Crisis Oekraïne - Rusland #191 hryvnia in duikvlucht

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 03:36 schreef ZOA het volgende:
Rusland gaat nooit zijn bakermat Kiev opgeven .. hoeveel politiek of bommen er ook uit de EU of cultuurloze criminele staat VS komen...en zeker niet aan een paar aapjes uit Lviv Lwow Lemberg wat de ware Oekrainers zijn

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 06:41 schreef Papierversnipperaar het volgende:

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Dat zeiden de Serven ook over Kosovo.

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 11:04 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

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Kiev is overwegend etnisch Oekraiens.

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Kosovo is overwegend etnisch Albanees.

Volgens het etnische criterium van de pro-Russen (de bevolking is in meerderheid etnisch ...) is Kiev Oekraiens en Kosovo Albanees. In dit geval werk hun etnische argumenten in hun nadeel. En dan trekken ze ineens andere conclusies (zoals Kiev is de bakermat van de Russische beschaving.)

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 11:06 schreef 99.999 het volgende:

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Ik zeg ook bepaald niet dat je je er iets van aan moet trekken. Het zou echter geen kwaad kunnen om je blik eens te verbreden.

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 11:20 schreef deelnemer het volgende:
Hoe te reageren op de posten van Crashbangboom & Smack10 zonder regressie naar je tijd als een 3 jarige peuter?

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 12:11 schreef waht het volgende:
Ach ja, er wonen etnische Russen inderdaad. Net als in Kazachstan en de Baltische staten, en Wit-Rusland. Mogen zij zich ook aansluiten bij Rusland?

Dit is een machtsspel mensen. Tussen talloze spelers. Je hebt als Nederlander het voordeel om geen kant te hoeven kiezen. Maar minstens kun je de moeite doen om de belangen van elke partij te begrijpen. En nee, de belangen van het Kremlin zijn niet heilig.

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 11:34 schreef crashbangboom het volgende:

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Was dat dan ten tijde van Kosovo waar je naar verwees, en waar ik inhoudelijk op inging? (ik durf niet te stellen dat je verwijst naar een user die alleen als een drie jarige vragen stelt, dat is voor jouw rekening).

Het principe is toch niet zo absurd? Je hebt landen. Dat zijn juridische gevallen. Je hebt bevolkingsgroepen, die lopen niet altijd gelijk met juridische grensjes. Vaak gaat dat goed, soms gaat dat verkeerd, als de tegenstellingen duurzaam te groot zijn. Lang kan dat onder de pet gehouden worden als er een sterke man met harde hand regeert, zoals Tito in voormalig Joegoslavie, of zoals al decennia semi dictators van diverse signatuur in Ukraine, maar als ultiem die ordende macht wegvalt, dan spelen die breuklijnen weer op, en moet je constateren dat bevolking > jurdische lijntjes. Kwestie van oerkracht.

Nu is de vraag waarom we in het ene geval heel vanzelfsprekend vinden dat dit opgebroken wordt langs de oerkrachten, en in het andere geval niet. Me dunkt dat het antwoord in veel gevallen luidt: (extern) opportunisme. Terwijl als je vanuit de menselijkheid redeneert je vroeg of laat zo'n land langs haar breuklijnen laat opbreken, zodat ze weer verder kunnen.

En dan vind ik een voorbeeld van nog geen twee decennia geleden sterker dan twee eeuwen geleden (tenzij de aarde is blijven stilstaan, natuurljk), sorry

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:03 schreef crashbangboom het volgende:
Van Gogh, he?

Wat probeer je gelardeerd met heel veel woorden eigenlijk te zeggen?

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:14 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

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Oh, je begrijpt het ineens allemaal weer niet.

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:21 schreef crashbangboom het volgende:

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Wie de omtrekkende bewegingen wel begrijpt mag het zeggen hoor.

Je kan toch voor ons minder hoogdravende stervelingen wel gewoon wel gewoon in jip en janneke taal samenvattten wat je probeert te bagateliseren?

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:22 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

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Wat begrijp je dan niet?

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:25 schreef crashbangboom het volgende:

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Wat je poogt te zeggen. Ik kan het geeens met je eens of oneens zijn.

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Kaliningrad kampt met een aantal problemen maar die gelden ook voor veel andere Russische steden. Zo is er een hoge graad van corruptie in het ambtenarenapparaat. Ook de Russische maffia heeft een stevige greep op onder andere drugshandel en prostitutie, en er is een grote groep zwervers, straatkinderen en verslaafden. Ook is de levensverwachting en algemene gezondheid een stuk lager dan in omringende landen, mede door de slechte milieusituatie, veroorzaakt door de zware industrie die de omgeving vervuilt. Afvalwater wordt bijvoorbeeld ongezuiverd in de Pregel en op de Oostzee geloosd. Met verschillende actieplannen probeert de regering van de oblast aan deze problemen wat te doen, vooralsnog met wisselend succes.

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"We thought that positive changes would arrive quickly, but in one year we haven't seen much," said Olga Proskurina, a resident of Yalta. "But most of us are prepared to hold out for longer," she said with a hint of optimism.

