abonnement Unibet Coolblue Bitvavo
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 14:36:06 #1
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140053329








quote:
Tijdlijn van de ontwikkelingen in Oekrane
NOVEMBER
* Nov 21: Kiev suddenly announces suspension of trade and association talks with the EU and opts to revive economic ties with Moscow, triggering months of mass rallies in Kiev.
* Nov 30: Riot police try to break up the Kiev demonstration by force. Protest turns against Yanukovich and his government.

DECEMBER
Protests continue with crowds of up to 800,000. Some clashes with police. Opposition forms bloc called Maidan. Yanukovich and Putin meet, Putin agrees to buy $15 billion of Ukrainian debt and to slash by a third the price of Russian gas supplies to Ukraine.

JANUARY
* Jan 22: Three people die in protests in Kiev. EU threatens action over crisis. Talks between opposition, Yanukovich fail.
* Jan 23: Washington threatens sanctions over violence.
* Jan 26: Unrest spreads to pro-Yanukovich east.

FEBRUARY
Anti-government protests turn increasingly violent. At least 77 people killed in clashes between demonstrators and police.
* Feb 21: Opposition leaders sign EU-mediated peace pact with Yanukovich.
* Feb 22: Ukraine's parliament votes to remove Yanukovich, who flees. Arch-rival Yulia Tymoshenko released from jail.
* Feb 26: Ukraine appoints new government. Angry Russia puts 150,000 troops on high alert.
* Feb 27-28: Armed men seize Crimea parliament, raise Russian flag. Militia take control of two airports in Crimea.

MARCH
* March 1: Putin wins parliamentary approval to invade Ukraine, angering the White House. Russian forces fan out in Crimea.
* March 6: Crimea's leadership votes to join Russia. U.S. President Barack Obama orders sanctions on those responsible for Moscow's actions in Ukraine.
EU leaders hold emergency summit to find ways to pressure Russia to back down and accept mediation.
* March 15: Two killed in clashes between pro-Russian demonstrators and Ukrainian nationalists.
* March 16: Referendum held in Crimea, shows overwhelming support for joining the Russian Federation.
* March 21: Putin signs laws completing annexation of Crimea. The U.S. imposes sanctions on Putin's close allies, EU follows with similar measures.
* March 23: NATO says Russia has amassed a large force at Ukraine's border.
* March 24: Ukraine pulls troops from Crimea.

APRIL
* April 2: NATO suspends cooperation with Russia.
* April 7: Pro-Russia activists in eastern Ukraine proclaim the creation of the "Donetsk People's Republic".
* April 12: Separatists take control of city of Slaviansk in eastern Ukraine. Kiev prepares troops.
* April 13: One Ukrainian state security officer killed and five wounded in operation against separatists.
* April 14: Obama warns Putin in phone call that Moscow would face further costs for its actions in Ukraine.
* April 17: Pro-Russian separatists seize armored vehicles of Ukraine forces trying to recapture rebel-controlled town.
* April 18: The United States, Russia, Ukraine and the EU reach deal for illegal armed groups to disarm and end occupations of public buildings and spaces.
* April 19: Separatists say they will not sign deal until the Kiev government steps down.
* April 24: Ukraine sends in troops again to try to expel the separatists in Slaviansk, kill five rebels.
* April 25: Ukrainian forces mount full blockade of Slaviansk. Separatists detain group of international observers, say a Kiev "spy" among them.
* April 26: G7 leaders agree to impose extra sanctions on Russia over Ukraine. Yatsenyuk cuts short a Vatican trip to see Pope Francis, saying Russian warplanes violated Ukraine's airspace seven times overnight. Russia denies the claim.
* April 27: Rebels say the OSCE observers are "prisoners of war" and present them in front of the press, where they say they have not been mistreated.
* April 28: West imposes new sanctions on Moscow. Russia vows a "painful" response. Russia says troops have returned to barracks after conducting exercises on the border with Ukraine. The West says there is no sign of this pull-back. Russia assures the US it will not invade Ukraine.
* April 29: Russia accuses Washington of seeking to revive Iron Curtain policies. Putin warns sanctions could harm Western interests in Russia's lucrative energy sector, denies there are Russian forces in eastern Ukraine.
* April 30: Kiev says its armed forces are on "full combat alert" against a possible Russian invasion. Interim president Oleksandr Turchynov admits Kiev is "helpless" to prevent rebels over-running towns. Rebels storm the regional police building and town hall in Gorlivka. The International Monetary Fund approves $17-billion aid deal for the beleaguered Ukrainian economy.

MAY
* May 1: Some 300 pro-Russian militants seize prosecutor's office in Donetsk amid violent clashes with police. Conscription reintroduced for all Ukrainian men aged 18-25.
* May 2: Ukrainian commandos launch pre-dawn raid to retake Slavyansk. Rebels shoot down two helicopters and two servicemen are killed.
* May 3: Slavyansk rebels free OSCE inspectors after Kremlin envoy intervenes. Two days of mourning proclaimed over Odessa deaths. Fierce firefights around Slavyansk and nearby towns as military seeks to retake control.
* May 4: Kiev vows to expand "anti-terrorism" operations. Yatsenyuk launches probe into security forces in Odessa over the deaths.
Liveblog Al Jazeera
Liveblog Kyiv Post
Liveblog RT
Liveblog The Guardian
Interactieve tijdlijn NOS
The view from nowhere.
pi_140053802

Ofwel een "gewone" pipe bomb, ofwel zit er een hoog explosief en detonatorlading in (dan mag de maker van geluk spreken dat ie z'n handen nog heeft)
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 14:58:55 #3
192592 SureD1
------------------------------
pi_140053836
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 14:57 schreef meth1745 het volgende:
[ afbeelding ]
Ofwel een "gewone" pipe bomb, ofwel zit er een hoog explosief en detonatorlading in (dan mag de maker van geluk spreken dat ie z'n handen nog heeft)
Met een fragmentatiemantel... Dat is geavanceerde huisvlijt!
pi_140054958
quote:
1s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 14:58 schreef SureD1 het volgende:

[..]

Met een fragmentatiemantel... Dat is geavanceerde huisvlijt!
Gebaseerd op de "typische" handgranaat van WO1 (en 2). Is sindsdien gebleken dat het niet effectief is, tegenwoordig zijn de inkepingen aan de binnenzijde (Munroe effect: holte tussen de lading en het metaal concentreert de kracht in een punt. Is per toeval ontdekt: een fabrikant leverde springkatoen met z'n naam in gestempeld. Bij testen tegen bepantsering lieten de letters diepere indrukken achter)
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 16:06:37 #5
56633 JimmyJames
Unspeakable powers
pi_140055272
Please Move The Deer Crossing Sign
pi_140055477
Slavyansk:

hoeveel van die dingen hebben ze? Moet ergens een lijst van wapendepots te vinden zijn, rapporten van organisaties die toezien op vernietiging van stockpiles bvb. Maar dat wordt zoeken...

