[AMV] Amerikaanse politiek #686 Volker testifies

twitter:

rgoodlaw twitterde op dinsdag 19-11-2019 om 23:31:47 Volker: Why not investigate if nothing there.🥴Because the WHOLE point of Trump-Giuliani was simply to create aura of ongoing investigation of Biden (as @AshaRangappa_ has explained)Burisma investigation was to Biden and 2020asemails investigation was to Clinton and 2016 reageer retweet

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Op dinsdag 19 november 2019 23:42 schreef heywoodu het volgende:
Dat iedereen gepresenteerd wordt als het grote hoofd van de Amerikaans-Oekraļnse relaties vind ik wel een beetje verwarrend, moet ik bekennen.

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Op dinsdag 19 november 2019 23:41 schreef Kijkertje het volgende:

twitter:

rgoodlaw twitterde op dinsdag 19-11-2019 om 23:31:47 Volker: Why not investigate if nothing there.🥴Because the WHOLE point of Trump-Giuliani was simply to create aura of ongoing investigation of Biden (as @:AshaRangappa_ has explained)Burisma investigation was to Biden and 2020asemails investigation was to Clinton and 2016 reageer retweet

Dit ook. Blijkbaar komt het niet in Volker op dat een onderzoek naar de Bidens de verkiezingen van 2020 beinvloedt net als het onderzoek naar de emails van Clinton dat deed? Ik kan me dat niet voorstellen.

twitter:

rgoodlaw twitterde op dinsdag 19-11-2019 om 23:38:07 @AshaRangappa_ Plus as Vindman explained in his deposition ... Asking a corrupt system to investigate a political opponent is likely to end up in a very, very, very bad place including fabricated information.Here's Vindman: https://t.co/eMyEH1Otcn reageer retweet

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 00:10 schreef ExtraWaskracht het volgende:

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Yovanovitch was ambassadeur voor Oekraine en werd opgevolgd door Taylor.

Sondland is de ambassadeur voor de Europese Unie.

Kent werkt voor Buitenlandse Zaken en is vice voorzitter (deputy assistent secretary) van de afdeling Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs.

Vindman werkt in het Witte Huis voor de National Security Counsel als hoofd Europese zaken.

Williams werkt voor Buitenlandse Zaken en werkte van daaruit tijdelijk voor Pence als adviseur Europese en Russische zaken.

Hill was de baas van Vindman in het Witte Huis als senior hoofd Europese en Russische zaken. Zij is opgevolgd door Morrison die die rol tot 31 oktober vervulde.

Bolton was hun baas weer.

Volker werkte voor Buitenlandse Zaken als speciaal afgevaardigde voor Oekraine. In feite iemand die van het ministerie mee gaat met ontmoetingen tussen de VS en Oekraine zoals ik het begrijp.

Simpel toch? :p

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 00:18 schreef heywoodu het volgende:
Nunes zegt nu letterlijk dat dit twee getuigen van de Democraten zijn. Wat.

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U.S. breaks off defense cost talks, as South Korea balks at $5 billion demand

The breakdown in talks was a rare public sign of discord in the “airtight” alliance that has for 70 years formed a buffer against North Korean aggression, with each side blaming the other for being unprepared to compromise on sharing the costs of keeping 28,500 U.S. military personnel in South Korea.

U.S. President Donald Trump has insisted that South Korea pay more - and has also suggested pulling the troops out altogether.

“It is true that there is a substantial difference between the U.S. side’s overall proposal and the principles we pursue,” South Korean negotiator Jeong Eun-bo told a news conference. “The talks could not proceed as planned as the U.S. side left first.”

[..]

South Korean lawmakers have said the United States is seeking up to $5 billion a year, more than five times the 1.04 trillion won ($890.54 million) South Korea agreed to pay this year.

Neither side has publicly confirmed the numbers, but Trump has said the U.S. military presence in and around South Korea was “$5 billion worth of protection”.

[..]

