Oorlog in Libi� #97. Meer bescherming gewenst.

quote:

Op donderdag 14 april 2011 17:48 schreef Monidique het volgende:

[..]

Ja. Het is duidelijk dat de opstandelingen geen staakt-het-vuren willen. Dat is stom, want ze lijken te verliezen, en als het niet aan de Westerse oorlogsverklaring had gelegen, dan bestond er ueberhaupt geen opstandelingenleger meer.

quote:

Op donderdag 14 april 2011 13:27 schreef Monidique het volgende:

[..]

Humaner zou zijn om een staakt-het-vuren af te kondigen, maar dat willen de opstandelingen niet. Wat een wespennest, waar we ons in hebben begeven.

quote:

Op donderdag 14 april 2011 17:48 schreef Monidique het volgende:

[..]

Ja. Het is duidelijk dat de opstandelingen geen staakt-het-vuren willen. Dat is stom, want ze lijken te verliezen, en als het niet aan de Westerse oorlogsverklaring had gelegen, dan bestond er ueberhaupt geen opstandelingenleger meer.

quote:

Op donderdag 14 april 2011 17:52 schreef sunny16947 het volgende:
Ik denk vast te simpel, maar met zoveel landen met militaire overmacht moet het toch mogelijk zijn om in 1 groot luchtoffensief dat legertje van G uit te schakelen? Daar spaar je uiteindelijk burgers mee. Dit slepende in balans houden maakt alleen maar meer slachtoffers.

quote:

Op donderdag 14 april 2011 18:39 schreef Hans_van_Baalen het volgende:

[..]

Een oorlog kan niet gewonnen worden vanuit de lucht. Al is overgewicht in de lucht wel een cruciale factor voor overwinning.

quote:

Op donderdag 14 april 2011 20:17 schreef Sala-adin het volgende:
Is het nou nog aan de gang?

quote:

Al-Jazeera has screened amateur footage that appears to show a protest rally in Misrata in defiance of Gaddafi's attacks on the port city.

مظاهرات في مصراتة متزامنة مع قصف القذافي للمدينة.mp4

quote:

The Citizen Journalist Network reports similar scenes in the city. This video shows a drive round the city depicting rebel forces chanting and sounding car horns.

Scenes from Misrata after a Rebel Victory

quote:

It also shows the extent of damage done by the fighting. Burnt-out cars, a smouldering flat and makeshift barricades can all be seen.

After about five minutes the film focuses on a group of about 100 men crowding round a burnt-out tank. One man stands on the tank holding a machete. Many others appear to be taking mobile phone footage of the tank.

quote:

Op donderdag 14 april 2011 23:16 schreef sunny16947 het volgende:
Open brief aan Saif al islam.

http://www.guardian.co.uk(...)en-letter?CMP=twt_gu

quote:

One of my earliest memories of life in Libya is of watching cartoons on television one afternoon. These were interrupted without warning by images of a man being hanged in what I seem to remember was a sports arena of some kind. Your father's supporters were competing to swing from his struggling legs.

For a long time I chose to interpret the behaviour of these sociopaths as some form of desperate mercy I convinced myself they were trying to limit the victim's suffering. It was many years before I understood that they were in fact trying to catch your father's attention. They wanted to prove they were ruthless and unforgiving enough to be considered true disciples of your father's narcissistic cult.

quote:

However, so long as Qaddafi is in power, NATO must maintain its operations so that civilians remain protected and the pressure on the regime builds. Then a genuine transition from dictatorship to an inclusive constitutional process can really begin, led by a new generation of leaders. In order for that transition to succeed, Qaddafi must go and go for good.

(...)

Britain, France and the United States will not rest until the United Nations Security Council resolutions have been implemented and the Libyan people can choose their own future.

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 08:58 schreef MangoTree het volgende:

[..]



[..]

Hoe verziekt kun je een bevolking krijgen?

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 10:23 schreef Monidique het volgende:
Obama, Sarkozy en Cameron zeggen het al: deze oorlog gaat verder dan de VN-resolutie -die ze al hadden geschonden-, deze oorlog gaat om regime change:

[..]

Goh. Goh. Hm. Wie had ooit k... nou ja.

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 12:13 schreef Ulpianus het volgende:

[..]

