Nederland stemt tegen Goldstone rapport (israel)

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:07 schreef Disana het volgende:

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Slechts interessant om een reportage te maken?

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:12 schreef telavivnick het volgende:

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:13 schreef Disana het volgende:

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Geen waarheidsvinding dus, je knipt de rest weg alsof het nergens over gaat. Erg oppervlakkig van je.

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:21 schreef telavivnick het volgende:

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nee hoor .er word in mijn oogen niet veel bezet. niet meer dan de palies doen .ik zal het bij mijn vriend ratna eens na vragen . of zij er wat van afweet .

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:21 schreef telavivnick het volgende:

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nee hoor .er word in mijn oogen niet veel bezet. niet meer dan de palies doen .ik zal het bij mijn vriend ratna eens na vragen . of zij er wat van afweet .
en jij ben niet echt oppervlakkig .
bedankt in iedergeval ,next.

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:28 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

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Fijn dat je hier post Telavivnick. Dat is tenminste informatie van iemand die daadwerkelijk in Israël woont, de dagelijkse realiteit ondervindt. Dat is toch anders dan het theoretiseren wat we hier doen.
Nieuws uit de eerste hand

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:31 schreef Disana het volgende:

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Het jammere vind ik dat iemand anders serieus aandacht aan je vragen besteedt en je van informatie voorziet, maar dat jij in een nauw oppervlakkig straatje blijft reageren omdat je helemaal niet geïnformeerd wilt worden over zaken die niet in dat straatje passen. Doe niet net of je vragen stelt als je toch in de propaganda blijft steken want dan verspil je tijd van anderen.

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:28 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

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Fijn dat je hier post Telavivnick. Dat is tenminste informatie van iemand die daadwerkelijk in Israël woont, de dagelijkse realiteit ondervindt. Dat is toch anders dan het theoretiseren wat we hier doen.
Nieuws uit de eerste hand

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 18:52 schreef telavivnick het volgende:

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ik ben blij met jou vragen en waardeer ze ook . maar er zit veel links politiek tussen.en wat NIET op waarheden is gebaseerd ,maar op ideen en verdenkingen .
heb je het helen beeld dan reageer ook jij anders ,

er waren eens twee mensen van groen links ratna-pele en een medewerker hier bij mij op visiten .schatten van mensen .
ze hebben mij nog een dinner aangeboden in jerusalem . na hun dag tour.
ik heb hun rond geleid in de westbank . voor haar forum .het was de eersten keer dat zij daar waren.
ik heb nog een mooien foto van hun gemaakt , bij de jordan-valey
[ afbeelding ]
en zag groten verschillen van wat ze denken en horen . dan van het zien .op de plaats van waar het overgaat .en daar lig het verschil.

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 17:13 schreef Disana het volgende:

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Een zaakwaarneemster voor een organisatie waarvan ik de naam en het doel even kwijt ben vertelde over een watertransport door Israëli's naar de Westbank. Ze stuitten daar op bange grenswachten en andere soldaten die hen waarschuwden voor de agressieve Palestijnen; hen werd afgeraden de Westbank in te rijden.

Het watertransport is een particulier initiatief van Israëliërs die het niet eens zijn met het afknijpen van de Westbank. De regering keurt het af maar de tanks worden nog net niet tegengehouden.

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 19:08 schreef Disana het volgende:

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Ik zie dat theoretiseren niet? Er worden feiten gepost die je ook uit de media en rapporten kunt halen. Wat is je mening daarover dan?

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 19:17 schreef paddy het volgende:

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Heel leuk, die dingen van horen zeggen, maar lees het te vaak. Zou je toch eens met die bron van die onbekende bekende vrouw willen komen? Ik kan er werkelijk niets over vinden

Zo lijkt het mij wat propaganda.

Zie dus uit naar je bron

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 19:18 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

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Natuurlijk theoretiseren we hier. Over de dingen die we via de media en rapporten te horen te lezen en te zien krijgen.
Dus ik vind het fijn dat Televivnick hier post. Nieuws uit de eerste hand plus een kijkje in het leven van iemand die in Israël woont.

En on topic: Ik vind het terecht dat Nederland tegengestemd heeft. Het is een stem tegen de eenzijdige verantwoordelijkheid die bij Israël wordt neergelegd.

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 19:20 schreef Disana het volgende:

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Ik vind het vreemd als feiten als theorie afgedaan worden. Er staan genoeg feiten in dit topic die nagetrokken kunnen worden.

Het Goldstone rapport is nogmaals niet eenzijdig. De schuld wordt bij beide partijen gelegd.