The meeting in Seoul ended early, after about 80 minutes, followed by a rare news conference by U.S. negotiator James DeHart.

DeHart said the Americans broke off the talks to give the South Korean side “time to reconsider”.

“Unfortunately, the proposals that were put forward by the Korean negotiating team were not responsive to our request for fair and equitable burden sharing,” DeHart told a briefing.

Kim Hong-kyun, a former South Korean nuclear negotiator, said the collapse of the talks sent a jarring message.

“It’s upsetting that the United States is employing brinkmanship in negotiations with a key ally, which shows eroding trust in the alliance built on shared values,” he told Reuters.

[..]

“South Korea is a wealthy country. They can and should contribute more,” Esper said during a trip to the Philippines.

Jeong declined to go into details of the negotiations but the Yonhap news agency reported the United States wanted South Korea to pay for more categories of expenses.

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Last year, South Korea provided about $830 million, roughly 40 percent of the cost of the deployment of 28,500 U.S. soldiers whose presence is meant to deter aggression from North Korea. President Donald Trump has said South Korea should pay more.

On Sunday, chief negotiators from the two countries signed a new cost-sharing plan, which requires South Korea to pay about $924 million in 2019, Seoul's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 00:53 schreef heywoodu het volgende:
Jim Jordan, hoera.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 01:05 schreef crystal_meth het volgende:

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lol, ik luister enkel, staat in de background te spelen, maar toen die begon te brullen heb ik toch even gekeken...

twitter:

kylegriffin1 twitterde op woensdag 20-11-2019 om 02:30:05 SCHIFF: My Republicans colleagues all they seem to be upset about ... is not that the president sought an investigation of his political rival, not that he withheld a W.H. meeting and $400m in aid … their objection is he got caught. Their objection is someone blew the whistle. reageer retweet

twitter:

kylegriffin1 twitterde op woensdag 20-11-2019 om 03:55:19 Here's that closing statement from Schiff, via ABC. It's worth a watch."My Republicans colleagues, all they seem to be upset about with this is not that the president sought an investigation of his political rival ... Their objection is he got caught."https://t.co/M8r8JLrH61 reageer retweet

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Big Tech’s Toughest Opponent Says She’s Just Getting Started

Margrethe Vestager won praise for her oversight of the tech industry. Now, with more authority from the European Union, she envisions a more aggressive agenda.

“We do not leave it to market forces to have the final say,” Margrethe Vestager said.
“We do not leave it to market forces to have the final say,” Margrethe Vestager said.Credit...Ans Brys for The New York Times
By Adam Satariano and Matina Stevis-Gridneff

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Op dinsdag 19 november 2019 23:42 schreef heywoodu het volgende:
Dat iedereen gepresenteerd wordt als het grote hoofd van de Amerikaans-Oekraļnse relaties vind ik wel een beetje verwarrend, moet ik bekennen.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 07:38 schreef Refragmental het volgende:

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Niet vreemd toch. Iedereen die een beetje anti-Trump is en moet getuigen is HET BESTE SINDS GESNEDEN BROOD!!!

Intussen lijkt het hele democraten kaartenhuis in elkaar te vallen, worden "getuigen" op leugens betrapt, en doet Schiff tig keer ingrijpen met zn eigen leugens waardoor het steeds op een kangaroo court lijkt.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 07:38 schreef Refragmental het volgende:

[..]

Niet vreemd toch. Iedereen die een beetje anti-Trump is en moet getuigen is HET BESTE SINDS GESNEDEN BROOD!!!

Intussen lijkt het hele democraten kaartenhuis in elkaar te vallen, worden "getuigen" op leugens betrapt, en doet Schiff tig keer ingrijpen met zn eigen leugens waardoor het steeds op een kangaroo court lijkt.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 07:40 schreef trein2000 het volgende:

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Ik heb Schiff enkel zien interrumperen bij flagrante schendingen van de regels en bij pogingen de identiteit van de klokkenluider te ontfutselen...

