Crisis & Vervroegde verkiezingen in Turkije

quote:

The battle for Turkey's soul



May 3rd 2007
From The Economist print edition
If Turks have to choose, democracy is more important than secularism

Reuters

AT A time when Muslim fundamentalism seems to be on the rise all around the world, the sight of somewhere between half a million and a million people marching through Istanbul in defence of secularism is a remarkable one. But then Turkey is a remarkable place. As a mainly Muslim country that practises full secular democracy, it is a working refutation of the widespread belief that Islam and democracy are incompatible.

That's not the only reason why Turkey matters. It is a big and strategically important country, has the largest army in NATO after America's, offers a crucial energy route into Europe that avoids Russia and is the source of much of the water in the Middle East. If the negotiations under way for its entry into the European Union succeed, it will be the EU's biggest country by population. But the reason that the world's eyes are fixed on it this week is the possibility that the army might intervene to limit Islam's role in government (see article). For if Turkey cannot reconcile Islam and democracy, who can?
Cyber soldiers

Over the years Turkish democracy has shown itself to be vibrant yet fragile. A string of military coups and interventions stand as testimony to the army's self-appointed role as the guardian of Kemal Ataturk's secular republic. The most recent instance came a mere ten years ago—the so-called post-modern coup that led to the ousting of a previous moderate Islamist government.

On April 27th the army suggested that it might do the same again. Just before midnight, after a day of inconclusive parliamentary voting for a new president, the army's general staff posted a declaration on its website that attacked the nomination of Abdullah Gul, the foreign minister, for the presidency, and hinted none too subtly at a possible coup against the mildly Islamist Justice and Development (AK) government led by Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister who nominated Mr Gul. On May 1st the constitutional court annulled the first round of parliamentary voting for the president, saying not enough members were present. Mr Erdogan promptly said he would call a snap parliamentary election. Street protests, first in Ankara and then in Istanbul, have heightened tension. The cities' coffee houses are buzzing with conspiracy theories.

Given the fractious state of the main opposition parties, and his government's record over the past four years, pollsters expect Mr Erdogan to win another thumping majority. He may then choose to stick with Mr Gul for the presidency, or he may look for another candidate. But he is unlikely to pick one who meets the objections of the army and the secularists.

Turkey's secularists have always mistrusted the AK Party, which has Islamist roots and in government has sometimes toyed with moderate Islamist measures. They especially dislike Mr Gul and Mr Erdogan because their wives sport the Muslim headscarf, which in Ataturk's republic is banned in public buildings. They fret at the prospect of such people controlling not only the government and parliament, as now, but the presidency as well. They fear that once the AK Party has got that triple crown, it will show its true colours—and that they will be rather greener. Given that a fundamental reading of Islamic texts sees no distinction between religion and the state, and that fundamentalism is spreading in the Muslim world, it is understandable that people should entertain such fears.

Yet they do not justify a military intervention such as that of April 27th. However desirable it may be to preserve Ataturk's secular legacy, that cannot come at the expense of overriding the normal process of democracy—even if that process produces bad, ineffective, corrupt or mildly Islamist governments. Algeria, where 150,000 people died in a civil war after an election which Islamists won was annulled in 1992, holds a sharp lesson about what can happen when soldiers suppress popular will. Of course, Turkey is not Algeria; but armies everywhere should beware of subverting elections. It is up to voters, not soldiers, to punish governments—and they will now have the opportunity to do so in Turkey.

They may not want to. Mr Erdogan's government has been Turkey's most successful in half a century. After years of macroeconomic instability, growth has been steady and strong, inflation has been controlled and foreign investment has shot up. Even more impressive are the judicial and constitutional reforms that the AK government has pushed through. Corruption remains a blemish, but there is no sign of the government trying to overturn Turkey's secular order. The record amply justifies Mr Erdogan's biggest achievement: to persuade the EU to open membership talks, over 40 years after a much less impressive Turkey first expressed its wish to join.
Who cares what Europe thinks?

Unfortunately, the EU's enthusiasm for Turkish entry, never high, has visibly waned. Were Nicolas Sarkozy to win the French presidency on May 6th, that would be another setback to Turkey's ambitions: he is categorically against the notion of it ever joining the EU.

In practice there is no chance of Turkey actually signing on the dotted line for another decade. But the perception in the country that so many current members are against it matters, for it reduces the EU's influence. Were the prospects of EU membership obviously brighter, the army would not have intervened as brutally. As it is, the EU's mild condemnation was shrugged off in Ankara, especially when the Americans said nothing at all. Their influence in Turkey is also much diminished, mainly because the war in Iraq has inflamed anti-American feeling.

