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pi_207725982
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:49 schreef Anton91 het volgende:

[..]
Oekrane heeft toch in het begin meerdere Soviet jets gekregen?
Marokko gaat in ieder geval soviet tanks leveren aan Oekrane.
Allah Al Watan Al Malik
pi_207725989
quote:
7s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:52 schreef ExTec het volgende:

[..]
Misschien moet je je eens afvragen of deze topic reeks wel de plek is waar jij je obsessie met die dingen kunt bevredigen.

Zomaar een idee.
Jouw lage intelligentie helpt zeker niet mee nee. Obsessie? Dude. Wat ik zei: het is gewoon theoretisch. Deze discussie was er ook al in de koude oorlog. Hadden Reagan, Kruschev, etc. een obsessie? Nee, die dachten gewoon rationeel na over de wereld in die tijd.

Je bent zo verschrikkelijk kinderachtig met je circlejerk steeds.
A Robin Redbreast in a Cage Puts all Heaven in a Rage.
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 20:57:50 #278
37149 slashdotter3
Arrow to the knee!
pi_207726010
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:55 schreef Discombobulate het volgende:

[..]
Nou en? Als ze aan het verliezen zijn, breng dan alles er maar mee ten onder. Zo'n resentiment kan ik zeker wel begrijpen. Moet je nagaan als je de machtigste man bent van een land en totaal ideologisch bevlogen. Voor hem is het leven of dood. Oja en wellicht kanker.
Zelfs het bloedfanatieke Japan en Nazi-Duitsland gingen daar niet toe over maar deze keer zal het heus wel anders zijn hoor!
  Overall beste user 2022 donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 20:59:09 #280
3928 Ulx
you aint no punk you punk
pi_207726027
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
pi_207726076
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:58 schreef Tocadisco het volgende:

[..]
Zelfs het bloedfanatieke Japan en Nazi-Duitsland gingen daar niet toe over maar deze keer zal het heus wel anders zijn hoor!
Die hadden die optie ook helemaal niet. De VS wel. En die hebben daar vaker over nagedacht: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_of_Douglas_MacArthur
A Robin Redbreast in a Cage Puts all Heaven in a Rage.
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:03:59 #282
6484 ExTec
<subtitle here>
pi_207726141
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:57 schreef Discombobulate het volgende:
Wat ik zei: het is gewoon theoretisch.
Ik weet het. Vrijwel iedereen weet het hier. Je wil hier, dag in, dag uit graag praten over de "theoretische mogelijkheid dat er noeks gebruikt worden".

:z
&lt;signature here&gt;.
pi_207726151
Western Tanks Are Coming to Ukraine, but Will They Be Enough?

Western allies have pledged to send at least 105 tanks, far less than Ukraine says it needs, and it may be months before they join the battle.

The decisions by Germany and the United States to send battle tanks to Ukraine, reversing months of resistance, on Wednesday prompted additional pledges from across Europe and predictions of victory over Russia. But it may be months before the tanks rumble across the battlefield.

“These can help Ukraine to defend itself, win and prevail as an independent nation,” said Jens Stoltenberg, NATO’s secretary general. “Soon to be a regular sight prowling the fields of Ukraine,” Britain’s Defense Ministry crowed in a Twitter post with a photo of a German Leopard 2 tank and a British-made Challenger 2 tank chewing up a muddy training field in Poland.

But not that soon. Ukrainian troops still need to be trained to use the powerful Western war machines, and moving them into the conflict zone is far from an easy task. The tanks that were promised by Berlin and Washington will not be delivered until spring or summer at the earliest — not in time to help Ukraine defend hotly contested towns and cities near Bakhmut, in the country’s east, where Russian forces have been recently advancing in a grueling ground assault.

The more immediate payoff from the announcements on Wednesday may be in providing a pathway for about a dozen other European countries to donate their own German-made Leopard 2s to Ukraine — a step that would not have been taken without Berlin’s consent and a parallel promise by Washington to contribute its M1 Abrams tanks.

“Sending the Abrams appears to have been the key to unlocking the Leopards, which will probably get to Ukraine much faster,” said Sophia Besch, an expert on European defense issues at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington.

Here is a look at what happens next.

Which countries are donating Western tanks, and how many?

The biggest donation is coming from the United States — 31 M1 Abrams, enough to supply one Ukrainian military battalion. The Abrams is one of the most sophisticated tank systems in the world, but it requires specific training, technology for its parts and generally on specialized fuels to keep it running dependably. On Wednesday, American officials said it would be at least months before the Abrams could be delivered — and would not elaborate — although other experts said it could take at least a year.

