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Grafiek CIT
No Lifeline For CIT? (CIT)
CIT bailout
It sounds as though talks with private-sector saviors have turned to how those same banks can help CIT manage bankruptcy, rather than stave it off:
Bloomberg: CIT Group Inc. advisers, including JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Morgan Stanley, are discussing options for funding the lender if it enters bankruptcy, people with knowledge of the matter said.
JPMorgan and Morgan Stanley are talking with other banks about a debtor-in-possession loan, used to fund a company’s operations after it seeks court protection from creditors, according to the people, who declined to be identified because the negotiations are private. CIT and its advisers, including Morgan Stanley and Evercore Partners Inc., are also trying to arrange rescue financing to avert bankruptcy, they said.
CIT may need as much as $6 billion to avoid filing for bankruptcy protection after the U.S. wouldn’t give the firm a second bailout, according to CreditSights Inc. A failure of CIT, which has almost $76 billion in assets, would be the biggest bank collapse by that measure since regulators seized Washington Mutual Inc. in September.
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Yahoo Finance
CIT's small size relative to other big commercial banks may also ease worries of a ripple effect. Though a major lender to small and midsize U.S. business with about a million clients, CIT is one-eighth of the size of Lehman Brothers when massive credit losses forced the investment bank into bankruptcy last fall.
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Bulls, Bears & Bucks #60: Viva Obama
Uncertainties over CIT have already provoked a credit squeeze that threatens payments and payrolls in thousands of businesses. As this uncertainty persists, and if CIT is forced to undertake a bankruptcy filing, the ripple effect will be felt in every city and state across this country as the further tightening of credit markets will make it incredibly difficult, if not impossible, for many of the companies who currently rely on CIT for financing to remain in business. The number of jobs that depend on the successful outcome of the CIT crisis is immeasurable.
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Het zal wel wat vuurwerk opleveren op de beurs, en in de werkloosheidscijfers...
No Lifeline For CIT? (CIT)
CIT bailout
It sounds as though talks with private-sector saviors have turned to how those same banks can help CIT manage bankruptcy, rather than stave it off:
Bloomberg: CIT Group Inc. advisers, including JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Morgan Stanley, are discussing options for funding the lender if it enters bankruptcy, people with knowledge of the matter said.
JPMorgan and Morgan Stanley are talking with other banks about a debtor-in-possession loan, used to fund a company’s operations after it seeks court protection from creditors, according to the people, who declined to be identified because the negotiations are private. CIT and its advisers, including Morgan Stanley and Evercore Partners Inc., are also trying to arrange rescue financing to avert bankruptcy, they said.
CIT may need as much as $6 billion to avoid filing for bankruptcy protection after the U.S. wouldn’t give the firm a second bailout, according to CreditSights Inc. A failure of CIT, which has almost $76 billion in assets, would be the biggest bank collapse by that measure since regulators seized Washington Mutual Inc. in September.
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Yahoo Finance
CIT's small size relative to other big commercial banks may also ease worries of a ripple effect. Though a major lender to small and midsize U.S. business with about a million clients, CIT is one-eighth of the size of Lehman Brothers when massive credit losses forced the investment bank into bankruptcy last fall.
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Bulls, Bears & Bucks #60: Viva Obama
Uncertainties over CIT have already provoked a credit squeeze that threatens payments and payrolls in thousands of businesses. As this uncertainty persists, and if CIT is forced to undertake a bankruptcy filing, the ripple effect will be felt in every city and state across this country as the further tightening of credit markets will make it incredibly difficult, if not impossible, for many of the companies who currently rely on CIT for financing to remain in business. The number of jobs that depend on the successful outcome of the CIT crisis is immeasurable.
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Het zal wel wat vuurwerk opleveren op de beurs, en in de werkloosheidscijfers...
Oh, maar 6 miljard nodig, waar hebben we het over. Dat is peanuts voor ome Barack en Ben's Magical Money Machine.