Given the West's declining influence on their country's actions, Turks themselves must resolve their political crisis. The best way to do that would be to reject the army's intervention by re-electing the AK Party. The secularists' fears of the creeping Islamisation are understandable; but the AK Party's record does not justify it, and military intervention is no way to avert it. For the sake of the state they are trying to protect, Turkey's soldiers should stay out of politics.

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 12:36 schreef HiZ het volgende:

Overigens; een leuke voor de halve-garen hier in de topic die het nodig vonden het gerucht te verspreiden dat Atatürk een 'dönme' was. Op het ogenblik ligt er een boek in de Turkse boekhandels dat heet 'De kinderen van Mozes'. Een exposé van een Kemalist waarin uit de doeken wordt gedaan dat Erdogan én zijn vrouw 'eigenlijk' Joden zijn.

Waarmee maar weer eens bewezen is dat er geen conflict op deze aarde is waar de zionisten niet achter beide kanten van het conflict zaten. (ik had hier een smiley achter moeten zetten maar ik hoop maar dat er genoeg gebruikers zijn die ook zonder smiley sarcasme kunnen herkennen).

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 14:46 schreef HiZ het volgende:

[..]

Nope, ik mag niet stemmen en heb me nooit echt verdiept in dat soort zaken. Wat ik wel eens heb gehoord is dat je moet stemmen in de gemeente waar je officiëel ingeschreven bent en als dat niet kan allerlei moeilijke bureaucratische procedures moet doorlopen.

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 14:48 schreef TheMagnificent het volgende:
Ik dacht dat je op het vliegveld kon stemmen, maar dat weet ik niet zeker.

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 15:31 schreef Stark het volgende:
Dit is in het Engels:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pOhAOVaXCVE

En dit in het Turks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho5sG7DxThI

Bevat ook exclusieve beelden.

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 15:35 schreef TheMagnificent het volgende:

[..]

Off-topic.

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 14:52 schreef Slayage het volgende:

[..]

oh jaaa, je was geen turk meer

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 17:38 schreef HiZ het volgende:

[..]

Wat dacht je van Nederlander ?

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 12:36 schreef HiZ het volgende:
Ik denk dat er niet echt plek is voor een centrumpartij naast de AKP, wat de Anap en DYP tamelijk overbodig maakt. De tragedie is dan natuurlijk dat het 'linkse' alternatief de CHP zou moeten zijn terwijl die zich hebben ontpopt tot een bende fascisten.

Volgens mij heb je daarmee ook de oorsprong van de huidige crisis beschreven; Anap en DYP die weten dat ze inhoudelijk eigenlijk nagenoeg bij de AKP horen, maar uit strategische overwegingen meedoen met de CHP. Gewoon omdat ze het de AKP niet gunnen.

Overigens; een leuke voor de halve-garen hier in de topic die het nodig vonden het gerucht te verspreiden dat Atatürk een 'dönme' was. Op het ogenblik ligt er een boek in de Turkse boekhandels dat heet 'De kinderen van Mozes'. Een exposé van een Kemalist waarin uit de doeken wordt gedaan dat Erdogan én zijn vrouw 'eigenlijk' Joden zijn.

Waarmee maar weer eens bewezen is dat er geen conflict op deze aarde is waar de zionisten niet achter beide kanten van het conflict zaten. (ik had hier een smiley achter moeten zetten maar ik hoop maar dat er genoeg gebruikers zijn die ook zonder smiley sarcasme kunnen herkennen).

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 21:56 schreef HiZ het volgende:

[..]

Er is kennelijk een misverstandje, ik heb nooit de Turkse nationaliteit gehad. En inmiddels zijn de mogelijkheden om 'm eventueel wel te krijgen 'verlopen'. Maar daar hoeven we het verder niet over te hebben. Dit topic gaat niet over mij en mijn familie maar over de crisis in Turkije.

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 12:36 schreef HiZ het volgende:


Overigens; een leuke voor de halve-garen hier in de topic die het nodig vonden het gerucht te verspreiden dat Atatürk een 'dönme' was. Op het ogenblik ligt er een boek in de Turkse boekhandels dat heet 'De kinderen van Mozes'. Een exposé van een Kemalist waarin uit de doeken wordt gedaan dat Erdogan én zijn vrouw 'eigenlijk' Joden zijn.

quote:

The latest Jewish conspiracy: Turkey's 'moderate Islam' and the AKP
Saturday, May 5, 2007

Did you know that Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdoğan and his wife are crypto-Jews who secretly collaborate with the Mossad to destroy Atatürk's legacy?.. Well, that’s the latest lunacy that Turkey’s secularo-fascists have come up with

MUSTAFA AKYOL

Did you know that Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdoğan and his wife are crypto-Jews who secretly collaborate with the Mossad? And that they are trying to cook-up �moderate Islam� and destroy Turkish secularism for the sake of serving the elders of Zion?