Britain, Germany and Poland have each committed to sending 14 tanks, with London predicting delivery of its Challenger 2s within weeks. Germany’s defense minister, Boris Pistorius, forecast it would take Berlin three or four months to ship its Leopard 2 tanks.

Poland has signaled it is already prepared to send its own Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. Portugal has said it could give four Leopard 2s, and Norway has said it could send eight more. Other pledges to give Leopard 2s — but without specifying how many — have been made by Spain, Finland and the Netherlands. And France is considering giving Ukraine an unspecified number of its Leclerc battle tanks.

Additionally, Denmark has said it could send 20 Swiss-made Piranha tanks to Ukraine once the government in Bern agrees they could be re-exported — a process that moved forward last weekend after being stalled for months.

In all, that means at least 105 Western tanks have been committed — in principle at least.

Is that enough?

Ukrainian military officials have long said they need at least 300 Western tanks to make a difference in the war. That “is a lot of tanks at the national level,” according to an analysis on Wednesday by Janes, the London-based intelligence firm.

European militaries are holding at least 2,000 Leopard 2 tanks — and hundreds of other kinds of Western battle tanks. The Russians also have thousands of tanks still available in what has become a war of rapid attrition, said David Silbey, a military historian at Cornell University who specializes in battlefield analysis.

“The West will never manage a one-to-one match for those numbers,” Mr. Silbey said. “But, given the quality advantage of the Leopard or Abrams over even the most modern Russian tank, if the West could supply 500 to 1,000 tanks, it would make a massive difference to the Ukrainians and to the war.”

When will Ukrainian troops be ready to use them?

Some will be arriving in British training camps in the coming days to start training on the Challenger 2 tanks that London committed to this month, according to Vadym Prystaiko, Ukraine’s ambassador to the United Kingdom.

Some former military officials and experts have challenged claims — mostly by the United States — that it could take months to train Ukraine’s forces to use the tanks. They note that the Ukrainian troops selected to crew them will have already been trained on Soviet-era tanks. So learning to operate the Leopard 2 tanks, which run on diesel fuel and are easier to operate than M1 Abrams, could take only three to four weeks “to achieve a basic proficiency,” the International Institute for Strategic Studies said this month.

American officials, who briefed journalists on condition of anonymity on Wednesday, described a far more complicated process for the M1 Abrams, involving training not just for operating the tanks, but also for maintaining them. Part of that process will involve building a stable supply chain to ensure the tanks are getting the fuel, parts and other assistance they would need on the front lines.

While the Abrams may not arrive on the battlefield for what one U.S. official described as “some time,” training Ukrainian troops to use them will begin quickly. Already, American troops in Germany are training Ukrainian forces on a range of combined and coordinated weapons, including armored combat vehicles.

Will they have enough ammunition?

Dwindling supplies of ammunition have been a bane for Ukraine’s forces almost since the start of the war, reliant as they are on diminishing stores of munitions that fit their Soviet-era tanks and other weapons. Captured Russian tanks have been an essential stop gap for Ukraine, but spare parts for them are often hard to acquire, according to Ukrainian soldiers.

The Western-made tanks use ammunition that is compatible with NATO stocks, meaning that they could be replenished by any of the 30 member states of the military alliance or their partners. The tanks will be delivered with some extra ammunition supplies. Still, the war has so drained Western stockpiles that some allies are growing nervous about whether they will have enough for other potential conflicts or even their own self-defense.

While the new Western tanks are essential for any future Ukrainian offensive operations, they may prove a headache for Ukraine’s legions of supply officers. The German and American tanks have different parts and maintenance regimes, and both fire types of ammunition different from those of the Soviet-era tanks that Ukraine currently fields.

How will they get to the battlefield?

The process of delivering Western weapons and other military equipment to Ukraine has been one of the most heavily guarded secrets of the war.

Concerns that Russia will target roads, railways or staging grounds for the matriel has required what officials and experts described as stealthy convoys, usually disguised or cloaked in darkness, to evade attack. Former Western military officials and experts described a patchwork of delivery routes, largely originating from hubs in Poland, Slovakia and Germany, that will be crucial to getting tanks, armored fighting vehicles and huge guns to the front line.

