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  maandag 22 januari 2007 @ 15:28:31 #41
3542 Gia
User under construction
pi_45580858
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 14:28 schreef Super7fighter het volgende:
Deze jongen is een held en verdient een lintje.
Uit zo'n opmerking blijkt maar weer eens hoe achterlijk sommige lui zijn. Of het nu aan het geloof ligt of aan het missen van een gen. Het blijft achterlijk.
  maandag 22 januari 2007 @ 15:35:19 #42
61646 Copycat
I am a trigger hippie
pi_45581062
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 14:28 schreef Super7fighter het volgende:
Deze jongen is een held en verdient een lintje.
Leg eens uit?
Curiosity cultured the cat
Hoge dames vangen veel wind
Whadda ya hear! Whadda ya say!
What is any ocean but a multitude of drops?
pi_45581690
quote:
Op zondag 21 januari 2007 15:34 schreef Floripas het volgende:
Van welke groepering maakt de verdachte eigenlijk deel uit?
Vooral van de groep domme jongeren die zich makkelijk laten brainwashen.

Je kunt dit het duidelijkste zien aan het simpele feit dat hij een citaat aanhaalt dat precies in het straatje van de ratten die hem hebben aangespoord tot deze moord, én precies het tegenovergestelde is van wat Hrant Dink heeft gezegd.
pi_45581702
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 14:28 schreef Super7fighter het volgende:
Deze jongen is een held en verdient een lintje.
En jij verdient een aangifte bij de politie.
  maandag 22 januari 2007 @ 16:17:02 #45
126836 Super7fighter
Obedience brings victory.
pi_45582347
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 15:56 schreef HiZ het volgende:

[..]

En jij verdient een aangifte bij de politie.
Wat lul je?
We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defence of our great nation.
  maandag 22 januari 2007 @ 16:21:56 #46
126836 Super7fighter
Obedience brings victory.
pi_45582538
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 15:35 schreef Copycat het volgende:

[..]

Leg eens uit?
Deze Hrant Dink was overduidelijk bezig om een burgeroorlog en rassenoorlog in Turkije te beginnen ( "het bloed van Turken is smerig"). Aangezien de Turkse justitie hem ongestraft zijn gang liet gaan, is het in deze jonge man opgekomen om hem voortijdig af te stompen. Een beetje zware straf die hij hem gaf, maar dat was ook het geval bij Theo van Gogh. Ook daar faalde justitie om de desbetreffende oorlogsstoker en haatzaaier aan te pakken, waardoor een slachtoffer van zijn propaganda het heft in eigen nam en hem onthoofdde.
We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defence of our great nation.
  maandag 22 januari 2007 @ 16:23:52 #47
126836 Super7fighter
Obedience brings victory.
pi_45582620
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 15:28 schreef Gia het volgende:

[..]

Uit zo'n opmerking blijkt maar weer eens hoe achterlijk sommige lui zijn. Of het nu aan het geloof ligt of aan het missen van een gen. Het blijft achterlijk.
Zegt een gelegenheidschristen die om de haverklap buiten haar huisje pist voor vertier en lust.
We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defence of our great nation.
  maandag 22 januari 2007 @ 16:31:19 #48
119507 Demarest
Mission Phailed
pi_45582887
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 14:28 schreef Super7fighter het volgende:
Deze jongen is een held en verdient een lintje.
Dus je bent voor stalinisme?
Onopvallend doch zeer scherpzinnig...
pi_45582954
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 16:21 schreef Super7fighter het volgende:

[..]

Deze Hrant Dink was overduidelijk bezig om een burgeroorlog en rassenoorlog in Turkije te beginnen ( "het bloed van Turken is smerig").
Gefeliciteerd, je bent officieel incompetent.
Zelden schryf ik wat ik wil, en nooit wat 'n ander wil.
pi_45582985
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 16:31 schreef Demarest het volgende:

[..]

Dus je bent voor stalinisme?
Nee, want dat is ongetwijfeld een vrucht van Darwinisme .
Zelden schryf ik wat ik wil, en nooit wat 'n ander wil.
  maandag 22 januari 2007 @ 17:01:52 #51
126836 Super7fighter
Obedience brings victory.
pi_45583942
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 16:33 schreef Apropos het volgende:

[..]

