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pi_123459832
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 15:59 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:
Wat Daniel is voor de Joden dat is openbaringen voor de christenen.
Dat klinkt interessant. Kun je dat nader toelichten?
pi_123460068
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 15:59 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:
Wat Daniel is voor de Joden dat is openbaringen voor de christenen.
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 15:53 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Ik snap je punt wel in dit opzicht. Echter er is nog een optie. Stel dat er idd een oordeel plaatsvond in de eerste eeuw waarin Satan veroordeeld werd en schuldig werd bevonden (maar nog geen straf had ontvangen). Tot dan toe was Satan in staat redelijk ongelimiteerd de aarde te controleren. Tegen Jezus zei hij immers dat hij autoriteit over de aarde had gekregen en dat hij het kon weggeven aan Jezus als Jezus hem zou aanbidden. Nou vanuit dit oogpunt bezien is het einde van het Romeinse Rijk dan geen fysiek einde maar een geestelijk einde. De duivel kon niet meer ongelimiteerd de aarde besturen, christendom kon niet uitgeroeid worden maar christenen kregen de sleutels van het hemelse koninkrijk. Dit koninkrijk werd al op aarde gevestigd. Jezus zei : het koninkrijk van God zit binnenin je. Merk ook op dat de eerste drie voorgaande rijken nog een tijdje te leven kregen maar het Romeinse Rijk niet. Daar kwam ineens een abrupt einde aan. Dit kan alleen verklaard worden als je er idd vanuit gaat dat na Vespinianus Jezus een koninkrijk op aarde oprichtte. Dit is echter een koninkrijk zonder grenzen en een spiritueel koninkrijk. Hoewel de duivel veroordeeld is heeft hij nog geen straf ontvangen, dit verklaard waarom hij nog steeds invloed uitoefent op de wereld maar Jezus' interventie verklaart waarom deze invloed beperkt is.

Desalniettemin zijn we het beiden wel eens dat de RKK een anti-christelijk instituut is geworden (al hebben ze wel progressie gemaakt tav het evangelie). Maar je kan niet overal obsessief bij elke profetie stellen dat het om de RKK gaat. ;)
Dalijk ga je me ook nog zeggen dat die sleutels aan Petrus werden gegeven en dat Petrus dus de eerste paus was en het dus steeds de paus, de opvolger van Petrus is die bepaalt of iemand de hemel ingaat of de hel.

Er kwam geen abrupt einde aan Rome. Dat ging geleidelijk aan over meerdere honderden jaren. Ook is het nooit echt ten einde gekomen: Rome is voortbestaan maar in een nieuwe vorm, de rooms katholieke. De bijbel beschrijft de kleine hoorn als een andere macht dan de voorgaande, een religio-politieke.

Sorry maar ik ben serieus verbaasd over hoe makkelijk je je op een dwaalspoor laat zetten. Wil je hier echt een serieuze discussie over voeren of weet je zelf ook wel dat het een lading onzin is? Indien je er echt over wilt spreken zal ik er niet mee spotten.

Je moet de tekst van Daniel wel heel erg verstoren wil je erin lezen dat dat ophield bij Nero.

Zo wordt de wederopstanding bijv. genoemd bij het laatste oordeel (Daniel 12:2). Hoe wil je dat plaatsen in de tijd tot Nero?

Hoe wil je het kleine boek in openbaringen het boek van Daniel laten zijn als het alleen maar voor de joden was en niets zegt over onze tijd? (Daniel 12:9)

Waarom pakt openbaringen de symboliek van Daniel voor het beschrijven van de antichrist en laat diezelfde tot het einde blijven?

Nogmaals, de 3,5 jaar/42 maanden/1260 dagen komen terug in openbaringen. Deze kun je niet in de tijd van de joden plaatsen. Ze komen overeen met de woestijnperiode en dat is de periode van de katholieke kerk, aan het einde waarvan Johannes de hoer ziet. Dat is bij de val van de Roomse kerk.

Vragen, vragen, vragen....

Ik zie dat je nu overal aan het twijfelen bent gegaan en dat is natuurlijk goed.
Echter ben ik een beetje geschokt van je vatbaarheid voor deze theorien die voor mij persoonlijk onmiddellijk van tafel kunnen worden geveegd. Om ze kloppend te houden moet je wat mij betreft de teksten ernstig verstoren en interpreteren op een manier die andere teksten geheel tegen lijkt te spreken.
Maar wellicht komen we er samen wel uit.

[ Bericht 7% gewijzigd door Ali_Kannibali op 28-02-2013 16:17:48 ]
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:17:07 #53
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123460592
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:01 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

[..]

Dat klinkt interessant. Kun je dat nader toelichten?
Uiteraard ;)

In Daniel wordt voorzegd wat er met zijn volk zou gebeuren. Het gaat hier om het Joodse volk. Het beschrijft bijvoorbeeld in Daniel 8 de opkomst van een Griekse koning : Antiochius Epifanes. Deze koning voerde oorlog tegen het Joodse volk en stelde een verbod in op het houden van diensten in het Joodse heiligdom. Bovendien offerde hij een zwijn aan Zeus in het Joodse heiligdom. Uiteindelijk vocht het Joodse volk terug en herstelden ze de diensten in dit heiligdom. Dit staat bij Joden bekend als hanukkah.

Ik denk dat in Daniel 7 het einde van het Joodse volk als Gods uitverkoren volk wordt voorzegd. Dit eindigde namelijk met de vernietiging van Jeruzalem in 70 na Christus waarin meer dan een miljoen mensen gedood werden. De Romeinse keizer Vespinianus wou een einde maken aan het Jodendom en wellicht ook het christendom.

Sinds 70 NC is het Joodse tijdperk dus voorgoed voorbij. Het oude verbond was afgeschaft en sindsdien was er sprake van een christelijk tijdperk. Daniel was dus een profetisch boek voor de Joden. In openbaringen worden ook profetieen gegeven en die gaan over de toekomst van het christelijke volk. Protestanten zien hierin veelal de opkomst van de RKK als antichristelijke kerk die Gods volk zou gaan verdrukken etc. De profetieeen uit Daniel zijn dus alleen in zoverre van toepassing op het christelijke tijdperk dat ze dienen als types. De kleine hoorns van Daniel 7 en 8 zijn dus een vertegenwoordiging van wat er gebeurt in het Christelijke tijdperk, maar Daniel zelf gaat puur over het Joodse volk.
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:23:33 #54
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123460916
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:06 schreef Ali_Kannibali het volgende:

[..]

[..]

Dalijk ga je me ook nog zeggen dat die sleutels aan Petrus werden gegeven en dat Petrus dus de eerste paus was en het dus steeds de paus, de opvolger van Petrus is die bepaalt of iemand de hemel ingaat of de hel.

Er kwam geen abrupt einde aan Rome. Dat ging geleidelijk aan over meerdere honderden jaren. Ook is het nooit echt ten einde gekomen: Rome is voortbestaan maar in een nieuwe vorm, de rooms katholieke. De bijbel beschrijft de kleine hoorn als een andere macht dan de voorgaande, een religio-politieke.

Sorry maar ik ben serieus verbaasd over hoe makkelijk je je op een dwaalspoor laat zetten. Wil je hier echt een serieuze discussie over voeren of weet je zelf ook wel dat het een lading onzin is? Indien je er echt over wilt spreken zal ik er niet mee spotten.

Je moet de tekst van Daniel wel heel erg verstoren wil je erin lezen dat dat ophield bij Nero.

Zo wordt de wederopstanding bijv. genoemd bij het laatste oordeel (Daniel 12:2). Hoe wil je dat plaatsen in de tijd tot Nero?

Hoe wil je het kleine boek in openbaringen het boek van Daniel laten zijn als het alleen maar voor de joden was en niets zegt over onze tijd? (Daniel 12:9)

Waarom pakt openbaringen de symboliek van Daniel voor het beschrijven van de antichrist en laat diezelfde tot het einde blijven?

Nogmaals, de 3,5 jaar/42 maanden/1260 dagen komen terug in openbaringen. Deze kun je niet in de tijd van de joden plaatsen. Ze komen overeen met de woestijnperiode en dat is de periode van de katholieke kerk, aan het einde waarvan Johannes de hoer ziet. Dat is bij de val van de Roomse kerk.

Vragen, vragen, vragen....

Ik zie dat je nu overal aan het twijfelen bent gegaan en dat is natuurlijk goed.
Echter ben ik een beetje geschokt van je vatbaarheid voor deze theorien die voor mij persoonlijk onmiddellijk van tafel kunnen worden geveegd. Om ze kloppend te houden moet je wat mij betreft de teksten ernstig verstoren en interpreteren op een manier die andere teksten geheel tegen lijkt te spreken.
Maar wellicht komen we er samen wel uit.
Petrus was geen paus, daar zijn we het beiden wel over eens.

Jij zegt dat de hoorn uit Daniel 7 een religieus-politieke macht moest zijn omdat hij "anders" was. Hier heb je 0 bijbelse onderbouwing voor en dit berust dus op onbijbelse aannames.

Er kwam wel een abrupt einde aan Rome in spirituele zin, het christendom verving de heidense afgoden.

Als je de vorige posts gelezen had dan wist je dat ik zelf overtuigd ben van het feit dat Vespinianus de kleine hoorn was. De 3.5 jaar komen overeen met de Joodse opstand die eindigden met de vernietiging van Jeruzalem in 70 nc.

Probeer ook eens out-of-the-sda-box te denken. ;)
pi_123461147
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:23 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Petrus was geen paus, daar zijn we het beiden wel over eens.

Jij zegt dat de hoorn uit Daniel 7 een religieus-politieke macht moest zijn omdat hij "anders" was. Hier heb je 0 bijbelse onderbouwing voor en dit berust dus op onbijbelse aannames.
Het is religio-politiek om de volgende reden:

24 Belangende nu de tien hoornen: uit dat koninkrijk zullen tien koningen opstaan, en een ander zal na hen opstaan; en dat zal verscheiden zijn van de vorigen, en het zal drie koningen vernederen.
25 En het zal woorden spreken tegen den Allerhoogsten, en het zal de heiligen der hoge plaatsen verstoren, en het zal menen de tijden en de wet te veranderen, en zij zullen in deszelfs hand overgegeven worden tot een tijd, en tijden, en een gedeelte eens tijds. Daniel 7

Dit is eeng godslasterlijke macht die de tijden en de wet meent te veranderen. Welke wet? Gods wet. Wie anders dan God kan Gods wet veranderen? De positie van deze macht is dus als god op aarde, niet slechts koning.

quote:
Er kwam wel een abrupt einde aan Rome in spirituele zin, het christendom verving de heidense afgoden.
Ah op die manier wel ja. Maar waarom zou dit gelijk zijn aan:

26 Daarna zal het gericht zitten, en men zal zijn heerschappij wegnemen, hem verdelgende en verdoende, tot het einde toe.
27 Maar het rijk, en de heerschappij, en de grootheid der koninkrijken onder den gansen hemel, zal gegeven worden den volke der heiligen der hoge plaatsen, welks Rijk een eeuwig Rijk zijn zal; en alle heerschappijen zullen Hem eren en gehoorzamen.

Volgens de theorie zou dus sinds de introductie van het christelijke geloof de hele wereld onderworpen zijn aan Jezus Christus en de heiligen zouden over de hele wereld heersen.

Ik zie dit niet in de geschiedenis van de laatste 2000 jaar. Ik zie in tegendeel een oorlog die gaande is tegen de heiligen en tegen de waarheid. Alles lijkt zelfs in het nadeel van de heiligen te zijn vandaag de dag naarmate we de NWO naderen. Alsof de strijd al hopeloos verloren is.

[ Bericht 32% gewijzigd door Ali_Kannibali op 28-02-2013 16:40:20 ]
pi_123461245
Dankjewel TS, het is me duidelijk.

Alleen wat wordt er bedoeld met 'antichristelijke kerk' ?
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:32:22 #57
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123461372
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:28 schreef Ali_Kannibali het volgende:

[..]

Het is religio-politiek om de volgende reden:

24 Belangende nu de tien hoornen: uit dat koninkrijk zullen tien koningen opstaan, en een ander zal na hen opstaan; en dat zal verscheiden zijn van de vorigen, en het zal drie koningen vernederen.
25 En het zal woorden spreken tegen den Allerhoogsten, en het zal de heiligen der hoge plaatsen verstoren, en het zal menen de tijden en de wet te veranderen, en zij zullen in deszelfs hand overgegeven worden tot een tijd, en tijden, en een gedeelte eens tijds. Daniel 7

Dit is eeng godslasterlijke macht die de tijden en de wet meent te veranderen. Welke wet? Gods wet. Wie anders dan God kan Gods wet veranderen? De positie van deze macht is dus als god op aarde, niet slechts koning.

Er kwam wel een abrupt einde aan Rome in spirituele zin, het christendom verving de heidense afgoden.

Als je de vorige posts gelezen had dan wist je dat ik zelf overtuigd ben van het feit dat Vespinianus de kleine hoorn was. De 3.5 jaar komen overeen met de Joodse opstand die eindigden met de vernietiging van Jeruzalem in 70 nc.

Probeer ook eens out-of-the-sda-box te denken. ;)
[/quote]

De Romeinen wilden het hele Jodendom afschaffen, inclusief de Joodse wet en de Joodse feesten etc. De leiders die een dergelijke onderneming ondernemen zijn in die zin godslasterlijk omdat zij een oordeel vellen over een volk dat alleen God zou mogen vellen.

Welke interpretatie we ook kiezen, de ZDA interpretatie kent veel meer haken en ogen dan de mainline interpretatie dat het gaat om Romeinse keizers.
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:37:49 #58
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123461649
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:30 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:
Dankjewel TS, het is me duidelijk.

Alleen wat wordt er bedoeld met 'antichristelijke kerk' ?
Een antichristelijke kerk is een kerk die anti-christelijk is in de zin dat ze bijbelgelovigen willen vervolgen. Maar het is ook anti-christelijk in de zin dat het zich voordoet als God op aarde. In de bijbel staat dat er sprake is van twee lagen; je hebt God als soevereine heerser en daaronder heb je alle schepsels die aan Hem onderhevig zijn. Toen Jezus naar de hemel ging liet hij een vertegenwoordiger achter; de Heilige Geest. Die is voor iedereen beschikbaar en leidt ons naar de waarheid omtrent Gods woord en werkt in ons. Bovendien leert de bijbel dat vergiffenis van al je zonden plaats vindt vanaf het moment dat je in Jezus gelooft.

De RKK leert echter dat de paus Gods vertegenwoordiger op aarde is. Bovendien leert de RKK dat het macht heeft gekregen om zondes te vergeven. In de middeleeuwen kon je bijvoorbeeld als je iets ergs gedaan had aflaten kopen. In feite kon je je zonde dus via de kerk afkopen. Tegenwoordig doen ze dit volgens mij niet echt meer, maar ze leren nog wel dat priesters macht hebben om zonden te vergeven. Terwijl de bijbel duidelijk is dat allen God zonden kan vergeven. Christenen hebben 1 hogepriester in de hemel: Jezus. Kortom de RKK misbruikt het christendom in feite om macht naar zichzelf toe te trekken door zich voor te doen als enige bemiddelaar tussen de mens en God.
pi_123461753
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:32 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]


De Romeinen wilden het hele Jodendom afschaffen, inclusief de Joodse wet en de Joodse feesten etc. De leiders die een dergelijke onderneming ondernemen zijn in die zin godslasterlijk omdat zij een oordeel vellen over een volk dat alleen God zou mogen vellen.

Welke interpretatie we ook kiezen, de ZDA interpretatie kent veel meer haken en ogen dan de mainline interpretatie dat het gaat om Romeinse keizers.
De 'mainline' interpretatie komt uit de pen van de Jezuieten zoals hierboven al gemeld is.

De ZDA interpretatie is de interpretatie van Luther, Calvijn en alle anderen.
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quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:37 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Een antichristelijke kerk is een kerk die anti-christelijk is in de zin dat ze bijbelgelovigen willen vervolgen. Maar het is ook anti-christelijk in de zin dat het zich voordoet als God op aarde. In de bijbel staat dat er sprake is van twee lagen; je hebt God als soevereine heerser en daaronder heb je alle schepsels die aan Hem onderhevig zijn. Toen Jezus naar de hemel ging liet hij een vertegenwoordiger achter; de Heilige Geest. Die is voor iedereen beschikbaar en leidt ons naar de waarheid omtrent Gods woord en werkt in ons. Bovendien leert de bijbel dat vergiffenis van al je zonden plaats vindt vanaf het moment dat je in Jezus gelooft.

