De Turkse genocide door Armeniers

quote:

Op dinsdag 3 januari 2012 21:36 schreef TitusPullo het volgende:

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Dat die daaruit blijken staat vast. Maar hij was kennelijk ook fel anti-Duits, wat niet per se betekent dat hij ongelijk had over de methoden die de Duitsers gebruikten in de veroverde gebieden.
Ik weet dat er wel geleerden zijn die, net zoals de schrijver uit 1920, volhouden dat het om een strijd ging waarbij aan beide zijden gruwelen zijn bedreven. Zijn daarover ook krantenberichten bekend uit de oorlog?

Ik weet zelf ook niet alles. Het meeste wat ik weet heb ik gehaald van de site www.tallarmeniantale.com

Ga naar die site en ga op onderzoek uit. Lees verhalen van beide kanten en kom tot je eigen conclusie.

Deze discussie hoeft niet "jij tegen ik" te zijn. Het zou moeten zijn "Jij en ik samen tegen de leugens en voor de waarheid".

quote:

Op woensdag 4 januari 2012 18:18 schreef TitusPullo het volgende:

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Voor alle duidelijkheid: ik ben het zeker niet eens met passages waarin de Turken worden afgeschilderd als bloeddorstige primitievelingen. Ik houd echter ook niet van een website als tallarmeniantale waar men pronkt met de opvang van Joden door de eeuwen heen maar een geleerde als Lemkin negeert of wegwuift.

Mijn excuses voor de late reactie. Ik zeg niet dat de site tallarmeniantale 100% objectief is. Ik zeg alleen dat er hele sterke bewijsstukken instaan. Er staan talloze bewijsstukken in met vindplaatsen in buitenlandse en binnenlandse archieven. Ook komen er veel bewijsstukken uit buitenlandse kranten van die tijd. Het is uitgebreid gedocumenteerd dat Armeniers honderden dorpen hebben aangevallen en honderdduizenden Turken en Koerden hebben afgeslacht.

Bekijk ook de volgende site van een Amerikaanse historicus. Na onderzoek is hij erachter gekomen dat het 'Armeense genocide' verhaal niet klopt. De site bevat uitstekende artikelen over de Armeense kwestie.

http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/

De quote van Hitler over de Armeniers blijkt nep te zijn. Hopelijk wordt hij door niemand meer gebruikt. Lees het artikel hieronder. Klik op de link als je het debat dat er onder staat wil volgen.

http://www.armeniangenoci(...)enian-genocide-quote

Hitler's Armenian Genocide Quote

By Robert Edison
Sun, 04/04/2010 - 20:41


Hitler's Armenian Genocide Quote is a paragraph from Hitler's alleged second speech to his Wehrmacht commanders, a week before the invasion of Poland in August 22, 1939. Since it's first appearance, the quote has been used by Armenian activists as just another reason to believe in the Armenian Genocide.

The quote, though has many similar translations is as follows:


Quote:

Our strength is our quickness and our brutality. Genghis Khan had millions of women and children hunted down and killed, deliberately and with a gay heart. History sees in him only the great founder of States. What the weak Western European civilization alleges about me, does not matter. I have given the order—and will have everyone shot who utters but one word of criticism—that the aim of this war does not consist in reaching certain geographical lines, but in the enemies' physical elimination. Thus, for the time being only in the east, I put ready my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?


The important part is the last sentence that Armenian activists seem to point as evidence for the genocide.

The Argument behind the quote

The goal here is to convince you that Hitler justified the Holocaust and extermination of Jews because no one cared about the genocide of the Armenians.

The argument they use with this quote, is a logical fallacy. If you don't punish the Turks for the Armenian Genocide, some crazy dictator like Hitler will see them get away with it, and thus will commit genocide himself. It's an appeal to emotion. It assumes that crazy people need rational justification or only do something evil because they saw someone else get away with it (like a child may steal a cookie from the jar because he saw dad do it).

Lack of Evidence suggests the Speech is False

Dr. Heath Lowry wrote after looking through the Nuremberg trials for proof of this quote:


Dr. Heath Lowry wrote:

The address was never accepted as evidence in this or any other session of the Nuremberg Tribunal.


There was an attempt to have the quote inserted into the Nuremberg Trials, but the tribunal rejected it because it was a incoherent merger of two Hitler speeches acquired from questionable sources.

Nuremberg trial officials located the true speeches of Hitler during this time and admitted it into evidence. None of them mention Armenians.

Motivation for Fabricating this Evidence

It doesn't take a genius to realize that since everyone equates Hitler and Nazi Germany with pure evil, tying your enemy to them, makes it very easy to force others to sympathize with you and to appeal to their emotions.