Gefeliciteerd, je bent officieel incompetent.
Ik voel me niet bedreigd door de opmars van de islam. Dat er veel Moslims zijn, is algemeen bekend. Dat er veel bijkomen door bekering en groei is ook algemeen bekend. Dat de meeste Islamtische landen arm, onderontwikkeld en weining slagkracht hebben is ook bekend. Ik zie dus niet in waarom we ons zorgen zouden moeten maken. Ik maak me meer zorgen om christenfundamentalisme in Amerika.
We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defence of our great nation.
pi_45584046
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 17:01 schreef Super7fighter het volgende:

[..]

Ik voel me niet bedreigd door de opmars van de islam. Dat er veel Moslims zijn, is algemeen bekend. Dat er veel bijkomen door bekering en groei is ook algemeen bekend. Dat de meeste Islamtische landen arm, onderontwikkeld en weining slagkracht hebben is ook bekend. Ik zie dus niet in waarom we ons zorgen zouden moeten maken. Ik maak me meer zorgen om christenfundamentalisme in Amerika.
Maar je legt Dink nog altijd op schandalige woorden in de mond, hoeveel abortusartsen er ook aangaan.
Zelden schryf ik wat ik wil, en nooit wat 'n ander wil.
pi_45585869
Komt er op neer dat hij niet vermoord mocht worden om zijn mening. Iedereen heeft het recht zijn mening te uiten. Wel is er ook een bepaalde verantwoordelijkheid die dit met zich meebrengt en moet je je grenzen kennen. Toch in welke situatie dan ook zal een moord niets rechtvaardigen bij zulke dingen. Deze jongen heeft juist de andere kant de kaarten in de hand gespeeld.

Het verleden is het verleden. We moeten er van leren, maar we moeten ook door. Eeuwig in haat en nijd leven is niet een goede optie. We kunnen liever als Armenen en Turken elkaar een hand in de boezem steken en er voor zorgen dat we vrede hebben en 'understanding' en natuurlijk ook samenwerking.
In fact, recent observations and simulations have suggested that a network of cosmic strings stretches across the entire universe.
  dinsdag 23 januari 2007 @ 07:14:47 #54
3542 Gia
User under construction
pi_45587138
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 16:23 schreef Super7fighter het volgende:

[..]

Zegt een gelegenheidschristen die om de haverklap buiten haar huisje pist voor vertier en lust.
Hahaha, wat ben je grappig. En impotent!
pi_45603514
interview met dink en een interessant artikel
quote:
Hrant Dink: forging an Armenian identity in Turkey
Üstün Bilgen-Reinart
7 - 2 - 2006
The Armenian-Turkish journalist is deeply hurt by a recent court sentence but he remains hopeful about Turkey's future, reports Üstün Bilgen-Reinart.
------------------------------------------



On 8 October 2005, a court in Şişli, Istanbul sentenced Hrant Dink, the editor-in-chief of Agos, the Armenian newspaper in Turkey, to six months in prison (suspended for good behaviour), for having written an article that "insulted and belittled Turkishness". He still faces charges for remarks he made at a conference in Urfa, southeastern Turkey in December 2002; and in December 2005 another suit was opened against him and two Agos colleagues by the Turkish Union of Lawyers. These two additional cases carry possible sentences of six years and four-and-a-half years respectively; the first comes to court on Thursday 9 February 2006.

Hrant Dink was devastated by the October conviction. "I was found guilty of racism!" he says. "How can this be? All my life I have struggled against ethnic discrimination and racism. I would never belittle Turkishness or Armenianness. I wouldn't allow anyone else to do it, either."

If the court of appeal does not overturn the ruling, Dink says he will leave Turkey, "my country of three thousand years."

"In my article, I was talking about the Armenian identity", Dink explains in an interview at Agos's office in Istanbul's bustling commercial neighbourhood of Osmanbey. "It's not my job to criticise the Turkish identity – that's up to the Turks."

"I've come up from the ranks of the left in this country", he says. "I know what you can and cannot do here. I have shared all the pain inflicted on the left since the 1970s. I thought I knew this country well, but this ruling took me by surprise."