Ik vind het hier bijna gerechtvaardigd om een Godwin te maken.

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 13:27 schreef Monidique het volgende:

[..]

Nou, zo ver wil ik niet gaan, de NAVO-aanval is niet vergelijkbaar met de nazi-aanval op Polen.

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 13:00 schreef Hans_van_Baalen het volgende:
Die dochter van G

uitroeien die handel

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 16:52 schreef Tevik het volgende:

[..]

Mensen zoals jij zijn niet beter als Qaddafi.

quote:

With Tripoli's rebel underground

'They're going to catch me soon.' Libyan activist risks arrest to tell of guerrilla attacks and plans for suicide bombings

He was rummaging in the boot of his car as we walked past. "Go forward," he instructed out of the side of his mouth. "I'll pick you up further on."

The car circled several times before he stopped. In a snatched conversation on the phone, he told us he feared he was being watched.

Eventually he felt confident enough to draw up. "You want to go to the fish market?" he called through the lowered window. "Get in."

No, we didn't want to go to the fish market, but as rare and highly-restricted westerners in Tripoli, we both needed a cover story for why we were getting in a Libyan's car.

Our contact was a middle-aged opposition activist in the heart of Muammar Gaddafi's stronghold. Fear and danger are rife; the stakes are high.

During the course of an hour-long conversation, he told us that activists in Tripoli, frustrated by the violent suppression of peaceful protests, were now resorting to guerilla tactics to try to bring down the regime. Even suicide bombings were being considered, he said. His claims cannot be verified or properly evaluated, but they echo accounts obtained by other journalists in Tripoli, and help piece together a picture of underground opposition in the regime-held west of the country.

Our contact took us to a safe house some distance from the city centre. "I am not going to tell you my name, and I don't want to know yours," he said. Before we left, he insisted we delete his phone number from our mobiles.

"They are going to catch me soon," he said with a shrug. He suspected his neighbour of being a spy for the regime – "supergrass" the word he used, reflecting his years living in the UK.

"My name is on a list. Three or four of his boys are really interested in me." In the course of our discussion, he rarely called Gaddafi by name.

"My family don't know about what I'm doing – even my wife," he said. He and his fellow activists communicate using sim cards bought from migrant workers who have fled the country. They speak in code and rarely meet. They have "a few friends in Benghazi", the heart of the rebel-held east, with whom they are in sporadic contact.

Shortly after the Libyan uprising began in the east of the country in mid-February, activists in Tripoli attempted to mount a protest in the capital's central Green Square. It met a violent response from the regime. The rebels were forced to retreat and reconsider their tactics.

Now, the contact said, they were turning to guerrilla actions. They have attacked checkpoints across the city, killing the pro-Gaddafi militia and stealing their guns. The shooting that crackles across the city after dark, which regime officials claim is celebratory gunfire, is the work of the underground rebels, he said. "They [the regime] are covering up ... Every night there are attacks. The boys [on the checkpoints] have got scared. They are only getting 40 dinars (�20) a night, and they are saying we don't want to do this dirty work any more." There have been fewer checkpoints since the attacks began, he claimed.

Asked how they felt about killing fellow Libyans, he replied: "If we don't kill them, they're going to kill us."

The rebels, he said, were planning attacks on petrol stations. Fifteen police stations in the capital have been burned down since the uprising began, he said.

And the underground activists were preparing even bigger attacks. "People are ready for suicide bombings." He told us the rebels were gaining access to explosives from fishermen who use dynamite to stun or kill fish to aid harvesting.

The Libyan leader himself was their number one target, he said. How would they get near him? "We will. We can get near him."

He also claimed that Gaddafi, sooner or later, would face threats from within his inner circle. "People on his side are not with him 100%. They are waiting for one spark. We are waiting for one or two army commanders to turn against him. Then we've got him."

It is, of course, impossible to be certain of the credibility of what we were told. Reporters are denied free movement and access in the regime-held west of the country. But contacts made by other journalists in Tripoli have elicited similar information.

Reuters this week reported opposition activists in Tripoli as saying there have been several attacks on checkpoints and a police station in the past week. It quoted a Libyan rebel sympathiser living abroad but in daily contact with activists in the capital as saying: "There have been attacks by Tripoli people and a lot of people have been killed on the army side."