EuromaidanPR: another journalist missing in luhansk

NBC News: Meet the Russian Orthodox Army, Ukrainian Separatists' Shock Troops

GrahamWP_UK twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:04:52 Civil servants in Donetsk Republic no idea when will return to work as unclear who will pay salaries formerly paid by Kiev. #Ukraine reageer retweet
pi_140055762
quote:
Spain allows Russia to use its port

Spain has sparked an international outcry after it let Russian ships dock at its port in African exclave Ceuta.

The country has been accused of ‘absurdity and hypocrisy’ after allowing three Russian navy ships to dock in its North African territory.

UK MPs have criticized Madrid’s decision to allow the vessels, which included a heavily-armed destroyer, to take on food, fuel and supplies.

The ships docked in Ceuta just two weeks ago as tensions increased between NATO and Russia over the Ukraine crisis.

Spain, which is a NATO member, is being accused of double standards as they form part of an alliance which is standing up against Russia over the ongoing Ukraine conflict.

The Ceuta disclosure has highlighted Spain’s hypocrisy over Gibraltar and recent tension over British sovereignty while Spain persists in controlling Ceuta and Melilla, their territories some fifty miles away in Morocco.

In Parliament last night (Wednesday) Conservative MP Andrew Rosindell said: “How is the defence alliance supposed to work if members of NATO behave like this?

“It is completely perverse and highlights the absurdity and short-sightedness of Spain’s position. We are supposed to be allies.

“It is also blatantly hypocritical to allow Russian warships to use a territory which is not part of mainland Spain while complaining to the UK about us having Gibraltar.

“Spain is going to achieve nothing by pursuing these shoddy and nonsensical policies.”
quote:
Ukraine crisis like WWI eve: German ex-chancellor

Former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt has blamed bureaucrats from the European Union for the crisis in Ukraine, likening it to the lead-up to the World War I.

In an interview with German paper Bild on Friday, the 95-year-old Social Democratic politician said that the situation in the country recalls the eve of the WWI.

"I think very little of talking up the threat of World War III, and especially of demands for more money to arm NATO," said Schmidt, who was the German chancellor from 1974 to 82, adding, "But the danger that the situation gets ever more tense, as it did in August 1914, is growing day by day."

“The situation to me seems increasingly comparable to the eve of war a century ago. He stated, adding that the world powers were "acting the way author Christopher Clark describes the start of World War I in his very readable book, like 'sleepwalkers'."

Schmidt also slammed the European Commission for interfering in the world’s politics, of which "most commissioners understand very little."

"The latest example is the attempt of the European Commission to annex Ukraine and also to try to draw in Georgia. Just a reminder: Georgia lies outside of Europe. This is megalomania. We have no business being there. The officials and bureaucrats in Brussels... are confronting Ukraine with the apparent choice of having to choose between West and East."

The crisis in Ukraine began last November, after the country’s then president, Viktor Yanukovych, refrained from signing a deal with the EU in favor of closer ties with neighboring Russia.
NewEastEurope twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:06:41 #Ukraine: Yatsenyuk in Kharkiv promises decentralization, special status for Russian and other languages and amnesty for separatists. reageer retweet
ulvdis twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:07:55 WTF Orban again calls for autonomy for Hungarians in #Ukraine. https://t.co/V4bmIz8tdA #Hungary #diplomacy #fail via Kresy-Siberia reageer retweet
pi_140056435
Gaat spannend worden.
Ура для россии
pi_140056654
hdevreij twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:21:22 #Ukraine Video (graphic): bodies of insurgents killed near #Kramatorsk https://t.co/vThXuDSI5n reageer retweet

GrahamWP_UK twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:18:10 Video to come as I revist this scene, Andrievka,of this morning's latest shelling by Ukrainian army upon #Slavyansk -https://t.co/PFYxeuYc3e reageer retweet
Op 4:50 en 6:07 wordt vanaf de heuvel geschoten

Welk wapen/kaliber zou het zijn? Geen mortier alvast want de shell komt aan voor je het afvuren hoort, gaat dus sneller dan het geluid.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 18:30:39 #10
192592 SureD1
------------------------------
pi_140059500
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 17:05 schreef meth1745 het volgende:
hdevreij twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:21:22 #Ukraine Video (graphic): bodies of insurgents killed near #Kramatorsk https://t.co/vThXuDSI5n reageer retweet

GrahamWP_UK twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:18:10 Video to come as I revist this scene, Andrievka,of this morning's latest shelling by Ukrainian army upon #Slavyansk -https://t.co/PFYxeuYc3e reageer retweet
Op 4:50 en 6:07 wordt vanaf de heuvel geschoten

Welk wapen/kaliber zou het zijn? Geen mortier alvast want de shell komt aan voor je het afvuren hoort, gaat dus sneller dan het geluid.
Bij het eerste schot leek zowel het mondingsvuur als de daadwerkelijke ontploffing groter dan bij het tweede, dat deed me denken aan twee soorten munitie? De baan lijkt ook vrij vlak, dat kan zijn omdat de afstand vrij kort is... Mijn gok, maar niet meer dan dat, zou tankgeschut zijn... Wat hebben die T-70's 120mm of zo?

Edit: dat rood witte geval is de TV toren bij Slaviansk waarom zoveel te doen is? Iemand in de comments bij het filmpje (aan zijn avatar te zien pro-Ukrans) zegt dat de tv toren elke avond vanuit de fabriek die je op de voorgrond ziet beschoten wordt.

[ Bericht 2% gewijzigd door SureD1 op 17-05-2014 18:41:52 ]
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 19:00:59 #11
339669 JerryWesterby
Keep rocking in the free world
pi_140060614
The 'physical world' is a postulated explanatory framework which abstracts certain properties (physical properties) from our experience and thinks of them as objectively existing.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 19:05:04 #12
421524 SadPanda
#FreePalestine #FreeBahrain
pi_140060777
The self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) won’t participate in the election of the Ukrainian president on May 25, says the new prime minister of the breakaway region in the East of the country.

“There won’t be any presidential elections on the territory of the republic,” announced Aleksandr Borodai, who was elected leader of the self-proclaimed republic on Friday.
http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/
Anti-Turkije
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 19:25:21 #13
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140061625
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 19:00 schreef JerryWesterby het volgende:

[..]

H Deelnemer. Maar wat is nu jouw stellingname in deze kwestie?
Hoi Jerry. Dit is geen klassiek 'stelling-debat' topic, maar een topic in NEWS, waarin de ontwikkelingen in Oekraine worden gevolgd. Je hoeft dus geen stellingname te hebben. Maar je kunt tal van opinies hebben mbt tal van gebeurtenissen, gericht op je eigen idee van de ideale toekomst.

Uiteraard gun ik de Oekrainers het beste. Hoop ik dat Oekraine de huidige politieke en economische problemen te boven komt, wat meer los komt van de grote beer Rusland, niet al te veel doorslaat in nationalisme, en minderheden het zijne gunt. Ik ben dus voor een verenigd-Oekraine.