It is ironic that Dink got into trouble for suggesting to diaspora Armenians that it was time to rid themselves of their rage against the Turks. "Armenians, especially of the diaspora, tend to have a problem associated with the role of other that the Turk has played in forming the Armenian identity", Dink says. "There is a certain history. A trauma. The Turk has become such a source of pain that it "poisons the Armenian blood", as the Anatolian saying goes. In my article, I was addressing the Armenian world and saying: "There are two ways of getting rid of this poison. One way is for the Turks to empathise with you, and take action to reduce your trauma. At the moment this seems unlikely. The second way is for you to rid yourself of it yourself. Turn your attention towards the state of Armenia and replace the poisoned blood associated with the Turk, with fresh blood associated with Armenia.'

It was the reference to "poisoned blood associated with the Turk" that got Dink in court.

The legacy of 1915

The "trauma" he refers to goes back ninety years, to the convulsions of the first world war and the dying days of the Ottoman empire.

Once a mighty empire spanning three continents, the Ottomans faced staggering losses during the late 19th century. In 1911, Ottoman territories in north Africa were lost to the Italians. In 1913, the Balkan wars ended with defeat, and as Bulgarians and Serbs won their independence, close to 5 million impoverished and bitter Muslim Turks fled from southeastern Europe to seek refuge in Anatolia. Then the "great war" that was to convulse Europe broke. European empires were shaken to the core, while uprisings shook the Ottoman empire.

In eastern Anatolia, some Armenian nationalists took up arms for independence and joined the invading Russian army. The hardline leaders of the Committee of Union and Progress in the Ottoman government – known as "Young Turks " – were all from Balkan stock. They felt betrayed by the non-Muslim peoples of the empire. They promised the remaining lands would not become a second 'Macedonia' as they called the bulk of the Balkans (see Dogu Ergil, Ottoman Armenians During the Collapse of the Empire). They decided to rid Anatolia of its Armenian population.

In 1915, the majority of Anatolia's 2 million Armenians were deported to Syria and Mesopotamia. Hundreds of thousands (the highest estimate is 1.5 million) died or were killed in the process.

The strength of diversity

Today, as Turkey starts accession talks with the European Union, the country is under pressure to recognise those deaths as "genocide." Turkey refuses the term. In fact, the subject has long been taboo in Turkey. A crucial event in overcoming the silence occurred in September 2005, when the first conference discussing "Ottoman Armenians During the Decline of the Empire: Issues of Scientific Responsibility and Democracy" was held – amidst a storm of controversy – at Bilgi University in Istanbul.

Hrant Dink says the fact that he lives in Turkey, with the Turks, has kept him emotionally healthy and free of the "disease that afflicts many diaspora Armenians." But he also knows something about discrimination.

"As a child, I didn't know what it meant to be Turkish or Armenian. At Armenian boarding school in Istanbul, I recited the Turkish credo every morning, but I was also told I should preserve my Armenian identity. I never came across my own name in school books – only Turkish names. As an adolescent, I heard the word 'Armenian' used as a swearword. As a Turkish citizen, I saw high-court decisions that referred to Armenians as 'foreigners living in Turkey'. The Armenian orphanage that I worked so hard to establish was confiscated by the state."

Dink says no one at home or at school ever spoke about the events of 1915, but throughout his childhood, he sensed loss and trauma through an internalised feeling of history. "We all have an intuition about something broken in the past", he says. "It's in our genetic code. Each Armenian family has losses that go back to the time when survivors were scattered all over the world. "

"Even if you flee from that sense of history", he adds, "history doesn't let go of you. In Turkey, you face so many attacks against the Armenian identity that you find yourself in a defensive position whether you want it or not. During the 1970s, there was news of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (Asala) and the killing of Turkish diplomats. My identity was always other, and often belittled. I saw again and again that I was different. Many people who were like me were leaving this country, but I didn't want to leave – I wanted to stay and fight for what I thought was right."

"In the end, I decided that how they defined me wasn't important. I had to define myself. I am an Armenian of Turkey, and a good Turkish citizen. I believe in the republic, in fact I would like it to become stronger and more democratic. I don't want my country to be divided, but I want all the citizens to be able to live fully and contribute their diversity to this society – as a source of richness."

Despite the October court sentence – one "that has done me great harm", he says – Dink is surprisingly optimistic about Turkey's future. "Turkey is going through a process of internal dynamism," he says. "It is experiencing the interaction of the east and the west within itself. This interaction can lead sometimes to confrontation and sometimes to agreement, but if it results in a kind of harmony, that would be a positive outcome."