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The UN Human Rights Council and its recent Goldstone Report are either biased or mistaken respectively in some of their fundamental accusations against Israel, according to the director of one of Israel's main rights groups.

Even so, "Israel has only itself to blame" for its failure to investigate the accusations of abuses during January's Operation Cast Lead that led to the report, according to B'Tselem executive director Jessica Montell.

"There's no question that the HRC, which mandated the Goldstone [fact-finding mission into the Gaza fighting], has an inappropriate, disproportionate fixation with Israel," she said, adding that the Council was "a political body made up of diplomats, not human rights experts, which means that the powerful states are never going to come under scrutiny the way the powerless will. So China, Russia and the US will never have commission of inquiry, regardless of how their crimes rank relative to Israeli crimes."

Furthermore, the Goldstone Report itself, which was presented in its final version to the Human Rights Council on Tuesday, is "disagreeable" and mistaken in some of its gravest accusations against Israel, she believes. These include the claim that Israel intentionally targeted the civilian population rather than Hamas, and the "weak, hesitant way that the report mentions Hamas's strategy of using civilians [in combat]."

But, she added, Israel could have avoided such a report had it conducted "a thorough investigation" of Cast Lead itself, something which B'Tselem continues to urge on Israel's leaders.

The report, she says, bears "the message of the new international legal system: Justice has to be done at home, or else. Israel has only itself to blame that it took the Human Rights Council to tell [Israel] what it should have done eight months ago."

"Before 2000, you had a Military Police investigation every time a Palestinian was killed," Montell related. "You could argue that the Palestinian's word may not have carried the same weight as the soldier's, but the fact that there was an investigation placed limits on [behavior] at roadblocks, etc."

With the outbreak of the Second Intifada, however, IDF and government lawyers "said the situation is now an armed conflict, and you don't have to open [so many] criminal investigations in an armed conflict. They'll [still] open an investigation on theft complaints or beatings at a checkpoint - things that have no operational connection. But when it comes to gunfire, there are no automatic investigations."

This is a mistake, Montell believes, since "the laws of war are laws. We are asking the IDF to investigate Cast Lead according to the laws of war."

Montell's call for an Israeli investigation is aimed at an Israeli audience, but reflects deep unease both in Israel and abroad over the report's conclusions.

Even the international magazine The Economist, which has stridently criticized Israeli actions in the West Bank and Gaza in the past, said the report's conclusions were unfairly critical of Israel.

"The report takes the very thing it is investigating as its central organising premise," the magazine opined just days after the mid-September publication of the report. "Israeli policy in Gaza, it argues, was deliberately and systematically to inflict suffering on civilians, rather than Hamas fighters. Israel's assertions that, in the difficult circumstances of densely populated Gaza, it planned its military operations carefully and with constant legal advice are taken by the report as evidence not of a concern to uphold international law but of a culpable determination to flout it."

Meanwhile, political commentators such as Tom Gross have blasted the Human Rights Council itself in the wake of the Goldstone report, saying the Council shows little concern for human rights abuses "unless they can blame them on Israel."

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 16:27 schreef ErwinRommel het volgende:
Goede zaak dat Nederland tegen gestemd heeft.
Enige wat Israel doet is zichzelf verdedigen tegen die Hamas en Hezbollah.

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Kortom, Israel staan in het recht terug te slaan indien dit nodig is. IDF staat immers niet voor niets voor Israeli Defence Forces.

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 19:15 schreef Chooselife het volgende:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1E2CCFF17EB6D84E&search_query=checkpoint+yoav+shamir

Geeft een goed beeld van wat zich dagelijks afspeelt op de Westbank en Gazastrook.

Ik heb de docu op dvd. Vrij zeldzaam.

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 19:21 schreef Chooselife het volgende:

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Volkomen onzin! Het rapport belicht ook de oorlogsmisdaden van Hamas. Deze staan alleen niet in verhouding ten aanzien van de gruweldaden van de Israëli.

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In the Gaza Strip people are returning home -- or to the rubble that was once their home. Many are blaming Hamas for the destruction because the militants hid among civilians and attracted Israeli fire. Yet no one dares to speak out openly.

What is left over when a person is hit by a tank shell. Blood, tissue, bone splinters, splatters on the wall.

And anger.

Mohammed Sadala's rage is aimed at the man, whose remains he found in his bedroom: a Hamas fighter. He and a comrade broke into the home which had long stood empty after the Sadala family fled. The Hamas men shot at the approaching Israelis from the balcony. The soldiers fired back, killing the militants and destroying the house of the 10-strong family in the process.