Since the popularity of this quote amongst the Armenian community, they have been using it to acquire more sympathy especially among Jewish communities. They have used it to involve themselves more in Holocaust studies and they try hard to relate them to each other.

The mere thought of equating the horrific suffering of Jews to the failed rebellion of the Armenians should enrage any Jewish person. The Jews never rebelled against the Nazis, they were singled out in Germany society and were forced to wear identifying Jewish badges in order to promote antisemitism by law. They were forced to live in ghettos. None of this happened to Armenians. There were many Armenians in leadership positions within the Ottoman government during the reign of the supposed "genocide perpetrators".

Even if we were to assume the speech is absolutely true

If we were to assume the speech is authentic and not question it, the wording of the speech is irrational. The last sentence doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the speech, it's as if, out of the blue, Hitler decides to talk about the plight of the Armenians.

The Speech was about Poland NOT the Holocaust

The speech was talking about the annihilation of the Polish people not the Jews. The Final Solution and the Wannsee Conference that established it, had not yet happened. The Polish people were indeed terrorized by the Nazis during the war, but they weren't exterminated "men, women, and children". Did Hitler's commanders ignore Hitler's command by not exterminating all Poles?

Hitler had to justify genocide to his own commanders?

The speech seems very far-fetched, why would the Fuhrer need to justify to his fascist subordinates about killing anyone by justifying it with past events? Why would he compare himself to the barbarian Genghis Khan?

If he is prepared to shoot anyone who utters "one word of criticism", why did he feel the need to justify killings by referencing Armenians?

Why is the Hitler quote being used as proof of genocide?

How is the word of one crazy dictator somehow evidence? This is like saying "this book says 2+4 = 263 is true, therefore, it must be true." If Hitler had a friend who kept telling him stories about the extermination of Armenians, does that mean Armenians actually faced extermination? Was Hitler a historian? The premise of the argument is that it is assumed the genocide is true when that has never been proven.

Everyday however, Armenians mention this quote as if it is absolute proof that the genocide was real and that others are using it to justify more genocide.

People are reluctant to question every detail, so fabricating new evidence may be discredited by historians but it if it is repeated enough times, even educated people will believe it to be true. Conspiracy theorists use this technique to flood the victim with false facts and false evidence in an effort to wear you down and make you believe.

Nog een zeer interessant artikel, alweer door een westerling die aangeeft een onafhankelijke historicus te zijn.

Armenians are Full of Contradictions

By Jonathan Wilson
Fri, 05/15/2009 - 16:38


Armenians are a proud people, and if you aren't Turkish and you don't deny their unproven genocide, they are also a very friendly people. I've met many Armenians over the years, since I am American, they are extremely friendly to me, and for that reason, I do not discuss this topic with them. That is of course, until they google my name and read some of my articles that disagree with the notion of an Armenian Genocide. After which, they will either disassociate themselves with me, or they will come by and either try to convince me or argue with me. I'm sure many of you, no matter where you are from, have encountered Armenians who try to convince you of the genocide.

The reason they try to convince you, is because of their nationalism, this is not a negative trait, it's just the way they were raised and they are proud of working together with other Armenians to convince the world of their genocide. This is how the Armenian Revolutionary Federation saves its face, otherwise they would have to finally admit after 94 years, that they indeed lost World War I to the Central Power, Ottoman forces. They would have to admit that the Allies really did betray them and left them without reinforcements and all their efforts to sabotage the Ottoman war effort would be gone. The Russian and British promise of a Greater Armenia was broken, they were left with a tiny country and they had no economy and many refugees that were starving in their land-locked nation.

Due to human nature, they had to find someone to blame. They tried to blame the Russians and the rest of the Allies, but it didn't help, no one listened, no one cared. However, when the ARF decided to blame the Ottoman Turks, enemies of the Turks, joined in the blame game, because they all had grudges against the Turks. The British had lost 2 significant battles to the Turks, and they lost the Turkish Independence war, giving the new nation Turkey its own land. The Greeks had lost all of Western Anatolia to the Turks during this war. The French lost all of South-Eastern Anatolia to the Turks. The Russians were creating the Soviet Empire and they were no longer interested in Anatolia, but they too felt betrayed by the Turks who accepted their gifts of weapons but did not convert to communism. Although the Allies had won World War I, in the Turkish independence war, they had lost, and they did not like the Turks.

The Armenian Genocide concept, started after this Turkish independence war. It didn't gain traction until the 1950s and 1960s through widespread propaganda by Armenian communities around the world. This is why the founder of Turkey, Ataturk, has never made any comments about the Armenian Genocide or the accusation of any genocide, because such accusations did not exist when he was alive.