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door deelnemer op 17-05-2014 19:35:32 ]
The view from nowhere.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 19:52:44 #14
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140063065
quote:
Ukraine Rebels to Ask to Join Russia as Fighters Free Leader

About 200 rebels attacked the Dovzhanskyi border station today, freeing Luhansk insurgent leader Valeriy Bolotov, who’d been detained crossing from Russia, Ukraine’s border service said on its website.
The view from nowhere.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 20:08:08 #15
339669 JerryWesterby
Keep rocking in the free world
pi_140063791


[ Bericht 100% gewijzigd door JerryWesterby op 17-05-2014 20:09:18 ]
The 'physical world' is a postulated explanatory framework which abstracts certain properties (physical properties) from our experience and thinks of them as objectively existing.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 21:12:02 #16
408238 Gabrunal_2013
this is my home
pi_140067448
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 16:29 schreef meth1745 het volgende:

[..]

[..]

NewEastEurope twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:06:41 #Ukraine: Yatsenyuk in Kharkiv promises decentralization, special status for Russian and other languages and amnesty for separatists. reageer retweet
ulvdis twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 16:07:55 WTF Orban again calls for autonomy for Hungarians in #Ukraine. https://t.co/V4bmIz8tdA #Hungary #diplomacy #fail via Kresy-Siberia reageer retweet
Wijze woorden van de oud Bondskanselier! De EU moet zijn neus niet in andermans zaken steken. De bemoeienis van de EU met de Crisis in Oekraine en het gestook in Georgie zijn een levensgevaarlijke inmenging in gebieden waar wij niets te zoeken hebben. Ook interessant de positie van Spanje en de heimelijk steun aan de Russen om de Britten onder druk te kunnen zetten.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 21:23:06 #17
323876 michaelmoore
I want to live a hundred years
pi_140067992
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 21:12 schreef Gabrunal_2013 het volgende:

[..]

Wijze woorden van de oud Bondskanselier! De EU moet zijn neus niet in andermans zaken steken. De bemoeienis van de EU met de Crisis in Oekraine en het gestook in Georgie zijn een levensgevaarlijke inmenging in gebieden waar wij niets te zoeken hebben. Ook interessant de positie van Spanje en de heimelijk steun aan de Russen om de Britten onder druk te kunnen zetten.
oekraine gewoon opdelen in 4 stukken
Er gaat niets boven lekker in de zon zitten in de achtertuin met een heel koud glas bier , als je al 72 jaar bent en nog gezond, laat ze maar lachen de sukkels
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 21:26:24 #18
192592 SureD1
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pi_140068130
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 21:12 schreef Gabrunal_2013 het volgende:

[..]

Wijze woorden van de oud Bondskanselier! De EU moet zijn neus niet in andermans zaken steken. De bemoeienis van de EU met de Crisis in Oekraine en het gestook in Georgie zijn een levensgevaarlijke inmenging in gebieden waar wij niets te zoeken hebben. Ook interessant de positie van Spanje en de heimelijk steun aan de Russen om de Britten onder druk te kunnen zetten.
Eens met Schmidt over zijn paralellen met WOI dat boek van Clark is een aanrader...de overeenkomsten liggen voor het oprapen.

Uiteindelijk moet Ukrane zelf kunnen beslissen (is namelijk wel een Europees land) zonder chantage van welke kant dan ook. Mocht Ukrane voor de EU kiezen (en voor ze lid kunnen worden zijn we 20 jaar verder) dan begrijp ik de buffer zorgen van Rusland.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 21:28:40 #19
343860 UpsideDown
Baas Boven Baas
pi_140068227
Orbn zal wel denken: wat Rusland kan, kan ik wellicht ook. Zijn nationaal-conservatieve partij is wel een beetje vergelijkbaar met het beleid wat Poetin voert.
Say what?
pi_140068337
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 21:12 schreef Gabrunal_2013 het volgende:

[..]

Wijze woorden van de oud Bondskanselier! De EU moet zijn neus niet in andermans zaken steken. De bemoeienis van de EU met de Crisis in Oekraine en het gestook in Georgie zijn een levensgevaarlijke inmenging in gebieden waar wij niets te zoeken hebben. Ook interessant de positie van Spanje en de heimelijk steun aan de Russen om de Britten onder druk te kunnen zetten.
Orban is een idioot. Lekker conflict aanwakkeren, zo komen we er wel.
The problem is not the occupation, but how people deal with it.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 21:36:18 #21
192592 SureD1
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pi_140068580
quote:
13s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 21:31 schreef waht het volgende:

[..]

Orban is een idioot. Lekker conflict aanwakkeren, zo komen we er wel.
Hoog tijd voor een fatsoenlijk EU buitenlands en defensie beleid. Nu varen we 28 verschillende koersjes... Poetin lacht zich een breuk.
pi_140068648
Ukraine: Berichten unter Lebensgefahr
Controle van perskaarten, rebellen die op internet opzoeken wat de journalist geschreven heeft.
kidnapping, mishandeling, losgeld vragen, excuses van de leiders etc..
Zie link voor heel het verhaal.

quote:
1s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 18:30 schreef SureD1 het volgende:

[..]

Bij het eerste schot leek zowel het mondingsvuur als de daadwerkelijke ontploffing groter dan bij het tweede, dat deed me denken aan twee soorten munitie? De baan lijkt ook vrij vlak, dat kan zijn omdat de afstand vrij kort is... Mijn gok, maar niet meer dan dat, zou tankgeschut zijn... Wat hebben die T-70's 120mm of zo?

Edit: dat rood witte geval is de TV toren bij Slaviansk waarom zoveel te doen is? Iemand in de comments bij het filmpje (aan zijn avatar te zien pro-Ukrans) zegt dat de tv toren elke avond vanuit de fabriek die je op de voorgrond ziet beschoten wordt.
Zou meer dan n wapen kunnen zijn, erg goed is het niet te zien maar de tweede flits lijkt iets meer naar rechts te zijn. Moeilijk te zeggen of het geluid van de video helemaal synchroon loopt, maar aangenomen dat het zo is dan is de afstand tot de camera ongeveer 2.3 km. Inslag op zo'n 410 meter afstand. Ik kom op een "shell velocity" van 624 m/s en 670 m/s (als het een rechte baan en constante snelheid zou zijn..). Een wapen met een muzzle velocity tussen 650 en 900 m/s ruw geschat... Snelheid hangt ook af van het type projectiel, hmm, dan komt er veel in aanmerking. T-84 125 mm met HE-FRAG shells, 2A65 152 mm houwitzer...
pi_140070326
i Artikel van 11 maart over de Ultras op de Krim:
futbolgrad.com: Crimea developments, the lonely voice of the pro-ukraine tavriya ultras
quote:
As with other Ultra groups, the fans of Crimea’s biggest club Tavriya Simferopol were involved in Ultra groups’ collective defence of ‘ordinary’ protesters, which took place not only in Kyiv but all across Ukraine. In the previous article “Ukrainian Ultras and the Unorthodox Revolution” attention focused on the involvement of Ukraine’s Ultras scene during the Maidan demonstrations.
Wist niet dat de Ultras reeds bij Maidan meededen. Heb geen goed overzicht/inzicht van wat er toen allemaal gebeurde, maar op sommige sites lijkt het ook een oorlog, bvb: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html

i EuromaidanPR: How to save the Donbas

i Gaffe-prone John Kerry suggests governing war-torn Libya is as easy as running Massachusetts

i
vicktop55 twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 21:53:43 Explosions heard in #Slavyansk, reports of fighting — RT News http://t.co/Q0ULCJs2R7 reageer retweet
i
LarsGyllenhaal twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 21:48:28 BREAKING: New statements by supreme commander Strelkov/Girkin - says have enough weapons but alarmingly few troops: http://t.co/ljeg7vWcB4 reageer retweet
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 22:10:19 #24
421524 SadPanda
#FreePalestine #FreeBahrain
pi_140070438
quote:
13s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 21:31 schreef waht het volgende:

[..]