Other snatched conversations point to dissent rumbling beneath the surface. In a quiet alleyway in Tripoli's old city, a 33-year-old man said he had a rebel flag hidden at home, waiting for the day when Gaddafi goes. "I have a tricolour in my house, I will bring it out when we are free."

In a separate whispered exchange, a shopkeeper said: "Most people are against the system, but can't speak out." Another described Gaddafi as "stupid, a crazy guy, he killed many people".

Many underground rebels have died at the hands of regime forces or have disappeared, our activist contact said.

On 25 February, about 10 days after the uprising began, opposition activists took to the street after Friday prayers. "They were shooting straight away. Six or seven people at [one] mosque, eight at another. It's difficult to count. They pick up the bodies, then claim they were killed by the coalition [airstrikes].

"A lot of good boys are being arrested every day," he said. "They [regime forces] knock on the door. If it's not opened, they smash it down.

"They pick up whoever is in the house. They picked up eight from here three or four days ago. They take the people at night. Some have been held for 50 days."

It's impossible to find out what has happened to them or even to ask the authorities, he said. "If I get arrested, I don't want anyone to look for me because then they will be arrested too."

The youngerA man in the old city told us his cousin disappeared five days before our conversation. They came to his house and took him away, he said. "I can't even ask anyone where my cousin is, it's too dangerous." Thousands of people have disappeared in Tripoli since the crisis began, he claimed.

Figures are impossible to obtain. Amnesty has documented in detail around 30 cases, mainly in the east of the country, while Human Rights Watch has reported a wave of disappearances and arrests in the capital. Our activist contact estimated that a substantial proportion of Tripoli's population oppose Gaddafi. "50% are against him, 25% are on his side and the rest are scared," he said. "But as soon as things change, they'll change quick."

He rejected regime claims that al-Qaida is behind the Libyan uprising. "It's rubbish. He's lying. It's all bullshit, propaganda. This is a pure Libyan revolution. We don't rely on al-Qaida to do our job, Libyans do this."

He said he had high hopes of Nato intervention assisting the rebellion. "I was very happy. I cried when 1973 [the UN resolution authorising military action] was passed, I thought that's it. People were screaming with happiness." Now Nato was not doing enough.

Despite the opposition's struggle to gain ground in the east and the failure of the rebellion – as yet – to take firm hold in the west, the activists will not give up, he said. "They are not going to stop us. You can only die once." Was he prepared to die? "Yes. For our freedom."

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 17:14 schreef rakotto het volgende:

[..]

Ze is medeplichtig. Dus uitroeien mag.

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 21:54 schreef zoefbust het volgende:
wat zou dit zijn ? afgevuurd op de rebellen

[ afbeelding ]

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 22:00 schreef Papierversnipperaar het volgende:

[..]

81mm mortier munitie. Licht-granaat aan parachute.

quote:

Op vrijdag 15 april 2011 22:16 schreef Frikandelbroodje het volgende:

[..]

Er staat een jodenster op?

quote:

cronicle.com - By Ben Wieder
For a roomful of students, faculty, and staff at Lehigh University, the revolution was on Skype this Friday.

Libyan rebels, using the popular Web video and telephone service, spoke with the Lehigh audience for about one hour from a conference room in Benghazi, the countrys second-largest city and the center of the rebellion that has challenged the 42-year rule of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi this spring.

A translator for the rebel army said he hoped the event would give students and faculty a clearer picture of whats happening, which would in turn help them spread their message to a wider audience in the United States.

[..]

With the help of a PowerPoint presentation, the Libyans explained why they thought it was necessary to overthrow Colonel Qaddafi, traced the path of the current revolution, and described the democratic government they would like to build if they depose him.

[..]

In response to a student question about what legacy the rebels would leave, Mr. Hakim said he hoped it would be clear that the actions of the rebels were a necessary response to years of repression under Colonel Qaddafis rule.

We are not armed creeps or terrorists, he said. Necessity requires that we fight.

quote:

Libya: Gaddafi forces 'using cluster bombs in Misrata'

Human Rights Watch say Gaddafi's army has fired the weapons, which cause massive damage and are banned in most states

Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have fired cluster bombs into residential areas of the besieged city of Misrata, according to witnesses.