Two Armenians in different times tried to convince me of the genocide. One of them, talked about how his grandmother's husband and children were killed. However, said that she was forced to walk all the way to Syria. As a skeptic, I asked why anyone would kill a family, and then let one of them escape scratch free to Syria, which he could not answer (the reason being, the story was fabricated). When I asked him why then there is no evidence that Talat Pasha, one of the leaders of the Ottoman Empire, had no telegrams ordering genocide, he replied "Why would Talat Pasha leave evidence of his own crimes?"

Another Armenian, tried to convince me by telling me how Talat Pasha wrote a "Black Book" (funny), detailing how he committed the genocide and references "Ottoman documents, not allowed to be seen in the Ottoman Archives today." That was funny because the previous Armenian was telling me Talat Pasha left no evidence of his crime and now he's written a whole black book detailing his crimes, very interesting, very improbable.

When I asked where I can have a copy of this black book, he could not produce it, said that it was sold in various places in different countries. Later, I found out, that he apparently, learned about this black book from some Armenian forum. Again, rumors.

This was similar to the one time where I read a Reader's Digest article hilariously entitled "Why I hate the Turks" -- The Armenian that wrote it, discussed how this very old Armenian described a story of how, he and his family and all of his fellow villagers were trapped in a church, and the "evil Turks" used wood to cover up the windows, and then poured kerosene everywhere and lit the church on fire. He told about how he cried with his family and told them they'd be together again in heaven. Then the story cut off--- huh?? -- How did he escape then? Apparently, that miraculous detail was classified. My suspicion is that he was an ARF member who was the one burning Muslim families in a Mosque, and just twisted the story and made himself the victim, I have no proof, but then again, he doesn't have any proof of his story either.

The writer wrote another story about when this old Armenian man, was only 13, "Turkish and Kurdish marauders" came and attacked his village on horseback. I said "Interesting, never knew Turks and Kurds ever worked together" (because they never did, it was more likely they were all Kurdish, but alas, they always want to put the blame on Turks rather than the real killers). The attackers apparently, killed many villagers, and stabbed the boy with a bayonet and then "stole his clothes" (a grown man stole a child's clothes, very interesting). Wait wait, I missed something, a 13 year old boy was stabbed with a bayonet back in 1915, and somehow survived such a wound in a time where there weren't even any hospitals in most villages? Lies.

This is the problem. We need to apply our logic when listening to these eye-witness stories. Even an American Consul in 1915, once said that "These Orientals, they can't help but exaggerate every story" about the Kurds and Armenians.

These stories to Armenians, are a mission, a nationalistic goal, to convince everyone of a genocide, because they cannot admit the losses they suffered in World War I, were the fault of the ARF, a terrorist organization that sided with the Allies and killed, Armenians, Kurds, and Turks, alike who opposed them.

http://www.armeniangenoci(...)ll-of-contradictions

Lees ook de reacties.

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door polderturk op 01-03-2012 19:51:28 ]

Nog een artikel:

The Turkish Government Denial and Payroll

By Jonathan Wilson
Sat, 01/16/2010 - 00:29


Turkish historians have been interviewing villagers in Turkey and researching historical archives of the Ottoman Empire for decades. Their investigation currently suggests that the event labeled as the Armenian Genocide is not a genocide as defined by the United Nations.

The Armenians have always supported the idea of a genocide ever since they lost World War I and the Allies did not approve of their requests in the Paris Peace Conference. After the Jews got reparations for the Holocaust from Germany; Armenians formed lobbying groups in many countries and their organizations such as the Armenian Revolutionary Federation stepped up their pressure to convince world governments to recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Once it became politicized (sometimes into a hate campaign) and Turkish historians increasingly found more evidence of Armenian massacres of Turks, the Turkish government decided to deny this alleged genocide because of lack of evidence and because they are the ones with access to the Ottoman archives.

Thus, Armenians claimed that since they deny the genocide, then they must have committed the genocide because they pointed to the psychology of genocide denial that asserts all perpetrators of genocide deny their crime.

In essence, if person A claims you're a murderer, and you deny that you murdered anyone. Person A then claims that all murderers deny murders, hence you are truly a murderer. This is a logical fallacy called Begging the Question or circular argument.

To top it off, the Turkish government seeing that Armenians are continuing to convince the world without any evidence, decided it was time to allow all world historians to come to the Ottoman archives in Istanbul and learn the history of previous Ottoman governments. Every year more and more historians come out with new books on the subject, rejecting the idea that this was a genocide.