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The West, particularly NATO states, have launched an aggressive and sophisticated propaganda war accusing Russia for the Ukraine crisis in order to get public support, Patrick Heningson of 21 Century Wire.com, told RT’s In the Now.

READ MORE: Ukraine media falsely claim Dutch prosecutors accused Russia of MH17 downing

RT: Why don’t facts seem to go anywhere in this Ukraine crisis?

Patrick Heningson: Well the main thing to understand is that most of what’s constructed regarding Ukraine that is going back twelve months or more, is really constructed and it’s focused towards a US audience and European audience. It’s a really a sophisticated war propaganda, it’s a war for public opinion because whatever the case may be on the ground Western leaders, specifically NATO-countries, they really need public opinion to be backing whatever moves they are making around the world. In the case of Ukraine this is quite an aggressive move by NATO allies led by Washington DC. So it requires a lot of very sophisticated media and public opinion forming, and I think that’s what we are seeing. This is an ongoing battle to get into people’s minds to say that Russia is the aggressor, Russia is responsible for this, Russia shot down MH17 and that justifies a sort of escalation, if you will, along the rim of Europe surrounding Russia.

RT: Many people do believe that Russia is the aggressor. But what happens if the investigation from the Netherlands into MH17 doesn’t fall into the idea of what happens according to the State Department?

PH: I don’t think it will because at the end of the day you are talking about a criminal investigation, you are talking about forensic evidence and the forensic evidence doesn’t lie. You can have as much hyperbole speculation, wild conspiracy theories which is what I would like to refer to, what was being put out in the initial aftermath of MH17, there was a lot of wild conspiracy theories that Russia shot it down or rebels shot it down with a Buk missile system which is clearly not true, because the evidence doesn’t support that. So these are conspiracy theories and they are coming from government, they are coming from the US ambassador’s office in Kiev.

RT: But the investigation is not over yet, how can we know that the evidence doesn’t support that?

PH: I can say that just by the fact that the information that was released at the time from all the different authorities beyond the hyperbole, there is nothing there to say that specifically that was a Buk missile launcher; it is more likely to be something else. And many other people have categorized this in the same way. So this investigation is more about public relations, it’s more a part of the PR war. I don’t think it’s going to net very much in the end. And also we’ve got two flight recorders, boxes with important information; they’ve been sitting under wraps in Great Britain for quite a long time now. And certainly a lot of the information that we’d like to get answers from is probably sitting in those black box recorders. And are they classified? I don’t know there hasn’t been a complete disclosure with what is on these recorders and that’s a big thing.

RT: It seems to me that there are good people in the governments that want facts to come out about MH17 though.

PH: There are. There are good people in governments everywhere, the only problem is there is an agenda, and we can see that imbued in the words of Victoria Nuland [on Wednesday]. And basically she is undermining what’s been accomplished in the Minsk peace agreements a few weeks ago. So she is undermining the work of Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande, Vladimir Putin, even Petro Poroshenko because he was a party to this agreement as well. But we all know what Victoria Nuland thinks of the EU by now... But this is what we are dealing with, this is a public relations war of the highest order, this is a Cold War if you will, maybe it’s getting a little bit warm but these are the sort of games and chess maneuvers that we are going to be seeing down the road, it’s not going to finish any time soon.

RT: What about her statement that there are thousands of Russian soldiers in Ukraine?

PH: I think the language within the Minsk agreement specifically said that Russia is not a military party to the conflict in Eastern Ukraine. So what Victoria Nuland is saying is undermining what Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande have said at the table and agreed upon. She is trying to transform the language. This is again because Minsk was a huge failure for Washington not least of all because they weren’t there, but also because of what came out of the Minsk agreement which is a part of some sort of peaceful resolution. And it seems to me like Victoria Nuland represents a faction within the State Department that doesn’t want to see a peaceful resolution. They want to escalate the conflict, they want lethal aid…This is an ongoing thing, this is a faction within the State Department they really wants to escalate the military confrontation, they want to raise tensions in the region, and there are others who don’t. But unfortunately the dominant voices right now are ones that want to raise the game a little bit with Russia.

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:37 schreef deelnemer het volgende:

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In post #263 ga je uit van natuurlijke en juridische scheidslijnen. Daarbij veronderstel je dat de natuurlijke breuklijnen blijvend zijn, zodat een verstandig mens de juridische scheidslijnen daarmee laat samenvallen.

- Mijn punt is dat deze natuurlijke breuklijnen zelf veranderlijk zijn.
- Dat ze daarom geen vanzelfsprekend ijkpunt zijn.
- Dat het er vaak erop lijkt dat deze breuklijnen moedwillig gecreeerd worden, langs ieder mogelijk verschil dat mensen kunnen onderscheiden, ten behoeve van, en ondergeschikt aan groepsvorming (om wij-en-zij te kunnen spelen).

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:49 schreef reza1 het volgende:
West’s ‘propaganda war for public opinion’

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:50 schreef waht het volgende:

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Samenvatting?

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The West, particularly NATO states, have launched an aggressive and sophisticated propaganda war accusing Russia for the Ukraine crisis in order to get public support

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:50 schreef waht het volgende:

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Samenvatting?