Well, I had no clue about that terrible conspiracy either, until I went into a major Istanbul bookstore last weekend and checked the bestsellers list. There were a few usual titles telling stories about how the beloved Secular Turkish Republic is targeted by internal and external plots — a highly popular and powerful paranoia in the country these days — but none of them were as informative as the one penned by a die-secularist named Ergün Poyraz. �The Children of Moses� is the title of Mr. Poyraz's masterpiece, and in its subtitle, there are two unexpected names: �Tayyip and Emine.� On the book's cover, there is even a more stunning graphic message: a huge Star of David encircles the photos of Mr. and Mrs. Erdoğan.

Of course a sane and educated person does not even need to turn the cover of the book to figure out that this is totally insane. But I decided to be lenient on the author and decided to buy and read his �investigative book.� Ah, it was quite hard: The �writer� could not write five sentences in a row without a spelling or grammar mistake. (Apparently his �editor� was no better.) The bizarre claims he made throughout the text are not documented, footnoted, or anything. The �method� he uses is to cherry-pick irrelevant facts and build wild speculations on them. Any Jewish organization that Mr. Erdoğan has spoken to (such as the Anti-Defamation League or the American Jewish Committee) are given as �proofs� of his alleged �secret connections� with �global Jewry,� whom the writer obviously sees via the lenses of his forerunners in Okhrana— the secret police of the Russian Empire, which, according to many experts, penned the infamous anti-Semitic hoax, �The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.�

�The Children of Moses� sounds not only anti-Semitic but also Kurdophobiac. While exposing the alleged Jewish roots of the Erdoğan family — and how he does that is really beyond me — the writer also fervently unveils the Kurdish origin of some of Mr. Erdoğan's current or previous advisors, as if it is something that one has to be ashamed of. It is clearly, and unabashedly, a racist book.

Nuts as mainstream:

Why do I care about a single book, you might ask. After all, each county has its nuts, and these nuts fabricate all the crazy conspiracy theories you can imagine. That's true. But in most countries, nuts are recognized and treated as nuts. In Turkey, however, they are becoming quite mainstream.

You just need to look at the back cover of Mr. Poyraz's book to see that. It presents two powerful endorsements. The first one is from journalist Emin Çölaşan. �I started to read this book and could not drop it, Ergün Poyraz is a magnificent researcher,� Mr. Çölaşan says. �My request from you is to read this surprising book; when you read, you will thank me.�

Well, I haven't thanked him yet, but if you plan to do, you can find his contacts from Hürriyet, Turkey's no. 1 daily, where he is a very well established and prominent columnist. (To be fair, I should note that mainstream Hürriyet has several other columnists who strongly disagree with Mr. Çölaşan on many issues.)

The second endorsement at the back cover of �The Children of Moses� comes from a less direct but a much more powerful source: It is from Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, Turkey's founder! �My suggestion to my esteemed nation,� Atatürk said according to Mr. Poyraz, �is that it should not give up examining the real core of the blood and the conscious of the men whom it will choose as its leaders.�

Wow… That's quite a suggestion. And it apparently justifies Mr. Poyraz's obsession about the �real core of the blood� of Mr. Erdoğan and other personalities in his party, the AKP.

For the rest of us, the Atatürk quote at the back cover of a racist, anti-Semitic and anti-AKP book points to a very interesting fact: that the dogmatic Kemalists of Turkey, who are the driving force behind the current paranoia about secularism, have come to the point of fascism. In my previous columns I have criticized Turkey's �illiberal secularists� who do not respect the freedom of religion of our citizens — whether they might be Muslim or Christian. The book �The Children of Moses� represents the mindset of the most radical wing in this illiberal camp, and actually the term �illiberal� is not enough to define their worldview. To borrow a term from President Bush and to give it a little pun, I would rather call them �secularo-fascists.�

Secularo-fascism versus �moderate Islam':

I hope the Western world will understand that the current political conflict in Turkey is not between �Islamists� and �secularists,� as some commentators put it. No, the two poles in the conflict are actually Muslim democracts and secularo-fascists. The latter group has potrayed itself as the Westernizing force in Turkish society for so many decades, but it was actually never Western in the democratic and liberal sense. Moreover, in the past five years, especially in response to the pro-EU stance of the Muslim democrats, it has become growingly anti-Western, and, as Mr. Poyraz's lunatic book indicates, even anti-Semitic.