Most of the weapons will be shipped either on rail cars or flatbed trucks that are strong enough to carry their huge weight. Rail is generally the fastest and safest way to move armor, experts said, given that long convoys of flatbed trucks would most likely attract Russia’s attention. It would take too much time, fuel and spare parts to drive the tanks and other armored vehicles to the battlefield, experts said. They would also become, in essence, a moving target for Russian warplanes.

The risks are so daunting — and worries over provoking Russia are so high — that, instead of Western forces or contractors delivering them to the conflict zone, Ukrainian troops are required to retrieve the weapons from depots in NATO territory.

NY Times
pi_207726223
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:55 schreef michaelmoore het volgende:

[..]
de meesten generaals dan
[..]
ja de 3 nuke is teruggekeerd
Bron?
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:09:08 #285
37149 slashdotter3
Arrow to the knee!
pi_207726241
quote:
Tering wat een saai/slecht filmpje zeg... na de 1e drie minuten heb ik het maar weer uitgezet omdat ik er niets wijzer van werd. Hoe kan dat kanaal 793k subscribers hebben?
pi_207726252
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 21:01 schreef Discombobulate het volgende:

[..]
Die hadden die optie ook helemaal niet. De VS wel. En die hebben daar vaker over nagedacht: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_of_Douglas_MacArthur
Nee, ze hadden geen toegang tot nucleaire wapens. Maar ze hadden wel degelijk de middelen om enorme verwoestingen aan te richten onder het motto "maakt toch niets meer uit als we verliezen" (Hitler had ook daadwerkelijk zo'n bevel uitgevaardigt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Decree) maar in de praktijk zijn wordt het nooit uitgevoerd. Uiteindelijk zijn er altijd wel voldoende mensen die besluiten dat ze wel iets hebben om voor te leven en ik zie niet in waarom dat nu in Rusland anders zou moeten zijn. Al helemaal omdat er onder Poetin niet veel meer dan een verzameling dieven zit die toch alleen maar meewaaien met wat voor wind ze het meeste geld oplevert.
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:14:12 #287
6484 ExTec
<subtitle here>
pi_207726354
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:58 schreef Tocadisco het volgende:

[..]
Zelfs het bloedfanatieke Japan en Nazi-Duitsland gingen daar niet toe over maar deze keer zal het heus wel anders zijn hoor!
De man met de snor gaf ook de opdracht aan het einde om heel DE te vernietigen. Want DE verdiende het niet meer om te bestaan ofzo. Alleen: aan heel veel van zijn opdrachten werd geen gehoor gegeven.

Zou je toch een aardig idee moeten geven van wat er waarschijnlijk gebeurt op het moment dat het top wappie het in z'n bol krijgt en denkt: na mij de zondvloed. Want tja, dat loop je tegen het feit aan dat lang niet iedereen het bestaan op wil geven.

Maar dat zijn aan dovemans oren gerichte argumenten, voor zij die :"de hele dag, elke dag, willen praten over de theoretische mogelijkheid dat er noeks gebruikt worden".
&lt;signature here&gt;.
pi_207726401
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:50 schreef Discombobulate het volgende:

[..]
Het is gewoon puur een theoretische discussie. Steeds "NOOEEKS" om het onderwerp af te breken is ook irritant. Hangt per user af trouwens. De n reageert wel normaal en de ander loop gelijk weer te kankeren. Kinderachtig gedrag wel steeds.
Op een gegeven moment is de discussie wel gevoerd, als geen van beide kanten in wil binden of concreet met wat nieuws komt, dan kun je er beter mee stoppen. Of vervolgen in een apart topic.
  Overall beste user 2022 donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:17:00 #289
3928 Ulx
you aint no punk you punk
pi_207726406
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 21:09 schreef slashdotter3 het volgende:

[..]
Tering wat een saai/slecht filmpje zeg... na de 1e drie minuten heb ik het maar weer uitgezet omdat ik er niets wijzer van werd. Hoe kan dat kanaal 793k subscribers hebben?
Geen idee, maar ik vond het wel een heldere uitleg.
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:17:57 #290
37149 slashdotter3
Arrow to the knee!
pi_207726429
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 21:04 schreef AchJa het volgende:
Western Tanks Are Coming to Ukraine, but Will They Be Enough?

Western allies have pledged to send at least 105 tanks, far less than Ukraine says it needs, and it may be months before they join the battle.

The decisions by Germany and the United States to send battle tanks to Ukraine, reversing months of resistance, on Wednesday prompted additional pledges from across Europe and predictions of victory over Russia. But it may be months before the tanks rumble across the battlefield.