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 07:38 schreef Refragmental het volgende:

[..]

Niet vreemd toch. Iedereen die een beetje anti-Trump is en moet getuigen is HET BESTE SINDS GESNEDEN BROOD!!!

Intussen lijkt het hele democraten kaartenhuis in elkaar te vallen, worden "getuigen" op leugens betrapt, en doet Schiff tig keer ingrijpen met zn eigen leugens waardoor het steeds op een kangaroo court lijkt.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 07:38 schreef Refragmental het volgende:

[..]

Niet vreemd toch. Iedereen die een beetje anti-Trump is en moet getuigen is HET BESTE SINDS GESNEDEN BROOD!!!

Intussen lijkt het hele democraten kaartenhuis in elkaar te vallen, worden "getuigen" op leugens betrapt, en doet Schiff tig keer ingrijpen met zn eigen leugens waardoor het steeds op een kangaroo court lijkt.

twitter:

jimsciutto twitterde op dinsdag 19-11-2019 om 23:30:47 Trump/GOP hoped Volker would be a helpful witness. Instead he:- Called both Biden corruption & Ukrainian interference in 2016 “conspiracy theories”- Amended prior testimony to admit Sondland did bring up investigations in July 10 mtg & all present deemed that “inappropriate” reageer retweet

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:17 schreef Ulx het volgende:
Volgens mij wil niemand voor Trump de gevangenis is.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 07:38 schreef Refragmental het volgende:

[..]

Niet vreemd toch. Iedereen die een beetje anti-Trump is en moet getuigen is HET BESTE SINDS GESNEDEN BROOD!!!

Intussen lijkt het hele democraten kaartenhuis in elkaar te vallen, worden "getuigen" op leugens betrapt, en doet Schiff tig keer ingrijpen met zn eigen leugens waardoor het steeds op een kangaroo court lijkt.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:32 schreef Em31 het volgende:
Goede getuigen hadden de Republikeinen opgeroepen.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 07:38 schreef Refragmental het volgende:

[..]

Niet vreemd toch. Iedereen die een beetje anti-Trump is en moet getuigen is HET BESTE SINDS GESNEDEN BROOD!!!

Intussen lijkt het hele democraten kaartenhuis in elkaar te vallen, worden "getuigen" op leugens betrapt, en doet Schiff tig keer ingrijpen met zn eigen leugens waardoor het steeds op een kangaroo court lijkt.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:32 schreef Em31 het volgende:
Goede getuigen hadden de Republikeinen opgeroepen.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:33 schreef Beathoven het volgende:

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Waar is "president" Trump eigenlijk die je zo graag in de bankjes zou willen zien zitten.

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Tuesday’s impeachment hearings were a disaster for Republicans

Even their own witnesses said damaging stuff.

In theory, the makeup of Tuesday’s House Intelligence impeachment hearings could have led to a balanced day, with some good news for Democrats and some for Republicans.

The first part of the hearing featured testimony from two witnesses called by the Democrats: Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, a National Security Council official who listened in on President Trump’s call with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky, and Jennifer Williams, a foreign policy adviser to Vice President Mike Pence. The second part was devoted to two witnesses called by the Republicans: former US ambassador to Ukraine Kurt Volker and former Trump foreign policy adviser Tim Morrison.

But Tuesday’s testimony was, from practically top to bottom, a disaster for the president and his Republican allies.

All four of the witnesses confirmed key parts of the overall case against the president — that he twisted US foreign policy into a tool of his reelection campaign by using military aid in an effort force Ukraine into opening an investigation into the Biden family. In one particularly striking example, Volker — one of the GOP witnesses — amended his earlier closed-door deposition to clarify that the administration’s behavior was shadier than he had previously thought.

Meanwhile, the Republicans on the intelligence committee, from ranking member Devin Nunes on down, did not present a consistent and compelling counternarrative. They did little to contest the facts, preferring instead to attack the media, the whistleblower whose complaint kicked off this saga, or the witnesses themselves.