Far from viewing Turkey's moderate Islamist government as a threat, Dink sees it as a potential instrument of harmony. "No authoritarian pressure has been able to suppress religious movements in this country. We see today that in power they seem less radical than they were in previous years; that they tend to tame themselves in order to remain on the political stage. They're satisfied with the freedom to perform their religious rituals. In this country, Islam will renew and reform itself, without harming either the republic or secularism; and when this happens, it will set an incredible example for Europe and the world. It will show the world that the east can renew and reform itself – without the intervention of outsiders like Bush with his bombs in Iraq. The transformation that will result from Turkey's own internal dynamics will set a great example of the interaction, reconciliation and harmony of the east and the west."

"You must find it surprising that I'm so hopeful", Dink smiles. But when asked about the appeal of his sentence, his face darkens. "If the high court does not exonerate me", he says, "The only honourable option for me is to leave. If I am judged guilty of racism, I can no longer live with the Turks. I cannot bear to think that people who meet me on the street might think: 'This is the guy who said the Turks have poisoned blood.'"
dink heeft nooit gezegd dat turkse bloed smerig is, dat heeft die rechter die hem veroordeelde gemaakt van zijn kritiek op de diaspora armeniers, het gif was trouwens weer te zien hier in de straten van den haag, zag namelijk een kleine stoet met de banner: armeense genocide: wannneer houdt het op?
quote:
Murder of outspoken journalist tests Turkey's democratic gains
The fatal shooting of Hrant Dink Friday may signal a violent turn for resurgent Turkish nationalism.
By Yigal Schleifer | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

ISTANBUL, TURKEY - The murder Friday of a prominent and outspoken Armenian journalist has sent shock waves throughout Turkey and raised questions about whether a recent nationalist upsurge in the country has taken a violent turn. It also presents the government with what many say is a serious challenge to its already embattled democratization and reform efforts.

The journalist, Hrant Dink, was a vocal critic of Turkey's treatment of its religious minorities and had been particularly outspoken against the government's policy of rejecting claims that the mass killings of Armenians by the Ottoman Turks in 1915 was genocide. He was shot in broad daylight just outside the offices of the bilingual Turkish-Armenian newspaper Agos, where he served as editor.

"A bullet has been fired at democracy and freedom of expression. I condemn the traitorous hands behind this disgraceful murder," Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on television soon after Mr. Dink was murdered. "This was an attack on our peace and stability."

The past few years have seen Turkey engaged in a deep internal struggle. On the one hand, the country's drive toward European Union (EU) membership has resulted in significant political reforms, particularly regarding democratization and human rights, and the freeing up of the debate on what had previously been taboo subjects, such as the Armenian question.

On the other hand, the EU-related reforms have been met with a strong nationalist backlash.

Nationalist lawyers and prosecutors, for example, have been able to use a law, known as Article 301, to charge writers and journalists like Dink and Nobel Laureate Orhan Pamuk with the crime of insulting Turkish identity as a way of stifling the emerging debates and putting the brakes on Turkey's EU bid.

Dink was tried under this article, and in 2005 was convicted and handed a suspended six-month prison sentence.

"In a sense, both sides have been sharpening their axes, thinking that the EU question is the final intellectual battle in Turkey," says Ali Carkoglu, a professor of political science at Istanbul's Sabanci University. "It touches on everything that is salient in Turkish politics: the Islam versus secularism debate, democratization, and the extent to which individual human rights are to be protected."

For many Turks, the killing of Dink harks back to the turbulent '70s and '80s, when journalists and intellectuals were frequently the victims of ideologically inspired violence. Although Turkey has moved forward, some wonder whether Dink's murder is an indication that the political gains made over the past few years have yet to be consolidated.

"In a way, he took too many risks, he underestimated his opponents," says Rifat Bali, an Istanbul-based researcher who studies Turkey's minority communities. "Some of the ultranationalist core of Turkey has not changed. It is a militant core that is ready, if necessary, to murder its ideological opponents," he says.

Unlike in the past, however, Turkey's government was quick to respond to the murder, sending top officials to oversee the investigation. The quick arrest of the suspect – teenager Ogun Samast – is also seen as a positive sign, since in the past perpetrators of such crimes were rarely caught.

"Those who created nationalist sentiment in Turkey have fed such a monster that there are many youngsters on the streets who do not find the ... state nationalist enough and are ready to take the law into their own hands," wrote Ismet Berkan in his daily column in Radikal, one of Turkey's main dailies. Extreme nationalism in Turkey is divided into secular and religious camps, although what unites both is non-Muslim minorities.