Human Rights Watch reported that four cluster bombs exploded in the city on Thursday and Friday, and two Libyan residents of Misrata told the Guardian that they suspected the munitions were being used.

Cluster bombs, banned by most countries in the world, explode in midair, indiscriminately throwing out dozens of high-explosive bomblets which cause widespread damage and injuries over a large area. The submunitions often fail to explode on impact but detonate when stepped on or picked up.

The claims came as the leaders of US, Britain and France committed their countries to pursue military action until Colonel Gaddafi has been removed from power. In a joint letter, Barack Obama, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy described the onslaught on Misrata a "medieval siege … to strangle its population into submission".

More than 100 government rockets were also fired on Misrata on Friday during a second day of heavy bombardment. Eight people were killed, according to rebels, who said government forces had reached the city's centre.

HRW condemned the use of cluster munitions, especially in residential areas. "They pose a huge risk to civilians, both during attacks, because of their indiscriminate nature, and afterward because of the still-dangerous unexploded duds scattered about," said Steve Goose, HRW's arms division director.

It said that, based on its examination of submunition found in Misrata, the bombs originated in Spain. "The cluster munition is a Spanish-produced MAT-120 120mm mortar projectile, which opens in mid-air and releases 21 submunitions over a wide area. Upon exploding on contact with an object, each submunition disintegrates into high-velocity fragments to attack people and releases a slug of molten metal to penetrate armored vehicles," it said in a statement.

The US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, speaking after a meeting of Nato foreign ministers in Berlin, said she was not aware of the reports, but remarked, "I'm not surprised by anything that Colonel Gaddafi and his forces do."

She added: "That is worrying information. And it is one of the reasons the fight in Misrata is so difficult, because it's at close quarters, it's in amongst urban areas and it poses a lot of challenges to both Nato and to the opposition."

Mohamed, a rebel opposition spokesman in Misrata, told the Guardian by Skype that he had heard "one big explosion followed by many smaller ones. It sounds like cluster bombs".

He also reported seeing victims of what he called "candy bombs", describing them as "something that resembles a pretty bottle. You pick it up, it explodes and kills you."

Aiman Abushahma, a doctor at a Misrata hospital, said medics were seeing people with injuries consistent with cluster bombs. "We never saw these injuries before. We need experts to assess [the weaponry]," he said.

HRW said cluster bombs had fallen around 1km from the frontline in Misrata. It could not confirm whether civilians had been killed or injured by the munitions.

It quoted two Misrata ambulance drivers, who said they had witnessed cluster strikes on Wednesday and Thursday.

Ibrahim Abuwayfa saw an explosion in the air and "little flames" coming down at about 7pm on Wednesday. "One of the objects landed a few metres away on a residential wall and it exploded when it hit and then shrapnel flew out," he said.

Waleed Srayti said he saw a cluster munition strike at around 11am on Thursday. "I was in the streets behind the vegetable market," he said. "A big battle was going on in Tripoli Street at the vegetable market. I heard a noise and about nine or 10 things started popping out of the sky over the market. I just saw the pops in the air. I saw white smoke coming down."

Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim denied that Libya was using cluster bombs. "We can never do this, morally, legally. We challenge them [HRW] to prove this. We know the international community is coming en masse to our country. We're not using them."

Libya has not signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which bans the use, production, stockpiling and transfer of cluster munitions, and requires states to destroy stockpiles.

quote:

Newsnight's Diplomatic editor Mark Urban in Benghazi profiles the Libyan Revolutionary Council. Who are they and what do they stand for? Are they a coherent, credible force?

quote:

Ja. Het is duidelijk dat de opstandelingen geen staakt-het-vuren willen. Dat is stom, want ze lijken te verliezen, en als het niet aan de Westerse oorlogsverklaring had gelegen, dan bestond er ueberhaupt geen opstandelingenleger meer.

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 01:22 schreef Onverlaatje het volgende:
Monidique schreef:

[..]

Stom, slim, daar denk je alleen aan als je huurling bent.
Als je rebel bent, dan accepteer je al dat je dood bent, maar dat je je dood nog enigszins wilt uitstellen met kans op een mogelijke overwinning.