De RKK leert echter dat de paus Gods vertegenwoordiger op aarde is. Bovendien leert de RKK dat het macht heeft gekregen om zondes te vergeven. In de middeleeuwen kon je bijvoorbeeld als je iets ergs gedaan had aflaten kopen. In feite kon je je zonde dus via de kerk afkopen. Tegenwoordig doen ze dit volgens mij niet echt meer, maar ze leren nog wel dat priesters macht hebben om zonden te vergeven. Terwijl de bijbel duidelijk is dat allen God zonden kan vergeven. Christenen hebben 1 hogepriester in de hemel: Jezus. Kortom de RKK misbruikt het christendom in feite om macht naar zichzelf toe te trekken door zich voor te doen als enige bemiddelaar tussen de mens en God.
Daar moet ik even over nadenken, want als ik je uitleg goed begrijp is de RK kerk dus eigenlijk antichristelijk?
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Wiseguy:

quote:
Als je de vorige posts gelezen had dan wist je dat ik zelf overtuigd ben van het feit dat Vespinianus de kleine hoorn was. De 3.5 jaar komen overeen met de Joodse opstand die eindigden met de vernietiging van Jeruzalem in 70 nc.

Probeer ook eens out-of-the-sda-box te denken. ;)
Het is geen kwestie van -out of the box- denken maar van niet selectief zijn bij het gebruiken van de verzen in je interpretatie, maar alle verzen gebruiken.

Hoe verenig ik je interpretatie met het volgende:

5 En hetzelve werd een mond gegeven, om grote dingen en gods lasteringen te spreken; en hetzelve werd macht gegeven, om zulks te doen, twee en veertig maanden.

(Paralleltekst van Daniel 7:25 En het zal woorden spreken tegen den Allerhoogsten, en het zal de heiligen der hoge plaatsen verstoren, en het zal menen de tijden en de wet te veranderen, en zij zullen in deszelfs hand overgegeven worden tot een tijd, en tijden, en een gedeelte eens tijds.)

6 En het opende zijn mond tot lastering tegen God, om Zijn Naam te lasteren, en Zijn tabernakel, en die in den hemel wonen.
7 En hetzelve werd macht gegeven, om den heiligen krijg aan te doen, en om die te overwinnen; en hetzelve werd macht gegeven over alle geslacht, en taal, en volk.
8 En allen, die op de aarde wonen, zullen hetzelve aanbidden, welker namen niet zijn geschreven in het boek des levens, des Lams, Dat geslacht is, van de grondlegging der wereld.
9 Indien iemand oren heeft, die hore.
10 Indien iemand in de gevangenis leidt, die gaat zelf in de gevangenis; indien iemand met het zwaard zal doden, die moet zelf met het zwaard gedood worden. Hier is de lijdzaamheid en het geloof der heiligen.
11 En ik zag een ander beest uit de aarde opkomen, en het had twee hoornen, des Lams hoornen gelijk, en het sprak als de draak.
12 En het oefent al de macht van het eerste beest, in tegenwoordigheid van hetzelve, en het maakt, dat de aarde, en die daarin wonen het eerste beest aanbidden, wiens dodelijke wonde genezen was.
13 En het doet grote tekenen, zodat het ook vuur uit den hemel doet afkomen op de aarde, voor de mensen.
14 En verleidt degenen, die op de aarde wonen, door de tekenen, die aan hetzelve toe doen gegeven zijn in de tegenwoordigheid van het beest; zeggende tot degenen, die op de aarde wonen, dat zij het beest, dat de wond des zwaards had, en weder leefde, een beeld zouden maken.
15 En hetzelve werd macht gegeven om het beeld van het beest een geest te geven, opdat het beeld van het beest ook zou spreken, en maken, dat allen, die het beeld van het beest niet zouden aanbidden, gedood zouden worden.
16 En het maakt, dat het aan allen, kleinen en groten, en rijken en armen, en vrijen en dienstknechten, een merkteken geve aan hun rechterhand of aan hun voorhoofden;
17 En dat niemand mag kopen of verkopen, dan die dat merkteken heeft, of den naam van het beest, of het getal zijns naams.
18 Hier is de wijsheid: die het verstand heeft, rekene het getal van het beest; want het is een getal eens mensen, en zijn getal is zeshonderd zes en zestig. Openbaringen 13

Dit is allemaal gebeurd in de 3,5 jaar van Vespinianus en heeft dus geen betekenis voor de christen?
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:42:51 #62
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123461901
quote:
Ah op die manier wel ja. Maar waarom zou dit gelijk zijn aan:

26 Daarna zal het gericht zitten, en men zal zijn heerschappij wegnemen, hem verdelgende en verdoende, tot het einde toe.
27 Maar het rijk, en de heerschappij, en de grootheid der koninkrijken onder den gansen hemel, zal gegeven worden den volke der heiligen der hoge plaatsen, welks Rijk een eeuwig Rijk zijn zal; en alle heerschappijen zullen Hem eren en gehoorzamen.

Volgens de theorie zou dus sinds de introductie van het christelijke geloof de hele wereld onderworpen zijn aan Jezus Christus en de heiligen zouden over de hele wereld heersen.

Ik zie dit niet in de geschiedenis van de laatste 2000 jaar. Ik zie in tegendeel een oorlog die gaande is tegen de heiligen en tegen de waarheid. Alles lijkt zelfs in het nadeel van de heiligen te zijn vandaag de dag naarmate we de NWO naderen. Alsof de strijd al hopeloos verloren is.
Het idee hierachter is dat Jezus zijn koninkrijk op aarde plantte en dat die uiteindelijk de hele wereld zal vervullen. Dit koninkrijk gaat naar de hemel en gaat dus nooit verloren.

quote:
5 En hetzelve werd een mond gegeven, om grote dingen en gods lasteringen te spreken; en hetzelve werd macht gegeven, om zulks te doen, twee en veertig maanden.

(Paralleltekst van Daniel 7:25 En het zal woorden spreken tegen den Allerhoogsten, en het zal de heiligen der hoge plaatsen verstoren, en het zal menen de tijden en de wet te veranderen, en zij zullen in deszelfs hand overgegeven worden tot een tijd, en tijden, en een gedeelte eens tijds.)
Je verbindt hier een tekst van Daniel aan een tekst uit openbaringen. Ik denk dat we eerst vanuit de boeken zelf een verklaringen dienen te zoeken. De ZDA kerk nemen overal teksten vandaan zonder enige fundering, ja zo kan ik wel leren dat de bijbel leert dat je neus een bloedworst is natuurlijk. ;)
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:44:47 #63
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123462011
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:40 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

[..]

Daar moet ik even over nadenken, want als ik je uitleg goed begrijp is de RK kerk dus eigenlijk antichristelijk?
Het klinkt heel cru, het systeem als zodanig is antichristelijk. Dat neemt niet weg dat er ook heel veel christenen zich bevinden in de RKK. De RKK heeft wel ten aanzien van het evangelie progressie gemaakt. Maar de kerk als zodanig leert nog steeds niet het bijbelse evangelie. Meerdere pausen hebben verklaard dat ze God op aarde zijn en dat ze onfeilbaar zijn etc. etc.
pi_123462055
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:42 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Het idee hierachter is dat Jezus zijn koninkrijk op aarde plantte en dat die uiteindelijk de hele wereld zal vervullen. Dit koninkrijk gaat naar de hemel en gaat dus nooit verloren.

[..]

Je verbindt hier een tekst van Daniel aan een tekst uit openbaringen. Ik denk dat we eerst vanuit de boeken zelf een verklaringen dienen te zoeken. De ZDA kerk nemen overal teksten vandaan zonder enige fundering, ja zo kan ik wel leren dat de bijbel leert dat je neus een bloedworst is natuurlijk. ;)
Was het boek van Daniel niet verzegeld tot het einde?

Zou God niet door middel van verdere openbaring begrip kunnen geven aan het boek van Daniel?

Het is puur toeval dat de symboliek uit Daniel exact zo gebruikt wordt in Openbaringen? En niet alleen de symboliek, maar dat de teksten praktisch geciteerd worden?
pi_123462078
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:44 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Het klinkt heel cru, het systeem als zodanig is antichristelijk. Dat neemt niet weg dat er ook heel veel christenen zich bevinden in de RKK. De RKK heeft wel ten aanzien van het evangelie progressie gemaakt. Maar de kerk als zodanig leert nog steeds niet het bijbelse evangelie. Meerdere pausen hebben verklaard dat ze God op aarde zijn en dat ze onfeilbaar zijn etc. etc.
Dat is nogal wat om over jezelf als mens te zeggen dat je God op aarde bent. Komt eerder narcistisch dan heilig over.
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:46:38 #66
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123462095
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:39 schreef Ali_Kannibali het volgende:

[..]

De 'mainline' interpretatie komt uit de pen van de Jezuieten zoals hierboven al gemeld is.

De ZDA interpretatie is de interpretatie van Luther, Calvijn en alle anderen.
Toon mij eens aan dat Luther, Calvijn en anderen leerden dat de kleine hoorn van Daniel 7 de RKK is? ;)
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:49:47 #67
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123462256
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:46 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

[..]

Dat is nogal wat om over jezelf als mens te zeggen dat je God op aarde bent. Komt eerder narcistisch dan heilig over.
Inderdaad, maar dit was de geest van de RKK in de middeleeuwen. Er hebben zich toen gruwelijke taferelen afgespeeld omdat bijbelse christenen de autoriteit van de paus niet wilden erkennen.
pi_123462339
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:49 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Inderdaad, maar dit was de geest van de RKK in de middeleeuwen. Er hebben zich toen gruwelijke taferelen afgespeeld omdat bijbelse christenen de autoriteit van de paus niet wilden erkennen.
De middeleeuwen met de heksenjacht. Ook zoiets afschuwelijks.
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:51:48 #69
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123462355
[youtube][/youtube]
Dergelijke misdaden heeft de RKK in het verleden begaan, en zelfs erger dan deze want ze hadden speciale marteltuigen voor ketters die ze zelfs niet tijdens WO 2 gebruikten.
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:52:49 #70
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123462399
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:51 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

[..]

De middeleeuwen met de heksenjacht. Ook zoiets afschuwelijks.
Idd verschrikkelijk! :N
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 16:56:22 #71
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123462551
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:45 schreef Ali_Kannibali het volgende:

[..]

Was het boek van Daniel niet verzegeld tot het einde?

Zou God niet door middel van verdere openbaring begrip kunnen geven aan het boek van Daniel?

Het is puur toeval dat de symboliek uit Daniel exact zo gebruikt wordt in Openbaringen? En niet alleen de symboliek, maar dat de teksten praktisch geciteerd worden?

Wat wordt er bedoeld met "het einde"? Het kan gaan om het einde van het Joodse volk als uitverkoren volk. Jezus wees immers zijn volgelingen erop dat ze moesten vluchten uit Jeruzalem als ze zagen dat Jeruzalem omsingeld werd zoals voorzegd in het boek van Daniel.

Echter ik kan nu simpelweg nog niet concluderen of heel Daniel alleen voor het Joodse volk was. Laten we eerst stapje voor stapje uitzoeken wat de kleine hoorn van Daniel 7 is. Ik zei Vespinianus, echter deze keizer regeerde pas vanaf 69 nc en de onderdrukking begon al vanaf 66 nc. Welke interpretatie we ook kiezen er lijken aldoor haken en ogen aan te zitten. Echter vind ik de ZDA interpretatie wel heel erg veel haken en ogen hebben.
pi_123462790
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:46 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Toon mij eens aan dat Luther, Calvijn en anderen leerden dat de kleine hoorn van Daniel 7 de RKK is? ;)
Hier in een citaat van Luther.

In 1521 Luther dealt largely with prophecy, in which he broadened the foundations of the Reformation placing them on prophetic faith. His main interest was centered on the prophecy of the Little Horn in Daniel 8:9-12, 23-25. The antichrist of 2 Thessalonians 2 was identified as the power of the Papacy. So too was the Little Horn of Daniel 7, coming up among the divisions of Rome, explicitly applied.[74] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

En dit over de rest van de hervormers:
Many Protestant reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Thomas, John Knox, and Cotton Mather, identified the Roman Papacy as the Antichrist.[38] The Centuriators of Magdeburg, a group of Lutheran scholars in Magdeburg headed by Matthias Flacius, wrote the 12-volume "Magdeburg Centuries" to discredit the papacy and identify the pope as the Antichrist. The fifth round of talks in the Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue notes,
In calling the pope the "antichrist," the early Lutherans stood in a tradition that reached back into the eleventh century. Not only dissidents and heretics but even saints had called the bishop of Rome the "antichrist" when they wished to castigate his abuse of power.[39]

Calvijn:

To some we seem slanderous and petulant, when we call the Roman Pontiff Antichrist. But those who think so perceive not that they are bringing a charge of intemperance against Paul, after whom we speak, nay, in whose very words we speak. But lest any one object that Paul’s words have a different meaning, and are wrested by us against the Roman Pontiff, I will briefly show that they can only be understood of the Papacy. Paul says that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God (2 Thess. 2:4). In another passage, the Spirit, portraying him in the person of Antiochus, says that his reign would be with great swelling words of vanity (Dan. 7:25). Hence we infer that his tyranny is more over souls than bodies, a tyranny set up in opposition to the spiritual kingdom of Christ. Then his nature is such, that he abolishes not the name either of Christ or the Church, but rather uses the name of Christ as a pretext, and lurks under the name of Church as under a mask. But though all the heresies and schisms which have existed from the beginning belong to the kingdom of Antichrist, yet when Paul foretells that defection will come, he by the description intimates that that seat of abomination will be erected, when a kind of universal defection comes upon the Church, though many members of the Church scattered up and down should continue in the true unity of the faith. But when he adds, that in his own time, the mystery of iniquity, which was afterwards to be openly manifested, had begun to work in secret, we thereby understand that this calamity was neither to be introduced by one man, nor to terminate in one man (see Calvin 2 Thess. 2:3; Dan. 7:9). Moreover, when the mark by which he distinguishes Antichrist is, that he would rob God of his honour and take it to himself, he gives the leading feature which we ought to follow in searching out Antichrist; especially when pride of this description proceeds to the open devastation of the Church. Seeing then it is certain that the Roman Pontiff has impudently transferred to himself the most peculiar properties of God and Christ, there cannot be a doubt that he is the leader and standard-bearer of an impious and abominable kingdom. (Calvin’s Institutes IV:7:25)

Wat je constant ziet is dat de hervormers de kleine hoorn aan 2 thessalonicenzen de 'man van zonde' koppelen.

Allemaal waren ze het erover eens dat dat de papacy was.

Martin Luther (1483-1546) [founder of the Lutheran Church]
“nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist….For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny.” Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196-197 Learn More about Martin Luther

John Calvin (1509-1564) [founder of the Presbyterian Church]
“I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist--I deny him to be the successor of Peter..I deny him to be the head of the church.” “Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt…I shall briefly show that (Pauls words in 2 Thessalonians 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy” John Calvin, Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 219,220. John Calvin, Institutes.

John Wesley (1703-1791) [founder of the Methodist Church]
“He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers… He it is…that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped… claiming the highest power, and highest honor… claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Albert Close, Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, London: Thynne and Co., 1917, p. 110.

King James (1566-1625) [Authorized the King James Version of the Bible]
“The faithfull praiseth God for the Popes destruction, and their deliverance," and for "the plagues which are to light on him and his followers." "The Pope by his Pardons makes merchandise of the soules of men: Heaven and the Saints reioyce at his destruction, albiet the earth and the worldlings lament for the same" James I, Paraphrase, in Workes, pp. 47, 57

John Wycliffe (1324-1384) [Completed the 1st English translation of the Bible]
“Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another Antichrist? Hence in the seventh chapter of Daniel Antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the 4th kingdom. For it grew from [among] our powerful ones, more horrible, more cruel, and more greedy, because by reckoning the pagans and our Christians by name, a lesser [greater?] struggle for the temporals is not recorded in any preceding time. Therefore the ten horns are the whole of our temporal rulers, and the horn has arisen from the ten horns, having eyes and a mouth speaking great things against the Lofty One, and wearing out the saints of the Most High, and thinking that he is able to change times and laws.” (Daniel 7:8, 25 quoted) …"For so our clergy foresee the lord pope, as it is said of the eighth blaspheming little head." Translated from Wyclif's, De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae, vol. 3 pp. 262, 263 Learn more about John Wyclif

William Tyndale (1484-1536) [1st translator of the Bible from the Greek]
“The pope's forbidding matrimony, and to eat of meats created of God for man's use, which is devilish doctrine by Paul's prophecy,… are tokens good enough that he is the right antichrist, and his doctrine sprung of the devil.” 1 Timothy 4:1-3 Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue, in Works, vol. 3, p. 171 Visit http://www.williamtyndale.com for more information on William Tyndale.

John Knox (1505-1572) [Scottish Reformer]
He preached that Romish traditions and ceremonies should be abolished along with “that tyranny which the Pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that he should be acknowledged as "the son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." In a public challenge he declared: "As for your Roman Church, as it is now corrupted… I no more doubt but that it is the synagogue of Satan, and the head therof, called the Pope, to be the man of sin of whom the apostle speaketh." Knox, The Zurich Letters, p.199

Philip Melanchthon (1497-1560) [Associate of Martin Luther]
“Since it is certain that the pontiffs and the monks have forbidden marriage, it is most manifest, and true without any doubt, that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole order and kingdom, is very Antichrist. Likewise in 2 Thess. II, Paul clearly says that the man of sin will rule in the church exalting himself above the worship of God, etc." Translated from Melanchthon, Disputationes, No. 56, "De Matrimonio", in Opera (Corpus Reformatorum), vol. 12 col. 535

Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531) [great Swiss reformer quoted on Dec. 28, 1524]
“I know that in it works the might and power of the Devil, that is, of the Antichrist… the Papacy has to be abolished… But by no other means can it be more thoroughly routed than by the word of God (2 Thessalonians 2), because as soon as the world receives this in the right way, it will turn away from the Pope without compulsion.” Principle Works of Zwingli, Vol. 7, p. 135.