---
And when the leaves fall the land looks more human
it's got me questioning the essence of my farm boy blues
hence, I never wore the fashions of the know-what-I'm-doin'
And when the leaves fall the land looks more human
it's got me questioning the essence of my farm boy blues
hence, I never wore the fashions of the know-what-I'm-doin'
Vraag jezelf eerder af wie allemaal een CDS side bet hebben geplaatst.quote:Op zondag 19 juli 2009 22:09 schreef Zero2Nine het volgende:
Oh, maar 6 miljard nodig, waar hebben we het over. Dat is peanuts voor ome Barack en Ben's Magical Money Machine.
And who is holding the bag.quote:US CREDIT-CIT caught as wide spreads restrict debt sales
Thu Jul 3, 2008 2:10am IST
By Karen Brettell
NEW YORK, July 2 (Reuters) - CIT Group Inc (CIT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) may be
caught in a Catch 22 situation as improvement in its credit
spreads may depend on the commercial lender showing it has
economical access to the unsecured debt market.
CIT's credit default swaps barely budged after the company
said on Tuesday it would sell $10 billion of mortgage assets in
a deal that removes problem loans from its balance sheet. For
details, see [ID:nBNG289741]
The cost to insure its debt with credit default swaps are
little changed at around 742.5 basis points on Wednesday, or
$742,500 per year for five years to insure $10 million in debt,
according to Markit Intraday.
"The funding outlook remains cloudy as credit default swap
spreads imply the company remains largely shut off from
economical unsecured options," CreditSights analysts Richard
Hofmann and Adam Steer said in a report on Wednesday.
CIT has traditionally relied on unsecured debt, commercial
paper and asset securitizations to finance its operations.
CIT's spreads soared past 1,000 basis points in March when
it said it drew on its entire $7.3 billion in bank lines after
it was unable to refinance maturing commercial paper.
Meanwhile, market appetite for securitized assets has also
dried up.
Management at CIT have said they want to sell new unsecured
debt, though Chief Executive Jeff Peek said on Wednesday the
company does not believe it needs to raise additional capital
in the near term.
Based on credit default swap levels, a new 5-year bond sale
by CIT would price at a yield of around 11.65 percent, the
CreditSights analysts said.
"At a recent conference the company hinted that it is
targeting around an 8 percent handle for a new unsecured issue,
and CDS levels imply that the company would still be
significantly challenged to get a deal done at those levels,"
they said.
Moody's Investors Service and Standard & Poor's both said
on Tuesday that CIT's access to the unsecured market is key to
its ratings, and Moody's said economical access is critical to
its long-term liquidity.
"The 'Baa1' rating anticipates that CIT will have adequate
liquidity to support a transition of its funding to include
regular unsecured debt issuance," Moody's said in a statement.
The ratings agency added that the sale of the home lending
business "will allow CIT to put the mortgage issues behind
them, which could ultimately ease their access to the unsecured
debt markets."
Moody's rates CIT's unsecured debt "Baa1," the third lowest
investment grade, and has it on review for downgrade. S&P rates
the debt one notch higher at "A-minus," with a negative
outlook, indicating a downgrade is more likely over the next
one to two years.
"We could revise the outlook back to stable if CIT can
access the unsecured or secured debt markets at economically
attractive rates while maintaining adequate asset quality and
capitalization," S&P said.
Bank of America analysts believe the company needs access
to the unsecured debt markets even at a higher cost to fund its
operations.
"Reestablishing access to the unsecured markets at this
point is more important than the pricing, as the company needs
access to continue to operate its business model," analysts
John Guarnera and Bryan Cook said in a report.
"Company management had been vocal about wanting CIT to
return to the unsecured market, and it may have now missed the
best opportunity to do so," they added.
And while removing the mortgage exposures may take out some
of the company's future earnings volatility, it still has
commercial loan exposures, which could weaken in a slowing
economy, CreditSights said.
"Credit quality in the core commercial loan book remains a
key watchpoint as CIT's highly leveraged small to mid-size
clients could be disproportionately impacted by a potential
recession in our view," they said.
Ben benieuwd..... had wel zoiets verwacht. Maar 3 milj ff schatten...... over 3 mnd moeten ze weer gered worden. Ik denk dat de belangrijke assets ergens anders ondergebracht worden en een lege doos overblijft.quote:Op zondag 19 juli 2009 23:08 schreef Westlander het volgende:
WSJ: CIT strikes deal with bondholders for $3 billion in financing to avoid bankruptcy.
wsj.com
CIT clinches deal to stave off bankruptcy
Blijkbaar zijn ze gered... Ben benieuwd hoe lang ze dat vol houden. Als zij inderdaad de grootste leenbank zijn, is 3miljard echt niet genoeg.