Orban is een idioot. Lekker conflict aanwakkeren, zo komen we er wel.
Hij roept gewoon op tot meer rechten :')
Anti-Turkije
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 22:11:37 #25
421524 SadPanda
#FreePalestine #FreeBahrain
pi_140070530
Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said that “treason” is the reason why the so-called “people’s governor” of the self-proclaimed Lugansk Republic, Valery Bolotov, was freed, UNIAN reported.

Bolotov was detained by Ukrainian border guards at a checkpoint in Lugansk region early on Saturday. The military was waiting for helicopters to transport Bolotov to another location when a group of armed individuals attacked the checkpoint and took him away.

The head of counterintelligence of the “United Army of the Southeast,” Vladimir Gromov, confirmed to Interfax that about 150 people took part in the liberation of the “people's governor.” He said that Bolotov's detention was ordered by Kiev and that about 40 border guards and over “70 armed people” took part.

“Talks with them brought no result,” he said. “Following a 15-minute shutout,” the United Army of the Southeast troops managed to free “the people’s governor,” Gromov said.
http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/
Anti-Turkije
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 22:21:08 #26
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140071050
quote:
1s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 21:26 schreef SureD1 het volgende:

[..]

Eens met Schmidt over zijn paralellen met WOI dat boek van Clark is een aanrader...de overeenkomsten liggen voor het oprapen.

Uiteindelijk moet Ukrane zelf kunnen beslissen (is namelijk wel een Europees land) zonder chantage van welke kant dan ook. Mocht Ukrane voor de EU kiezen (en voor ze lid kunnen worden zijn we 20 jaar verder) dan begrijp ik de buffer zorgen van Rusland.
Even Geopolitieken:

Als Rusland aanschuift bij Het Westen, ipv voor tegenpool te spelen, dan omvat Het Westen:
- N-Amerika + Europa + Rusland
- de hele noordkant van de aardbol
- een miljard mensen
- met gemeenschappelijke wortels in het Griekse oudheid en Christelijke religie
- met voldoende grondstoffen, water en vruchtbare grond.

Voor het geval dat er machtsblokken gevormd worden, is dit een natuurlijk blok met voldoende omvang om zich te kunnen meten met iedere andere partij.

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door deelnemer op 18-05-2014 00:08:32 ]
The view from nowhere.
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 22:22:41 #27
421524 SadPanda
#FreePalestine #FreeBahrain
pi_140071130
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 22:21 schreef deelnemer het volgende:
Als Rusland aanschuift bij Het Westen, ipv voor tegenpool te spelen, dan omvat Het Westen:
Het westen wil dat echter niet, ze blijven maar Rusland pesten.
Anti-Turkije
pi_140071162
Van de "authorised biographer of Margaret Thatcher":
quote:
Lessons from the Thirties show us why we can’t appease Vladimir Putin

I was amazed to see a recently released film by the Eurosceptic Bruges Group devoted to blaming the EU for the Ukrainian crisis. Here is an organisation named after Margaret Thatcher’s famous appeal that the capitals of the Soviet Bloc should be seen as “great European cities” cut off from their roots by Communism. Yet it is feeling all sorry for the ex-KGB thug now in charge of the post-1989 residue.
Huh? Die speech staat toch om iets anders bekend dacht ik:
quote:
During a 1988 speech in Bruges she outlined her opposition to proposals from the European Community (EC), forerunner of the European Union, for a federal structure and increased centralisation of decision making.
"We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level, with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels".
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 22:29:41 #29
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140071531
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 22:08 schreef meth1745 het volgende:
Wist niet dat de Ultras reeds bij Maidan meededen.
En ook de mijnwerkers uit Donbass. Het begon als een nationaal volksprotest.
The view from nowhere.
pi_140071945
i Graham heeft lol:
GrahamWP_UK twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 21:41:36 Shooting stopped, so back indoors checking up what @EuromaidanPR think of me :)) http://t.co/uCS24CCjTa reageer retweet


i
GrahamWP_UK twitterde op zaterdag 17-05-2014 om 17:59:35 A look a the destroyed barricades sw of #Slavyansk, as Ukraine army plans to enter city focus in on this entrance - https://t.co/ikGASanyRM reageer retweet

i Poll op http://www.livejournal.com/poll/?id=1964435
SPOILER: edit, nevermind, staat half uur later nog steeds op 224 stemmen...
Om spoilers te kunnen lezen moet je zijn ingelogd. Je moet je daarvoor eerst gratis Registreren. Ook kun je spoilers niet lezen als je een ban hebt.


[ Bericht 2% gewijzigd door meth1745 op 17-05-2014 23:14:02 ]
pi_140073126
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 22:29 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

[..]

En ook de mijnwerkers uit Donbass. Het begon als een nationaal volksprotest.
Misschien moet ik opnieuw tv aanschaffen voor het "algemene nieuws". Met internet ben ik altijd op n zaak gefocused, wil ik nieuws lezen dan kom ik niet verder dan het eerste interessante bericht, rest van de dag gaat op aan details en achtergronden uitzoeken. :')
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 23:15:51 #32
192592 SureD1
------------------------------
pi_140073980
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 22:21 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

[..]

Even Geopolitieken:

Als Rusland aanschuift bij Het Westen, ipv voor tegenpool te spelen, dan omvat Het Westen:
- N-Amerika + Europa + Rusland
- de hele noordkant van de aardbol
- een miljard mensen
- met gemeenschappelijke wortels in het Griekse oudheid en Christelijke religie
- met voldoende grondstoffen, water en vruchtbare grond.

Voor het geval dat er machtsblokken gevormd worden, is dit een natuurlijk blok met voldoende omvang om zich zich te kunnen meten met iedere andere partij.
Ben ik het zo mee eens hoor. Ik denk niet zozeer dat het Westen Rusland (meer) pest (hebben ze onder Jeltsin wel gedaan hoor, toen was het voor het Westen duidelijk wie de Koude Oorlog gewonnen had). Rusland onder Poetin wil voor vol worden aangezien, en ze hebben enorm potentieel, en tijdens de crisis werd er in het Westen met ontzag naar de BRIC landen gekeken, daar lag de toekomst. Voor een vreedzame vooruitgang was dat beter geweest als Rusland en het Westen (veel) meer toenadering hadden gezocht. ergens ligt een bijvoorbeeld een vrijhandelszone tussen Rusland en de EU veel meer voor de (geografische) hand dan een dergelijke zone tussen de EU en de VS.

Nu de crisis voorbij lijkt te zijn is het over en uit met de BRIC landen...Brazili gaat ook niet goed meer en Rusland is op een paar maanden tijd hier in het westen weer Vijand nummer 1, bizar eigenlijk...en geen gunstige ontwikkeling imho..
  zaterdag 17 mei 2014 @ 23:17:10 #33
192592 SureD1
------------------------------
pi_140074025
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 22:54 schreef meth1745 het volgende:

[..]