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door Ali_Kannibali op 28-02-2013 17:09:45 ]
pi_123462880
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:56 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Wat wordt er bedoeld met "het einde"? Het kan gaan om het einde van het Joodse volk als uitverkoren volk. Jezus wees immers zijn volgelingen erop dat ze moesten vluchten uit Jeruzalem als ze zagen dat Jeruzalem omsingeld werd zoals voorzegd in het boek van Daniel.

Echter ik kan nu simpelweg nog niet concluderen of heel Daniel alleen voor het Joodse volk was. Laten we eerst stapje voor stapje uitzoeken wat de kleine hoorn van Daniel 7 is. Ik zei Vespinianus, echter deze keizer regeerde pas vanaf 69 nc en de onderdrukking begon al vanaf 66 nc. Welke interpretatie we ook kiezen er lijken aldoor haken en ogen aan te zitten. Echter vind ik de ZDA interpretatie wel heel erg veel haken en ogen hebben.
De ZDA interpretatie is de interpretatie van de hervormers en de enige consistente, mag men denk ik wel concluderen na 500 jaar aan studie van het onderwerp. Het begrip van die profetie maakte de reformatie mogelijk en zodoende al het andere goede wat er vervolgens voort is gekomen. Zonder het begrip van die profetie hadden we nu nog steeds in de middeleeuwen geleefd en geen bijbel beschikbaar gehad.

De enige reden waarom we die interpretatie vandaag niet meer geloven is omdat de Jezuieten er een stokje voor hebben gestoken.

Persoonlijk ben ik niet zo geinteresseerd in het debunken van alle wilde - en vergezochte - theorien over wie de kleine hoorn is. Dat zou me teveel tijd kosten. Lees je eerst een goed in in waar de interpretatie vandaan komt en waarom, en bekijk dan de alternatieve theorien - futurisme en preterisme - met je nieuwe wapenarsenaal. Wanneer je een conclusie bereikt hebt, zullen we daar over spreken, maar nu is dat vrij zinloos omdat je elke 5 minuten van interpretatie kan veranderen en sowieso niet openstaat voor wat ik zeg aangezien ik ZDA vertegenwoordig.

[ Bericht 6% gewijzigd door Ali_Kannibali op 28-02-2013 17:09:03 ]
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 17:11:49 #74
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123463222
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 17:02 schreef Ali_Kannibali het volgende:
the faith. But when he adds, that in his own time, the mystery of iniquity, which was afterwards to be openly manifested, had begun to work in secret, we thereby understand that this calamity was neither to be introduced by one man, nor to terminate in one man (see Calvin 2 Thess. 2:3; Dan. 7:9). Moreover, when the mark by which he distinguishes Antichrist is, that he would rob God of his honour and take it to himself, he gives the leading feature which we ought to follow in searching out Antichrist; especially when pride of this description proceeds to the open devastation of the Church. Seeing then it is certain that the Roman Pontiff has impudently transferred to himself the most peculiar properties of God and Christ, there cannot be a doubt that he is the leader and standard-bearer of an impious and abominable kingdom. (Calvin’s Institutes IV:7:25)
Bedankt dat je de moeite hebt genomen dit op te zoeken. :)

Wat ik hieruit opmaak is dat idd de RKK de antichristus vertegenwoordigt. Dat lijkt me ook wel duidelijk. Echter merk ook op dat Calvijn stelt dat Daniel 7 over Antiochus gaat en dat dat dient als type voor de RKK maar niet op de RKK zelf. Ik denk ook in dit kader dat Luther overeenkomsten zag. Echter om te stellen dat de RKK de kleine hoorn is uit Daniel 7 is discutabel. Ik zal me er eerst nog eens in verdiepen idd om dit mysterie op te lossen. ;)
pi_123463560
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 17:11 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Bedankt dat je de moeite hebt genomen dit op te zoeken. :)

Wat ik hieruit opmaak is dat idd de RKK de antichristus vertegenwoordigt. Dat lijkt me ook wel duidelijk. Echter merk ook op dat Calvijn stelt dat Daniel 7 over Antiochus gaat en dat dat dient als type voor de RKK maar niet op de RKK zelf. Ik denk ook in dit kader dat Luther overeenkomsten zag. Echter om te stellen dat de RKK de kleine hoorn is uit Daniel 7 is discutabel. Ik zal me er eerst nog eens in verdiepen idd om dit mysterie op te lossen. ;)
Calvijn gelooft ook in predestinatie en nog wel meer errors. Calvijn is niet God en zijn woord is niet autoriteit. Het was om te illustreren dat de ZDA interpretatie niet ZDA-bedacht is maar protestants. Dat maakt het zo sneaky om te doen alsof alles wat ZDA leert ook door ZDA zelf voor het eerst onderwezen is, terwijl het meeste van de hervormers komt. Maar die hervormers zijn al effectief uit de weg geruimd want de hele protestantse wereld is inmiddelds terug in bed met Rome, dus blijft alleen ZDA over als kerk om omver te werpen (al zien we helaas ook in ZDA elementen die hier naar toe sturen, al weten we beide wie die elementen zijn).
pi_123464086
Hier een schitterende video hoe de ZDA eigenlijk heeft voortgeborduurd op het werk van de verschillende hervormers, zoals o.a. Wycliff, Wesley, Calvijn, Luther en hoe daarbij de verschillende attributen uit de tabernakel (Heiligdom leer) weer één voor één op hun plaats werden hersteld, die door de RKK waren "vertrapt":

pi_123467491
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 16:51 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

[..]

De middeleeuwen met de heksenjacht. Ook zoiets afschuwelijks.
Niet zo geloven die wiseguy-23 en Ali.

Deze mensen zijn protestant, en die hebben bij voorbaat al een hekel aan de Rooms Katholieken. Ze spugen in principe op hun eigen spiegelbeeld en in de hand die hen gevoed heeft.

Zij geloven namelijk in propaganda van de protestanten, die zij vertelden over de RK ten tijde van de 80-jarige oorlog. Veel mensen menen bijvoorbeeld dankzij deze propaganda dat de RK niet wilde dat leken de bijbel lazen, terwijl het gewone volk de bijbel gewoon mocht lezen, zelfs in de eigen taal.

Ook doen ze alsof de RK zoveel verschrikkelijke dingen heeft gedaan, terwijl ze zelf net zo erg waren op het moment dat ze opkwamen. Kijk maar naar de strijd in de 80jarige oorlog, toen de geuzen bepaalde steden innamen werd daar de RK in de ban gedaan. Priesters vermoord, kastelen geplunderd. Deze mensen waren net zo erg, maar hadden het geluk dat ze in 500 na Christus nog niet bestonden. Het hele christelijk geloof is omgeven van strijd en problemen. Zelfs toen de RK er nog niet was!
"Bettler aber sollte man ganz abschaffen! Wahrlich, man ärgert sich ihnen zu geben und ärgert sich ihnen nicht zu geben."
Friedrich Nietzsche
pi_123468055
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 18:50 schreef BerjanII het volgende:

[..]

Niet zo geloven die wiseguy-23 en Ali.

Deze mensen zijn protestant, en die hebben bij voorbaat al een hekel aan de Rooms Katholieken. Ze spugen in principe op hun eigen spiegelbeeld en in de hand die hen gevoed heeft.

Zij geloven namelijk in propaganda van de protestanten, die zij vertelden over de RK ten tijde van de 80-jarige oorlog. Veel mensen menen bijvoorbeeld dankzij deze propaganda dat de RK niet wilde dat leken de bijbel lazen, terwijl het gewone volk de bijbel gewoon mocht lezen, zelfs in de eigen taal.

Ook doen ze alsof de RK zoveel verschrikkelijke dingen heeft gedaan, terwijl ze zelf net zo erg waren op het moment dat ze opkwamen. Kijk maar naar de strijd in de 80jarige oorlog, toen de geuzen bepaalde steden innamen werd daar de RK in de ban gedaan. Priesters vermoord, kastelen geplunderd. Deze mensen waren net zo erg, maar hadden het geluk dat ze in 500 na Christus nog niet bestonden. Het hele christelijk geloof is omgeven van strijd en problemen. Zelfs toen de RK er nog niet was!
Het geloof heeft vele oorlogen opgeleverd. Tot op de dag van vandaag.
pi_123468157
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 19:00 schreef Lavenderr het volgende:

[..]

Het geloof heeft vele oorlogen opgeleverd. Tot op de dag van vandaag.
Precies, maar maak dat gelovigen maar wijs. Die zeggen dan gewoon: Dat waren dan geen echte .... (noem maar een geloof). Het welbekende notruescotsman.
"Bettler aber sollte man ganz abschaffen! Wahrlich, man ärgert sich ihnen zu geben und ärgert sich ihnen nicht zu geben."
Friedrich Nietzsche
pi_123468765
Voor de duidelijkheid, wanneer we het over Rome of de Rooms katholieke kerk hebben hebben we het over het instituut en de geest achter het instituut, niet over de gewone doorsnee rooms katholiek die verder ook geen flauw benul heeft waar ie bij betrokken is. Nee, de meeste priesters en bisschoppen weten dat volgens mij niet eens. Ik heb een aantal katholieke vrienden dus ben geen 'katholiekenhater' of oid.

De bijbel zelf veroordeelt het systeem en met goede redenen. Er is geen schaamte om de zaken bij naam te noemen, zonder meteen wapens op te pakken en mensen neer te hakken. Ik citeer hierbij graat Luther:

''Let the minds clash - but keep the fists down''

[ Bericht 5% gewijzigd door Ali_Kannibali op 28-02-2013 19:40:23 ]
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 19:50:17 #81
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123470661
Dit is zo epic

[youtube][/youtube]
mbt tot de stelling dat geloof oorlogen heeft veroorzaakt:

34Denk niet dat ik gekomen ben om op aarde vrede te brengen. Ik ben niet gekomen om vrede te brengen, maar het zwaard. 35Want ik kom een wig drijven tussen een man en zijn vader, tussen een dochter en haar moeder en tussen een schoondochter en haar schoonmoeder; 36de vijanden van de mensen zijn hun eigen huisgenoten! 37Wie meer van zijn vader of moeder houdt dan van mij, is mij niet waard, en wie meer houdt van zijn zoon of dochter dan van mij, is mij niet waard. 38Wie niet zijn kruis op zich neemt en mij volgt, is mij niet waard. 39Wie zijn leven probeert te behouden zal het verliezen, maar wie zijn leven verliest omwille van mij, die zal het behouden.
pi_123476415
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 19:50 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:
Dit is zo epic

[youtube][/youtube]
mbt tot de stelling dat geloof oorlogen heeft veroorzaakt:

34Denk niet dat ik gekomen ben om op aarde vrede te brengen. Ik ben niet gekomen om vrede te brengen, maar het zwaard. 35Want ik kom een wig drijven tussen een man en zijn vader, tussen een dochter en haar moeder en tussen een schoondochter en haar schoonmoeder; 36de vijanden van de mensen zijn hun eigen huisgenoten! 37Wie meer van zijn vader of moeder houdt dan van mij, is mij niet waard, en wie meer houdt van zijn zoon of dochter dan van mij, is mij niet waard. 38Wie niet zijn kruis op zich neemt en mij volgt, is mij niet waard. 39Wie zijn leven probeert te behouden zal het verliezen, maar wie zijn leven verliest omwille van mij, die zal het behouden.
Ik zou me voor mijn innerlijke gemoedsrust toch niet erg prettig voelen bij zo'n schepper.
Question authorities, fuck religion, educate yourself, Viva el individualismo!
There's only one way of life, and that's your own!
  donderdag 28 februari 2013 @ 22:30:39 #83
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123480442
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 21:30 schreef truthortruth het volgende:

[..]

Ik zou me voor mijn innerlijke gemoedsrust toch niet erg prettig voelen bij zo'n schepper.
Nja je moet het wel in zijn juiste context bekijken. Jezus wil mensen redden van de eeuwige dood en brengt daartoe een mooie boodschap in de wereld. Echter de duivel oefent heel veel macht uit op deze wereld en wil voorkomen dat mensen deze mooie boodschap aannemen en zo behouden blijven. Dit zorgt voor oorlogen en strijd etc. Het is dus een boodschap van liefde, maar liefde wordt door Satan niet op prijs gesteld.
  vrijdag 1 maart 2013 @ 01:10:39 #84
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123487912
Chapter I - Doctrines and Methods of Seventh-day Adventists (Back to Top)
Seventh-day Adventism originated about seventy-five years ago in the work of Mr. Miller, who set the time for the end of the world in 1843-4. Adding some doctrines to the original faith, Elder James White and wife in 1846 became the leaders of the Seventh-day branch of Adventism. Their headquarters were at different times at Paris, Me., Saratoga, Oswego, and Rochester, N.Y. In 1855 they settled permanently at Battle Creek, Mich., which remained the center of the work till recently.

Their Doctrines

In doctrine they differ radically from evangelical churches. The main points are these as taught in all their books: They hold to the materiality of all things; believe in the sonship of Christ; believe that they only have a correct understanding of the prophecies to which they give most of their attention; that the end of the world is to occur in this generation; that we are now in the Judgment which began in 1844; that the Seventh day, Saturday, must be kept; that keeping Sunday is the mark of the beast; that all should pay tithes; that Mrs. White is inspired as were the writers of the Bible; that the Bible must be interpreted to harmonize with her writings; that they are called of God to give the last warning to the World; that the dead are unconscious; that the wicked and the devil will be annihilated; that all churches but their own are Babylon and rejected of God; that everybody but themselves will soon become spiritualists; that when Christ comes only 144,000 out of all then living on the earth will be saved, and all these will be Seventh-day Adventists. Hence, they have no fellowship with other Christians; never work with them in any way, but zealously proselyte from all.

They believe in the Bible, in conversion, in purity of life, in rigid temperance, in strict morality, and in other good things common to all churches. There are many excellent persons among them. In character they are not to be compared with the spiritualists, infidels, etc., as is sometimes unjustly done.

The Extent of Their Work

Their Year Book for 1912 reports the following:

Conferences, 129; mission fields, 87; organized churches, 2,769; membership, 90,808; unorganized, 15,758; total, 104,528. Ordained ministers, 828; licensed ministers, 458; missionaries, 1,234; book canvassers, 1,697; total laborers, 4,346; Sabbath Schools, 4,151; membership, 101,161; church schools, 594; students, 13,357; colleges and academies, 86; students, 7,169; publishing houses, 28; employees, 610; sanitariums, 74; employees, 1,989; tithes, $1,338,689.65; average per member, $12.81; contributions for missions, home church work, tithes and all funds by the denomination, $2,223,767.52.

They publish 121 periodicals in twenty-eight languages. Books and tracts published in ninety-one languages.

The above will give a fair idea of the strength of that church. However, their main efficiency is in the distribution of their literature. Every member, old and young, down to little children, is taught and urged to engage in every way possible in distributing these tracts, papers and books through every possible channel. Every one believes he is doing God's work when he does this. Hence every member is a missionary in some way. The result is their literature is coming to be widely scattered the world over. Yet the results of all this tremendous outlay of money and work are very meagre. In the last four years with 4,000 laborers in the field, they have only averaged a gain of 4,000 members per year, or one for every worker. They have been at work now for seventy-five years to get 104,000 members. The Mormons, starting about the same date, now number 500,000, nearly five times as many. The Christian Scientists, only about half as old, have over a million members. There is very little real spiritual power in it. The work is done mostly by hard labor and argument, not by any such mighty power as attended the work of the Apostles, or Luther, or Wesley, or Moody and many others. Their work now extends to all parts of the civilized world and into many heathen lands.

The number of their actual converts does not tell the harm they do. Where they convert one they confuse a score, who after that have no settled faith in any church, and are useless for any Christian work. Other conscientious persons are bothered and worried over it for years, not knowing what to do.

Their Hostility to All Other Churches

One of the highly objectionable features of that system is the bitter hostility of its believers towards all other churches. Their theory is that all churches but their own were utterly rejected of God in 1844 for not embracing Miller's doctrine. Thus Mrs. White says: "I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall [in 1844]. They have been growing more and more corrupt.... Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body.... The churches were left as were the Jews; and they have been filling up with every unclean and hateful bird. I saw great iniquity and vileness in the churches; yet they profess to be Christians. Their professions, their prayers and their exhortations are an abomination in the sight of God. Said the angel, God will not smell in their assemblies. Selfishness, fraud and deceit are practiced by them without the reprovings of conscience." Spiritual Gifts, Vol. I, page 189, 190. She says it is the devil who answers their prayers. Thus: "I saw them look up to the throne and pray, Father give us thy spirit; Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence." Early Writings, page 47. Again: "The nominal churches are filled with fornication and adultery, crime and murder, the result of base, lustful passion; but these things are kept covered." Testimonies, Vol. II, page 449. All intelligent people know that such statements are a misrepresentation of the evangelical churches today. Elder White says: "Babylon, the nominal church, is fallen; God's people have come out of her. She is now the synagogue of Satan." Present Truth. April, 1850.

