now did not the central government bother to send infantry and tanks to the streets of Kowloon and Victoria? It has been nearly five months since it all started until I wrote this answer. Why do people there go back and forth or even live at Shenzhen and the Pearl Delta cities if the mainland government was tyrannical? Why not at Hong Kong where they can boast of its being "free"?

Please, to all those agitators out there, go back to where you came from, for you will never know where you're going if you don't know what your actual roots are. But if you outright choose to be with the West, then please do leave and don't come back.

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Godefroy Meynard

I have seen Hong Kongers on Facebook. I have been surprised at how anti-China they are. Ironically the overseas Chinese who live in the developed world far away from the Chinese border were way more reasonable.

They seem to blame China for everything including having members of HK police infiltrating the protesters to arrest them. They told me it was something invented by the Chinese and that this doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. Everyone living in the West know that this is a very common practice for example in France where I live.

They don't understand China neither they understand the West but they are very vocal to convert people from the West to their ignorance which sadly work.

I have seen yellow vest pages supporting people from HK. Yellow vest are mostly proletarians with little education and low wages and are anti-establishment. They have been convinced to trust the people from HK who are supported by pretty much the whole West and the bankers and other establishment program. Very ironic.

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Op maandag 19 augustus 2019 21:05 schreef Aloulu het volgende:

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Ik ken deze retoriek broer. Elke “vorm van onrust” (lees terecht in opstand komen tegen grove mensenrechten schendingen) komt uiteraard door het boze Westen “die hen aanstuurt”. Deze riedel is zo fucking oud man. Sovjet Unie, communistische heilstaten, islamitische heilstaten of heilrepublieken, Arabistische paradijzen, noem het maar op.

Je erkent indirect dat de Oeigoeren erg hard worden aangepakt, wat niet nieuw is overigens. Maar het moet en zal worden ingegeven door Westerse beïnvloeding. Het kunnen in essentie niet legitieme grieven zijn van een deel van een (ander volk dan han-Chinezen) die geen zin hadden om ooit ingelijfd te worden door Mao’s krijgers en alle onafhankelijkheid op elk gebied te moeten hebben afstaan aan de centrale regering heel ver weg waar men te weinig mee deelt. En waar men al langer actief beleid heeft dit volk een minderheid in eigen gebied te maken. Maar, in essentie is dat niet de oorzaak van de onrust. Ze hebben zich laten beïnvloeden door Westers denken!
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Ik had je een vraag gesteld. Waar verblijf jij liever? Hier in NL of China waar je via een VPN op het web moet als je aan informatie wil komen die buiten de lijn van de staatsmedia valt.

Als je antwoord China; ben je of een leugenaar of zeer naïef. Als je eerlijk antwoord; NL. Dan begrijp je gelijk waarom een deel van de mensen in Hong Kong niet warm ervan worden om hun nog enige vorm (ernstig in geding al) van vrijheden in te leveren als ze definitief door Beijing zijn ingelijfd.

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Op maandag 19 augustus 2019 21:58 schreef Aloulu het volgende:

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Amerika herbergt de ambitie om de gehele aardbol in dienst van te stellen. Elke supermacht in die positie van power overigens. Alsmede China andersom, maar dan is het niet noemenswaardig waarschijnlijk. Verschil is dat China tot recent in de moderne recente historie nooit in die positie van macht is geweest, dat is het verschil met Amerika. En nu ze dat wel worden, een machtsfactor, gaan ze eilandjes creëren in zee enzo om hun. Imperialistische trekjes waar we zoals bij elke supermacht meer van gaan zien.

Je zit met je hoofd teveel in de geo-politiek. Het is heel simpel. Hebben de Oeigoeren, of Papuas in Indonesia, of Koerden ten tijde van Irak onder Saddam, of Tibetanen recht van spreken wanneer ze spreken over massale schendingen van hun mensenrechten? Ja, tenzij je het proportioneel (key-word) vindt wat er met hen gebeurt/gebeurde. Zoja, kom daar dan kort voor uit. Zo nee, dan heb je hier de kern van de kwestie en is de vervolgvraag; is als ze zich uitspreken tegen die grove mensenrechten schendingen gegrond? Of laten ze zodra ze zich daartegen uitspreken “zich lenen voor het Westerse imperialistische spelletje”? Maar ik denk dat je hier je kritische houding laat varen, en je afkeer van het imperialistische Westen zo groot is dat je je kritische geest heel even laat voor wat het is. Niet eerlijk. En o-zo jammer. Kom je bij de internationale socialisten veel tegen dit soort gasten.
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Beiden Aziatische landen waar je gewoon online rustig allerlei verschillende nieuwssites kan lezen zonder bang te zijn dat de staat op je deur klopt of gaat schaduwen omdat je “de verkeerde sites bezoekt en je laat opstoken door buitenlandse mogendheden”. In tegenstelling tot China. En als ook jij dit als iets onwenselijks voor jezelf beschouwt kan je niet ontkennen dat er mensen zijn in Hong Kong die legitieme angsten hebben dat zij na 2047 (dacht ik?) in een land leven waar ze ook in het geheim via een VPN op internet moeten om nieuwssites te lezen waar de overheid in Beijing van meent dat dat gelijkstaat aan “anti-chineze propaganda”. En strafbaar is.

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Op maandag 19 augustus 2019 21:21 schreef Slayage het volgende:

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1984 is technisch al mogelijk en is deels ook een feit, ook hier in het westen met de privacy wetten. De Netflix docu the great hack is aanbevelenswaardig. Alleen missen we hier in het westen een systeem met 1 partij dat over lijken gaat. Iets wat de Chinezen wel hebben, waardoor het voor hen een stuk dichterbij is en ook feitelijk wordt geïmplementeerd met als meest gevorderde regio natuurlijk de provincie van de uyguren. Waar ze terrorisme aan het bestrijden. Tja dan mag alles natuurlijk als je kijkt wat de VS allemaal hebben uitgevreten in naam van terrorisme bestrijding.