Iraakse archeologie bedreigd

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 13:07 schreef Robert_Jensen het volgende:

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Oh en dat is niet een foute actie van die sjeik maar de schuld vd VS natuurlijk weer?

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The Fourth Geneva Convention further states that the occupying power has the duty "of ensuring and maintaining, with the cooperation of national and local authorities, the medical and hospital establishments and services, public health and hygiene in the occupied territories". The occupying powers should also ensure the availability of necessary supplies so that hospitals and medical services can work properly.

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Duidelijk, laat die tanks die voor het ministerie van de olie staan maar vertrekken om de ziekenhuizen te beschermen, dat is heel wat meer urgent.

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 13:22 schreef schatje het volgende:
Guantamo Bay heeft al een ander topic.
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bron

Duidelijk, laat die tanks die voor het ministerie van de olie staan maar vertrekken om de ziekenhuizen te beschermen, dat is heel wat meer urgent.

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 14:03 schreef BAZZA het volgende:

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Die staan er al, zie ook bv:
http://teletekst.nos.nl/gif/160-01.html

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 14:03 schreef BAZZA het volgende:

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Die staan er al, zie ook bv:
http://teletekst.nos.nl/gif/160-01.html

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 14:17 schreef schatje het volgende:

Waarom niet direct zoals bij het ministerie van de olie??
Het meeste kwaad is nu al geschied, gisteren een Irakees op Sky die zijn huiskamer vol had staan met medicijnen.
De Conventie van Genève is ook volstrekt duidelijk wat dat betreft, Rumsfeld weet dat toch ook wel??
Bovendien heeft het Rode Kruis al vaak genoeg aan de noodbel getrokken.Maar goed, nu is men erachter dat er maatregelen moeten worden genomen.

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 14:20 schreef BAZZA het volgende:

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Waar staat dan dat ze bij dat minesterie staan?

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 14:27 schreef schatje het volgende:

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Dat was op de tv gisteren.

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 14:27 schreef schatje het volgende:

Dat was op de tv gisteren.

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 14:31 schreef BAZZA het volgende:

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Da's mooi, ze staan ook bij het min van defensie en tig andere departementen

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 15:13 schreef schatje het volgende:

Dus ook daar staan letterlijk tanks voor de deur om de toegang te verhinderen??
Bron??

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Military historians say the rash of looting in Iraq is a predictable consequence of the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime that should run its course in a few days when beleaguered civilians literally exhaust the opportunities for plunder.

"We've just let the lid off a pressure cooker," said John Pike, with GlobalSecurity.org, a defense policy think tank in Washington, D.C. "It would have been astonishing if we hadn't seen this."

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld took a similar tack toward the looting, telling reporters in Washington, D.C., on Friday that "stuff happens."

As unseemly as it might appear for television viewers to see the apparent chaos in Baghdad and other occupied cities, Ohio State University Professor Allan Millet said U.S. and British forces have little choice but to stand aside -- because to stop the looting, soldiers would have to shoot civilians.

"Imagine Al-Jazeera covering that," Millett said, referring to the Arab television station that is viewed widely throughout the Middle East.

But Millett, one of the world's foremost authorities on warfare, compared the current looting spree to episodes familiar to Americans, such as the 1992 Rodney King riots in Los Angeles.

"These things usually exhaust themselves after a few days," he said.

Looking back at the long, tragic tale of warfare, historians say looting has always been an unfortunate consequence of conflict, whether perpetrated by conquering armies, self-styled partisans or liberated civilians.

John Mueller, another Ohio State University professor and warfare expert, said the Romans, for instance, didn't offer legionnaires a salary and benefits package.

"Looting and pillaging was a standard way of paying them," Mueller said.

Right up through the Napoleonic wars of the early 19th century, it was more or less expected that victorious soldiers, often recruited from prisons, would get to enjoy "the spoils of war," Mueller said.

The American Civil War was punctuated by repeated instances of looting which, though not sanctioned by the authorities, was nevertheless practiced by uniformed soldiers and irregular partisans on both sides, said historian William Garrett Piston of Southwest Missouri State University.

Pinston's speciality is the brutal, irregular warfare that began in the 1850s in Kansas and Missouri, and continued right through and after the war, with armed bands on both sides of the slavery divide attacking the lands and the peoples on the other side.

"Pro- and anti-slavery advocates both used politics as a cover for theft," Piston said, in an orgy of violence and reprisal that continued long after the South surrendered. In fact legendary outlaws like Jesse James were former wartime partisans who never put down their guns, Piston said.