Hence they say that the revivals and conversions in the churches are largely a deception, the work of the devil, not of God. Mrs. White says of them: "The converts are not renewed in heart or changed in character." "They will exult that God is working marvelously for them, when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise, Satan will spread his influence over the land. HE HOPES TO DECEIVE MANY BY LEADING THEM TO THINK THAT GOD IS STILL WITH THE CHURCHES." Great Controversy, page 294, 296. On this the Review and Herald, May 3, 1887, says: "we are aware that to assume that this revival work, so unquestionably accepted by all the churches, is not genuine, will cause the hands of Christendom to be raised in holy horror.... If He [God] is with us, He has not been with the popular churches in any marked manner since they rejected the Advent message of 1843-4, and they are congratulating themselves over delusive appearances, and a prosperity which has no existence in fact. The hand of God cannot direct two movements so antagonistic in nature."

Believing this, they eagerly watch for evidence to prove it and shut their eyes to any facts against it. So they rejoice at any unfavorable thing they can hear against ministers, churches, or members. They report it, repeat it, publish it, magnify it, and live on it. To weaken, divide, or break up a church, is their delight. They heartily join with worldlings, infidels and atheists in their opposition to churches, and thus strengthen their unbelief and help them to perdition. They have gathered up all the most unfavorable things possible to find against the churches and put it in a book occupying thirty pages, and this they hand out for all to read. It is sad to see honest men devoting their lives to such highly censurable work, which must please Satan well.

Who is Deceived?

Seventh-day Adventists dwell much on how easy it is to be deceived, to be led by Satan, when we think it is the Lord - to believe a lie for the truth. It is amusing to see how innocently they apply this to all others, and never dream that is has any application to themselves! What, THEY deceived? THEY misled? Impossible! They KNOW they are right. Exactly, and that is just the way all feel, whether they be Mormons, Shakers, Catholics, or what not. The Adventists themselves are an illustration of the ease with which people are misled.

Their Methods of Work

Tent Meetings. Largely they use tents to enter new fields. Being a novelty, they attract attention. At first they present subjects which will offend no one till they gain the confidence of the people. Gradually they introduce their peculiar dogmas, then come out more boldly, till at length they denounce all other churches as Babylon, and their pastors as hirelings and deceivers. They say these pastors cannot defend their doctrines; dare not try. They offer rewards to any who will prove so and so; boast how they have scared this one, defeated that one, and silenced another. If in sermons the least reference is made to them, they call it persecution, give out a review, and do everything to provoke controversy. When the resident pastors are compelled to defend themselves, the Adventists claim to be greatly abused.

If a doctor, lawyer, teacher, or business man should enter a town and denounce all others of his profession as quacks, fools, or deceivers, how would he be treated? All would combine against him as a common enemy.

This is the way the pastors and churches meet the attacks of the Adventists, because compelled to. Like Ishmael of old, the hand of the Adventist is against every man, and hence every man's hand is against them. Gen 16:12. It is useless for them to deny this, for all know it to be true. They all do it. I was taught that way and followed it, and taught others to do the same.

Camp meeting. Adventists hold many camp-meetings yearly. Here their ablest speakers preach their doctrines to thousands, and distribute their literature widely. They hire the papers to print lengthy flattering reports of their meetings, which they write themselves. Their reporters are trained for this special work. They gain wide attention, and impress many in this way.

Bible Readings. Hundreds of their men, women, and even young girls, are trained with printed lessons which they learn by heart, to go from house to house and give Bible readings. At first they conceal their real object and name, till they get a foothold. Then they cautiously introduce their tenets, work against pastors and churches, and lead many away.

Book-selling. Hundreds also are employed to canvass for their doctrinal books. The real nature of the book is studiously concealed, and the subscriber is deceived into buying a radical Advent book.

Distribution of Tracts. In every possible way, publicly, privately, from tent or church, by book-agents, colporteurs, Bible-readers, or private individuals, in depots, on boats, in stores, or families, through the mails, by sale, loan or gift, their tracts are persistently crowded everywhere.

Missions. They have Missions in many of the large cities and in foreign lands; but they are largely proselyting agencies. They do little among the heathen, or for the destitute and fallen, but go into the best families to which they can gain access, and gather the converts whom other missionaries have made. Thus Mrs. White instructs them: "Mistakes have been made in not seeking to reach ministers and the higher classes with the truth.... Educate men and women to labor for these higher classes both here and there and in other countries." Testimony No. 33, pages 108, 109. Jesus sent his disciples into the highways and hedges for the poor, lame and blind, for publicans, harlots and sinners; but Mrs. White does not relish that kind. She wants them from "the ministers and higher classes," "the whole who need no physician," those who can bring talent and money into the cause.

Where They Work. Adventists have the best success in new fields, where they are least known. Hence the western States is where they are most numerous. In New England, where they started, they have had to struggle hard to hold their own. In some of the older fields they have lost in numbers, in others the gain is very small. In hundreds of places where they were fair sized, active churches in the past, now no church at all, or a straggling, discouraged handful. Battle Creek is a fair illustration. This was their headquarters for forty years. Once there were 2,000 Sabbath keepers here, all united. Now there are less than 1,000, divided into four opposing parties, their influence entirely gone. The same is true elsewhere. About all the converts they make are at the outset. After a few years' acquaintance, they have no influence and few or none join them. Their churches grow smaller, generally, till they are unnoticed. The average membership of their churches is 29 - exceedingly small; how different from the evangelical churches! The longer these are in a town the stronger they grow, and the more influence they have generally. But Adventism does not wear.

How to Meet Adventism

People are led into Adventism from lack of information. Hence, when Adventism enters a town the people should be told plainly what it is, what its effects are, and wherein it is unscriptural. Quite generally pastors make a mistake in letting it alone for weeks, till it has gained a foothold. I always noticed that where the pastors united and worked against us on the start, we could do but little. So I would advise churches and pastors to take right hold of the matter earnestly as soon as people are interested in it. Preach on it; visit those who are being led away; hold Bible-readings; furnish them with proper books and tracts. Sit down patiently and answer arguments. Visit them again and again. Adventists will work a whole year, will go a hundred times, will give them scores of tracts to proselyte one person. If we would work a tenth as hard, scarcely one would be led away. People love to be noticed. The very attention they receive from the Adventists often wins them more than their arguments.

What Will Be Their End?

Adventism is founded on time, and time will kill it. It began by setting a definite time, 1844, for the end of the world, and failed. Now they hold that it must come in this generation beginning in 1844. This is only another way of time setting. In time all this will fail and overthrow their system. Then will come doubt, discouragement, divisions, apostasies, infidelity, and ruin to souls. This end is inevitable. The wider their influence now, the more terrible the disaster then. These wild, enthusiastic, fanatical moves which end in failure are the delight of Satan, as they bring disgrace upon the cause of Christ and end in infidelity. That such will be the end of Adventism I have not a doubt.

Lack of Education and Talent Among the Adventist Leaders

The men whom God has chosen to lead out in the great religious movements of the past have, with few exceptions, been men of high education, refinement, and great talents. Moses, the founder of Judaism, "was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds." Acts 7:22. Nehemiah, who restored Jerusalem after the captivity, was cup-bearer to the king. Neh 2. So Daniel, the great prophet, had "knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom." Dan 1:17. He was prime minister of a mighty empire for many years. Paul was so renowned for his learning, that the king said to him: "Much learning doth make thee mad." Acts 26:24. He did for Christianity ten times more than all the other apostles together. It is to him, and not to the other apostles, that the Gentile world is indebted for Christianity. Then the twelve, though uneducated, had the advantage over all other reformers, that they were taught directly by the Son of God, and could work miracles.

St. Augustine, A.D. 353-430, the father of Christian theology, to whom the church owes almost as much as to Paul, was highly educated. As is well known, Luther was a thorough scholar, educated in the best schools of his day, and filled a professor's chair in a university. So Calvin and Melanchton were both profound scholars, occupying professor's chairs in halls of learning. Zwingle, the great Swiss reformer, was celebrated for his learning and scholarship. Wiclif [sp], the "Morning Star of the Reformation," was a graduate of Oxford, England, and a doctor of divinity. Cranmer, the great English reformer, was a graduate, a doctor of divinity, archbishop, and regent of the kingdom. Wesley, the father of Methodism, was a graduate of Oxford, a man of vast reading, the author or editor of commentaries, grammars, dictionaries, etc. It is a false idea that God generally uses ignorant men as leaders in reform, as the above great names will show.

Now look at the founders of our heretical sects. Joanna Southcott was wholly illiterate, a mere washer-woman. Ann Lee, the foundress of the Shakers, received no education, worked in a cotton factory, and was cook in a hospital. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, received no education, and Brigham Young very little. Not one of these persons were of influence in the world, outside of their own deluded followers.

How is it with the leaders of Adventism? Wm. Miller, the founder, was reared in the backwoods, in poverty, and received only the poor advantages of a common district school. Except some general reading, this was the extent of his education.

Elder White, the leader of the Seventh-day Adventists' party, only secured sufficient education to teach a common district school. He was no student of books. In all my travels with him, I seldom saw him read half an hour in any book. Of the languages or the sciences he knew nothing, and little even of common history. Mrs. White received no school education, except a few weeks when a child. She, like Joanna Southcott, Ann Lee, and Joseph Smith, was wholly illiterate, not knowing the simplest rules of grammar. Not one of the leading men in that work ever graduated from college or university, and many are illiterate as Mrs. White herself. Elder J.N. Andrews, Elder Smith, and one or two more, by diligent study and reading out of school, became well informed men in their line. After Elder White came Elders Butler and Haskell as leaders, neither of them educated men, nor of half the natural talent of Elder White. The present leaders are small men also. Such men are poorly prepared to lead out in a great reformation in this educated age. Not a man among them has now, or ever had, a particle of influence in the world, or any office or responsible position in state or nation. How different from the great reformers of the past, who often had extensive influence for good, not only with the masses, but with the great men and kings of earth. Hence, from whatsoever side we view Adventism, it has none of the marks of a genuine reformation sent of God to bless the world.

Elder A.A. Phelps, for years editor of a First-day Adventist paper says: "I watched and waited, and worked, with patience, meakness and loyalty, in hearty co-operation, and with an earnest desire to see such unity, enterprise, breadth and moral power, as ought to characterize a scriptural and heaven-inspired movement. How slowly and reluctantly I yielded to the conviction - forced by sad facts and illustrations that I have not even dared to detail - that I was only throwing away my life in stemming such waves of discord, indolence, looseness, narrowness, dogmatism and spiritual death as I could not overcome."

Reader, if you are still outside of this spiritual Babylon, take warning from those who have been through the mill, and stay out.

Later, 1914. Already strong men among them admit that, (1) Mrs. White had made many mistakes in her inspired (?) writing; (2) Now contradicts what she once wrote; (3) Has copied from many other authors what she claims as revelations from God; (4) Has often been influenced by others to write what they wanted to help their projects. Time has proved this so clearly that it can no longer be denied. Hence her revelations are steadily losing influence with their able men. She is now eighty-seven years old and is reported as having largely lost her mind. The laity, specially in foreign lands, being ignorant of all these facts, still regard her as the voice of God to them.

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Chapter II - An Experience of Twenty-Eight Years in Adventism (Back to Top)
I long hesitated about bringing personal matters into this book, but could see no way to tell my story without it. My experience illustrates the power which error and superstition have over men. I am amazed at myself that I was held there so long, after my better judgment was convinced that it was an error. I propose to tell the simple facts, just as they were, hit whom they may. Public men become public property, and as such their conduct and work should be laid open and discussed. This is my reason for criticizing the course of Elder White and wife, and others. They invite criticism by claiming to be reformers, better than other people.

I was born in Kinderhook, Branch county, Mich., Sept. 22, 1840. I had no religious training till I was sixteen. I was converted among the Methodists under the labors of Rev. Mr. Hazzard, and baptized by him in 1858. I soon went to Albion, N.Y., to attend school. Here, in 1859, I heard Elder and Mrs. White. He preached on the Sabbath question. I was uneducated, and knew but little about the Bible. I had no idea of the relation between the Old and New Testaments, the law and the gospel, or the difference between the Sabbath and the Lord's day. I thought he proved that the seventh day was still binding, and that there was no authority for keeping Sunday.

As I was anxious to be right, I began keeping Saturday, but did not expect to believe any more of their doctrine. Of course I attended their meetings on Saturday and worked on Sunday. This separated me entirely from other Christians, and threw me wholly with the Adventists. I soon learned from them that all other churches were Babylon, in the dark and under the frown of God. Seventh-day Adventists were the only true people of God. They had "the truth," the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They defended Mr. Miller's work of 1844, believed in the visions of Mrs. White, the sleep of the dead, the annihilation of the wicked, feet washing, etc. At first these things staggered me, and I thought of drawing back; but they explained them plausibly and smoothed them over, and said they were no test anyway. Having no one to intelligently aid me, I began to see things as they did, and in a few weeks came to believe the whole system. I was again baptized, as their converts from other churches generally are, so as to get clean out of Babylon. Persuaded that time was short, I gave up going to school, dropped the study of all else, listened to their preaching, devoured their books and studied my Bible day and night to sustain these new views. I was now an enthusiastic believer, and longed to convert everybody to the faith. I had not a doubt that it was the pure truth. This is about the experience of all who go with them, as I have since learned.

In May, 1864, I was licensed to preach. Soon began with Elder Van Horn at Ithaca, Mich. We had good success; raised up three companies that year. In 1865 worked in Tuscola county, and had excellent success. Was ordained by Elder White that year. Up to this date I had not a doubt about the truthfulness of our faith. As I now began to see more of Elder White and wife, and the work at headquarters, I learned that there was much trouble with him. I saw that he ruled everything, and that all greatly feared him. I saw that he was often cross and unreasonable. This troubled me a little, but not seriously. In 1866 I was sent to Maine with Elder J.N. Andrews, the ablest man among them. This was a big thing for me. I threw myself into the work with great enthusiasm, and was very happy. Elder Andrews was strong in the faith and very radical, and I partook of his spirit. We had excellent success. By this time I had become quite a writer. I returned to Battle Creek in 1867. At that time there was great trouble with Elder White, and many church meetings were held to investigate the matter. It was clear to me that he was wrong, but Mrs. White sustained him in her "Testimonies" and severely blamed the church. Elder Andrews and a few others proposed to stand up for the right, and take the consequences. My sympathies were with them; but others feared, and finally all wilted and confessed that "we have been blinded by Satan." This was signed by the leading ministers, and humbly adopted by the whole church. See "Testimonies," Vol. 1, page 612. This shook my faith a good deal, and I began to question Mrs. White's inspiration. I saw that her revelations always favored Elder White and herself. If any dared question their course, they soon received a scathing revelation denouncing the wrath of God against them.

About this time several of our able ministers, with quite a party in the West, drew off from the body, in opposition to Elder White and the visions. They were denounced as "rebels," were doomed to perdition, and it was predicted that they would soon come to ruin! But they have continued their work for about fifty years, having several thousand believers. Their headquarters are at Stanberry, Missouri, where they publish two papers, books, etc. They have done a good work in exposing the fallacy of Mrs. White's inspiration.

But I dared not open my mind to a soul. I was only a youth, and had little experience. Older and stronger men had broken down and confessed. What could I do? I said nothing, but felt terribly. I wished I had never heard of the Adventists. Shortly I was back on my field in Maine. Busy with my work, preaching our doctrine, and surrounded with men who firmly believed it, I soon got over my doubts. I have since learned that scores of others have gone through a similar trial.

In 1868 I went to Massachusetts. Being away from the trouble at headquarters, I got on finely. But in May, 1869, I was in Battle Creek for a month. Things were in bad shape. Elder White was in trouble with most of the leading men, and they with him. I was well convinced that he was the real cause of it all, but Mrs. White sustained him, and that settled it. They were God's chosen leaders, and must not be criticized or meddled with. I felt sad. I was working hard to get men into "the truth," as we called it; to persuade them that this was a people free from the faults of other churches; then to see such a state of things among the leaders disheartened me greatly. So far, I myself had had no trouble with any one, and Elder White had been very cordial to me. But I saw then that if I ever came to be of any prominence in the work I should have to expect the same treatment from him that all of the others got. The more I saw of the work, the more objections I saw to it. I will not stop to give them here, as I will give them together in Chapter V.