Blijkbaar zijn ze gered... Ben benieuwd hoe lang ze dat vol houden. Als zij inderdaad de grootste leenbank zijn, is 3miljard echt niet genoeg.
Ja, dit lijkt me ook geen langdurige oplossing.quote:Op maandag 20 juli 2009 06:44 schreef RvLaak het volgende:
CIT clinches deal to stave off bankruptcy
Blijkbaar zijn ze gered... Ben benieuwd hoe lang ze dat vol houden. Als zij inderdaad de grootste leenbank zijn, is 3miljard echt niet genoeg.
President Camacho
TV series: Boardwalk Empire | Burn Notice | Dexter | Game of Thrones | Impractical Jokers | Luther | Sherlock | Sons of Anarchy
TV series: Boardwalk Empire | Burn Notice | Dexter | Game of Thrones | Impractical Jokers | Luther | Sherlock | Sons of Anarchy
Escaping from a liquidity trap may be impossible, much like light trapped in a black hole.
Op zaterdag 19 november 2011 13:27 schreef Perrin het volgende: En net als van voetbal, heeft iedereen verstand van macro-economie
Op zaterdag 19 november 2011 13:27 schreef Perrin het volgende: En net als van voetbal, heeft iedereen verstand van macro-economie
http://www.schaeffersrese(...)otes.aspx?Ticker=CIT
Er is daar iets aan het rommelen.
Er is daar iets aan het rommelen.
We zijn nu exact 3 mnd verder........ ghe..quote:Op zondag 19 juli 2009 23:37 schreef Drugshond het volgende:
Ben benieuwd..... had wel zoiets verwacht. Maar 3 milj ff schatten...... over 3 mnd moeten ze weer gered worden. Ik denk dat de belangrijke assets ergens anders ondergebracht worden en een lege doos overblijft.
hang on there.
CIT Said to Be in Talks to Amend $29 Billion Swap
Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) -- CIT Group Inc., the 101-year-old commercial lender seeking to avoid collapse, is in talks with some bondholders to amend terms of its $29 billion debt exchange, according to people familiar with the matter.
The talks come less than a week after Moody’s Investors Service said New York-based CIT may need to liquidate if too few investors agree to either the swap or a prepackaged bankruptcy. Credit rating firm Egan-Jones Ratings Co. recommends bondholders reject the offer, which was unveiled Oct. 1 and expires in two weeks. CIT said two days ago that Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Jeffrey Peek plans to resign at yearend.
Changes may also be made to the prepackaged-bankruptcy plan that investors were asked to approve if the debt swap doesn’t work, said one of the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private.
“Given our expectation for the exchange to fail, they would have to amend it to avoid bankruptcy,” Adam Steer, an analyst at CreditSights Inc. in New York said yesterday.
Curt Ritter, a CIT spokesman, declined to comment. CIT is seeking to reduce debt by at least $5.7 billion after being locked out of the unsecured debt markets it relies on for funding and posting nine quarters of losses totaling more than $5 billion.
Restructuring Plans
Under the out-of-court restructuring, bondholders will receive 70 cents to 90 cents on the dollar in the form of new debt, plus 94 percent of the equity in the company, CIT said Oct. 2 in a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
With the prepackaged bankruptcy plan, bondholders would receive 70 cents on the dollar in the form of new 7 percent notes, plus 83.4 percent of equity in the reorganized company, according to an Oct. 8 report from CRT Capital Group LLC in Stamford, Connecticut. This excludes most unsecured notes maturing after 2018, which are left in place, CRT said.
The exchange offer expires at 11:59 p.m. on Oct. 29, according to the filing.
CIT shares rose 12 cents, or 11.3 percent, to $1.18 on the New York Stock Exchange. The shares, which traded as high as $61.36 in February 2007, have dropped 74 percent this year.
Bond prices for CIT show that investors increasingly expect the company will be forced to file for bankruptcy as part of any restructuring.