When Sadala came back to survey the scene he found his property in ruins: the younger children's bedroom was burnt out, while the living room and hallway were strewn with bullet holes and blackened by soot from the fire. In the bedroom lay the corpses: one had bled to death, the other was hit by a tank shell.

Beside the bodies lay the assault rifle which they had used to try to stop the tanks.

"I used to support Hamas because they fought for our country, for Palestine," says Sadala. Hamas stood for a new start, for an end of corruption, which had spread like cancer under the moderate Fatah. In the 2006 elections Hamas won the majority with their message of change, said Sadala, who earned a living in the building business. Gesticulating wildly, the 52-year-old surveyed the ruins of the bedroom: "That is the change that they brought about. We were blasted back 2,000 years."

Through the hole in the wall of his house, Sadala sees a landscape in gray and brown. This is where a neighbourhood had stood, his neighbourhood. Now there is a snake of sand around the bomb crater. It is impossible to tell where the streets once stood. Family houses have turned into piles of debris. People have built refuges using cloth and rubble. They stand alongside dead donkeys and sheep, whose stomachs swell up. No one here has time to remove rotting corpses.

The people from Beit Lahia are starting from zero again: children load wood from broken trees onto their back. Their mothers bend over fires and bake bread. Young women carry water in petrol canisters. Only the men stand around looking numb, smoking, staring blankly. Many people here, like Sandala, had placed their hopes in Hamas -- now they are gazing into nothing, ideologically as well as materially.

Everything Is Lost Now

And it is not just buildings that lie in rubble in the Gaza strip, it is the livelihoods of many thousands of people. In Arabic societies a home is usually everything a family possesses. Often several brothers build a house for the entire family. Living at close quarters has its advantages: when the costs of building the house are paid off, there is more money left over to feed the dozens of family members.

Everything is lost now.

"When Hamas came to power, they came to our aid with packages of groceries," says Abu Abed. The 60-year-old's sons, all of whom are trained hospital nurses, have been without work for years. That is true of many in the Gaza Strip. Now Abu Abed stands before the rumble of the house where he lived with four generations of his family. All that remains are the ground floor pillars. The Israeli navy had its eye on the building from the very beginning of the war. After all, its clear view of Gaza City and the sea would have provided a good base for Hamas.

"I've changed my mind about Hamas," Abu Abed says. "I can't support any party that wages a war that destroys our lives." He is particularly pained by the fact that Hamas is still selling the cease-fire as a victory.

"Who has won here?" he asks and points to the debris that was once his home.

One of his neighbors weighs in: "Many people are now against Hamas but that won't change anything," he says. "Because anyone who stands up to them is killed." Since they took power Hamas has used brutal force against any dissenters in the Gaza Strip. There were news agency reports that during the war they allegedly executed suspected collaborators with Israel. The reign of terror will go on for some time, says the neighbor who doesn't want to give his name. "There will never be a rebellion against Hamas. It would be suicide."

Others swallow their anger. Hail's house is just a few streets away and only suffered light damage. There are a few bullet holes in the living room walls and all of the window panes are broken. Hail also found out after the cease-fire that the militants had used his house as a base for their operations. The door to his house stood open and there were electric cables lying in the hallway. When Hail followed them they led to his neighbor's house which it seems Hamas had mined.

As Hail, in his mid-30s, sat on his porch and thought about what to do a man came by: He was from Hamas and had left something in Hail's home. He let him in and the man then emerged with a bullet proof vest, a rocket launcher and an ammunitions belt. An hour later a fighter with Islamic Jihad called to the door, then disappeared onto the roof and reappeared with a box of ammunition. "The abused civilians' homes for their own purposes. That is not right," Hail says with disgust while trying to remain polite.

In contrast to many of their neighbors the Sadala family is doing comparatively well. They have all survived and the house could theoretically still be repaired. Mohammed Sadala is of another opinion: "There is no way," he says. What happened in his bedroom cannot be covered up just by cleaning. The worst is that he now knows who died in the room. It was Bilal Haj Ali. Sadala knows this because the young mans brothers came to visit a few days ago. They wanted to see the place where Bilal became a martyr. "I did let them in but I hardly spoke a word with them," he says.

The young men took photos of the remains of their brother with their mobile phones. "But they didn't want to clean it up," Sadala says. "I told them not to show their faces here ever again."

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 19:20 schreef Chooselife het volgende:

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Heb jij 'm ook op de plank liggen? De documentaire Machssomim van Yoav Shamir?

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Op dinsdag 20 oktober 2009 19:09 schreef Disana het volgende:

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Sukses met het vinden van de watertransporten.