I had been so thoroughly drilled in the Advent doctrines that I firmly believed the Bible taught them all. To give up the Advent faith was to give up the Bible. So all my brethren said, and so I thought. That year I went to Iowa to work, where I remained four years, laboring with Elder Butler, who soon became president of their general conference. We had good success and raised up several churches. I finally opened my mind to Elder Butler, and told him my fears. I knew these things troubled him as well as myself, for we often spoke of them. He helped me some, and again I gathered courage and went on, feeling better. Still, I came to see each year more and more that somehow the thing did not work as I had supposed it would and ought. Wherever Elder White and wife went they were always in trouble with the brethren, and the best ones, too. I came to dread to meet them, or have them come where I was, for I knew there would be trouble with some one or some thing, and it never failed of so being. I saw church after church split up by them, the best brethren discouraged and maddened and driven off, while I was compelled to apologize for them continually. For years about this time, the main business at all our big meetings was to listen to the complaints of Elder White against his brethren. Not a leading man escaped - Andrews, Waggoner, Smith, Loughborough, Amadon, Cornell, Aldrich, Walker, and a host of others had to take their turn at being broken on the wheel. For hours at a time, and times without number, I have sat in meetings and heard Elder White and wife denounce these men, till I felt there was little manhood left in them. It violated all my ideas of right and justice, and stirred my indignation. Yet, whatever vote was asked by Elder White, we all voted it unanimously, I with the rest. Then I would go out alone and hate myself for my cowardice, and despise my brethren for their weakness.

Elder and Mrs. White ran and ruled everything with an iron hand. Not a nomination to office, not a resolution, not an item of business was ever acted upon in business meetings until all had been first submitted to Elder White for his approval. Till years later, we never saw an opposition vote on any question, for no one dared to do it. Hence, all official voting was only a farce. The will of Elder White settled everything. If any one dared to oppose anything, however humbly, Elder White or wife quickly squelched him. Long years of such training taught people to let their leaders think for them; hence, they are under as complete subjection as are the Catholics.

These, with other things, threw me into doubt and discouragement, and tempted me to quit the work. I saw many an able minister and scores of valuable men leave us because they would not stand such treatment. I envied the faith and confidence of brethren who went on ignorant of all this, supposing that Battle Creek was a little heaven, when, in fact, it was as near purgatory as anything I could imagine. Many poor souls have gone there full of faith and hope, but have soon gone away infidels. In 1872 I went to Minnesota, where I had good success. By this time I had written much, and so was well known to all our people. In July, 1873, myself and wife went to Colorado to spend a few weeks with Elder White and wife, in the mountains. I soon found things very unpleasant living in the family. Now my turn had come to catch it, but instead of knuckling down, as most of the others had, I told the elder my mind freely. That brought us into open rupture. Mrs. White heard it all, but said nothing. In a few days she had a long written "testimony" for wife and me. It justified her husband in everything, and placed us as rebels against God, with no hope of heaven only by a full surrender to them. Wife and I read it over many times with tears and prayers; but could see no way to reconcile it with truth. It contained many statements which we knew were false. We saw that it was dictated by a spirit of retaliation, a determination to break our wills or crush us. For awhile we were in great perplexity, but still my confidence in much of the doctrine and my fear of going wrong held me; but I was perfectly miserable for weeks, not knowing what to do. However, I preached awhile in Colorado and then went to California, where I worked with my hands for three months, trying to settle what to do. Elders Butler, Smith, White and others wrote to us, and tried to reconcile us to the work. Not knowing what else to do, I finally decided to forget all my objections, and go along as before. So we confessed to Elder White all we could possibly, and he generously forgave us! But from that on my faith in the inspiration of Mrs. White was weak. Elder White was very friendly to me again after that.

Now the Adventists say that I have left them five times, and this is one of the five. It is utterly untrue. I simply stopped preaching for a few weeks, but did not withdraw from the church nor renounce the faith. If this is leaving them, then most of their leading men have left them, too, for they all have had their periods of trial when they left their work awhile. About 1856, Elders J.N. Andrews and J.N. Loughborough, who were then the most prominent ministers among them, and several other persons, left the work and went into business at Waukon, Iowa. Mrs. White gave an account of this in "Experience and Views," pages 219-222. Elder White and wife went there, and, after a long effort, brought them back. Mrs. White says: "A dissatisfied party had settled in Waukon.... Brother J.N. Loughborough in discouragement had gone to work at his trade. He was just about to purchase land," etc., page 222. These men did just what I did.

Elder Uriah Smith, by far the ablest man then in their ranks, also had his seasons of doubt, when he ceased to work, and engaged in secular employments. Hear his own confession: "That I have had in my experience occasional periods of trial, I do not deny. There have been times when circumstances seemed very perplexing; when the way to harmonize apparently conflicting views did not at once appear, and under what have seemed for the time strong provocations to withdraw from the work, I have canvassed the question how far this could reasonably be done, or how much of this work could consistently be surrendered." Replies to Elder Canright, page 107. His own words show that he has doubted different parts of the theory, the same as I did. For years we were on intimate terms; often traveled and labored together. We freely talked over these matters. His doubts and trials were very similar to my own. This ran through a long period of years, till it was feared that he would quit them entirely. His wife was nearly driven to insanity over similar trials. Finally they broke down, "confessed" the same as I did once, and now profess to be satisfied. He wrote to me that he had to endorse Mrs. White's visions out of policy. The thing is so unreasonable, that most of them at times are more or less troubled over it, just as I was. In the language of J.W. Morton, "I pity their delusions, and abominate the spiritual tyranny by which they and others are held to the most unscriptural dogmas. Even Mr. Smith, for whom, however he may denounce me, I entertain only the most kindly feelings, is in a position that calls for tender commiseration. He is expected, as the great man of the denomination (for he undoubtedly is by far the ablest man they have), to give a full and explicit endorsement of Mrs. White's claims of inspiration; and yet whoever scans his public utterances on this point - especially he who has skill to 'read between the lines' - can see that his endorsement is so feeble as to be no endorsement at all. Such a position is one in which I would not place my worst enemy. He is, in part at least, under the heel of a spiritual tyranny. Oh, that Uriah Smith had the courage, and the manliness, to assert, before God and man, his right to that 'soul liberty' which is the inheritance of every child of God!"

Elder Geo. I. Butler, who for many years took the place of Elder White as leader of the denomination, got into trial with his brethren, and, practically, out of the work. Till middle life he was a small farmer. Naturally he was a humble, good man, with a strong sense of fairness. Elder White became jealous of him. Later, Mrs. White also turned against him and required a servile submission which he would not make. Said when he could not be an Adventist, and be a man, then he would be a man, as others had decided. Disappointed and soured, under pretext of ill-health, he went off to Florida on a little farm - another example of the blighting effect of Adventism. He is now doing what I did two or three times, only from a different cause. Has he, then, left them?

In 1874 Elder White had arranged to have a big debate held at Napa City, Cal., between Elder Miles Grant, of Boston, Mass., and one of our ministers. Though Elder White and wife, Elder Cornell and Elder Loughborough, their ablest men, were there, they selected myself to defend our side, which I did for about a week, while the other ministers sat by. I mention this to show the confidence they had in me, though I had been in so great a trial but a few months before. In 1875 we returned to Michigan. Elder Butler was now out with Elder White, who took every possible opportunity to snub him; but I was in high favor, was sent to attend their state meetings in Vermont, Kansas, Ohio and Indiana. With Elder Smith, was sent as delegate to the Seventh-day Baptist General Conference. In 1876 I was sent to Minnesota, then to Texas, and so on through most of the Southern States, to look after our interests there. Each year greater responsibilities were laid upon me. That year I raised up a large church at Rome, New York, and labored over the State. Went with Elder White and wife to Indiana and Illinois, and was then sent to Kansas to hold a debate, and to Missouri for the same purpose. This year I was elected a member of the General Conference Committee of three, with Elder White and Elder Haskell, and continued on the committee two years. It is the highest official authority in the denomination.

In 1877 I went to New England, where I raised up two churches and did other work. I spent 1878 in general work in various States, as Massachusetts, Michigan, New York, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Colorado, and Ohio. In the fall was president of the Ohio conference. In 1879 labored in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, and Tennessee. At the general conference at Battle Creek in the fall, things were in a bad shape. Elder White was cross, and Mrs. White bore down heavy on several ministers. Harshness, fault-finding and trials were the order of the day. I felt that there was very little of the spirit of Christ present. I got away as quickly as possible. I saw more and more clearly that a spirit of oppression, criticism, distrust and dissension was the result of our work, instead of meekness, gentleness, and love among brethren. For the next whole year these feelings grew upon me, till I began to fear we were doing more harm than good. My work called me among old churches, where I could see the fruit of it. Generally they were cold and dead, backslidden, or in a quarrel, or nearly extinct, where once they had been large and flourishing churches. I lost heart to raise up more churches to go in the same way. One day I would decide to quit them entirely, and the next day I would resolve to go on and do the best I could. I never suffered more mental anguish in my life. I labored that year in New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Michigan and Ohio.

In the fall of 1880 I resolved to leave the Adventists, and, if I could, go with some other church. I was president of the Ohio conference. Our annual state meeting was at Clyde, Ohio. Elder and Mrs. White were there. My mind was made up to leave them as soon as the meeting was over. Against my protest they re-elected me president. Mrs. White urged it. Said I was just the man for the place; yet her special claim is to be able to reveal the hidden wrongs in the church. Here was an important matter. Why did she not have a revelation about it? No, I was all right so far as she knew. The next week I resigned, went east, and wrote Elder White that I would go with them no longer. Then she sent me a long written revelation, denouncing me as a child of hell, and one of the wickedest of men, though only two weeks before she thought me fit to be president of a conference!

For three months I taught elocution. I knew not what to do. I talked with ministers of other churches, but they did not seem to know how to help me. I could settle on nothing. I held on to my Christianity and love for Christ and the Bible, and preached and worked as I had opportunity. I was glad I had decided to leave the Adventists, and felt much better. Finally I met my present wife, who was an Adventist. Then I had a long talk with Elder Butler, Elder White, Mrs. White and others, and was persuaded that things were not as I had imagined. They said I was in the dark, led by Satan, and would go to ruin. All the influence of old friends, associations, habits and long cultivated ideas came up and were too strong for my better judgment. I yielded, and resolved again to live and die with them. In my judgment and conscience I was ashamed of the surrender I had made, yet I tried to feel right and go on.

Death of Elder White

Early in 1881 I went with Elder White to New York. By this time he had lost the leadership of the people. Elders Butler and Haskell had taken his place, and hence he was very hostile to them, working against them, and planning all the while to get them out and get back in again himself. But the people had largely lost confidence in him as a leader. He wished me to work with him against them, saying that we would then be on the General Conference Committee together. He had good grounds to oppose Haskell, who was always a crafty, underhanded man. Elder White wrote me thus: "February 11, 1881 - I wish Elder Haskell were an open, frank man, so I need not watch him." Again: "Battle Creek, Mich., May 24, 1881 - ...Elders Butler and Haskell have had an influence over her [his wife] that I hope to see broken. It has nearly ruined her. These men must not be suffered by our people to do as they have done... I want you to unite with me... It is time there was a change in the offices of the General Conference. I trust that if we are true and faithful, the Lord will be pleased that we should constitute two of that board."

I could give much more to show how little confidence the leading men had in each other. I wrote Elder White that I could not unite with him nor work with him. July 13, 1881, he wrote me again: "I have repeatedly abused you, and if you go to destruction, where many, to say the least, are willing you should go, I should ever feel that I had taken a part in your destruction.... I do not see how any man can labor with me." Soon after this he died. I have no doubt that Elder White believed in the Advent doctrine, and persuaded himself that he was called of God to be a leader. He had some excellent qualities, and doubtless meant to be a Christian, but his strong desire to rule and run everything, together with an irritable temper, kept him always in trouble with some one. No one could work with him long in peace. Elder Butler told me that his death was providential to save the body from a rupture. Mrs. White was so offended at Butler, that she would have no communication with him for a long while. All these things helped me to see that I was being led by selfish, ambitious men, who were poor samples of religious reformers.

That year I labored in Canada, Vermont, Maine, New England, and Michigan, and was elected member of the State Executive Committee of Michigan that fall. I worked another year in Michigan. But I was unhappy; I could not get over my doubts; I had no heart in the work. Several leading ministers in the State felt about the same. I then decided to quietly drop out of the ministry and go to farming. This I did for two years, but retained my membership with the church and worked right along with them. But I was in purgatory all the time, trying to believe what I could not. Yet I was not settled on any other church, and feared I might go wrong and so stood still. In the fall of 1884, Elder Butler, my old friend, and now at the head of the Advent work, made a great effort to get me reconciled and back at work again. He wrote me several times, to which I made no answer. Finally he telegraphed me, and paid my fare to a camp-meeting. Here I met old friends and associations, tried to see things as favorable as possible, heard explanations, etc., etc., till at last I yielded again. I was sick of an undecided position. I thought I could do some good here anyway; all my friends were here, I believed much of the doctrine still, and I might go to ruin if I left them, etc. Now I resolved to swallow all my doubts, believe the whole thing anyway, and stay with them for better or for worse. So I made a strong confession, of which I was ashamed before it was cold.

Was I satisfied? No. Deep in my heart I was ashamed of myself, but tried to feel that it was not so. But soon I felt better, because I had decided. Gradually my faith came back, till I again really felt strong in the whole doctrine, and had no idea I should ever leave it again. In a few weeks I was sent to attend large meetings in Pennsylvania, New York, Minnesota, Iowa, and New England; assisted in revival meetings in Battle Creek; was appointed with Elder Butler to lecture before the ministers on how to labor successfully; conducted a similar course in the Academy at South Lancaster, Mass.; was at the state meetings in New York, Michigan, Indiana and Ohio. In the spring of 1886 was appointed to lecture before the theological class in the Battle Creek College, and Associate Editor of the 'Sickle'.

By my urgent appeal, an effort was made to bring up our ministers to some plan of study in which they are very deficient. I was on the committee to arrange this. I selected the course of studies and framed all the questions, by which they were to be examined. I was then furnished a shorthand reporter, and in the summer was sent to ten different states, namely, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, Colorado, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Dakota, and Michigan, to attend their state conferences, examine their ministers, report their meetings for the daily press, etc., and this I did. In our conflict with the Disciples at Des Moines, Iowa, it was agreed that each side should select a representative man and hold a debate on the Sabbath question. They selected Professor D.R. Dungan, president of Drake University. Our people selected me. We expected a notable time, and I made every possible effort to be ready. That preparation did much to convince me of the unsoundness of some of our positions on the covenants, the two laws, etc. In our General Conference that fall, a sharp division occurred between our leading men over the law in Galatians. One party held it was the ceremonial law, the other the moral law - a square contradiction. After a long and warm discussion the conference closed, each party more confident than before. There was also much disagreement over other points of doctrine, and a good deal of warm party feeling. This, with other things, brought up my old feelings of doubt, and decided me that it was time for me now to examine and think for myself, and not be led nor intimidated by men who could not agree among themselves.

I used every minute I could get for several weeks, carefully and prayerfully examining all the evidence on the Sabbath, the law, the sanctuary, the visions, etc., till I had not a doubt left that the Seventh-day Advent faith was a delusion. Then I laid the matter before the leading men at Battle Creek, resigned all the positions I held, and asked to be dismissed from the church. This was granted February 17, 1887. That was the first and only time I ever withdrew from the church, nor was any charge ever made against me during the twenty-eight years I was with them. As soon as I took my stand firmly, to be a free man and think for myself, a great burden, which I had carried all these years, rolled off. I felt like a new man. At last I was out of bondage. I have never for a moment regretted the step I took.

They now report that I left them four or five times before, and then went back. This is entirely untrue. From the time I joined them, in 1859, till I withdrew, in 1887, I remained in good standing in that church. After I was licensed to preach in 1864, my credentials were renewed each year except one, when I was farming and did not ask for them. Till I left them, in 1887, I never preached nor wrote against them once; nor did I unite with any other church, nor teach any doctrine contrary to theirs. Let them deny any of these statements if they can. They say I may yet return to them. They know better. The moment I took my stand decidedly, that matter was settled forever. The fact that I remained with them under all these trials for twenty-eight years, shows that I am not a vacillating man, as they now try to think.

Why I Did Not Leave Them Sooner

I am often asked why I did not leave them sooner. Why it took me so long to find that it was an error. Then the Adventists affirm that I must have been dishonest while with them, or I am dishonest now. They say I am an apostate now, because I left them and joined the Baptists. My answer is this: If to change one's opinion and join another church makes one an apostate, then more than half their members are apostates, for they have come from other churches to join the Adventists. Again, they circulate and commend highly a book called "Fifty Years in Rome," written by a man who was many years a learned priest in the Roman church. They say that his high standing and long experience in that church makes his book invaluable. But they say that the fact that I was with them in high standing so long, and now have left them, only proves that I am a hypocrite!