‘Little Hope’
While CIT’s $500 million of 4.125 percent notes due Nov. 3 rose 0.5 cent to 70 cents on the dollar today, they have fallen 10 cents since the exchange was announced, according to Trace, the bond-price reporting system of the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority.
“After digging through the details of the exchange offer and subsequent liquidity plans, we believe CIT’s plan has very little hope of succeeding,” CreditSights analysts Steer, David Hendler and Jesse Rosenthal wrote in an Oct. 4 report.
CIT may receive a loan of as much as $6 billion from bondholders that helped provide $3 billion of rescue financing in July, one of the people said. The funds are intended to finance a prepackaged bankruptcy if the out-of-court exchange fails to gain enough support, another person familiar with the matter said this month.
CIT, which has $42.8 billion in bonds and loans outstanding, funds about 1 million businesses from Dunkin’ Brands Inc. in Canton, Massachusetts, to Eddie Bauer Holdings Inc., the bankrupt clothing chain in Bellevue, Washington. The company says it’s the third-largest U.S. railcar-leasing firm and the world’s third-biggest aircraft financier.
Pimco, Baupost
A collapse would ripple across the “small and medium-sized businesses who rely on the finance company to operate -- to pay their vendors, ship goods to their customers and make their payroll,” CIT said in internal documents obtained by Bloomberg News in July that make the case for its importance to the U.S. economy.
Peek turned to the group of six debt holders after failing to win access to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.’s Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program, which backs bonds from financial companies.
Pacific Investment Management Co. and Baupost Group LLC resigned more than a month ago from a steering committee that had to approve the restructuring plan. The remaining creditors on the committee are Centerbridge Partners LP, Oaktree Capital Management LLC, Capital Research & Management Co. and Silver Point Capital LP.
The lender may be unable to create a “long-term, viable” source of funding even if the debt swap succeeds, Moody’s said in its Oct. 8 report.
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Klinkt herkenbaar zeker nu...... De waarschuwingen liepen in dit geval ver vooruit.
Life-line......... hard to believe.
CIT Said to Be in Talks to Amend $29 Billion Swap
Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) -- CIT Group Inc., the 101-year-old commercial lender seeking to avoid collapse, is in talks with some bondholders to amend terms of its $29 billion debt exchange, according to people familiar with the matter.
The talks come less than a week after Moody’s Investors Service said New York-based CIT may need to liquidate if too few investors agree to either the swap or a prepackaged bankruptcy. Credit rating firm Egan-Jones Ratings Co. recommends bondholders reject the offer, which was unveiled Oct. 1 and expires in two weeks. CIT said two days ago that Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Jeffrey Peek plans to resign at yearend.
Changes may also be made to the prepackaged-bankruptcy plan that investors were asked to approve if the debt swap doesn’t work, said one of the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private.
“Given our expectation for the exchange to fail, they would have to amend it to avoid bankruptcy,” Adam Steer, an analyst at CreditSights Inc. in New York said yesterday.
Curt Ritter, a CIT spokesman, declined to comment. CIT is seeking to reduce debt by at least $5.7 billion after being locked out of the unsecured debt markets it relies on for funding and posting nine quarters of losses totaling more than $5 billion.
Restructuring Plans
Under the out-of-court restructuring, bondholders will receive 70 cents to 90 cents on the dollar in the form of new debt, plus 94 percent of the equity in the company, CIT said Oct. 2 in a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
With the prepackaged bankruptcy plan, bondholders would receive 70 cents on the dollar in the form of new 7 percent notes, plus 83.4 percent of equity in the reorganized company, according to an Oct. 8 report from CRT Capital Group LLC in Stamford, Connecticut. This excludes most unsecured notes maturing after 2018, which are left in place, CRT said.
The exchange offer expires at 11:59 p.m. on Oct. 29, according to the filing.
CIT shares rose 12 cents, or 11.3 percent, to $1.18 on the New York Stock Exchange. The shares, which traded as high as $61.36 in February 2007, have dropped 74 percent this year.
Bond prices for CIT show that investors increasingly expect the company will be forced to file for bankruptcy as part of any restructuring.
‘Little Hope’
While CIT’s $500 million of 4.125 percent notes due Nov. 3 rose 0.5 cent to 70 cents on the dollar today, they have fallen 10 cents since the exchange was announced, according to Trace, the bond-price reporting system of the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority.