You can observe that not only in Turkey's bookshelves, but also in its streets. The giant rallies held in Ankara and Istanbul in the previous weeks in order to protest against the AKP government was full of anti-American and anti-European slogans. The �moderate Muslim� AKP was denounced as the collaborator of Western imperialism and global capitalism, which both supposedly aim to take Turkey away from Atatürk's supposedly socialist and authoritarian model. Some secularists carried giant posters denouncing Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül, the AKP's candidate for president, with a pun: �We want no ABD-ullah as president,� their posters read. The initials �ABD� are the Turkish equivalent of �USA.� In other words, they were calling him �USA-ullah.�

This imagined alliance between the USA and the AKP started when some US officials praised Mr. Erdoğan and Mr. Gül's movement as an example of �moderate Islam.� Well, in the whole world, �moderate Islam� is a good thing. But for Turkey's secularists, it is heresy. �We are not a moderate Muslim country,� many secularist Turkish officials and pundits angrily proclaimed, �we have nothing to do with Islam.� They actually want to see a totally secularized society in which religion has no visible presence. The only publicly free faith should be, according to them, the official cult of personality built around the country's founder.

But why is that, you might ask. Why Turkey's secularists can't stand to see anything Islamic, while the Western world has concerns only about the radical interpretations of the faith? Well, one needs to explore Turkey's century-old modern Islamophobia to answer that question. But that's the topic of another column.

quote:

Op zondag 6 mei 2007 00:07 schreef IHVK het volgende:

[..]

Maar het is best interessant eigenlijk hoe dat precies zit, wel offtopic natuurlijk, maar interessant.

quote:

Op zondag 6 mei 2007 00:37 schreef IHVK het volgende:

[..]

Maar dat zijn mijn zaken niet.

quote:

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2007 16:20 schreef HiZ het volgende:

[..]

Voor een beetje Jodenhater is alles hetzelfde topic dus nooit iets off-topic.

quote:

From The Sunday Times
May 6, 2007
Headscarf war threatens to split Turkey
Christina Lamb, Istanbul

SHE has a gentle face and caring manner. She has completed nine years of medical school and training, including a year as a clinician at a hospital in the Welsh city of Bangor. But at 29, Dr Ayse Maden cannot work in her home country of Turkey as the paediatrician she has trained to be because she wears a headscarf.

“It’s crazy, isn’t it?” she says, pointing at the offending item, which is white with green and black spots on the day we meet. Headscarves are banned inside public offices in Turkey, including schools and hospitals, and Maden has to scrape a living doing occasional medical translation. Yet outside on a busy Istanbul street, almost every woman passing is wearing a headscarf.

It is this simple square of cloth that has provoked a political crisis, exposing a growing rift between Islamists and secularists over Turkey’s direction, and threatening a military coup.

Almost two-thirds of Turkish women wear a headscarf – 62%, according to the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation – but the prime minister’s nomination of a president whose wife wears a headscarf has produced outrage. More than a million flag-waving protesters came out on to the streets of Istanbul last Sunday.

It also prompted the country’s powerful military to post a warning on the army’s website that it may intervene to protect the secular state laid down by its founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

“The headscarf is a political symbol,” explains Professor Nilufer Narli, head of sociology at Bahcesehir University, who was among the protesters. “People think if the first lady wears a headscarf then many things will change, threatening our whole secular system and forcing all women to wear headscarves.”

Ayse Maden was two years into her degree at the Bosphorus University in Istanbul when the headscarf ban was imposed in 1998. “I had worn it since I was 16 because it is part of my Muslim faith to cover my head,” she said. “It was my dream to be a paediatrician but I couldn’t just stop something that is an important part of my religion.”

For two years she and her headscarf-wearing friends, such as Havva Kaplan, continued trying to get into the university every morning but most days were forced back by the police or the professors. Her parents and professors suggested she stop wearing the scarf or, like many women, wear a wig on top of it. “I cried a lot thinking about it,” she said. In the end she learnt English and went to Hungary to study before going to Wales to work.