Any candid man can see the inconsistency of their positions. I united with the Adventists when I was a mere boy, uneducated, with no knowledge of the Bible, of history, or of other churches. I went into it through ignorance. For years my zeal for that faith, and my unbounded confidence in its leaders, blinded me to their errors. But, as I grew older, read my Bible more, read history, met with other churches, heard sermons and read books against Adventism, became better acquainted with our leaders, with the inside workings of the church, learned more about its unfavorable origin, the many mistakes we had made, saw the fruit of it in old churches, on families and society, got hold of the early writings of Mrs. White and others; gradually I began to see that Adventism was not just what I had first supposed it to be. When I embraced it in 1859, Seventh-day Adventism was only fourteen years old, the believers were few, and it was comparatively untried. But when Adventism was twenty-five years older, ten times as large, and had fully developed its spirit and shown its fruits, when I had had the education, observation and experience of a quarter of a century, I think my judgment in the matter ought to be worth more than when I embraced it as a green boy.

Again, it was only during the last few years that I gained possession of early Adventist documents, which show how they now deny and contradict what they once taught. These are now either suppressed or kept out of sight, so that not one in a thousand of them knows or will believe that they ever existed. My doubts of the system did not come to me all at once and clearly. It was well known that for the last dozen years I was with them, I was greatly troubled over these things. Gradually, year by year, the evidence accumulated, till at last it overbalanced the doctrine, and then reluctantly and sorrowfully I had to abandon and renounce it. God pity the soul that has to go through what I did to be honest to his convictions of right.

Positions Which I Held When I Left Them

Notwithstanding it was well known to all that I frequently had serious doubts about their faith, yet, as soon as I took hold with them again, each time they immediately put me forward and set me at the most important work. Elder Butler says: "He doubtless would have been [elected to important office] had he not proved himself unreliable in so many instances. His ability would have justified it." Review and Herald Extra, Nov. 22, 1887. Suppose, now, that I had been an office-seeking man, caring more for place and position than for truth and conscience, what would I have done? I would have gone right along, pretending to be full in faith and in harmony with them. But instead of this, time and again, I went directly to their influential men, Elders White, Butler, Haskell, etc., and told them my doubts. Let candid men judge of my motives.

The day I left them I held the following positions: Was teacher of theology in their college at Battle Creek, where I had a class of nearly two hundred of their best young people; was associate editor of the Gospel Sickle; was writing the lessons for all their Sabbath Schools throughout the world; had the charge of some eighteen churches in Michigan; was member of the Executive Committee of the International Sabbath School Association; member of the Executive Committee of the Michigan State Sabbath School Association; and at the last session of the general conference was chairman of the International Sabbath School Association, and was on nine different committees, several of them the most important in the conference, as the one on distribution of laborers over all the world, the theological committee, the one on camp meetings, on a special course of study in our college, on the improvement of the ministry, etc. This shows what they thought of my ability. I had just gotten out a new pamphlet, "Critical Notes," of which they printed an edition of 10,000 after I left them. Others of my works they have revised, left my name off, and use them still. Why reprint mine after I have left them and renounced what they teach? They now say that my writings are cheap and worthless. But while I was with them they published over twenty different productions of mine, and circulated hundreds of thousands of them, translated several of them into other languages, and paid me hundreds of dollars for them. Strange that all at once I have become so imbecile, and my writings so worthless. Any one can see the animus of all this.

Elder Smith, in Replies to Canright, page 25, says I left them at a time when my withdrawal embarrassed them more than it would have done at any other time. This confesses that I was becoming more and more useful to them, and all know that I was. At the time I left I was getting higher pay than ever before, and was on friendly terms with all. All the leading men, as Butler, Haskell, Smith, etc., were my warm personal friends, ready to do all in their power to assist me. Had I desired office, or better position, all I had to do was to go right along without wavering, and positions would come to me faster than I could fill them. But if I left them, where could I go? What could I do? How even make a living? I took this all in, and it required all the courage and faith in God I could master to take the risk.

It cost me a terrible struggle and a great sacrifice, for in doing it I had to leave all my life-long friends, the cherished hopes of my youth, the whole work of my life, all the means of my support, every honorable position I held, and bring upon myself reproach, hatred and persecution. I had to begin life anew, among strangers, with untried methods, uncertain where to go or what to do. No one who has not tried it can ever begin to realize the fearful struggle it requires. It is the dread of all this which holds many with them who are yet dissatisfied where they are. I know that this is so, for many have confessed it to me, and yet remained where they were. Anyone of candor and fairness can see readily that self-interest and personal ambition would have held me with them. Yet, as soon as I did leave them, though I went out quietly and peaceably, and let them entirely alone, and even spoke favorably of them, they immediately attributed to me all sorts of evil motives, base sins, and ambitious designs. They seemed to feel it a sacred duty to blast my reputation, and destroy my influence, if possible. "Apostate" was the epithet all applied to me. I was compared to Baalam, to Kora, Dathan and Abiram, to Judas, Demas, and a whole list of evil characters. Not one honest or worthy motive was granted me. The meanest and wickedest reports were circulated as to what I had done or said - things that I would despise even to think of. Yet all were eagerly accepted and believed as undoubted truth. But I expected it, for it is the way all are treated who dare to leave them and give a reason for it.

During the twenty years now since I left them, they have had spies constantly on my track, who have watched and reported the least thing I have said or done, to torture it into evil, if possible. This they circulate to the ends of the earth, and it comes back to me in newspapers and letters. They have issued four different publications against me, and Mrs. White, in her last "revelation," has devoted three articles to myself! Yet I don't amount to anything; never did! "Sour grapes," you see. It has been widely reported that I was smitten with a terrible disease, had broken up my church, been expelled from the denomination, and more yet, concerning all which the Lord judge between us. The pastors of all the churches here, and public men of the place have had to make written statements to meet these attacks in distant states. Sometimes this has seemed hard to bear, but knowing that I was right, I have had grace and patience to keep steadily at my work, and leave the rest with God and my friends.

I am in constant receipt of letters from all parts of the country, saying that the Adventists affirm that I have asked to be taken back among them! They will report it till I die, and long after. This book shall be my answer. They are so certain that the curse of God will follow all who leave them, or that they will become infidels, or return to them, that they cannot be reconciled to have it otherwise.

A Sample Letter

"Glenwood Springs, Colo., March 29, 1889. D.M. Canright, Otsego, Mich.: My Dear Friend and Brother - If the lightning's shivering crash had torn my scalp loose from my head, I would not have been more surprised than I was today by having placed in my hands your pamphlet entitled "The Jewish Sabbath." I have read after you for years, sold your valuable works, and preached the "Third Angel's Message." Now, I wish to ask you, how do our people treat you? To my knowledge you were a great favorite, and quoted oftener than any standing near the head. Do they go back on you as hard as they did on Snook? I suppose that your great research and life-long study of the subject in hand goes for nothing with them, and that you are classed among the fallen angels. F.A.B."

Ordained a Baptist Minister

April 19, 1887, at Otsego, Mich., where I had lived for eight years, I was ordained as a minister of the Regular Baptist Church, by an exceptionally large council, composed of several of the ablest ministers of the state. The 'Otsego Union' of that date says: "Regularly appointed delegates were present from Baptist churches in Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Plainwell, Three Rivers, White Pigeon, Allegan, Battle Creek, Paw Paw, Hickory Corners, Prairieville and Otsego. Rev. A.E. Mather, D.D., of Battle Creek, was elected moderator of the council, and Rev. T.M. Shanafelt, D.D., of Three Rivers, secretary. The order of exercises was as follows: Reading of the Scriptures, by Rev. H.A. Rose, of Kalamazoo; prayer, by Rev. D. Mulhern, D.D., of Grand Rapids; ordination sermon, by Rev. Kendall Brooks, D.D., President of Kalamazoo College; prayer of ordination, by Rev. M.W. Haynes, of Kalamazoo, with laying on of hands by Rev. H.B. Taft, of White Pigeon, Rev. E.A. Gay, of Allegan, and Rev. H.A. Rose, of Kalamazoo; hand of fellowship, by Rev. T.F. Babcock, of Prairieville; charge to the pastor, by Rev. L.B. Fish, of Paw Paw; charge to the church, by Rev. I. Butterfield, of Grand Rapids.

"Rev. D.M. Canright has thus been fully recognized by a large and representative council as a regular Baptist minister, and pastor of the Baptist church in Otsego."

I have never regretted leaving the Adventists, nor for one moment had the slightest desire to return.
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Alleen God is goed!
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Chapter III - Adventism: A Yoke of Bondage (Back to Top)
Largely, people are drawn into the Seventh-day doctrine through fear, fear of being damned if they refuse. Once in, they try to feel happy, but very few really are. With a large class, the more intelligent ones, there are so many doubts and fears, such a sensible want of something which they do not find, that they are unhappy. Many of their ministers have gone through the same trials that I have, and scores have left them, as I did, while others have fixed it up and remained with them. Elder White himself had doubts. Mrs. White says of him: "He should make it a rule not to talk unbelief or discouragement." "My husband has cherished this darkness so long by living over the unhappy past, that he has but little power to control his mind when dwelling upon these things." Testimonies, Vol. III, pages 96, 97. Mrs. White herself, as we might expect, is troubled with infidelity. She says: "In the night I have awakened my husband, saying, 'I am afraid that I shall become an infidel.'" Testimonies, Vol. I, page 597. Nearly all their prominent ministers had their time of trial, the same as I did, when they ceased preaching and went at other work, as we have seen.

I will quote a few words from letters received: "I have had many blue times in my experience because of these doubts.... Once I decided that I must follow the convictions of my own judgment in these things; but when the time came the pressure was so strong that I tried to convince myself that I was wrong.... The facts are, I am just miserable.... It seems like a terrible thing to take a course that will cause all the cherished friends of this world to look upon you as one fallen from grace; and here I am, bound with these chains." Another writes: "It seems to me that the views held by Seventh-day Adventists are so burdensome that they will crush me. They are a yoke of bondage which I cannot stand up under. Still I do want to be right." Another minister, D.H. Lamson, writes: "How am I straightened, while the fetters are being forged for most unwilling limbs!... What distress we are in as a people! how miserable! and is there no relief?" And still another talented minister, W.C. Gage, writes me: "Our ministers, and people as well, are growing to be a denomination of hypocrites, by a slavish fear of expressing an honest belief.... I am sick and disheartened.... The basis of confidence is gone, and I shall only await the outcome of the matter." Still another, Uriah Smith, writes: "There is a fear, on the part of the powers that be, of free thought and free discussion. So far as this is the case, it is a shame and disgrace to us." And yet these brethren patch up the matter some way, and go right on as though nothing were wrong. I know how to pity them, for I myself have passed through precisely the same experience. And another writes: "I wish I had never heard the Advent doctrine preached. Previous to that, I know that I did enjoy the blessing of God. I was not troubled about doctrine.... I think I then had some influence for good over others, but I fear my change of faith had a bad influence over my children." Strange to say, these are the very men who now denounce me the worst because I had the courage of my convictions, while they haven't.

These are fair samples of how scores among them feel, from men in leading positions, to the humblest in the church. Largely they keep it to themselves, but occasionally it will out. Many of them almost get out, and then fall back, to linger along in bondage all the rest of their lives. "But if these persons are in such bondage, why not break loose, and be free? Who would harm them? Be it remembered that there is a bondage worse than African slavery - the bondage of religious tyranny and superstition. I was held there for years, and know its power.

Milton F. Gowell, Chicago, gives so true a picture of Advent experience, that I quote him in a letter to me. I was often at his father's house, in Portland, Me.; when he was a boy. He says: "My recollections of those days are full of the terrors of law, prophetic charts, Mrs. White's visions, the Sabbath, Sabbath, Sabbath, health reform, bloomer dresses, and a great zeal for being industrious on Sunday, and little or nothing of Christ. All the DOING was indelibly impressed on my mind as a boy, but the BELIEVING on Christ for salvation, and RESTING in his finished work, I have no remembrance of whatever. How many there are that join the Seventh-day Adventists utterly unsaved, knowing nothing of the grace of God, hearing always barely the law. I joined them at the age of fourteen, under conviction, guilty before God, but unsaved, though I was baptized and received into the church as a SABBATH KEEPER. I received no peace, no rest, till I entered into rest by believing about three and a half years ago; saved from the borderland of infidelity." This is just the impression which all the children of that people are receiving - cold legalism. While this young man was finally saved from infidelity, hundreds of them are not, as I well know.

Prominent Persons Who Have Left the Adventists

It is nothing new for men to leave a party, good or bad; but so large a number of prominent persons have left the Adventists as to excite surprise. It is clear that there must be something wrong in the system itself. First, according to the best of my judgment, from one-third to one-half of all who begin the observance of the Sabbath, sooner or later abandon it.

At different times large numbers have left them, mostly on account of Mrs. White's visions. We will name a few of the ministers who have departed from them: J.B. Cook and T.M. Preble, the pioneers who started the movement, both renounced it; O.R.L. Crozier, Ann Arbor, Mich., has renounced the Sabbath; Elder B.F. Snook, the leading man in Iowa, is now a Universalist; Elder W.H. Brinkerhoof, of Iowa, has renounced the faith; Elder Moses Hull, the ablest speaker they ever had, is now a Spiritualist, and Elder Shortridge, a minister of much talent, has also gone the same way; Elders Hall and Stephenson, at the time very prominent in the work, went to the Age-to-Come party; C.B. Reynolds, of New York, has become a noted blasphemer; Elder H.C. Blanchard, Avilla, Mo., renounced the doctrine; ditto T.J. Butler, of the same state; Elder L.L. Howard, Maine, H.F. Haynes, New Hampshire, left them; Nathan Fuller, Wellsville, N.Y., became a libertine; M.B. Czechowski went to Europe and died in disgrace; H.F. Case, Elder Cranmer and Philip Strong, all of Michigan, left them.

Elder J.B. Frisbie, their pioneer and most efficient preacher for years in Michigan, finally left them. Dr. Lee, of Minnesota, who inaugurated the work among the Swedes, now opposes them. Elder A.B. Oyen, missionary to Europe, and editor of their Danish paper, has renounced the faith. Living right at the head of the work for many years, he had the best of opportunity to know all about its workings. Elder D.B. Oviatt, for many years president of the Pennsylvania Conference, renounced the faith, and is now a Baptist minister.

So Elder Rosquist and Elder Whitelaw, both of Minnesota, have recently left them and gone to the Baptists. Other ministers of the West have also gone over to the Baptists. C.A. Russell, Otsego, Mich., an excellent man, once preached that doctrine with me, but is now a Methodist. H.E. Carver, H.C. Blanchard, J.W. Cassady, A.C. Long, Jacob Brinkerhoof, J.C. Day, H.W. Ball, Goodenough, Bunch, and others, once members of that church, have written against it. Elder Hiram Edson and Elder S.W. Rhodes, noted pioneers in the work, died confirmed cranks, and a trial to the church. The sad example of their leading ministers who have been guilty of adultery, proves that their church has nothing to boast of over other churches in the purity of its ministers and members.

Their College Professors

They have been very unfortunate in their college professors. Professor S.S. Brownsburger, the first Principal of their College at Battle Creek, Mich., which position he occupied for years, and then filled the same position in their college in California, is now wholly disconnected from the work. Elder W.H. Littlejohn, who next stood at the head of the college, was expelled from the church and fell into doubts. Next came Professor A. McLearn as head of the college. He has renounced the faith, and now opposes them strongly. Professor Vesey, a learned teacher in that college, has forsaken the faith. Professor C.C. Ramsy, born in that faith, was professor of mathematics in the Battle Creek college for three years; then filled the same place for three years in their college in California; then was called to take charge of their academy in the East, which he did for three years more. He was editor of their educational journal, prominent in Sabbath School work, and many other ways. He has renounced that faith, but remains an earnest Christian. Others of their teachers of lesser note have also left them. What is the cause of such results? There must be something wrong.

Their Physicians

They have been equally unfortunate with their physicians in their sanitarium at Battle Creek. Dr. H.S. Ley, an excellent man, was the first physician-in- chief. He left the institution in a trial, and was out of work for years. Dr. Wm. Russell, a talented doctor, came next. What he there saw of Adventism made him an infidel, and he was dismissed. Next, I believe, came Dr. M.G. Kellogg. The treatment he received drove him into scepticism for years. Then came Dr. Sprague and Dr. Farfield, both of whom renounced the faith, and, I believe, are sceptical now. Mrs. Lamson and Miss Fellows, both matrons of the sanitarium, lost faith in the doctrine. Dr. Smith, brought up in the faith, renounced it. Here again we see that education unfits men for Adventism. I am not acquainted with another church which has lost so large a proportion of its most prominent men. Every year, nearly, so far, more or less have gone away from them, till they have lost more talent than now remains with them.

It Leads to Infidelity

A strong argument with Adventists is, that most of those who leave them become infidels, as all know. But, after long watching, I became satisfied that it is Adventism which has made them infidels. Look at Romanism. Wherever it has had sway a while, it filled the land with infidels. Go among the Mormons at Salt Lake. Large numbers of their children are becoming infidels. The natural rebound from fanaticism and superstition is into infidelity and scepticism. Right here in Otsego we have several infidels, the grown-up children of Adventists. I know them and meet them all over the country, and their numbers are increasing. I feel sure that the ripe fruit of Adventism in the years to come will be a generation of doubters.