The day underscored the fundamental fact of the situation: Trump did what Democrats are accusing him of doing. The only issue is whether congressional Republicans are willing to punish him for it.

Tuesday’s testimony made Trump look awful
Vindman and Williams were both important witnesses because they listened in on Trump’s now-infamous July 25 call with Zelensky, and both found it concerning. That’s the one where Trump pivots from a discussion of US military aid to Ukraine to asking Zelensky to “do me a favor though:” investigating Burisma, the Ukrainian company that had Hunter Biden on the board, and a conspiracy theory about Ukraine’s role in the 2016 election.

Vindman testified that he raised concerns about the call inside the US government, saying that he interpreted it as an “improper ... demand” that “a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen and political opponent.” Williams said it was “unusual,” unlike any other similar call she had been on because it “involved discussion of what appeared to be a domestic political matter.”

They were two people who heard what Trump said in real time testifying, under oath, that they thought there was something off about it. One is a decorated career military officer, the other a National Security Council staffer who worked for Vice President Mike Pence. It’s exceptionally implausible that Williams and Vindman are out to get Trump, and much easier to believe that they’re government employees who were genuinely worried about the president’s behavior.

Vindman underscored this point in his opening testimony, which included a moving reflection on his immigrant background. He moved here from the Soviet Union at four years old, described himself as committed to serving the country that saved his family from totalitarianism, and at one point directly reassured his father, who brought him to the US, that challenging the country’s leadership was safe.

“Dad, I’m sitting here today in the US Capitol. Talking to our elected officials is proof that you made the right decision 40 years ago to leave the Soviet Union and come here to the United States of America in search of a better life for our family,” Vindman said. “Do not worry. I will be fine for telling the truth.”

Vindman — also an Iraq War veteran with a Purple Heart — is very hard to dismiss as a left-wing Democratic plant.

Morrison and Volker, the witnesses who were supposed to be good for Republicans, also ended up confirming key parts of the case against Trump.

Daniel Goldman, the Democratic counsel who handled much of the questioning, asked Morrison about a conversation he had with Trump’s ambassador to the EU, Gordon Sondland. [url=Morrison testified]Morrison testified[/url] that Sondland described another conversation, with Ukrainian official Andriy Yermak, in which he made it very clear that there was a quid pro quo on the table.

“[Sondland told Yermak] that the Ukrainians would have to have the prosecutor general make a statement with respect to the investigations as a condition of having the aid lifted,” he said.

Volker recalled another moment involving Sondland — a July 10 meeting between US and Ukrainian officials. Previously, Volker had said the meeting was uneventful. But on Tuesday, he amended his testimony to say that Sondland had inappropriately raised the question of “investigations” during the conversation.

“Ambassador Sondland made a generic comment about investigations,” Volker said. “I think all of us thought it was inappropriate.”

This is consistent with testimony from Vindman, who had been at the same meeting and recalled the same sequence of events (he also said then-National Security Adviser John Bolton shut down the meeting to cut off Sondland’s inappropriate comments). There were a lot of similarly consistent accounts across the entire day of testimony — and, on the whole, they make the president look really bad.

What’s the Republican defense?

It’s hard to know what, exactly, the overall Republican defense against these allegations was supposed to be.

There were a few effective moments — Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-NY), for example, got the witnesses to say that the Ukrainians did not seem aware at first that aid was being withheld, suggesting this means there could not have been a quid pro quo exchange between aid and investigations:

twitter:

atrupar twitterde op woensdag 20-11-2019 om 01:32:31 Elise Stefanik defends Trump by highlighting how, according to Volker, Ukrainian officials weren't explicitly informed that military aid was being held up as leverage to get them to conduct investigations of political benefit to Trump https://t.co/R0axr5zGf3 reageer retweet

This line of question is deeply misleading: Once the Ukrainians were made aware of the aid being withheld, it quickly became clear to them that it was being blocked as part of a quid pro quo for a Biden investigation. What’s more, aid wasn’t the only thing: There was also a clear offer of a White House visit, which Zelensky very much wanted, in exchange for investigations.