Misschien moet ik opnieuw tv aanschaffen voor het "algemene nieuws". Met internet ben ik altijd op n zaak gefocused, wil ik nieuws lezen dan kom ik niet verder dan het eerste interessante bericht, rest van de dag gaat op aan details en achtergronden uitzoeken. :')
Gisteren was het algemene nieuws hier (en ik neem aan bij jullie zeker) Bende van Nijvel... Als je daarover gaat lezen ben je ook zo een paar dagen kwijt :)
pi_140074676
quote:
1s.gif Op zaterdag 17 mei 2014 23:17 schreef SureD1 het volgende:

[..]

Gisteren was het algemene nieuws hier (en ik neem aan bij jullie zeker) Bende van Nijvel... Als je daarover gaat lezen ben je ook zo een paar dagen kwijt :)
strategie van de terreur en Gladio, Bende De Staercke, Politici en roze baletten, de rijkswacht (Bouhouche), extreem rechts, Westland New Post, Murat Kaplan, Haemers... theorien genoeg geweest, meer waarschijnlijk dat het geen high profile bekenden waren.
http://www.bendevannijvel.com/
http://tueriesdubrabant.winnerbb.com/

i
quote:
A mysterious "consultant" from Moscow who helped steer through Russia's annexation of Crimea has been appointed prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic in eastern Ukraine.

"In essence, I am what can be called a professional consultant," the burly Aleksandr Borodai told journalists at his first press conference Saturday in a plush Donetsk hotel.

"I have resolved all kinds of complicated conflict situations," the 41-year-old said. "For that reason, personally speaking, my specialisation was what was needed here."

The unshaven Muscovite -- who says his expertise is in ethnic conflict -- was chosen as premier by the parliament of the Donetsk rebel republic on Thursday just days after it declared independence from Kiev following a disputed referendum and appealed to join Russia.

http://www.digitaljournal(...)384021#ixzz320g3Jmqy
pi_140075747
quote:
Maidan scenario may repeat itself in Azerbaijan, says US envoy

The United States’ ambassador to Azerbaijan said his close monitoring of the situation in the country signals the likelihood of developments similar to those in Ukraine’s Euromaidan.
In an interview with the Azerbaijani service of RFE/RL (Azadliq), Richard Morningstar particularly pointed out to pressures against opposition activists, and their arrests.
Noting that the topic has always been on his country’s spotlight, the diplomat referred to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s remark (made in the course of her 2012 visit to Azerbaijan’s capital, Baku) that the United States builds close ties only with democratic countries.
Morningstar said a tougher government stance on the civil society will increase the likelihood of the Maidan scenario in Baku sooner or later.
Commenting on the statement made by the US co-chair of the OSCE Minsk Group, James Warlick, earlier this month, the ambassador said his call for returning the seven regions surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh is in line with the United States’ position. He said it is important for Armenia and Azerbaijan to finally agree over peace in Nagorno-Karabakh, adding that the only impediment to such efforts may be Russia (which, according to him, may seek to increase influence on both states).
Een voorspelling of een aanmoediging?

DARPA kwam ooit met het voorstel voor een "Policy Analysis Market", een futures market die handelde in toekomstige gebeurtenissen in het Midden Oosten, zogenaamd een manier om meer betrouwbare voorspellingen op te leveren.
Jim Bell had zo'n idee eerder al ontwikkeld, onder de naam "assassination politics". Sindsdien heeft ie de meeste tijd achter tralies doorgebracht. De dood van ambtenaren van de Amerikaanse overheid voorspellen (en betaald worden als het uitkwam), daar kon de FBI niet mee lachen. Maar jaren later komt het ministerie van defensie met een een gelijkaardig idee om terreuraanslagen, staatsgrepen en de dood van leiders in het Midden Oosten te "voorspellen"...
Dat even terzijde, moest eraan denken toen ik dit bericht las..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 01:16:30 #36
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140078396
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 18 mei 2014 00:02 schreef meth1745 het volgende:
Morningstar said a tougher government stance on the civil society will increase the likelihood of the Maidan scenario in Baku sooner or later.
Ideeen over een moderne staat zijn een belangrijk verkoopverhaal voor de VS. Ze hameren op "the rule of law","free trade", "human rights", "democracy" & "civil society". In allerlei landen waar het bestuur niet goed functioneert, wordt dit verhaal uitgerold. Het is de oppositie die dit verhaal overneemt en daarmee hun eigen overheid het vuur aan de schenen legt. Revoluties, in allerlei kleuren, zijn het gevolg. De Oranje revolutie in Oekraine is een goed voorbeeld. De huidige crisis is daarvan een voortzetting.

[ Bericht 1% gewijzigd door deelnemer op 18-05-2014 10:34:38 ]
The view from nowhere.
pi_140081348
In de rubriek "Wie gelooft die mensen nog":

i
quote:
DMITRY TYMCHUK: Tonight terrorists preparing to withdraw special cargo into Russia.
Posted on May 18, 2014 by tilamuse
Dmitry Tymchuk, Coordinator, Information Resistance

05.17.2014
Translated and edited by Voices of Ukraine

information_resistance_logo_engAccording to the Information Resistance group, tonight terrorists are preparing to withdraw convoys with special cargo from the territory of Ukraine into the territory of Russia.

In particular, they will remove the dead bodies of terrorists killed in armed clashes with Ukrainian law-enforcers. There are several hundred corpses.

According to our data, the passage of convoys of corpses across the State border is planned for the Luhansk Oblast [region].

Earlier, during withdrawals after clashes with security forces, terrorists have always sought to take the bodies of the dead terrorists with them–to avoid their identification as citizens of Russia and members of the armed forces of the Russian Federation.
Ah, zo doen ze het...

i Volksrepubliek Donetsk gaat het ook voor de wind, op hun lijst staan 13 CIA en FBI medewerkers en 90 SBU's...
quote:
FBI-Agenten offenbar in der Ukraine gettet

Nach Angaben von Separatisten haben die Truppen der ukrainischen Regierung mehr Verluste erlitten, als sie bisher bekannt gaben. Viele Opfer waren Geheimdienstmitarbeiter

Das teilte der selbst ernannte Volksbrgermeister der umkmpften Grossstadt Slawjansk, Wjatscheslaw Ponomarjow, am Samstag der Agentur Interfax zufolge mit. Unter den Verlusten seien auch 13 gettete und 12 verletzte Mitarbeiter des US-Geheimdienstes CIA sowie vom FBI.

Bei der Anti-Terror-Operation im Osten der Ukraine haben die Regierungstruppen nach Informationen prorussischer Krfte bisher hhere Verluste erlitten als offiziell eingerumt. Mindestens 650 Menschen seien seit Anfang Mai verletzt, gefangen oder gettet worden.