Their Church Backsliding

Seventh-day Adventists claim to be raised up of God, to reform the church of to-day. They claim to be purer, more spiritual, and on a higher plane than other Christians. All other churches are Babylon and apostates, while they are the chosen saints. But now, after their church has had only fifty years trial, and hence is still small and young, and so ought to be better than older and larger churches, I can quote confessions from their own writers, proving that they are as wordly, backslidden and corrupt as they make out other churches to be. I will give a few. Elder G.I. Butler, in the Advent Review, May 10, 1887, says: "A terrible stupor like that which enveloped the disciples in the Saviour's agony in the garden, seems to hang over the mass of our people." Mrs. White, in Testimonies, Vol. I, says: "The Spirit of the Lord has been dying away from the church," page 113; "The churches have nearly lost their spirituality and faith," page 119; "I saw the dreadful fact that God's people were conformed to the world with no distinction, except in name," page 133; "Covetousness, selfishness, love of money, and love of the world, are all through the ranks of Sabbath-keepers," page 140; "Vital godliness is lacking," page 153; "There is but little love for one another. A selfish spirit is manifest. Discouragement has come upon the church," page 166; "Spirituality and devotion are rare," page 469. Many of them are not even honest. She says: "As I saw the spirit of defrauding, of over-reaching, of meanness, even among some professed Sabbath-keepers, I cried out in anguish," page 480; "There is but little praying. In fact, prayer is almost obsolete," page 566; "Not one in twenty of those who have a good standing with Seventh-day Adventists, is living out the self-sacrificing principles of the word of God." page 632. Of the Battle Creek church she says: "I can select family after family of children in this house, every one of whom is as corrupt as hell itself." "Right here in this church corruption is teeming on every hand," Vol. II, pages 360, 361; "Sin and vice exist in Sabbath-keeping families," page 391; "We have a dwarfed and defective ministry," Vol. IV, page 441. In Testimony, No. 33, just published, Mrs. White says: "There is a deplorable lack of spirituality among our people.... There has been a spirit of self- sufficiency, and a disposition to strive for position and supremacy. I have seen that self-glorification was becoming common among Seventh-day Adventists," pages 255, 256. Thus as they grow older, the have to confess to all the weaknesses and short- comings which they have so eagerly charged against other churches.

I could quote whole pages of such confessions as these from Mrs. White and their leading men. They are compelled to say it. It is common in their camp- meetings to see half their members forward as backsliders. Their preaching is largely scolding their members for their coldness. In fact, the thing is a practical failure in whatever way you look at it. Are they any better, any more spiritual, than the regular churches which they denounce so? No, as the above shows. After being well acquainted with both, I say confidently that there is as much devotion and spirituality among the Evangelical churches as among Adventists.

If, then, these things in the other churches prove that they are Babylon, they prove the same of the Advent church, too. (See Appendix A)

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Chapter IV - Origin, History and Failures of Adventism (Back to Top)
Every little while, from the days of Christ till now, individuals, and often large sects, have arisen, proclaiming the Second Advent at hand and themselves the God-appointed messengers to warn the world. Right on this point Jesus warned his church: "Take heed that no man deceive you.... The end is not yet." Matt. 24:4-6. Yet right away it was said that Jesus would come before John should die. John 21:23. The Thessalonians had to be corrected by Paul for expecting the Advent immediately at hand. II Thess. 2:1-8.

In the middle of the second century arose the Montanists. The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia says: "Ecstatic visions announcing the approach of the Second Advent of Christ... were set forth as divine revelation." Art. 'Montanism.' Like Seventh-day Adventists, they adopted a severe discipline - condemned the wearing of ornaments, intercourse with the world, etc. They created a great sensation, obtained a numerous following, and flourished for a century or more.

Tenth Century Adventism

The following is from the "History of the Christian Church," by M. Reuter, D.D., Century 10, Chapter 2, pages 202, 203: "Among the numerous opinions, however, which disgraced the Latin church and produced from time to time such violent agitations, none occasioned such universal panic, nor such dreadful impressions of terror or dismay, as a notion that prevailed during this [tenth] century of the immediate approach of the day of judgment." "Public and private buildings were suffered to decay, and were even pulled down, from an opinion that they were no longer of any use, since the dissolution of all things was at hand."

The Fifth-Monarchy men of England, about 1660, "believed that the time was near at hand when, to the four great monarchies of Daniel's prophetic vision, was to succeed the fifth, which was to break in pieces all others, and to 'stand forever.'" Johnson's Encyclopedia, article Fifth-Monarchy Men. They undertook to set up the kingdom by overturning the English government.

The Irvingites of England "declare the speedy coming of Christ;" have "prophets," "revelations," "tongues," "gifts," etc. They have gathered large congregations and are spreading over the world.

Swedenborg, Ann Lee, Joanna Southcott, Joe Smith, etc., all made the speedy advent of Christ the ground-work of their systems, as is well known. Hence, movements of this kind are nothing new.

Seventh-day Adventism originated in the well-known movement of William Miller, who set the time for the end of the world in 1843-44. They claim now that Mr. Miller's move was right, and in the providence of God. They claim to be simply carrying on the same work which he began. In all their books and sermons they point to 1844 as their origin, and endorse the work of the Millerites in 1843 and 1844. The following from Mrs. White will settle the point: "I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that his hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures." Early Writings, page 64. God helped them make the mistake! "I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843." Spiritual Gifts, Vol. I., page 133. So God wanted them to set that time! "I saw that they were correct in their reckoning of the prophetic periods; prophetic time closed in 1844." Page 107. Again: "The Advent movement of 1840-44 was a glorious manifestation of the power of God." Great Controversy, Vol. IV., page 429. Elder White says: "We hold that the great movement upon the Second Advent question, which commenced with the writings and public lectures of William Miller, has been, in its leading features, in fulfillment of prophecy. Consistently with this view, we also hold that in the providence of God, Mr. Miller was raised up to do a specific work." Life of Miller, page 6. So it will be seen that Seventh-day Adventists still believe in and defend the Millerite movements of 1843 and 1844. Indeed, they claim that all other churches who did not accept and endorse Miller's work were rejected of God on this account. Thus Mrs. White: "As the churches refused to receive the first angel's message [Miller's work], they rejected the light from heaven and fell from the favor of God." Early Writings, page 101.

Here, then, we have the origin of Seventh-day Adventism, the fountain from which it flowed. As a stream will be like its fountain, let us examine it. Elder and Mrs. White, Elder Bates, Andrews, Rhodes, Holt, Edson, and all the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church were in the movement of Miller, and helped in setting and preaching the time in 1843, 1844, and carried the Advent work right on afterwards.

The work of Mr. Miller is so well known, that I need but refer to the facts about it. William Miller was born at Pittsfield, Mass., 1782, but he was reared at Low Hampton, N.Y. He was a farmer, with only the poor advantages of a country school. He united with the Baptist church. About 1831 he claimed that he had discovered by the prophecies the exact time, the very year, and, finally, the very day when Christ would appear and the end of the world would come. He succeeded in converting perhaps fifty thousand people to his views. The first date fixed was 1843. It failed. Then he fixed a day in October, 1844, and that failed. Many other times have since been fixed by Mr. Miller's followers, and all have failed. Over fifty years have come and gone, and the end has not come yet.

What was the one great burden of Miller, the one point on which he differed from the Evangelical churches? All these churches believed in the personal Second Advent of Christ just as strongly as Miller did. They loved Jesus and preached the Second Advent, even teaching that it was near at hand. But the Millerites said they knew the TIME when it was to be, and that time was 1843- 4. They staked all upon this. The issue was plain and definite. All who did not endorse their SET TIME were "opposers," "enemies," "in the dark," "evil servants," rejected of God and lost, just because they would not believe in setting a time for the end. Here are Miller's words: "I believe the time can be known by all who desire to understand.... Between March 21, 1840, and March 21, 1844, according to the Jewish mode of computation of time, Christ will come." Life of Miller, page 172. Jesus says: "Ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. But the Millerites thought they knew better than Jesus Christ did. So they condemned all who did not agree with them. Here is a mild sample of what they said and the spirit that possessed them: "This is God's truth; it is as true as the Bible." "There is no possibility of a mistake in this time." "Those who reject this light will be lost." "Those who do not accept this argument are backsliders," etc. History of Advent Message, page 596. And this is the spirit that has followed them ever since - a harsh, denunciatory spirit against all who did not agree with their figures, interpretations and theories.

But their set times came and passed without the least regard to their figures and facts, proofs and demonstrations, prayers and predictions. Remorseless old Time, the true tester of every theory, marched right on and demolished them all. This demonstrated the folly and error of the Adventists. Miller's prediction was a wretched abortion. He preached and propagated a falsehood. He preached that the world would end in 1843, and it didn't. He set 1844 for it to come, and it didn't. If ever a religious movement on earth was demonstrated to be a humbug and a failure, it was Millerism. But if Millerism was a failure, then Seventh-day Adventism is also, for that was the fountain from which this has flowed; that was the foundation on which this is built. Deut. 18:22: "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken." This, surely, is a simple and fair test. By this rule the Lord was not in Miller's move.

"But were not the Adventists in 1843-4 very confident that they were right?" Confident is no name for it. They were SURE that they were right, they KNEW they were right, for they proved it all by the Bible, every word of it, positively. The Bible said so; to deny it was to deny the Bible. But it failed all the same. It is just so with Seventh-day Adventists now. They are the most positive people in the world, though they have made scores of terrible blunders.

That no one will know the time of the second advent is as plainly taught as words can teach. Read the following: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only;" "Watch, therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come;" "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh;" "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." Matt. 24:36,42,44; 25:13. "Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "It is not for you to know the time or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Acts 1:7. Jesus said, "Ye know not when the time is;" Miller said, "We know when the time is." Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons;" Miller said, "We know all about them." Jesus said, "No man knows the day;" Miller said, "We know the exact day." Which was right? The disappointments of the Adventists, time and again, during the past fifty years, in setting the date for the end of the world have clearly demonstrated their folly. The whole Advent move was conceived in error, born in a mistake, has grown up in folly, and must die in disgrace. "But were not the Millerites honest?" There is no doubt of it, but that proves nothing as to their correctness.

The Fruit of Millerism

"By their fruits ye shall know them." Millerism, for about four years, in a few states, created a great excitement. Churches were divided and broken up, pastors left their flocks to "lecture" on "time," while argument and strife were the order of the day. As the time set drew near, in thousands of cases, the Adventists not only left their work and their business, but gave away their property. Crops were left ungathered, goods were distributed freely, so that many who had been well to do were left penniless. After the time had passed, these were destitute and their families suffered. Many had to be arrested and put under guardianship, to protect their families. Then the wildest fanaticism broke out here and there, which brought disgrace upon the very name of religion. Many said the Lord had come, probation was ended, it was sin to work, all property must be held in common, all the churches were apostate, Babylon, etc. Some Adventists had spiritual wives, some went to the Shakers, many went back into the churches, some into despair, and hundreds into doubt and infidelity - just what might have been expected. The glorious doctrine of the Second Advent was covered with shame, Satan rejoiced, while the cause of Christ was greatly injured. For proof of these facts, I refer to the testimony of thousands now living, and to the published works of the Adventists themselves. Thus Elder U. Smith is compelled to say: "The Advent Body were a unit [in 1844] and their testimony shook the world. Suddenly their power was broken, their strength paralyzed. They passed the point of their expectation, and realized not their hope. That a mistake had been made somewhere, none could deny. From that point the history of a majority of that once happy, united people has been marked by discord, division, confusion, speculation, new mistakes, fresh disappointments, disintegration and apostasy." The Sanctuary, pages 13, 14.

Paul said, "God is not the author of confusion." I Cor. 14:33. Then surely he was not the author of Adventism, for the confusion it produced is unparalleled in religious history. Ten souls were ruined by it where one was saved. Immediately after 1844 they split up into numerous parties, each contradicting and condemning all the rest. Instead of renouncing the whole thing, as sane men ought to have done, each one set himself to find some "explanation" of their mistake. Hardly any two agreed, while each one was sure he had the true explanation. Their utter confusion is well illustrated by the following anecdote told by Mr. Miller himself: The first person in his own parish who fully embraced his views was an old woman, an humble Christian. Mr. Miller sent her his papers when he had read them. One week he received sixteen different sheets, all purporting to be Advent publications, but the most of them advocating contradictory sentiments. He sent them to the old woman. Soon she sent for him, and on his arrival began: "Have you read all these papers?" "I have looked them over." "But are they all Advent papers?" "They profess to be." "Well, then," said she, "I am no longer an Adventist. I shall take the old Bible and stick to that." "But," said Mr. Miller, "we have no confidence in one-half there is advocated in these papers." "We?" exclaimed the old lady, "who is WE?" "Why," replied Mr. Miller, "WE are those who do not fellowship these things." "Well, but I want to know who WE is." "Why, all of us who stand on the old ground." "But that ain't telling me who WE is. I want to know who WE is." "Well," said Mr. Miller, in relating the story, "I was confounded, and was unable to give her any information who WE were." History of Second Advent Message, pages 414, 415.

And so it has continued unto this day. What do Adventists believe? Go ask what language was spoken by the people after the Lord confused their tongues at Babel. Adventism is a second Bable[sp]. But Seventh-day Adventists say "We are united; we believe alike." Partly true, but they are only one branch of this Advent Babel. Such a brood of errors and heresies as has resulted from Adventism, cannot be found in the history of the church before. Time- setting, visions, miracles, fanatics, false prophets, sleep of the dead, annihilation of the wicked, non-resurrection of the wicked, future probation, restoration, community of goods, denial of the divinity of Christ, no devil, no baptism, no organization, etc., etc. Gracious! And these are the people sent with a "message" to warn the church! They had better go back and learn and agree on what their "message" is, before they run to deliver it.

The other Adventists have set the time for the end of the world in 1843, 1844, 1847, 1850, 1852, 1854, 1855, 1863, 1866, 1867, 1868, 1877, and so on, till one is sick of counting. Learning nothing from the past, each time they are quite as confident as before.

This fanatical work has brought disgrace upon the doctrine of the Second Advent, so that it is not dwelt upon as much as formerly in other churches. The study of the prophecies has been brought into disrepute by the unwise course of the Adventists. No thoughtful man can fail to see this.

Seventh-day Adventists and Time-Setting

It is the one constant boast of the Seventh-day Adventists that THEY never set time; THEY don't believe in it. But they deceive themselves and deceive others when they say so. Elder White, their leader, engaged in preaching three different set times for the Lord to come, viz., 1843, 1844, 1845. here are his own statements on this: "I found myself happy in the faith that Christ would come about the year 1843." Life Incidents, page 72. Then he tells how he preached it. Of 1844, he says: "I stated my conviction that Christ would come on the tenth day of the seventh Jewish month of that year [1844]." Pages 166, 167. "It is well known that many were expecting the Lord to come at the seventh month, 1845. That Christ would then come we firmly believed. A few days before the time passed, I was at Fairhaven and Dartmouth, Mass., with a message on this point of time." 'A Word to the Little Flock,' by James White, page 22. So their leader was a time-setter. Mrs. White, their prophetess, was in the time-setting of 1843 and 1844. She herself says: "We were firm in the belief that the preaching of definite times was of God." Testimonies, Vol. 1, page 56. Of the first date she says: "With carefulness and trembling we approached the time when our Saviour was expected to appear." Then she tells her disappointment. Testimonies, Vol. 1, page 48. Again: "Our hopes now centered on the coming of the Lord in 1844." Page 53. She was a time- setter. Elders Bates, Andrews, Rhodes, and all the first crop of Seventh-day Adventists were in the time-setting of 1843, 1844. They still endorse Miller's time-setting of 1843 and 1844 as right and approved of God. How much truth, then, is there in their assertions that they have never set time? But they say, "WE did not keep the Seventh-day when WE set time; therefore WE never set time!" That is too thin. The thief says, "I did not wear this coat when I stole the sheep, therefore I never stole him!" They say that they have given the THREE messages. Well, the first message was in 1844 when they set time. Are they the same people, or are they not?

Again they endorse Mr. Miller's work as of God. But Miller is responsible for all the time-setting done by the Adventists since his time, because they are the legitimate outgrowth of his work. He began setting time. He did it the second time. He taught them how to do it. He fathered the idea. He inculcated it in all his followers. They then simply took up and carried on what he had begun. Seventh-day Adventists claim to be the original Adventists, and endorse Miller's work. In doing this they endorse time- setting, and should justly bear all the odium of that fanatical business.

But don't Seventh-day Adventists rise to explain why they were disappointed in 1843, and again in 1844, and for forty years since? O, yes; but we naturally become a little suspicious of the man who is compelled to be constantly explaining his conduct. Straight works needs no explanation. They say the Lord caused them to be disappointed in 1843, on purpose to test their faith, that was all! In 1844 they made just one little mistake, that was all! They then taught that the earth was the sanctuary. Come to find out, the sanctuary us up in heaven, and Jesus did really come, in a certain sense, that very year! So they were right, after all. Don't you see? Clear as day. Now they have the whole matter removed from the troublesome facts of earth, where we can test them, to the beautiful theories of heaven, where no one can go to report on facts which might spoil their theories. Now they can speculate and argue in safety. But sober, thinking men see through all this. It is merely a make-shift to get out of a difficulty.