As a matter of political theater, Stefanik got Republicans some useful soundbites. But that’s pretty much the best of what you could say for the GOP’s efforts. On the whole, it was a pretty bad day for Trump’s allies, who were fighting an uphill battle against the facts as laid out by the witnesses, including witnesses they called themselves.

In some cases, the GOP witnesses directly undercut Trump, as my colleague Andrew Prokop explains:

SPOILER

Om spoilers te kunnen lezen moet je zijn ingelogd. Je moet je daarvoor eerst gratis Registreren. Ook kun je spoilers niet lezen als je een ban hebt.

As the day went on, despite a lot of heated rhetoric from Republican members of the committee, especially from Nunes, there were few coherent substantive challenges to what the witnesses were saying.

Instead, the GOP tried to go after the witnesses themselves — including a notably ugly example when Steve Castor, the Republican attorney in charge of questioning, scrutinized Vindman’s patriotism.

He specifically focused on a job offer Vindman received from Oleksandr Danylyuk, the former head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. Apparently, Danylyuk offered Vindman an opportunity to become Ukraine’s defense minister three times during the trip — and, each time, Vindman declined.

“Upon returning, I notified chain of command and the appropriate counterintelligence folks about this, the offer,” Vindman said.

But Castor wasn’t satisfied. He continued to press Vindman on whether he ever considered the offer, resulting in an exchange in which he appeared to call Vindman’s patriotism into question:

SPOILER

Om spoilers te kunnen lezen moet je zijn ingelogd. Je moet je daarvoor eerst gratis Registreren. Ook kun je spoilers niet lezen als je een ban hebt.

Castor is arguing that Vindman’s loyalties were strained by repeated job offers from the Ukrainians, highlighting Vindman’s Ukrainian language skills, reminding everyone that he’s foreign-born. The insinuation, that Vindman’s background makes him an unreliable witness to Trump’s malfeasance, is reasonably clear.

Castor never outright brought up Vindman’s Ukrainian origin (or his Jewish background), but he didn’t really need to. The line of questioning served only to suggest that a Ukrainian-born immigrant cannot be trusted to be loyal to the United States even if he was wounded fighting for his country.

The ugly xenophobia of this exchange makes it especially notable. But the thin reasoning behind it — Vindman got a job offer from the Ukrainians that he turned down, so maybe we can’t believe his testimony? — was pretty par for the course.

If these are the best defenses Trump’s allies can muster, then they really won’t have much cover against charges of naked partisanship in a vote against impeachment.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:44 schreef ExtraWaskracht het volgende:
Goede explainer van VOX (left bias, mostly factual):
[..]

Eens met het artikel dat dit inderdaad betrekkelijk rampzalig voor hun zaak was. Ze zagen zich ook genoodzaakt te liegen over triviale zaken als van wiens lijstje 2 van deze getuigen kwamen. Echter zal moeten blijken of de Republikeinse hersenspoel-operatie niet sterk genoeg is; ik betwijfel dat. Je ziet nu users als Refragmental beweren dat het zelfs slecht voor de zaak van democraten was, gebaseerd op [???].

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:57 schreef klappernootopreis het volgende:

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Hoop?

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:44 schreef ExtraWaskracht het volgende:
Goede explainer van VOX (left bias, mostly factual):
[..]

Eens met het artikel dat dit inderdaad betrekkelijk rampzalig voor hun zaak was. Ze zagen zich ook genoodzaakt te liegen over triviale zaken als van wiens lijstje 2 van deze getuigen kwamen. Echter zal moeten blijken of de Republikeinse hersenspoel-operatie niet sterk genoeg is; ik betwijfel dat. Je ziet nu users als Refragmental beweren dat het zelfs slecht voor de zaak van democraten was, gebaseerd op [???].