“After digging through the details of the exchange offer and subsequent liquidity plans, we believe CIT’s plan has very little hope of succeeding,” CreditSights analysts Steer, David Hendler and Jesse Rosenthal wrote in an Oct. 4 report.
CIT may receive a loan of as much as $6 billion from bondholders that helped provide $3 billion of rescue financing in July, one of the people said. The funds are intended to finance a prepackaged bankruptcy if the out-of-court exchange fails to gain enough support, another person familiar with the matter said this month.
CIT, which has $42.8 billion in bonds and loans outstanding, funds about 1 million businesses from Dunkin’ Brands Inc. in Canton, Massachusetts, to Eddie Bauer Holdings Inc., the bankrupt clothing chain in Bellevue, Washington. The company says it’s the third-largest U.S. railcar-leasing firm and the world’s third-biggest aircraft financier.
Pimco, Baupost
A collapse would ripple across the “small and medium-sized businesses who rely on the finance company to operate -- to pay their vendors, ship goods to their customers and make their payroll,” CIT said in internal documents obtained by Bloomberg News in July that make the case for its importance to the U.S. economy.
Peek turned to the group of six debt holders after failing to win access to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.’s Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program, which backs bonds from financial companies.
Pacific Investment Management Co. and Baupost Group LLC resigned more than a month ago from a steering committee that had to approve the restructuring plan. The remaining creditors on the committee are Centerbridge Partners LP, Oaktree Capital Management LLC, Capital Research & Management Co. and Silver Point Capital LP.
The lender may be unable to create a “long-term, viable” source of funding even if the debt swap succeeds, Moody’s said in its Oct. 8 report.
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Klinkt herkenbaar zeker nu...... De waarschuwingen liepen in dit geval ver vooruit.
Life-line......... hard to believe.
CIT amends restructuring plan with bondholders
Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:46am EDT
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1 of 1Full SizeMarket News
Stock futures signal rebound along with commods World stocks rally, recover from earnings let-down Earnings blitz to test market's mettle More Business & Investing News... CHICAGO (Reuters) - Commercial finance company CIT Group Inc and a group representing its bondholders have agreed on changes to the company's proposed restructuring plan as it looks shore up its finances.
The changes, announced by CIT late Friday, include a mechanism to accelerate the repayment of new notes; the shortening of maturities by six months for all new notes and junior credit facilities; and offering more equity to subordinated debt holders.
The changes would include notes maturing after 2018 in the company's exchange offer and increase the interest paid on Series B notes being offered by CIT Delaware Funding to 9 percent from 7 percent. They would also provide preferred stockholders contingent value rights in the reorganization and modify the allocation of common stock in the company's recapitalization after the exchange offers, as part of an agreement with the Treasury Department.
On October 1, CIT, founded more than a century ago, launched a debt-exchange plan as it looks to cut its debt by at least $5.7 billion.
The company, which is one of the largest lenders to small and mid-sized companies, also asked bondholders to approve a prepackaged plan of reorganization that would allow it to initiate a voluntary filing under Chapter 11 if the debt exchange failed.
CIT said on Friday that completion of either the debt exchange or a bankruptcy filing would generate significant capital and improve the company's liquidity.
The exchange offer expires at 11:59 p.m. EST on October 29
Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:46am EDT
Email | Print | Share| Reprints | Single Page[-] Text [+]
1 of 1Full SizeMarket News
Stock futures signal rebound along with commods World stocks rally, recover from earnings let-down Earnings blitz to test market's mettle More Business & Investing News... CHICAGO (Reuters) - Commercial finance company CIT Group Inc and a group representing its bondholders have agreed on changes to the company's proposed restructuring plan as it looks shore up its finances.
The changes, announced by CIT late Friday, include a mechanism to accelerate the repayment of new notes; the shortening of maturities by six months for all new notes and junior credit facilities; and offering more equity to subordinated debt holders.
The changes would include notes maturing after 2018 in the company's exchange offer and increase the interest paid on Series B notes being offered by CIT Delaware Funding to 9 percent from 7 percent. They would also provide preferred stockholders contingent value rights in the reorganization and modify the allocation of common stock in the company's recapitalization after the exchange offers, as part of an agreement with the Treasury Department.