Wie der Separatistenfhrer gemss Interfax in einer von der selbst ernannten Volksrepublik Donezk verffentlichten Videobotschaft behauptete, seien allein 90 Mitarbeiter des ukrainischen Geheimdienstes SBU bei den Kmpfen im Sdosten der Ex-Sowjetrepublik gestorben.
Kiev zelf zegt 24 doden te hebben, 16 soldaten, 3 SBU's en 5 national guards.
De VN schat het totaal aantal slachtoffers op 250, Maidan meegerekend
In Syri is dat een drukke namiddag...

Edit: dit zou blijkbaar kloppen.. :@
i Bericht van Voice of Russia:
quote:
Madeleine Albright to head US observer team in Ukraine’s presidential election – reports

Former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright will head a team of US observers to supervise Ukraine's upcoming presidential election, scheduled for May 25, the Voice of America radio station said on Friday.

Jane Harman, former congresswoman and Director of the Woodrow Wilson Center, told the Voice of America that US observers would be monitoring “standard things” at polling stations.

The observers will air their conclusions about how the election was held at a news conference after the vote, Harman said.

Foreign observers in Ukraine will include a large delegation from the International Republican Institute as well as lots of monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and other international organizations, she said


[ Bericht 6% gewijzigd door meth1745 op 18-05-2014 09:15:06 ]
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 08:59:32 #38
323876 michaelmoore
I want to live a hundred years
pi_140081401
hoe kunnen ze nu dode Oekrainse opstandelingen terugbrengen naar Rusland ??
Er gaat niets boven lekker in de zon zitten in de achtertuin met een heel koud glas bier , als je al 72 jaar bent en nog gezond, laat ze maar lachen de sukkels
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 09:24:28 #39
93076 BaajGuardian
De echte BG, die tof is.
pi_140081591
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 18 mei 2014 08:59 schreef michaelmoore het volgende:
hoe kunnen ze nu dode Oekrainse opstandelingen terugbrengen naar Rusland ??
Dat doen de kwaadaardige russische tovenaars met behulp van demonische zwarte magie.
Vraag yvonne maar hoe tof ik ben, die gaf mij er ooit een tagje voor.
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 09:54:21 #40
408238 Gabrunal_2013
this is my home
pi_140081869
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 18 mei 2014 01:16 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

[..]

Ideeen over een moderne staat zijn een belangrijk verkoopverhaal voor de VS. Ze hameren op "the rule of law","free trade", "mensenrechten", "democracy" & "civil society". In allerlei landen waar het bestuur niet goed functioneert, wordt dit verhaal uitgerold. Het is de oppositie die dit verhaal overneemt en daarmee hun eigen overheid het vuur aan de schenen legt. Revoluties, in allerlei kleuren, zijn het gevolg. De Oranje revolutie in Oekraine is een goed voorbeeld. De huidige crisis is daarvan een voortzetting.
kwamen deze ideen niet uit de koker van Jimmy Carter?
pi_140082295
Volgens mij gaat deze crisis langzaam maar zeker uit als een nachtkaars...
Zonder wrijving geen glans
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 11:23:12 #42
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140083169
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 18 mei 2014 09:54 schreef Gabrunal_2013 het volgende:

[..]

kwamen deze ideen niet uit de koker van Jimmy Carter?
Volgens mij is het geworteld in een lange traditie van politieke filosofie, waar ook de Amerikaanse grondwet uit voortkomt. Mede geinspireerd door het idee van een vrije markt economie uit de 19e eeuw. Mede geinsprireerd door 20e eeuwse beweging, die na WOI start met de volkerenbond, en na WOII herstart met de VN & mensenrechten.

"Civil society" is later in de mode geraakt. De nauwe definitie van democratie (het houden van verkiezingen) wordt verbreed tot een burgersamenleving waarin tal van organisaties opkomen voor de belangen van burgers.

Tegenwoordig is het de taal van "nation building" om het bestuur in landen te verbeteren. Neem bijvoorbeeld dit stuk over de Amerika's (ihb de zuid en midden Amerikaanse landen). Het is de taal van de 'liberal democrats' in de VS. Het is een ander verhaal, dan het verhaal de conservatief nationalistisch rechts, zoals Sloboda in Oekraine of Wilders in Nederland houdt.

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door deelnemer op 18-05-2014 11:48:35 ]
The view from nowhere.
pi_140083837
hoe zit het op de Krim?
* meth1745 gaat slapen
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 14:52:36 #44
408238 Gabrunal_2013
this is my home
pi_140089284
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 18 mei 2014 10:28 schreef haags_kwartiertje het volgende:
Volgens mij gaat deze crisis langzaam maar zeker uit als een nachtkaars...
dat denk ik niet!
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 15:52:24 #45
192592 SureD1
------------------------------
pi_140090909
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 18 mei 2014 14:52 schreef Gabrunal_2013 het volgende:

[..]

dat denk ik niet!
Ik ook niet...lijkt zich wel wat verder van het oog van de wereld af af te spelen:

http://www.volkskrant.nl/(...)osten-Oekraine.dhtml
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 15:59:06 #46
343860 UpsideDown
Baas Boven Baas
pi_140091138
Een stukje van Reuters:
quote:
Failing Ukraine state plays in to Russia's hands

By Elizabeth Piper

KIEV Sun May 18, 2014 4:41am EDT



A portrait of Russian President Vladimir Putin is displayed on a table in the hall of a regional administration building occupied by pro-Russian activists in the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk May 17, 2014.

(Reuters) - In late February, just two days after pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovich fled Kiev, Ukraine's parliament repealed a law enshrining the rights of Russian-speakers to use their first language.

Ukraine's Russian speakers, concentrated in the east and the south where the law applied, viewed the action as vengeful. In Moscow, Russia's leaders saw an opportunity.

Ukraine's new rulers took just five days to reverse course to once again allow the use of Russian in some schools, courts and other state institutions. Shocked by the outcry it caused, Ukraine's acting president had refused to sign the legislation.

But those five days were enough for Russian President Vladimir Putin to set in motion a chain of events that have undermined Kiev's pro Western government and drawn large areas of the country back into Russia's orbit, abetted by a divided West.

While Putin has presented separatist violence in eastern Ukraine as spontaneous, interviews with Ukrainian politicians and security sources with knowledge of Russian thinking suggest months of detailed planning by Moscow.

A key plank of Russia's plan, they say, was to deepen splits in a country that has struggled to form an identity since it emerged from the Soviet Union in 1991. To that end, Russia sought to exploit its connections to Ukrainian business, youth groups, the church, politicians and criminal networks.

The sources point to a paper from June 2013, described as a Kremlin consultation document by the Ukrainian newspaper Dzerkalo Tyzhnia and first made public in August that year. It sets out Moscow's fear of losing influence in Ukraine and its desire to draw its neighbor into an economic union.

The Kremlin declined to comment on the document, entitled "On the complex of measures to involve Ukraine in the Eurasian integration process", and Russian officials have previously written it off as a "provocation" by pro-Western politicians in Ukraine.

Bearing no signature or stamp, it is hard to trace its provenance, but a former security source in Ukraine corroborated its contents. He said he was present during conversations about the document involving officials in Ukraine with close connections to Moscow. Like others interviewed for this article he declined to be identified because of political sensitivities.