“These can help Ukraine to defend itself, win and prevail as an independent nation,” said Jens Stoltenberg, NATO’s secretary general. “Soon to be a regular sight prowling the fields of Ukraine,” Britain’s Defense Ministry crowed in a Twitter post with a photo of a German Leopard 2 tank and a British-made Challenger 2 tank chewing up a muddy training field in Poland.

But not that soon. Ukrainian troops still need to be trained to use the powerful Western war machines, and moving them into the conflict zone is far from an easy task. The tanks that were promised by Berlin and Washington will not be delivered until spring or summer at the earliest — not in time to help Ukraine defend hotly contested towns and cities near Bakhmut, in the country’s east, where Russian forces have been recently advancing in a grueling ground assault.

The more immediate payoff from the announcements on Wednesday may be in providing a pathway for about a dozen other European countries to donate their own German-made Leopard 2s to Ukraine — a step that would not have been taken without Berlin’s consent and a parallel promise by Washington to contribute its M1 Abrams tanks.

“Sending the Abrams appears to have been the key to unlocking the Leopards, which will probably get to Ukraine much faster,” said Sophia Besch, an expert on European defense issues at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington.

Here is a look at what happens next.

Which countries are donating Western tanks, and how many?

The biggest donation is coming from the United States — 31 M1 Abrams, enough to supply one Ukrainian military battalion. The Abrams is one of the most sophisticated tank systems in the world, but it requires specific training, technology for its parts and generally on specialized fuels to keep it running dependably. On Wednesday, American officials said it would be at least months before the Abrams could be delivered — and would not elaborate — although other experts said it could take at least a year.

Britain, Germany and Poland have each committed to sending 14 tanks, with London predicting delivery of its Challenger 2s within weeks. Germany’s defense minister, Boris Pistorius, forecast it would take Berlin three or four months to ship its Leopard 2 tanks.

Poland has signaled it is already prepared to send its own Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. Portugal has said it could give four Leopard 2s, and Norway has said it could send eight more. Other pledges to give Leopard 2s — but without specifying how many — have been made by Spain, Finland and the Netherlands. And France is considering giving Ukraine an unspecified number of its Leclerc battle tanks.

Additionally, Denmark has said it could send 20 Swiss-made Piranha tanks to Ukraine once the government in Bern agrees they could be re-exported — a process that moved forward last weekend after being stalled for months.

In all, that means at least 105 Western tanks have been committed — in principle at least.

Is that enough?

Ukrainian military officials have long said they need at least 300 Western tanks to make a difference in the war. That “is a lot of tanks at the national level,” according to an analysis on Wednesday by Janes, the London-based intelligence firm.

European militaries are holding at least 2,000 Leopard 2 tanks — and hundreds of other kinds of Western battle tanks. The Russians also have thousands of tanks still available in what has become a war of rapid attrition, said David Silbey, a military historian at Cornell University who specializes in battlefield analysis.

“The West will never manage a one-to-one match for those numbers,” Mr. Silbey said. “But, given the quality advantage of the Leopard or Abrams over even the most modern Russian tank, if the West could supply 500 to 1,000 tanks, it would make a massive difference to the Ukrainians and to the war.”

When will Ukrainian troops be ready to use them?

Some will be arriving in British training camps in the coming days to start training on the Challenger 2 tanks that London committed to this month, according to Vadym Prystaiko, Ukraine’s ambassador to the United Kingdom.

Some former military officials and experts have challenged claims — mostly by the United States — that it could take months to train Ukraine’s forces to use the tanks. They note that the Ukrainian troops selected to crew them will have already been trained on Soviet-era tanks. So learning to operate the Leopard 2 tanks, which run on diesel fuel and are easier to operate than M1 Abrams, could take only three to four weeks “to achieve a basic proficiency,” the International Institute for Strategic Studies said this month.

American officials, who briefed journalists on condition of anonymity on Wednesday, described a far more complicated process for the M1 Abrams, involving training not just for operating the tanks, but also for maintaining them. Part of that process will involve building a stable supply chain to ensure the tanks are getting the fuel, parts and other assistance they would need on the front lines.

While the Abrams may not arrive on the battlefield for what one U.S. official described as “some time,” training Ukrainian troops to use them will begin quickly. Already, American troops in Germany are training Ukrainian forces on a range of combined and coordinated weapons, including armored combat vehicles.

Will they have enough ammunition?