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The latest EU meeting has shown that many of its members are in no rush to extend the sanctions which were imposed on Russia last year following a US example, or to exert any more pressure on Moscow, as long as the Minsk ceasefire agreement is holding.

Most foreign ministers at the EU two-day meeting in the Latvian capital expressed hopes that the latest Minsk agreement would be a success, and there would be no need to impose further sanctions on Russia. The meeting had a format of an informal discussion, where the ministers touched the topics of the Minsk agreements and the OSCE mission in Ukraine, as well as the possible stepping up of pressure on Russia to “promote peace.”

READ MORE: Ceasefire violations on decline in E. Ukraine – OSCE

Scheduled ten days before an official summit in Brussels, the meeting has shown that the EU can’t yet agree even on the automatic extension of existing sanctions – a move that some of the hawkish states have been actively promoting.

“In my opinion, we must not make any other steps, we have to give peace a chance. The extension could take place, but only if there is no improvement of the situation,” Spanish FM Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said, expressing his views after the meeting , according to Russian news agency RIA Novosti. The Spanish FM is heading to Moscow, during which he will not only discuss the Ukrainian crisis, but will also meet with the Russian Energy minister.

Meanwhile, Italian FM Paolo Gentiloni told reporters the he sees “encouraging signals” on the ground in eastern Ukraine, and so “at the moment we don’t need either new sanctions or automatic renewals.”

Austrian Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz shared the views of his Italian counterpart, saying that there is a “glimpse of hope” following the Minsk agreements: “We should do everything now to improve the situation and decide later whether that improvement really happened and we can reduce the sanctions, or, if we have to, extend them,” Kurz said.

READ MORE: No sanctions would ever force Russia into changing its policy - Kremlin

Greece has also spoke out against any new sanctions as long as Russia supports the Minsk agreements, with Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias saying the Greek experience suggests that “not every sanction is constructive” and can succeed. “We support sanctions that bring the other side to the negotiation table,” Kotzias told German ARD. “But we are against sanctions that are imposed simply because someone is angry.”

The German position was short-spoken and clear: “This depends on the implementation of the Minsk accord,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said, as cited by France 24.

Last year, the European Union followed the line of the United States, imposing sanctions on Russia in several separate rounds, but it later found them to cause increasing difficulties for its own constituent economies, which rely heavily on Russian energy supplies.

The EU hesitated to impose sectorial sanctions against Russia’s financial, defense and energy sectors until the downing of Malaysian jetliner in Ukrainian airspace midsummer last year.

The key decision on whether to prolong sanctions – which requires unanimity – will likely be postponed until closer to mid-summer; a period when they also came into force last year.

Britain, Poland, Sweden and the Baltic states don’t share the other European countries’ optimism.

For instance, Lithuanian Foreign Minister Linas Linkevicius insisted that “the least” EU must do is extend sanctions until the end of the year. Such views were shared by his Belgian counterpart Didier Reynders, who called for maintaining “unity within the EU” and “continuing pressure so that things change on the ground.”

Polish Foreign Minister Grzegorz Schetyna threatened that if Moscow “does not change its policy, sanctions will be toughened and they will make themselves felt even more in Russia.”

“All the European countries are speaking with one voice, together with Australia, the United States and Canada. The free world says 'no' to this kind of policy,” he claimed in the interview with Polish broadcast Polsat News. “The Polish viewpoint is shared by other countries.”

But besides the facade of hawkish rhetoric, Poland has been asking Russia’s veterinary and phytosanitary watchdog for cooperation.

“On one hand, our Polish colleagues, along with the Lithuanians, have been criticizing us and saying they don’t need any bilateral agreements, but on the other – they contacted us suggesting a working group on veterinary and phytosanitary control,” said Rosselkhoznadzor’s chief Sergey Dankvert, cited by TASS.

Earlier in March Greece sent a similar letter, asking for a seminar on safety requirements for different types of food products, so that Greek products could “immediately reach the Russian market,” once the sanctions are lifted.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius reflected on the ongoing debate in the 28-nation EU, admitting that some of its nations demand that the bloc announces the extension as soon as possible. “Others say it would be a bit contradictory to say: On the one hand, Minsk is being applied and on the other hand we are going to go [extend sanctions] until the end of year,” he explained. “If Minsk develops positively, then it is likely that nothing new will be done on sanctions.”

Meanwhile EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said in order for the sanction to be lifted “something really good” should happen on the ground, the union is on the other hand is “always ready to increase the pressure if needed,” France 24 reported.

The Minsk agreement, signed on February 12, has held in the vast majority of the war-torn country with the number of ceasefire violations that have plagued the pact dropping, according to OSCE.

Since Kiev sent its military to suppress the regions in April 2014 after people there refused to recognize the new coup-imposed authorities in the capital, at least 6,000 people have been killed in southeastern Ukraine according to UN Human Rights Office estimates.

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Op zondag 8 maart 2015 15:52 schreef crashbangboom het volgende:

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Ik denk dat de eerste zin wel een hint weggeeft

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