As a result of the Turkish government's involvement in the debate, Armenians have started a habit of calling anyone who hints at looking for evidence for the Armenian Genocide as "on the Turkish government's payroll". They have used it against every single author that has suggested that the Armenian Genocide does not qualify as genocide as declared by the United Nations.

In fact, even writers for this website have been attacked on the grounds that they are paid agents of the Turkish government. If this website or any of its researchers were paid by the Turkish government, then wouldn't we have advertisement all over the web trying to convince you? Yet we don't have a single ad. We post articles and our research because we are historians and we believe this subject is an important part of history.

We are not motivated by fame, fortune, nationalism, or a paycheck. We are interested in the integrity of history that propagandists on all sides have trampled.

If Armenians make this claim, then cannot Turks make the claim that they are being funded by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation or the Armenian government?

In fact, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, has an office in Boston! What is a 100 year old terrorist organization doing in the United States? (This is equivalent to Al Qaeda having an office in NATO nation). The ARF is working to use US taxpayer money to send billions of dollars of aid to Armenia and to stop aid to country's Armenia hates, such as Azerbaijan and Georgia.

What does Armenia do with more than 2 billion dollars of US taxpayer money over the last few decades? Allow Russia to build more Russian airbases, military bases, and batteries inside Armenia and make more trade deals with Iran (their only friendly neighbor). At least the Russians are getting their money's worth.

As Americans, we dreamed our tax payer money would be used on Americans or at least on allied nations in their times of need that we know would support us when the time comes. Instead we are funding Armenia's war and propaganda machine.

In 1992, Armenia launched an unprovoked sneak attack against Azerbaijan (a neighbor and a US ally). Wealthy Armenian lobbyists campaigned and the US Congress cut aid to Azerbaijan and increased aid to the aggressor: Armenia.

Instead of assuming--that just because the Turkish government elected by its people, and for decades (with completely contradicting political parties in power over the years) denying this genocide--is lying or guilty; we should do some research.

Perhaps it's time we focus our attention to Armenia, a country that keeps its historical archives locked from even their own historians--or how about the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, an organization established to destroy the Ottoman Empire that has offices today in Boston, with its own ARF historical archives also locked.

http://www.armeniangenoci(...)t-denial-and-payroll

Lees ook de reacties.

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door polderturk op 01-03-2012 19:51:04 ]

Het is weer tijd dit topic omhoog te schoppen. Het wordt tijd dat mensen hun meningen over de gebeurtenissen wat bijstellen. Lees de feiten.

*BUMP*

Lees dit topic vanaf het begin. Topic zit vol met bewijzen.

[ Bericht 1% gewijzigd door polderturk op 01-04-2013 15:58:36 ]

Hier nog een boek dat het officiele verhaal in twijfel trekt, en aangeeft dat er ook op grote schaal moslims zijn vermoord door Armeniërs.

http://books.google.nl/bo(...)ermeni%20van&f=false

quote:

Op maandag 1 april 2013 15:46 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:
Heikel onderwerp .
Zal eens gaan (her)lezen.

Heb je de artikelen en de bewijzen doorgelezen? Heb je je mening bijgesteld? Het is mijn overtuiging dat er tijdens WO I er één groot bloedbad was in Anatolie..Armeniërs hebben een genocide uitgevoerd op Turken en Koerden en Turken en Koerden hebben een genocide uitgevoerd op Armeniërs. Kan jij je iets daarbij voorstellen?

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Op donderdag 4 april 2013 20:02 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

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Het is een groot bloedbad geweest als ik alles zo lees.

Dat was het zonder meer. Een verschrikkelijke periode voor alle inwoners. Overal was er dood en verderf. Het gebied werd ook geteisterd door honger en ziekten.

quote:

Op vrijdag 5 april 2013 09:01 schreef DeMolay het volgende:
http://www.geschiedenis24(...)e-of-propaganda.html

Een zeer slecht, en zeer partijdig stuk van Andere Tijden. Ze gaan totaal niet in op de slachtoffers aan Turkse kant. Ze gebruiken Ton Zwaan als bron. Ik heb hem eerder ontmaskerd als leugenaar. Ik moet wel even uitzoeken hoe dat zat. Bovendien is Ton Zwaan een socioloog en geen historicus. Ik ontken overigens niet dat er een genocide op Armeniers heeft plaatsgevonden. Ik geef aan dat er ook een genocide op Turken en Koerden heeft plaatsgevonden. Ze hebben elkaar afgeslacht. Lees de bewijzen die ik in dit topic heb geplaatst.