Dwindling supplies of ammunition have been a bane for Ukraine’s forces almost since the start of the war, reliant as they are on diminishing stores of munitions that fit their Soviet-era tanks and other weapons. Captured Russian tanks have been an essential stop gap for Ukraine, but spare parts for them are often hard to acquire, according to Ukrainian soldiers.

The Western-made tanks use ammunition that is compatible with NATO stocks, meaning that they could be replenished by any of the 30 member states of the military alliance or their partners. The tanks will be delivered with some extra ammunition supplies. Still, the war has so drained Western stockpiles that some allies are growing nervous about whether they will have enough for other potential conflicts or even their own self-defense.

While the new Western tanks are essential for any future Ukrainian offensive operations, they may prove a headache for Ukraine’s legions of supply officers. The German and American tanks have different parts and maintenance regimes, and both fire types of ammunition different from those of the Soviet-era tanks that Ukraine currently fields.

How will they get to the battlefield?

The process of delivering Western weapons and other military equipment to Ukraine has been one of the most heavily guarded secrets of the war.

Concerns that Russia will target roads, railways or staging grounds for the matriel has required what officials and experts described as stealthy convoys, usually disguised or cloaked in darkness, to evade attack. Former Western military officials and experts described a patchwork of delivery routes, largely originating from hubs in Poland, Slovakia and Germany, that will be crucial to getting tanks, armored fighting vehicles and huge guns to the front line.

Most of the weapons will be shipped either on rail cars or flatbed trucks that are strong enough to carry their huge weight. Rail is generally the fastest and safest way to move armor, experts said, given that long convoys of flatbed trucks would most likely attract Russia’s attention. It would take too much time, fuel and spare parts to drive the tanks and other armored vehicles to the battlefield, experts said. They would also become, in essence, a moving target for Russian warplanes.

The risks are so daunting — and worries over provoking Russia are so high — that, instead of Western forces or contractors delivering them to the conflict zone, Ukrainian troops are required to retrieve the weapons from depots in NATO territory.

NY Times
Die oorlog duurt nog wel even.
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:21:47 #292
37149 slashdotter3
Arrow to the knee!
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:22:47 #293
323876 michaelmoore
I want to live a hundred years
pi_207726544
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 21:09 schreef Tocadisco het volgende:

[..]
Nee, ze hadden geen toegang tot nucleaire wapens. Maar ze hadden wel degelijk de middelen om enorme verwoestingen aan te richten onder het motto "maakt toch niets meer uit als we verliezen" (Hitler had ook daadwerkelijk zo'n bevel uitgevaardigt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Decree) maar in de praktijk zijn wordt het nooit uitgevoerd. Uiteindelijk zijn er altijd wel voldoende mensen die besluiten dat ze wel iets hebben om voor te leven en ik zie niet in waarom dat nu in Rusland anders zou moeten zijn. Al helemaal omdat er onder Poetin niet veel meer dan een verzameling dieven zit die toch alleen maar meewaaien met wat voor wind ze het meeste geld oplevert.
zeker het Russische leger zit vol met corrupte generaals die dol zijn op het rijke corrupte leven en een kernbom absoluut zullen tegenhouden
When people do counterfeiting , they go to jail , when public servants do that they get re-elected
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:22:58 #294
37149 slashdotter3
Arrow to the knee!
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:23:58 #295
323876 michaelmoore
I want to live a hundred years
pi_207726577
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 21:17 schreef Nebelwerfer het volgende:

[..]
Die oorlog duurt nog wel even.
Dat weet je nooit

Meestal als allebei de vechtersbazen uitgebreid hun spierballen laten zien, is het einde soms nabij

When people do counterfeiting , they go to jail , when public servants do that they get re-elected
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:24:39 #296
37149 slashdotter3
Arrow to the knee!
pi_207726618
quote:
1s.gif Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 20:50 schreef Lospedrosa het volgende:
Voor de liefhebbers van geweld en de wereld van veiligheidsdiensten, snipers en knappe joodse vrouwen, Fauda seizoen 4 is uit op Netflix. ^O^
Seizoen 1 ooit begonnen misschien nog een kans geven..

https://www.netflix.com/title/80119382?s=i&trkid=13747225

Ik zag deze staan. Heeft iemand hem gezien en kijkt hij zo surrealistisch als hoe ik denk dat hij kijkt?
pi_207726639
Kleine faal *
  donderdag 26 januari 2023 @ 21:31:41 #300
37149 slashdotter3
Arrow to the knee!
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