Experts here say the murder poses a major challenge for the Turkish government, led by the moderately Islamic Justice and Development Party (AKP).

With its EU bid already suffering – negotiations with Brussels have been partially suspended since December – the killing of a journalist who had already been the target of legal proceedings strongly condemned by the EU will only increase the pressure on Ankara and further tarnish its image in Europe.

"The image problem was already bad and this can only make it worse. Turkey will be seen as a country not only curtailing freedom of expression but the country that can also produce people who will assassinate writers and thinkers," says Suat Kiniklioglu, director of the German Marshall Fund's office in Turkey.

"The atmosphere that created this person to go after Hrant Dink with a gun was really the result of the atmosphere created by the trials brought on by Article 301," he says. "In that respect, the government will need now to really take article 301 seriously."

Outside the offices of Agos, an Armenian word that refers to a place where a seed is growing, a makeshift memorial has been created near the spot where Dink was gunned down, with crowds gathering to light candles and lay down flowers.

Dink, who founded the paper in 1996, used his last few columns to write about his legal woes.

"For me, 2007 is likely to be a hard year," he wrote in one column. "The trials will continue, new ones will be started. Who knows what other injustices I will be up against."

In his final column, Dink wrote about the increasing amount of hate mail he was getting, including one letter that scared him enough that he went to the local prosecutor to ask for protection, although without any luck.

"I don't know anyone else like him who raised his voice for minorities and democracy in Turkey," says Murat Celikkan, a veteran Turkish journalist and human rights activist.

"Intellectually he was a very important figure for Turkey. We don't have anyone else like him."
Ik heb Hem niet uit vrees voor de hel noch uit liefde voor het paradijs gediend, want dan zou ik als de slechte huurling zijn geweest; ik heb hem veeleer gediend in liefde tot Hem en in verlangen naar Hem.
-Rabia Al-Basri
pi_45603692
het is trouwens een extreem rechtse moord en heeft niets met hezbollah of wat dan ook te maken, de man die opdracht heeft gegeven voor de moord en dit heeft ook toegegeven, had mett extreem rechtse motieven eerder een mac opgeblazen
Ik heb Hem niet uit vrees voor de hel noch uit liefde voor het paradijs gediend, want dan zou ik als de slechte huurling zijn geweest; ik heb hem veeleer gediend in liefde tot Hem en in verlangen naar Hem.
-Rabia Al-Basri
  dinsdag 23 januari 2007 @ 18:30:26 #57
72039 Pappie_Culo
Spelen is leuk
pi_45604487
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 10:24 schreef buachaille het volgende:

[..]

Maar kennelijk weerhoudt de Islam mensen er niet van om te moorden (en dan druk ik me nog zacht uit)!
En 'hét christendom' is onderscheidt zich hierin blijkens.....?

Prima als je je anti-islamitische gedachtengoed in het rond wil spuien, maar dan moet je wel met wat beters komen.
quote:
Op maandag 22 januari 2007 16:21 schreef Super7fighter het volgende:

[..]

Deze Hrant Dink was overduidelijk bezig om een burgeroorlog en rassenoorlog in Turkije te beginnen ( "het bloed van Turken is smerig").
Hoe dan en tussen wie dan?
Dance into the fire, to fatal sounds of broken dreams...
pi_45604521
quote:
Op dinsdag 23 januari 2007 18:30 schreef Pappie_Culo het volgende:

Hoe dan en tussen wie dan?
mensen die niet weten waar ze het over hebben moet je nooit serieus nemen
Ik heb Hem niet uit vrees voor de hel noch uit liefde voor het paradijs gediend, want dan zou ik als de slechte huurling zijn geweest; ik heb hem veeleer gediend in liefde tot Hem en in verlangen naar Hem.
-Rabia Al-Basri
pi_45605172
100.000 mensen op de begrafenis. Opvallend is ook de de poster met de tekst: "We zijn allemaal Hrat Dink, We zijn allemaal Armeniërs"

Goed om te zien dat dit blijkbaar veel losmaakt bij het Turkse volk, en dat men dit niet zomaar goedkeurt, ook al is de gemiddelde Turk iets nationalistischer dan zijn West-Europese medemens.

pi_45605277
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