By the time of the world wars of the 20th century, looting by soldiers was officially frowned upon -- but practiced by both the Germans, who filled warehouses with stolen art and jewelry, and by the eventually victorious allies.

One of the noted cases of American military law is the upholding, in 1946, of the conviction of two U.S. army officers for stealing jewelry from conquered Germans. At their court martial, the officers argued they should be cleared because looting was so commonplace, but the court was unpersuaded, and the ringleader drew a 15-year sentence.

More analogous to the Iraq situation was the reaction of French, Belgian and other civilians in cities liberated by the Allies after D-Day.

"In the Second World War, almost every major city in Europe went through some sort of phase of payback," said Ohio State University's Millett. The first manifestation of these civilian uprisings was the looting of food and other items in short supply. But that property liberation was quickly followed by revenge against collaborators and informers, Millett said.

"There are many, many accounts of Americans appalled by members of the (French) Resistance going after women who had slept with German soldiers," he said.

Indeed, if the past is any precedent, reprisals are likely to follow looting as the next chapter in Iraq's story.

"Thus far it doesn't appear the revenge factor has kicked in," Millett said.

But Pike said he thinks it's only a question of time before the Kurds in the north, who were gassed by Hussein, and the Shiites in the south, long oppressed by the Sunni minority, will look to even local scores.

"There's plenty of payback coming," Pike said, predicting "considerable vendettas and revenge killings."

Copyright © 2003, San Francisco Chronicle

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 13:12 schreef Wile_E_Coyote het volgende:

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Er is een regering in Afghanistan.

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 15:20 schreef BAZZA het volgende:
Plundering not a surprise, experts say
Looting a perk of warfare since time of Roman legionnaires

Copyright © 2003, San Francisco Chronicle

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 19:20 schreef schatje het volgende:

Hallo, heb je er nog een mening bij ofzo??
Het is geen nieuwsdump hiero.

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 19:25 schreef BAZZA het volgende:

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Geef even wat achtergrondinformatie over plunderingen en deze oorlog.
Lees eens, misschien leer je nog wel eens iets

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 19:50 schreef Basp1 het volgende:
Wat ik opvallend aan dit bericht vindt, is dat ze het wel voorspeld hebben, maar niet hiermee van te voren naar buiten durven te komen

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Article 43
The authority of the legitimate power having actually passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all steps in his power to re-establish and insure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

Uit de Haagse Conventie (1954):

Article 4.
3. The High Contracting Parties further undertake to prohibit, prevent and, if necessary, put a stop to any form of theft, pillage or misappropriation of, and any acts of vandalism directed against, cultural property. They shall refrain from requisitioning movable cultural property situated in the territory of another High Contracting Party.

Article 5. Occupation

1. Any High Contracting Party in occupation of the whole or part of the territory of another High Contracting Party shall as far as possible support the competent national authorities of the occupied country in safeguarding and preserving its cultural property.

2. Should it prove necessary to take measures to preserve cultural property situated in occupied territory and damaged by military operations, and should the competent national authorities be unable to take such measures, the Occupying Power shall, as far as possible, and in close co-operation with such authorities, take the most necessary measures of preservation.

http://www.unesco.org/culture/laws/hague/html_eng/page2.shtml#General%20provisions

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 14:30 schreef Wile_E_Coyote het volgende:
Ja, maar de TV is een bolwerk van linkse media, dus dat is allemaal in scene gezet hoor

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Een communist die als arabier wel geholpen moest worden, maar desalniettemin communist.

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Op zondag 13 april 2003 15:20 schreef BAZZA het volgende:
Plundering not a surprise, experts say
Looting a perk of warfare since time of Roman legionnaires

Military historians say the rash of looting in Iraq is a predictable consequence of the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime that should run its course in a few days when beleaguered civilians literally exhaust the opportunities for plunder.

"We've just let the lid off a pressure cooker," said John Pike, with GlobalSecurity.org, a defense policy think tank in Washington, D.C. "It would have been astonishing if we hadn't seen this."

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld took a similar tack toward the looting, telling reporters in Washington, D.C., on Friday that "stuff happens."

As unseemly as it might appear for television viewers to see the apparent chaos in Baghdad and other occupied cities, Ohio State University Professor Allan Millet said U.S. and British forces have little choice but to stand aside -- because to stop the looting, soldiers would have to shoot civilians.

"Imagine Al-Jazeera covering that," Millett said, referring to the Arab television station that is viewed widely throughout the Middle East.

But Millett, one of the world's foremost authorities on warfare, compared the current looting spree to episodes familiar to Americans, such as the 1992 Rodney King riots in Los Angeles.

"These things usually exhaust themselves after a few days," he said.