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 12:16 schreef zarGon het volgende:
Nieuwstitel:

[..]

Hm, ik dacht bezorgd om de gevolgen voor het volk in die landen!

[..]

.

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 12:28 schreef houda het volgende:

[..]

Inderdaad... Geen woord over alle slachtoffers!! Bah wat een egoistisch onderzoek zeg!

quote:

En ik snap ook niet dat de mensen bezorgd zijn over radicalisering hoor, tuurlijk zullen er mensen zijn die verkeerde bedoelingen hebben.
Maar zo gauw dit over is gaan de libische mensen gewoon verder met de strijd TEGEN radicalisering en terrorisme en Al Qaida!!

quote:

Eerst m,oet die Gadahaffi weg en dan pas kan er weer een fatsoenlijk beleid hier tegen opgezet worden!!

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 12:49 schreef Tevik het volgende:

[..]

Libische volk is slachtoffer van zichzelf. Daar waar de Tunesiers en de Egyptenaren niet naar wapens grepen, greep een deel van de Libiers snel naar de wapens. "Wie met het zwaard vecht, zal door het zwaard omkomen."

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 12:16 schreef zarGon het volgende:
Nieuwstitel:

[..]

Hm, ik dacht bezorgd om de gevolgen voor het volk in die landen!

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 12:56 schreef Papierversnipperaar het volgende:

[..]

Je liegt. De Ook in Libi� begon het met vreedzame demonstraties. Ghaddafi heeft er een oorlog van gemaakt, burgers werden genoodzaakt zich te verdedigen. In Benghazi hadden ze ongewapend een legerbasis veroverd.

quote:

But broadening our military mission to include regime change would be a mistake.

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 12:57 schreef Monidique het volgende:

[..]

Ongewapend met autobommen, ja. . "Smerige leugenaar."

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 12:59 schreef Monidique het volgende:
Wat een domme, domme, ondoordachte, domme oorlog toch. Na de debacles in de Balken en in het Midden-Oosten, gaan we toch maar weer even een oorlogje voeren. Aanvallen, en later zien we wel hoe het verder moet!

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 13:03 schreef waht het volgende:
Als jij de toekomst kan voorspellen ligt voor jou een puike baan in het voorschiet.

quote:

Tevens deze dooddoener: All that needs to be done for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing.

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 13:08 schreef Monidique het volgende:


Dooddoener, ja. Meer niet.

quote:

If bloodbath was unlikely, how did this notion propel US intervention? The actual prospect in Benghazi was the final defeat of the rebels. To avoid this fate, they desperately concocted an impending genocide to rally international support for “humanitarian’’ intervention that would save their rebellion.

On March 15, Reuters quoted a Libyan opposition leader in Geneva claiming that if Khadafy attacked Benghazi, there would be “a real bloodbath, a massacre like we saw in Rwanda.’’ Four days later, US military aircraft started bombing. By the time Obama claimed that intervention had prevented a bloodbath, The New York Times already had reported that “the rebels feel no loyalty to the truth in shaping their propaganda’’ against Khadafy and were “making vastly inflated claims of his barbaric behavior.’’

It is hard to know whether the White House was duped by the rebels or conspired with them to pursue regime-change on bogus humanitarian grounds. In either case, intervention quickly exceeded the UN mandate of civilian protection by bombing Libyan forces in retreat or based in bastions of Khadafy support, such as Sirte, where they threatened no civilians.

The net result is uncertain. Intervention stopped Khadafy’s forces from capturing Benghazi, saving some lives. But it intensified his crackdown in western Libya to consolidate territory quickly. It also emboldened the rebels to resume their attacks, briefly recapturing cities along the eastern and central coast, such as Ajdabiya, Brega, and Ras Lanuf, until they outran supply lines and retreated.

Each time those cities change hands, they are shelled by both sides — killing, wounding, and displacing innocents. On March 31, NATO formally warned the rebels to stop attacking civilians. It is poignant to recall that if not for intervention, the war almost surely would have ended last month.

quote:

Op zaterdag 16 april 2011 13:17 schreef Monidique het volgende:

[..]

http://www.boston.com/bos(...)isc:on:share:article

Een goede samenvatting van de oorlog tot nu toe. De reden (b)lijkt pure propaganda te zijn;