Maden and Kaplan are activists for the Women’s Rights Organisation Against Discrimination, set up in 1999 to fight for an end to the ban. They have issued lawsuits against universities, and lobbied MPs and nongovernmental organisations, but Kaplan admits: “We’ve got nowhere.”

Their hopes were dashed when the headscarf ban was upheld by the European Court of Human Rights in 2005 and now they mostly raise money to send headscarf-wearing girls to study overseas.

“It should be our right to wear what we like,” said Kaplan, sitting in an office decorated with paintings of women in headscarves crying behind wire or being silenced by the hands of police. “This ban is excluding women from higher education and denying them jobs.”

Among their friends is a woman with a top degree in international relations who is now taking a cookery course because her headscarf bars her from working as a diplomat. Another is a lawyer who has to pass cases to her brother when they reach court because she cannot appear. And although the ban applies only to state institutions, it deters many firms from employing women in headscarves.

“I don’t understand why people are so scared of the headscarf,” said Kaplan. “We don’t see why Turkey can’t be both modern and Islamic.”

Despite the stark contrast in Istanbul between places such as the glitzy Kanyon centre, where the wealthy shop at Harvey Nichols, and the poor suburb of Fatih where the mosque is the focus of attention, it is common to see scantily clad women arm in arm with those in headscarves and long coats.

But many Turks believe it is a choice, pointing out that the issue takes on much more significance, given Turkey’s geographical position straddling East and West and with neighbours such as Iran and Iraq.

“This is not just a political crisis, it’s a war about a style of life,” says Narli, the sociology professor, tossing back her long, highlighted hair with red manicured nails to match her red high heels. “All my friends are tense and angry and worried about the future for their daughters.”

She points out that the past 30 years has seen an enormous influx of rural people into the cities bringing with them village traditions such as wearing headscarves. At the same time headscarves have been changing. While mothers tended to wear simple scarves tied under the chin, their daughters are using what are known in Turkey as turbans – scarves pinned to cover the neck completely.

“For years the middle classes have been silent but we see our society changing, more and more people wearing turbans and going to Mecca,” said Narli. “It’s like slicing a sausage piece by piece until people decide that’s enough. That’s why many came to the streets to protest for the first time in their lives.”

The battle over the headscarf is not just about religious beliefs. It also represents a clash between a fiercely secular elite, the so-called “white Turks”, and a new urban entrepreneurial class, many of whom came from the countryside. These generally support the Islamic-rooted Justice and Development (AK) party that swept to power in 2002 after an economic collapse.

The issue came to a head 10 days ago when Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, nominated his foreign minister, Abdullah Gul, to replace President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, who steps down on May 16. A Gul presidency would mean the country’s parliament, government and presidency would all be controlled by an Islamic party for the first time.

A parliamentary vote in Gul’s favour on April 27 led to the generals’ ultimatum late that night. Describing themselves as “the absolute defenders of secularism”, they added: “When necessary we will demonstrate our attitudes . . . Let no one doubt this.”

Few did: Turkey’s army is Nato’s second biggest with more than 1m soldiers and has ousted four governments in the past 50 years, the latest just 10 years ago.

Last Sunday saw the secularists’ second mass protest in a fortnight, chanting, “No to Shariat [Islamic laws]!” and “We will reconquer Istanbul!” On Monday the Turkish lira tumbled and stocks fell 4%.

There was little surprise on Tuesday night when the constitutional court declared the vote for Gul invalid, invoking a little-known law requiring a quorum of 367 MPs. Parliament brought forward elections to July 22.

An angry Erdogan described the court’s decision as “a bullet fired at democracy” and vowed to press on with Gul’s candidacy. Another vote is scheduled for today but the necessary quorum is not expected to be achieved.

Tens of thousands of people protested against the government in two western cities yesterday, calling for the secular system to be preserved.

Gul is regarded as charming, speaks several languages and, as foreign minister, has overseen negotiations for accession to the EU. “I have been Turkey’s foreign minister for 4½ years,” he said last week. “There are not many people in Turkey who can be trusted if I can’t be.”

But Turkey’s president holds important powers, such as chairing the national security council and appointing judges, university rectors and top civil servants as well as a veto over legislation.

Many secular Turks suspect AK harbours a hidden Islamic agenda that it would implement once it had control. They point out that Erdogan was imprisoned in 1999 for inciting religious hatred after he recited an incendiary Islamic verse and was photographed sitting at the feet of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a fundamentalist Afghan warlord.

This view is widely held at the Ataturk Thought Association (ADD), which aims to protect the legacy of the revered founding father of the 84-year-old republic. The ADD was one of the groups behind last Sunday’s rally and its office above the Bakirkoy market is bustling with people preparing flyers for others all over the country.