Looking back at the long, tragic tale of warfare, historians say looting has always been an unfortunate consequence of conflict, whether perpetrated by conquering armies, self-styled partisans or liberated civilians.

John Mueller, another Ohio State University professor and warfare expert, said the Romans, for instance, didn't offer legionnaires a salary and benefits package.

"Looting and pillaging was a standard way of paying them," Mueller said.

Right up through the Napoleonic wars of the early 19th century, it was more or less expected that victorious soldiers, often recruited from prisons, would get to enjoy "the spoils of war," Mueller said.

The American Civil War was punctuated by repeated instances of looting which, though not sanctioned by the authorities, was nevertheless practiced by uniformed soldiers and irregular partisans on both sides, said historian William Garrett Piston of Southwest Missouri State University.

Pinston's speciality is the brutal, irregular warfare that began in the 1850s in Kansas and Missouri, and continued right through and after the war, with armed bands on both sides of the slavery divide attacking the lands and the peoples on the other side.

"Pro- and anti-slavery advocates both used politics as a cover for theft," Piston said, in an orgy of violence and reprisal that continued long after the South surrendered. In fact legendary outlaws like Jesse James were former wartime partisans who never put down their guns, Piston said.

By the time of the world wars of the 20th century, looting by soldiers was officially frowned upon -- but practiced by both the Germans, who filled warehouses with stolen art and jewelry, and by the eventually victorious allies.

One of the noted cases of American military law is the upholding, in 1946, of the conviction of two U.S. army officers for stealing jewelry from conquered Germans. At their court martial, the officers argued they should be cleared because looting was so commonplace, but the court was unpersuaded, and the ringleader drew a 15-year sentence.

More analogous to the Iraq situation was the reaction of French, Belgian and other civilians in cities liberated by the Allies after D-Day.

"In the Second World War, almost every major city in Europe went through some sort of phase of payback," said Ohio State University's Millett. The first manifestation of these civilian uprisings was the looting of food and other items in short supply. But that property liberation was quickly followed by revenge against collaborators and informers, Millett said.

"There are many, many accounts of Americans appalled by members of the (French) Resistance going after women who had slept with German soldiers," he said.

Indeed, if the past is any precedent, reprisals are likely to follow looting as the next chapter in Iraq's story.

"Thus far it doesn't appear the revenge factor has kicked in," Millett said.

But Pike said he thinks it's only a question of time before the Kurds in the north, who were gassed by Hussein, and the Shiites in the south, long oppressed by the Sunni minority, will look to even local scores.

"There's plenty of payback coming," Pike said, predicting "considerable vendettas and revenge killings."

Copyright © 2003, San Francisco Chronicle

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De geschiedenis herhaalt zich, maar gezien de op zichzelf gerichte scholing van de VS, kan ik me heel goed indenken dat ze dat niet weten.

En ja, ik weet het. Die laatse opmerking was een open deur intrappen, en ik zeg niet dat wij dat niet zouden doen ( alhoewel ik dat toch sterk betwijfel ), maar slechte historische kennis breekt vroeg of laat op. Altijd.
Vandaar ook dat de opmerkingen van Herr Rumsfeld over Duitsland die geen oorlog wilde zo stompzinnig en achterlijk zijn. ( Maar da's weer een andere deur. )

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Ancient archive lost in Baghdad library blaze
Oliver Burkeman
The Guardian
April 15, 2003

As flames engulfed Baghdad's National Library yesterday, destroying manuscripts many centuries old, the Pentagon admitted that it had been caught unprepared by the widespread looting of antiquities, despite months of warnings from American archaeologists.

But defence department officials denied accusations by British archaeologists that the US government was succumbing to pressure from private collectors in America to allow plundered Iraqi treasures to be traded on the open market.

Almost nothing remains of the library's archive of tens of thousands of manuscripts, books, and Iraqi newspapers, according to reports from the scene.

It joins a list that already includes the capital's National Museum, one of the world's most important troves of artefacts from the ancient Sumerian, Babylonian and Assyrian civilisations.

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blijkbaar wil de VS niks overlaten van iraaks historisch erfgoed.. alle kennis word vernield zodat ze de volgende generaties kunnen indoctrineren met dezelfde geschiedvervalsing zoals wij die al ondergaan

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"The United States and Britain are among the few nations of the world to have refused signing The Hague Convention on the protection of cultural heritage during hostilities.

Almost nothing remains of the library's archive of tens of thousands of manuscripts, books, and Iraqi newspapers, according to reports from the scene.

It joins a list that already includes the capital's National Museum, one of the world's most important troves of artefacts from the ancient Sumerian, Babylonian and Assyrian civilisations.

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