Puriteins Fox News haalt Nederland door het slijk...

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Op dinsdag 7 december 2004 23:22 schreef Tessje het volgende:
Hij lijkt wel op Sadam

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 16:51 schreef Lupa_Solitaria het volgende:
Die zogenaamde glijdende schaal doet zich volgens mij helemaal niet voor. Waar het gaat om het euthanaseren van baby's zeker niet. Dit gebeurt alleen maar als het zeker is dat het kind binnen afzienbare tijd tòch zal overlijden en binnen die resterende tijd enorm zal lijden.

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 17:32 schreef Kentaro het volgende:
De meeste ouders zullen het belang van het kind wel laten meewegen echter er is zeker een groep die eigen belang toch wel zwaarder laten wegen en dan heb ik het nog niet eens over de echte idioten die nu al kinderen in portieken neerleggen etc.

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 17:40 schreef Lupa_Solitaria het volgende:

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Ik denk dat zulke dingen doorgaans niet door idioten gedaan worden, maar door wanhopige mensen die de weg even helemaal kwijt zijn...

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 17:45 schreef Kentaro het volgende:
maar hopen dan dat ze niet 'even de weg helemaal kwijt zijn' als de arts vraagt of ze zeker zijn van de euthenasie op hun kind

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 17:48 schreef Lupa_Solitaria het volgende:

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Sorry, hoor, maar een euthanasie wordt niet in een opwelling uitgevoerd. Bij euthanasie op neonatalen zijn doorgaans hele teams van medici betrokken, en het is niet zo dat die gewoon maar meteen doen wat de ouders zeggen... Ik vind dat je een beetje vreemd aan het discussiëren bent nu.

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 17:53 schreef Kentaro het volgende:
rustig maar, was sarcastisch bedoelt. Jou reactie over dat het geen idioten zijn maar mensen die de weg kwijt is is helemaal waar maar doet niets af aan mijn punt dat niet alle ouder het belang van hun kind voorop stellen. zo beter

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Hello,

I have read your column about the Dutch. Quite enjoyable, I dare say, even more so because there are some serious errors in there. I'll point them out one at a time.

You wrote: " A Dutch hospital is euthanizing — killing — newborn babies who don't measure up to an arbitrary standard set by the hospital. " I would like to know, one thing. Why would they do so, why would the hospital kill babies 'who do not measure up to a certain standard'? Even though Holland has a lot of atheists, I myself being one, they also value life. They will only do so when the baby will die anyway, I presume. And the parents will still have a say. If the parents wish the child to live, so be it. In truth, I think that, out of the 100 times the question 'euthanize the baby?', is asked, only 4 or so times will there be an answer which states that it should be done.

You wrote: " Once a single category of life is declassified as having no intrinsic value and a right to life, it is a very short step to declassify other categories when they are considered inconvenient, or burdensome. " This is true, I must agree, but in this context, there is no proof it is true about Holland. Yes, we do have the euthanizing of patients who are beyond cure. And even that is bound to strict regulations, although it is possible. In Holland, the government has obviously introduced this, but that government was way different from the ones who are there now. Now, we have a, for our standards, central-right government. (Which is about 'left' in the USA, because I deem them to be the same as the Democrats.) But back then, we had a central government, comparable with no American party, really, save a mixture of Nader and Democrats. Different times, different governments.

Drugs, some drugs, are legal in Holland, yes. But the funny part is, you can legally smoke the 'dope', as you called it, but you cannot legally sell it on the streets. Twisted, one could say, and very strange. I do not get the point, either. But to think that all Dutch, as you imply, perhaps not willingly, smoke dope, is wrong. Although some of the youth may think 'okay, cool, let's smoke some dope', most of the youth do not agree with that, but since only the bad things come out, this might account for a twisted view. Holland has relatively few accidents with drugs addicts, and the percentage of them is very low as well.

You also say that there are prostitutes in Holland, who display their 'wares like mannequins in department store windows.' You refer to the Red Light District in Amsterdam, that, I am sure of. But doesn't every fairly big town have one, even if it is not out in the open? The Parisian 'Bois de Boulogne' as an example. When you know where to look, one 'gets the job done', if you excuse my pun.

It is true, we are having problems with the open border policy, I am the last to deny it. Verily, it has led to an open hate of Muslims, although not as severe as in Nazi Germany, I, for one, feared a Dutch version of the German 'Kristallnacht', the Night of Broken Glass, I believe it is called in English. But has not every nation had such things, segregation if you wish? I do seem to recollect South Africa, and also the USA. It seems as if it is 'our turn' now.

At the same time, radical 'Whites' are also on the move. In the week after the murder on Theo van Gogh, the filmmaker you refer to in your column, there were, if I recall correctly, five attacks on separate mosque's, each using the infamous Molotov Cocktail or an incendiary bomb. Those Muslims have not assimilated, yet the 'ordinary' Muslims are the victims, because the most have assimilated, save some accents when they speak. (But then again, ever heard our Prime Minister speak English? You should do so, if you wish to have a laugh, it is abysmal, and that is an understatement.)

Furthermore, we have a mayor discussion about freedom of speech right now. But, as someone described to me the other day, on Dutch internet forums, 'there is only freedom of speech for the right-winged'. (With right-winged being a synonym for anti-Muslim.) In this statement, I can see truth in that statement. I am considered very left-wing orientated, and whenever I go into a discussion about Muslims, and I say something which does not go along with the ordinary crowd, I get flamed all the time. Same story if a known Muslim says something. Is this the road Holland is going to take? Now, there's your freedom of speech; only for a selected few. Doesn't that sound a bit like segregation?