The ADD’s president claims that membership has risen from 350,000 to 1m because people are so fearful that secularism is under threat. One of the new members is a pretty 18-year-old called Ekiem who hopes to study industrial engineering.

“AK wants to turn Turkey into Iran and force us to wear chadors,” she says. “To me there’s a war going on for Turkey now and my generation must fight for the republic as the young generation did during Ataturk’s time.”

Yet nobody at the ADD is able to name a single law promoted by the AK party that challenges the country’s secularism. Some AK-controlled municipalities have created alcohol-free zones and Erdogan did try to criminalise adultery in 2004 as part of a reform of the penal code but withdrew it under EU pressure. Yet the party has disappointed many of its own supporters by not lifting the headscarf ban.

Under AK rule, Turkey has seen lower inflation and higher foreign investment, and has been accepted as a candidate for EU membership.

The events of the past 10 days, including the army’s statement, may have strengthened the AK’s position in the forthcoming elections, though yesterday two centre-right parties announced that they were uniting to take it on.

Not everyone is unhappy. At the Tekbir headscarf shop in Fatih, where scarves are on sale for anything from £2 for cotton to £50 for silk, sales have been booming so much that it now has three branches.

“Maybe Turkey is now two Turkeys,” said Cemil, one of the salesmen. “But I know which one is growing faster.”

quote:

Op zondag 6 mei 2007 12:45 schreef HiZ het volgende:
Overigens is Abdullah Gül inmiddels geen presidentskandidaat meer. Na twee poginging vanmorgen om een stemming door 367 leden te laten plaatsvinden heeft hij zijn kandidatuur ingetrokken.

Nu moeten we dus afwachten of de grondwet gewijzigd kan worden en wat de kiezer ervan vindt.

quote:

Op dinsdag 8 mei 2007 17:37 schreef HiZ het volgende:
Ollie Rehn heeft aangekondigd dat er 3 nieuwe hoofdstukken in de onderhandelingen tussen Turkije en de EU worden geopend. Dat is dan toch een steuntje in de rug voor de AKP.

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 17:11 schreef Tavukbogu het volgende:
Het probleem met de AKP is dat zij niet gelijk van Turkije een kalifaat zullen maken, maar dat er over 10/15 jaar je wakker zal worden en zal zien dat in Turkije allemaal tarikat groepjes de dienst zullen uitmaken. De politie is al "besmet". Ook de lagere rangen van het leger danst naar de poppen van die gasten. Het lijkt voor de onwetende allemaal wel leuk en aardig op tv, en misschien is de economie wel een stuk beter dan 5 jaar geleden maar het gevaar dreigt zeer zeker.

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 17:14 schreef Slayage het volgende:

[..]

dus erdogan probeert een kalifaat de eu in te loodsen?

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 17:24 schreef Tavukbogu het volgende:

[..]

Na verloop van tijd wel ja, kijk ik weet niet wat voor een persoon jij bent. Begrijp me niet verkeerd ik ben van ne darbe, ne seriat --> demokratik Turkiye. Ik heb persoonlijk ook een schijthekel aan het Turkse leger. Maar ben jij wel voor seriat in Turkije? Of zeg je van laat de demokratische processen zijn gang gaan?

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 18:38 schreef adnansupernew het volgende:
maar die 95% van de turken is moslim, en seriaat is een politieke vorm die verplicht door moslims nagestreefd moet worden. Dat mensen angstig worden van de gedachte en aan iran denken is altijd zo typisch en totaal verkeerd.

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 21:02 schreef IHVK het volgende:
Opvallend dat er een vrouw met een hoofddoek tussen loopt.

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 21:01 schreef IHVK het volgende:
Je kan alles zeggen, maar niet dat het er niet gezellig uitziet daar.

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 18:39 schreef IHVK het volgende:

[..]

niet waar.

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 20:56 schreef TheMagnificent het volgende:
Vandaag waren er weer demonstraties. Dit keer in Izmir.

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 22:02 schreef Slayage het volgende:

[..]

waren belangrijkere dingen vandaag in izmir

[afbeelding]

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 22:02 schreef HiZ het volgende:
Nou ja, één ding moet je de CHP nageven; ze hebben strak georganiseerde bijeenkomsten. Maar dat zie je wel vaker bij fascistische partijen.

quote:

Op zondag 13 mei 2007 22:03 schreef IHVK het volgende:

[..]

MIjn Besiktas wat doen ze.