On October 1, CIT, founded more than a century ago, launched a debt-exchange plan as it looks to cut its debt by at least $5.7 billion.
The company, which is one of the largest lenders to small and mid-sized companies, also asked bondholders to approve a prepackaged plan of reorganization that would allow it to initiate a voluntary filing under Chapter 11 if the debt exchange failed.
CIT said on Friday that completion of either the debt exchange or a bankruptcy filing would generate significant capital and improve the company's liquidity.
The exchange offer expires at 11:59 p.m. EST on October 29
Escaping from a liquidity trap may be impossible, much like light trapped in a black hole.
Op zaterdag 19 november 2011 13:27 schreef Perrin het volgende: En net als van voetbal, heeft iedereen verstand van macro-economie
Op zaterdag 19 november 2011 13:27 schreef Perrin het volgende: En net als van voetbal, heeft iedereen verstand van macro-economie
Escaping from a liquidity trap may be impossible, much like light trapped in a black hole.
Op zaterdag 19 november 2011 13:27 schreef Perrin het volgende: En net als van voetbal, heeft iedereen verstand van macro-economie
Op zaterdag 19 november 2011 13:27 schreef Perrin het volgende: En net als van voetbal, heeft iedereen verstand van macro-economie
CIT (Total assets US$ 80.44 billion (2008))
CIT’s Deals With Icahn, Goldman Pave Way for Quicker Bankruptcy
CIT’s Deals With Icahn, Goldman Pave Way for Quicker Bankruptcy
Geen black swan, maar wel weer een deuk in het vertrouwen van de fin. sector.quote:In exchange, Goldman Sachs received $285 million in termination fees, CIT said today in a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Under the terms of the two companies’ original agreement, Goldman Sachs would have been due a $1 billion termination payment to close the credit line after a CIT bankruptcy.
The agreements should make the bankruptcy process easier, Michael Taiano, an analyst at Sandler O’Neill & Partners LP said in a telephone interview.
“They’re effectively in control and there’s not really a bankruptcy judge that has to approve everything,” he said. “It creates less disruption to the business because you’re in bankruptcy a shorter period of time.”
CIT gisteren 24% eraf en nabeurs nog eens 11%.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=Cit
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=Cit
Escaping from a liquidity trap may be impossible, much like light trapped in a black hole.
Op zaterdag 19 november 2011 13:27 schreef Perrin het volgende: En net als van voetbal, heeft iedereen verstand van macro-economie
Op zaterdag 19 november 2011 13:27 schreef Perrin het volgende: En net als van voetbal, heeft iedereen verstand van macro-economie
Het gaat wat netter. CIT heet net een chapter 11 aangevraagd. Ze gaan hun schulden 'herstructureren'.
http://money.cnn.com/2009(...)stversion=2009110116
http://money.cnn.com/2009(...)stversion=2009110116
--------------------------------------------quote:CIT Group vraagt faillissement aan
maandag 02 november 2009 | 08:07
Tekstgrootte tekst verkleinentekst vergroten
NEW YORK (ANP) - De Amerikaanse kredietverstrekker CIT Group heeft faillissement aangevraagd. De onderneming, een van de grootste geldverstrekkers aan kleine bedrijven, verkeerde al langer in de problemen.
Het faillissement van CIT Group is het op vier na grootste bankroet in de Amerikaanse geschiedenis na Lehman Brothers, Washington Mutual, WorldCom en General Motors.
CIT dreigde afgelopen zomer al om te vallen toen de Amerikaanse overheid weigerde het concern te hulp te schieten met een financiële injectie. Begin oktober lanceerde CIT een herstructureringsplan, waarbij schuldeisers hun obligaties zouden omwisselen in aandelen. Ook dat plan viel in duigen.
CIT Group kwam in de financiële problemen door het instorten van de Amerikaanse hypotheekmarkt
Heeft toch langer geduurd dan ik had verwacht. Maar de uitkomst stond al vast. Nu de fall-out nog.
Who's holding the bag.... bekend spelletje inmiddels.quote:Op zondag 1 november 2009 00:43 schreef LXIV het volgende:
Lehmann-taferelen als het klapt?
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