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:58 schreef DustPuppy het volgende:

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Eerder wanhoop.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:58 schreef DustPuppy het volgende:

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Eerder wanhoop.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:04 schreef Barbusse het volgende:
Het patriotisme van een onderscheiden veteraan - purple heart zelfs - ter discussie stellen...

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 08:02 schreef KoosVogels het volgende:

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Besef je trouwens dat je (en hetzelfde geldt voor de andere Trump-apologeten) nog geen enkele poging hebt ondernomen om de kwestie inhoudelijk te adresseren?

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:11 schreef heywoodu het volgende:

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Nou ja, inhoudelijk stelling nemen op basis van het Republikeinse optreden tijdens deze verhoren kan eigenlijk ook niet: de Republikeinen stellen immers geen inhoudelijke vragen.

Je kunt het dergelijke mensen dan ook nauwelijks kwalijk nemen dat ze alleen maar schreeuwen over het proces, 'leugens!!' en wat nog meer.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:08 schreef klappernootopreis het volgende:

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dat gaat echt niet goed vallen bij sommige republikeinse kiezers.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:07 schreef klappernootopreis het volgende:

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Tja. Daar lijkt het inderdaad wel op. Je volgt als een minion Trump, en komt er dan achter dat je al die tijd achter een valse profeet aan hebt gehobbeld.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:18 schreef Barbusse het volgende:

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Dat denk ik ook niet. Om nog maar te zwijgen over de enorm grote groep veteranen in dat land, waarvan een groot gedeelte zich zwaar in de steek gelaten voelt door de overheid.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:17 schreef speknek het volgende:
Zoals het aanvallen van John McCain, John Allen, Humayun Khan, en vele andere onderscheidden mensen van het leger, niet lekker zou zitten met de Republikeinse achterban?
Of zijn vele buitenechtelijke escapades en aanrandings- en verkrachtingsverhalen niet lekker zouden zitten met de streng Christelijke Republikeinen?

De gemiddelde Republikein is een gewetenloze opportunist. Wat Trump doet maakt ze verder geen reet uit.

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Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has told three prominent Republicans in recent weeks that he plans to resign from the Trump Administration to run for the U.S. Senate from Kansas in next year’s elections. The problem: how to get out in one piece.

Pompeo’s plan had been to remain at the State Department until early spring next year, the three Republicans tell TIME, but recent developments, including the House impeachment inquiry, are hurting him politically and straining his relationship with Trump.

So Pompeo is rethinking his calendar, say the top Republicans, one who served in the Trump Administration, another who remains in government, and a third who served in several high-ranking posts and is active in GOP politics. The timing of Pompeo’s resignation now will be decided by his ability to navigate the smoothest possible exit from the administration, the three Republicans say.

There is no indication whether Pompeo has discussed his plans with President Trump. Rumors of a Pompeo Senate campaign have circulated for months, and while Pompeo has said repeatedly that he has no intention of running, he has not ruled out a race. Pompeo aides previously have denied he was planning to step down. They declined to comment on the record for this story.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:24 schreef Em31 het volgende:

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Klopt, er gaat pas wat gebeuren als hun eigen positie in gevaar komt. Dan pas boeit het ze.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:11 schreef heywoodu het volgende:

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Nou ja, inhoudelijk stelling nemen op basis van het Republikeinse optreden tijdens deze verhoren kan eigenlijk ook niet: de Republikeinen stellen immers geen inhoudelijke vragen.

Je kunt het dergelijke mensen dan ook nauwelijks kwalijk nemen dat ze alleen maar schreeuwen over het proces, 'leugens!!' en wat nog meer.

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Op woensdag 20 november 2019 09:04 schreef ExtraWaskracht het volgende:

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Misschien, maar ik snap niet zo goed waarom. Dan wordt Pence de nieuwe president,... Pence op de troon is net zo goed een recept om de Democraten over de zeik te krijgen.