The document indicates that as far back as early 2013 Russia was nervous about Ukraine. Yanukovich's rule was widely seen as corrupt and the Kremlin was worried the president's unpopularity could harm Putin's plan to create a Russian-led "Eurasian" economic union to reunite part of the former Soviet Union.

Many Ukrainians believed Yanukovich was a Kremlin puppet, according to the document. Moscow was worried it would lose all influence in a new Ukraine if Yanukovich and his Party of the Regions were toppled.

"This aggravates the threat of a seizure of power by forces hostile to the Russian Federation," the document said.

"As the Party of the Regions has suppressed any independent pro-Russian movement, the collapse of the Yanukovich regime would leave us in a "scorched earth" situation, without any influential political forces on which we could rely."

It said Russia should apply pressure to oligarchs who enjoyed preferential trade with Russia but at the same time publicly criticized Putin's plan to create a Russian-led economic union.

A month after the report was written, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev decided to scrap quotas for steel pipe supplies, hitting at least one prominent oligarch. Russian pipe makers had taken issue with cheap Ukrainian pipe imports.

In the same month, Russia's consumer watchdog banned imports of sweets from the Roshen factory belonging to Ukrainian billionaire Petro Poroshenko, now front runner in a presidential election due on May 25.

The watchdog cited health concerns for the ban, saying a carcinogenic substance had been found in Roshen's chocolate.

PLANNING AHEAD
The document pinpointed one political movement in Ukraine that could help influence opinion, Ukrainian Choice led by Viktor Medvedchuk, a one-time adviser to Ukraine's former President Leonid Kuchma. Putin is godfather to one of Medvedchuk's children.

On Ukrainian Choice's website, Medvedchuk is sometimes critical of the roles of the United States and European Union in the crisis that has followed Yanukovich's fall and Russia's annexation of the Crimea region. He denies being pro-Russian.

In a statement to Reuters, he said Ukrainian Choice was pro-democracy. One of its founding principles was the "decentralization of power followed by the transition to a federal structure, while maintaining the territorial integrity and unity of Ukraine".

Russia too has spoken in favor of a "new federal constitution" for Ukraine, a system which would strengthen regional governors, possibly allowing Moscow to retain its influence in Ukraine's industrial east.

In response to questions from Reuters, Medvedchuk denied he was a go-between for Russia in Ukraine. He said he always had Ukraine's interests at heart and had nothing to do with the document.

"At this level all politicians are independent and act on the basis of their understanding of the public interest," he said.

Even so, a former intelligence source, who was present during conversations involving Ukrainian officials with close contacts to Moscow, said Russia had hoped Medvedchuk would become the savior when Yanukovich suppressed what it saw as inevitable protests.

But the protests came sooner than Russia expected and Moscow's plans changed. In November 2013 thousands of Ukrainians took to the streets angered by Yanukovich's decision to spurn closer ties with the European Union in favor of Moscow.

At this time, according to two sources in Ukraine's political and security apparatus, two of Putin's close allies took charge of "Project Ukraine", designed to spread the message that many Ukrainians would lose out if the country looked West.

Vladislav Surkov, a Putin aide, cultivated ties in Crimea, and Sergei Ivanov, Putin's chief of staff, took over Ukrainian operations, the sources said. The Kremlin declined to comment. Surkov and Ivanov did not respond to a request for comment.

NO NEED TO SET FOOT
With Russia's interests entrenched in Ukraine, many of those interviewed doubted whether Russia, which has massed troops at the border, needed to cross into Ukrainian territory to fuel the uprising in its east, where two regions have voted for self-rule.

The chaos in eastern Ukraine may already have achieved many of Putin's aims.

The Kremlin denies playing any role in the uprising.

Mykola Malomuzh, director of Ukraine's foreign intelligence service for five years until 2010, said Russia's target now was the presidential election - to have it postponed or make it impossible to be seen as legitimate.

"Putin has a network of his own among the special services, pro-Russian organizations, and the old regime which wields incredible influence through the mafia-type organizations which dominate the economy here," said Malomuzh, who is also running for president on May 25.

He suggested pro-Russian forces were already trying to influence the front runners in the election or lobby for its delay, although this could not be independently confirmed.

"If there's no legitimate leader who the people believe in, with whom to hold talks .... there will be no leader enough in control to move towards Europe," he said.
Say what?
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 16:15:16 #47
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140091699
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 18 mei 2014 11:53 schreef meth1745 het volgende:
hoe zit het op de Krim?
quote:
Krim-Tataren blazen herdenking af wegens onlusten

Leiders van de Krim-Tataren hebben een herdenkingsceremonie die zondag in Simferopol op het schiereiland zou plaatsvinden, afgeblazen. Dat wordt gemeld op de website van de Tataren, schrijven Russische media. Het plaatselijk bestuur op de Krim had vrijdag besloten alle massabetogingen te verbieden.
The view from nowhere.
  zondag 18 mei 2014 @ 16:46:09 #48
312994 deelnemer
ff meedenken
pi_140098242
Interview met (ex-?)leider van de Krim Tataren. De winnaar van de eerste Solidarnosk prijs in Polen die binnen enkele maanden (?) uitgereikt wordt btw. Van emaidanua facebook page.
quote:
Mustafa Dzhemilev, Rights Activist, 70 years old, Kyiv: Rules of Life

“I have some very stupid dreams: for example that I am arguing about something with Saddam Hussein.”

Since early childhood I knew that we had been vilely evicted from the Crimea, and that the Soviet government is not good.

In Uzbekistan, propaganda work had been carried out – they are bringing Crimean tatars, traitors of their Motherland, because of whom your fathers and grandfather had died, your children, your brothers and sisters. When we were getting off the trains, stones were thrown at us. Later, however, they came to their senses, started thinking: what kind of traitors are they – there are women, children on the station.

When Stalin died, they made us stand in line in the morning. Everyone cried – both the children and the teachers. Only one boy, Rishat Bekmambetov, who was a leader among us, said: “Guys, look. Everyone is crying, except for us, Crimean Tatars. I brought onions from home, let’s rub it on our eyes, or our parents will get arrested.”

At the lineup, the deputy headmaster started talking about the “great leader” with a tragic tone, however he couldn’t finish his phrase, he started crying. I then thought: “He’s acting. Father said that Stalin, the dog, had died, and the deputy headmaster is lamenting so much as if the end of the world had come.” When the deputy headmaster fled the lineup in hysterics, I wasn’t too lazy to follow him. I saw him walk into an empty classroom, he was beating his head against the wall and crying.

My parents told me a lot about their native village of Ai-Serez. There, every rock had its own name, and the sea splashed almost against the houses. However in reality Ai-Serez is located within seven kilometres of the sea.

They expelled me from university with a lot of pomp: they summoned me to the united assembly of the deans, deccans and the party-comsomol activists. Formally the accused me of publicising among the students the machine-typed text called “Brief historical outline of the culture of the Crimea in 13-18th centuries.” The outline was qualified as highly nationalistic and anti-Soviet. I told them: “Just read the title! In the thirteenth and eighteenth centuries there had been none of your Soviet government!” I tried to argue within my limit of power, I was thrown out into the corridor, and five minutes later invited into the dean’s office. I come in – and there is a state security colonel sitting next to the dean. Such a strange thing: at the discussion there had been no such colonel, when I was sitting in the corridor, he did not pass me by. It seemed as though during the discussion he had been standing behind a curtain. The dean says: “If you refuse your views and write a statement that henceforth you will be a normal Soviet person, we will consider whether to let you stay or not.” I answered: “So as not to engage you in deep thought, just tell me, when can I take my documents.” I turned to the KGB colonel and added: “Congratulations with yet another victory over the counter-revolution.” I was so enraged that I was afraid I would hit him. And he hissed in my wake: “Vermin.”