And one last point. I see in your column a tad of the Vatican's reprimand to the hospital in question; they think it is killing. The hospital will argue it is not. But what the truth is? One cannot know. But I do agree that it is a slippery slope, and a need for caution is once again there.

What I find worst in your column, is that you, maybe not willingly, compare us to the Nazi's. This is simply not true. The situation in Nazi Germany was very different from our current society. There are but three similarities, one being the economic state of repression, and the other being the fear of others. The third, I have already described, two paragraphs previous. (The Freedom of speech bit.) But we do not take a turn to the extreme, nor have we had a short term of democracy of about 14 years, make that more like 80 years, if you please. Moreover, we have not had a treaty shoved down our throat, and some land taken away in recent years. And there is no propaganda machine at work here; one is not bombed with propaganda here.

I hope you will produce more of such columns in the future, they keep my spirits up, for they are actually funny to see an outsider's view on Holland. But I do hope you will do some research on Holland first, and then make your column, as they would improve it. These are just my views, the views of one being 15 years of age.

Yours Sincerily,

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 18:15 schreef Legolas_Greenleaf het volgende:
Finito.
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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 18:14 schreef Lupa_Solitaria het volgende:

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Ah, okee dan. Maar zelfs als de ouders niet het belang van het kind voorop stellen, zijn er nog mogelijkheden. Er is onlangs een zaak geweest van ouders die uit religieuze overwegingen tegen waren op euthanasie, terwijl hun kind verschrikkelijk leed. Er is een rechtszaak aangespannen en het ziekenhuis heeft gewonnen, het kind mocht sterven. Ik weet helaas niet meer het waar, hoe en wat van die zaak.

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 18:28 schreef Lupa_Solitaria het volgende:
Legolas, ik hoop dat je het niet als een belediging opvat: ik zou na lezing van je brief niet hebben gedacht dat je nog maar 15 bent!

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Op woensdag 8 december 2004 00:32 schreef RonaldV het volgende:
Mail verstuurd om te laten weten hoe beledigd ik me voel en daarna beschaafd al zijn punten onderuit getikt.
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Niet dat ze de moed hebben om de reacties te posten trouwens, ik kon er geen vinden iig.

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Dear mr. Thomas,

I just read your column and i must say i'm shocked by all lies in it.

As for now it seems to me like you have never been to the Netherlands (not: Holland)
and you certainly haven't checked your facts before writing them in your column.

In my opinion, this column can not be taken seriously. I will point out some un-truths
in the text written by you, mr. Thomas.

first there is this text, i'll quote: "A Dutch hospital is euthanizing - killing - newborn babies who don't measure up to an arbitrary standard set by the hospital."

These babies were in fact NOT killed because they 'didn't measure up to an arbitrary standard'. These babies were euthanized because of great respect by the dutch for living a good life without pain. These babies would not have known a single moment of joy in their, very short, lifes and are therefore euthanized. This has, unlike you said, NOTHING to do with an arbitrary standard of ANY kind. There has been a great deal of tlking with the babies parents and it was not the hospital who decided to euthanize them, it was the babies' parents choice.

Holland is a perfect example of what happens when there is no governing moral standard. The Dutch have decriminalized most drugs and people smoke dope openly in venues set aside for the practice.

The moral standard in the Netherlands is a perfect example of a DIFFERENT moral standard than the one the United States have. We have decriminalized SOME drugs (definitely not most) to be able to control the sell of drugs themselves. the republic of the Netherlands is the country in Europe with the lowest amount of drug use. Also drugs are not seen as 'criminal' here, it's seen as a stupid thing to do and the drug user is said to be 'pathetic' and 'weak'.

Drug use in the Netherlands is far less a problem than the problems the US are facing concerning drugs. BECAUSE it is criminalized there, hard drugs (crack) are way more popular in the US than in holland. You get them at the same dealer anyway, and it's much cheaper, right?

The Dutch are now grappling with their open border policy. They have admitted thousands of radical Islamists who have not assimilated and are threatening the stability of the nation

We have indeed done that for quite a few years. This was all because of great mercy to people that do not have the same living standards as the dutch. Unfortunately, some of those people were indeed radical islamists. We realize this and steps are, right now, being taken to avoid any of those problems in the near future.

A Dutch filmmaker (search) was murdered last month by a radical who didn't like a film he made criticizing Islam's treatment of women.

This is, unfortunately, true. The islamic community in the Netherlands however criticize the cruel murder of van Gogh. We are taking this very seriously indeed mister Thomas. This is, however, something that could have happened to any country, not only in Europe but anywhere in the world. The Netherlands are NOT the only country facing these problems
And now we have the killing of newborns. All of this in a country where the Nazis murdered Ann Frank just because she was Jewish and therefore less than human.

Anne Frank was not killed in the Netherlands. She was killed in what we today call Poland. Though comparing the 'killing of the newborns' with the killing of Anne Frank by the germans 50 years ago makes no sense at all. We do not euthanize babies because we think they are 'less than human' but because we deeply respect the right to live a life without pains. What the germans did to Anne has nothing to do with that.

I would really like you to correct some of the worst elements of this column, but being realistic i think it will not be done. I feel a deep disgust about what you wrote about the Netherlands, but I know none of what you wrote was supported by any facts checked by you.

I would like to hear from you,

Yours sincerely,

Erik Klein Langenhorst
inhabitant of the Netherlands


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