When someone lives in the same place for a long time, they inevitably grow accustomed to it, it becomes a home. But I have no such feelings for Uzbekistan: for me, it is associated with the Tashkent prison – as soon as I was arrested, they took me there in the first place. The attitude there was quite vile. I have seven convictions – some of them I served in Russia, however I sat quite a lot in Tashkent too.

I was taken for the first time for refusing to serve in the Soviet army. I was just among loving people and then lo and behold – a dark cell. The space was overcrowded, the faces were dark. I am walking around the cell, worried, and one prisoner is lying on the bed: “Compatriot, why are you running around? Go to your place, you’re not letting me rest!” I knew that everything depended on how you behave yourself in the first moment: if the cell sees your fear, there will be no life. I approach this lying prisoner, and he is twice my size, his fingers outstretched. I shout: “Did you say that to me? You’ll rest at home, you goat! This is not a resort for you!” I learned the local customs very well in advance.

I went hungry for ten months. You don’t eat anything for a week, then a doctor comes, touches you. If you are near death and there is a corpse stench from your mouth, they start force-feeding you. The jailer hold your hands, and the medics open your mouth, they put a tube into it, and pour in nutritional fluid through a funnel. I understood quickly that I shouldn’t resist, or they would knock out my teeth or pour in boiling water to burn my gastric tract.

Hunger is a monotonous process. A single cell, force-feeding once every eight days. They leave a piece of sausage in the cell – so that you break and start eating.

In Omsk prison I was afraid I wouldn’t be able to take it. I always had a razor for such cases – taking into account that I would always be able to slit my wrists. During one of the searches the razor was discovered. For me it became a real tragedy: I no longer had a backup way out.

The prisoners in the cell played dominoes frequently. Once they played that the loser would have to pour boiling hot water on the guard. There was one guard there, by the nickname of Khrushchev, quite dishonourable in character. Other guards walked around the corridors in shoes, and until they reached your cell, you would manage to hide everything prohibited. And Khrushchev approached the cell in socks and then ratted you out. For lunch they didn’t give soup, but hot water with vegetables. Khrushchev, as opposed to other guards, did not just put the soup into the “feeder,” but also stuck his face in after it. This is when the loser poured water on him. He screamed like a pig! The guards run in: “Who did it?” The cell has twenty-six people. Everyone is called one by one, they reached me. I come into the office, some young devil is sitting there, an investigator: “How are you? How’s life? Would you like to walk free on parole?” “Who doesn’t?” I answer. “So,” he tells me, “if you help us, then we will help you. Maybe someone has drugs, or, for example, thoughts of fleeing?” I answer: “Compatriot, are you trying to recruit me as a rat? How many denouncements would I have to write for you to free me? Write me a letter: how many denouncements I need to write, or you will fool me, and one smart person said that only fools believe plain words.” He told me: “What kind of idiot told you this?” “Lenin,” I answer. “Volume 22, page 315. You should have found out what I’m in for before recruiting me as a rat.”

In Soviet times all of your sentences were reflected, ricocheting against your family. It’s easier for you to serve your sentence, than for your wife to bring packages, with the constant please to get a meeting. As opposed to your family, you don’t have to listen to the rudeness of the policemen. You cannot prohibit your family from bringing things, they will bring them regardless.

I married in exile, in Yakutia. My bride came to me as a Decabrist – she was in our movement, we met as pen pals. At first she sent me information, then I asked her to send me her photograph, and then I invited her over to gather mushrooms. My wife then joked: “I would have fallen in love with you because you went hungry for three hundred and three days. And when I came to Yakutia I saw that you have to be cooked for every day.”

When my wife says, “I don’t know what to cook for you,” I always answer: “If you don’t know – make chebureki.”

When I flew to the Crimea for the first time in 1973, a girl was sitting next to me on the plane. In the airport she asked me: “How do you like our Simferopol?” And I answered: “And how do you like our Crimea?”

During my first visit I did not appreciate the treasures of the Crimea as much as the supervision of the KGB.

Moscow is denying that I will no longer be let into the Crimea, but in Simferopol airport I was given a paper: “Prohibition on entry on the territory of Russia for five years.” That made me laugh: I came back from your Russian Magadan twenty-six years ago and I am not going back to you. Who would have guessed that the Crimea would become Russia and it would be taken away from me.

I have some very stupid dreams: for example, I am arguing about something with Saddam Hussein.

I spent about half an hour talking on the phone with Putin. He asked us not to become a weapon of provocation and for there not to be bloodshed in the Crimea. I said that our points of view coincide, nobody wants bloodshed in the Crimea. As to the provocations, for their prevention it would be smart to remove the Russian army from the Crimea and hold talks with the leadership of the Mejlis. Putin reacted very interestingly: “I did not expect a different answer from you. Any honest person, a patriot of their country, has to answer just like you did. But let’s hold a referendum, find out the opinion of the Crimean people.” My attempts to explain that there is no such thing as Crimean people by themselves, but there is an indigenous population – the Crimean Tatars, which would never acknowledge a referendum and would boycott it, led to nothing.

I am religious, of course, but to come to the mosque five times a day – that’s a no. I can rarely come on Friday, and of course on holidays. But I did the Umrah thrice to Saudi Arabia. I remember that when I came to the Kaabah for the first time in 1996, our representative said: “Mustafa-aga, when someone sees the Kaabah, they have to say their most sacred wish to Allah, and it will definitely come true.” Later he asked me: “What did you ask of the Almighty, if this is not a secret?” I answered: “I asked Allah for national-territorial autonomy within Ukraine.” “Mustafa-aga, what have you done?” he cried.

As of lately I cannot read books – mostly the press or the Internet. I read the majority of my books in Lefortovo. Every day a new book. There was a rich stolen library there. Sometimes ex-libris’ of the shot owners were found on the pages.

For a long time it seemed to me that I had forgotten how to cry. Before in 1992 in one of the self-constructed houses next to our mosque, a gas tank blew up. Two children died in the fire. We came from the Mejlis, I walked on the ashes. The children had long been taken away, and suddenly I discovered a burnt school notebooks. I don’t remember this myself, but my friends said: “As soon as you started leafing through this notebook, tears started pouring from your eyes.”

I did not make big mistakes in my life. -Esquire.ru
pi_140099749
Ondanks dat er geen herdenking plaatsvond in het centrum van Simferopol, werd er een grote herdenking georganiseerd in de wijk Akmeet, zo'n 15 duizend Krim-Tataren waren aanwezig. De herdenking is vreedzaam verlopen.







Ook in Kiev werd de deportatie herdacht:

Sylesem, tesiri yok; sussam gnl razı değil
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