Miller's Confession - He Opposes Seventh-day Adventism

All the other Adventists long ago renounced the 1843-4 time-setting as an error. Thus: "The majority of Adventists took the position that the TIME was an error of human judgment." History of the Second Advent Message, page 383. Hear Mr. Miller himself: "On the passing of my published time, I frankly acknowledged my disappointment.... We expected the personal coming of Christ at that time; and now to contend that we were not mistaken, is dishonest. We should never be ashamed frankly to confess our errors. I have no confidence in any of the new theories that grew out of that movement, namely, that Christ then came as the Bridegroom, that the door of mercy was closed, that there is no salvation for sinners, that the seventh trumpet sounded, OR THAT IT WAS A FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY IN ANY SENSE." History of the Advent Message, pages 410, 412.

From this we see: 1. That Miller, the founder and leader of that move, owned that it was an error. 2. He repudiated the idea that it was a fulfillment of prophecy in any sense. 3. He especially points out the Seventh-day Advent position as utterly wrong. He knew all about their arguments of the three messages, the sanctuary, the Sabbath, etc., and yet he not only rejected them, but earnestly warned his people against them, so that very few of the original Adventists ever accepted them. Hear Mrs. White herself on this point: "I saw leading men watching William Miller, fearing lest he should embrace the third angel's message and the commandments of God. As he would lean towards the light from heaven, these men would lay some plan to draw his mind away. I saw a human influence exerted to keep his mind in darkness, and to retain his influence among them. At length WILLIAM MILLER RAISED HIS VOICE AGAINST THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN." Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, page 167.

Thus the father and founder of Adventism condemned and opposed the position which Seventh-day Adventists took with regard to his own work. He had sense enough to see, and honesty enough to confess, that it was a mistake. But they will not have it so. They know better than he himself. They will have it that it was a wonderful fulfillment of Rev. 14:6,7. Miller denies it. Thus it will be seen that Seventh-day Adventists give an interpretation to Miller's work which he himself condemned. Not a leading man in Miller's work ever embraced the views of the Seventh-day Adventists, but have always opposed them as fanatical and as a side issue. None of the leaders of Seventh-day Adventism, such as White, Andrews, Bates, Rhodes, etc., were ever of any note in Miller's work, though they were all in it; yet afterwards they claimed to be the only ones who had the right view of it. All the rest were "in the dark," "foolish virgins," "apostates," etc. How modest!

Mistakes of Adventists

A people who have made as many mistakes as Adventists have, ought to be very modest in their claims, and ought to see that they have been led by men and not by the Lord. 1. They set the time for the end of the world in 1843, and failed. 2. They set it again in 1844 and failed. 3. Elder White, the leader of the Seventh-day Adventists, set 1845 for the end, and failed again. 4. They held in 1844 that the earth was the sanctuary, another mistake, as they admit now. 5. They all held for some time after 1844 that probation for sinners was ended - a fearful mistake. See chapter 8 of this book. 6. For ten years Seventh-day Adventists began the Sabbath at 6 P.M., instead of at sunset as now. Thus they broke the Sabbath every week! 7. They kept their children out of school for years, because time was so short they would need no education. Those children now have grand-children! 8. They gave away their goods in 1844, because they would not need them after that! 9. They would not vote, for that was like the fallen churches. Now they vote freely. 10. They held that it was wrong to take a church name, for that was Babylon. Now they have a name. 11. Church organization was wrong, for that was like Babylon. Now they organize. 12. For years they said it was denying their faith to set out trees, for they would never grow to bear fruit. 13. Led by a revelation from Mrs. White, the sisters put on short dress with pants. None of them wear it now. 14. For thirty years they would not take up any collection on the Sabbath. Now they do it every week. 15. For fifty years they have been expecting the end of the world to come inside of five years, and it has not come yet. 16. They said Jesus would come to the earth in 1844. Now they say that was a mistake; he came to judgment in the sanctuary above. Thus: "The Adventists of 1844...thought the bridegroom would come; and THEN HE DID COME - not to this earth, as they incorrectly supposed, but to the MARRIAGE." "They simply mistook the KIND of coming referred to." U. Smith, in Parable of the Ten Virgins, page 13,14. He owns that: 1. They got the time wrong in 1843. 2. The place wrong. 3. The event wrong. Now let him add, 4. The whole thing wrong, and he will be right! 17. Then they said the door was shut, Matt. 25:10; now they say that this was wrong; it is open yet. Thus: "There can be no other place for the shut door but at the autumn of 1844." Elder White, in Present Truth, May 1850. "The door is still open, and other guests may come." U. Smith, in Parable of the Ten Virgins, page 17, February, 1889. These are the people who always KNOW they are just right! 18. They once adopted a rigid vegetarian diet - not meat, no butter, only two meals per day, etc., but it was a failure. It killed many and ruined more, till they had to modify it and live like other people.

These are only samples out of numerous mistakes the Adventists have made; and this they have done with an inspired prophetess right at their head for forty-four years! These simple, undeniable facts alone should be enough to open the eyes of all to see that the Lord has not led them in their work.
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Chapter V - My Objections to the Seventh-day Adventist System (Back to Top)
1. It was born in a mistake. The origin of Adventism was in the Millerite time-setting of 1843 and 1844, which all know was a mistake.

2. That work produced great fanaticism, and wrought disaster to thousands of souls.

3. Out of that movement has grown a whole brood of errors, as they themselves will admit.

4. Seventh-day Adventism is a system of popery - one-man power. From the first, Elder White took this position, and molded the whole system to fit it. He would and did rule and dictate in everything in all the field. He would make it hot for one who dared to start anything which he had not bossed. He was head and president of everything. So now a few run everything. Their word is law. It is contrary to the Gospel, and has resulted in the mental degradation of the mass of that people. A few think for all.

5. The mere word of Mrs. White, an uneducated woman, is accepted as the voice of God to them dictating in everything. "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them." Isa. 3:12.

6. From the start, Elder and Mrs. White would take up publicly the faults, real or imaginary, of any one and every one, ministers, editors and all, and expose them before the whole congregation. If any objected, they were "rebels." All this was then printed in her "Testimonies" as inspired, and circulated for all to read. This has begotten in all a habit of criticising and fault-finding, which is reprehensible to the last degree. Any one might have foreseen that it would result in this. Mrs. White herself now says: "There has been a picking at straws. And when there were no real difficulties in the church, trials have been manufactured." Testimonies, Vol. 1, page 144. "Love for one another had disappeared, and a fault-finding, accusing spirit has prevailed. It has been considered a virtue to hunt up everything about one another that looked wrong, and make it appear fully as bad as it really was." Page 164. Mrs. White herself has set the example, and she is largely followed, till they are a denomination of fault-finders.

7. It is a fundamental doctrine with them that all the other churches are apostate and corrupt. Hence they are eagerly on the watch for every evil thing they can pick up against them. This is poor business, and it begets in themselves a hard, unlovely spirit.

8. They are constantly on the watch for all the evidence they can gather, showing that the world is rapidly growing worse. This again has a bad effect on themselves, tending to make them sour and gloomy.

9. Their ministers are mere lecturers, going from place to place, staying only a few weeks at a time, and repeating the same old sermons over and over. As a consequence they became narrow and small and dry. Their preaching is almost wholly doctrinal and argumentative. This makes them hard and combative, instead of tender and charitable.

10. Their churches are very small, generally numbering from fifteen to forty. They have no pastors, and seldom any preaching. Their meetings are held on Saturday, when others are at work, hence not a soul attends except themselves. So their meetings are small and dull and tiresome, especially to youth and children. Never mingling with other churches, they soon fall into a rut and become very dry. The great mass of them are uncultured, and their local leaders are farmers or mechanics. The decorum seen in other churches is generally wanting in theirs. Their children are noisy, and often the members too. This is not good.

11. Their theory compels them to be narrow and uncharitable. They cannot work at all with other Christians in anything. This is another bad feature of that system. They condemn all Christian workers who do not follow them. See how Jesus rebuked that narrow, bigoted spirit: "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not, for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me; for he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40.

12. In a community they have no influence whatever over the irreligious. Not one of them attends their meetings; not a child outside of their own families attends their Sabbath schools. Other churches, by their public meetings, sermons and schools on Sundays, have a mighty influence for good over the unconverted.

13. Their work is largely proselyting. Truly, "they compass sea and land to make one proselyte." They will work just as hard to get a good old Christian out of another church as they will to convert a sinner. They tear down more than they build up.

14. They count all lost who reject their "message." Their missions of which they boast so much are the dread of all other missionaries, as they work as hard to proselyte members from churches as they do to convert raw heathens or sinners. Thus, of their "mission" in London, Elder Haskell says: "Thirteen have taken their stand on the Sabbath.... These have come principally from the Church of England." Review, April 10, 1888. Yes, their converts are always "principally" from other churches. I became sick of such work.

15. By their arguments they confuse the minds of many, so that they know not what to believe. They set them against other churches, and so they drift away from all and are entirely lost. Adventists have done a large amount of this work, and their influence in that line is fearful.

16. Many of their children grow up to keep neither Saturday nor Sunday, nor to attend any church, and hence they become irreligious.

17. Sunday-breakers who hunt, fish, sport or work that day, are encouraged in it by the arguments and examples of the Adventists. This certainly is evil. A community where Sabbatarians live has no quiet rest-day at all.

18. The power of God does not attend the Advent work as it should, if it is His special work. During my long experience with them, I was impressed with the fact that, as a rule, the work was exceedingly dry and powerless. This disheartened me greatly. I saw that it was so with all their ministers, from large to small. Their year book for 1888 shows that they did not average one convert to each minister!

19. In fields where they have been the longest and are best known, they have the least success. As soon as it is well understood what it really is, they can do nothing.

20. The apostles, the reformers, and others whom God has sent, have built up large societies, and wielded a great influence for good in society. But the Adventists never do. They have no influence for good on society. This feature of the work often troubled me. Notice how the heretical and fanatical sects generally withdraw themselves from community, and build up a little exclusive society by themselves. See the Shakers, the Mormons, the Oneida Community, the followers of Mrs. Southcott, etc. Seventh-day Adventists become a little exclusive party in any community where they are. They go by themselves, and take part in almost nothing which interests others. Take my own town as an example. They have had a church here for thirty years, numbering from fifty to seventy-five. They take no part nor interest in any social, literary, moral, sanitary, temperance or religious work outside of their own. They are never thought of as helpers in any such necessary and noble work. They never attend a prayer meeting, a revival effort, or a Sabbath School except their own. The Young Men's Christian Association, which is wholly unsectarian, is doing a noble work to save the young men of the place. Not one Adventist attends or takes interest in it. On the contrary, the Adventist store is open for trade, and thus becomes a resort for idlers and Sunday breakers. In whatever way considered, their influence is detrimental to the best interests of religion and good society.

How different it was with the followers of the true reformers, Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc. They stood with the people, worked for them, and made society generally better.

The moment a person becomes a thoroughly converted Seventh-day Adventist, he is spoiled for any further usefulness in society. This is their record everywhere, as all will testify who know them. To convert men to their doctrine is the all-absorbing passion of their lives, leaving them neither interest, time nor means for anything else.

21. I came to see that the great burden of Adventists was about merely speculative theories concerning which they cannot KNOW positively that they are correct after all. Such are their theories about the sleep of the dead, destruction of the wicked, the sanctuary in heaven, the time when Jesus will come, their interpretation of the image beast of Rev. 13:11-18, the mark of the beast, etc. Do they KNOW that they are right about these? No, they think they are, and others equally honest, pious and intelligent, think differently. I came to feel that it was foolish for me to spend my life over what after all I did not know was really so. But we do know that it is right to evangelize the heathen and the vicious of our cities, to save the drunken and fallen, to preach Christ and convert sinners, and to work for everything that will improve the condition of men and society NOW. But with Adventists these things are secondary or neglected entirely, while they constantly put their pet theories first and dwell upon them most of the time.

22. All in their system that has been a blessing to them is held also by all evangelical churches, such as faith in God, in Jesus and the Bible, a pure heart, holy life, self-denial, etc. Nothing good has come to them or to the world by those doctrines which are peculiar to Adventist, as the TIME of the advent, the condition of the dead, the Sabbath, the visions, etc.

23. Having been disappointed so many times and so long, taking so gloomy a view of things generally, they are as a class a very discouraged and unhappy set of people.

24. It is "another gospel," Gal. 1:6, which the apostles never preached. I was long impressed with the fact that we Adventists preached very differently from the apostles. For instance, we were always preaching and writing about the Sabbath, while Paul in all his fourteen epistles mentions it but ONCE, Col. 2:16, and then only to condemn it! "We find in the New Testament 'preach the gospel,' fifty times; 'preach Christ,' twenty-three times; 'preach the word,' seventeen times; 'preach the kingdom,' eight times; 'preach the law,' or 'the Sabbath,' not once!" Warner.

25. They are unpatriotic. Not a soul of them, man or woman, in field or hospital, lifted a finger to aid in putting down the rebellion or slavery. They staid [sp] at home and found fault. See Mrs. White's Testimonies, Vol. 1, pages 253-268. If a man had gone to war he would have been expelled from the church, for Mrs. White forbade it. Hear her: "I was shown that God's people, who are his peculiar treasure, cannot engage in this perplexing war, for it is opposed to every principle of their faith." Testimonies, Vol. 1, page 361. They hold that our nation is "the beast" of Rev. 13:11-18, which will soon become a tyranny. Mrs. White says: "The nation will be on the side of the great rebel leader," the Devil. Testimony No. 31, page 132. So they all feel.

26. Their false ideas of Sunday leads them to join with infidels, atheists, Jews, saloon-keepers and the irreligious generally in opposing any restriction on Sunday desecration. It is one of the anomalies of the age to see a Christian church unite with the worst elements of society and the enemies of Christ, to oppose the best interests of society and the sacrificing work of the most devout and intelligent of the land. What is a religion good for, anyway, which spoils a person for all practical usefulness in society? What does it mean to "love your neighbor"?

The Adventists and the Prophecies

The Adventists claim great light above all others on the prophecies. The old women and the little children among them confidently believe that they know more about the prophecies than all the commentators and scholars in the world. They can tell exactly what every horn, and wing, head and tail, trumpet and vial, beast or angel in all the prophecies means! Any possibility of mistake? Not the slightest. And yet probably no people ever made as many mistakes in the same length of time as Adventists have.

Consider how little critical knowledge of exact historical dates and facts common people really possess. The great mass of intelligent business men, farmers, mechanics, mothers and housekeepers, would be poor judges in such matters. Most of them know nothing about it. They could not intelligently dispute any statement a lecturer might make on such points. These Advent preachers go before such an audience night after night for six or eight weeks, with their positive statements boldly made and often repeated, till their deluded hearers think them to be the most wonderful historians, and accept their statements as undoubted truths! So of their Bible readers, who go from house to house to expound the deep things of God. I know them well, have taught many of them, and have been in their training schools. Many of them could not get a third grade certificate, nor have they ever read a volume of history. They simply learn by rote, parrot-like a lesson which they repeat glibly to the astonished farmer or unread mother. Get them off this track and they are dumb. They are like those whom Paul rebuked, "Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say nor whereof they affirm." 1 Tim. 1:7. This fits them exactly.
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Chapter VIII - Mrs. White and her Revelations (Back to Top)
Seventh-day Adventists regard Mrs. White as a prophetess and her writings as inspired. They make long arguments from the Bible to prove that there should be gifts, miracles and prophets in the church. But these are the same arguments used by the Mormons, Shakers, etc., in favor of their churches. They do not touch the case. The question is not, CAN the Lord inspire men and women? but, HAS he so inspired Mrs. White? The New Testament repeatedly warns us against accepting false prophets. "Beware of false prophets," Matt. 7:15. "There shall arise false Christ's and false prophets," Matt. 24:24. "Believe not every spirit...Many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1John 4:1.

In every generation many have arisen claiming to be prophets. All have found followers more or less. All they have to do is to firmly believe in themselves and make extravagant claims and they will soon have followers. Let us notice a few prominent ones near our own times.

1. Swedenborg

He was born in Stockholm, Sweden, 1688, and died in 1772. His father was a nobleman of high standing. Hence Swedenborg was highly educated and moved in the highest society. He traveled extensively, and conversed with the most learned men of the age. The king appointed him to a high office, which he filled with great acceptance for over thirty years. He rose to eminence in science and wrote seventy-seven books, covering every branch of science. He was of the purest character and devoutly religious.

Swedenborg's Rules of Life

1. Often to read and meditate on the Word of God.

2. To submit in everything to the will of Divine Providence.

3. To observe in everything a propriety of behavior, and to keep the conscience clear.

4. To discharge with fidelity the functions of my employment, and the duties of my office, and to render myself in all things useful to society.

Not a stain rests upon his moral character.

At the age of fifty-five he began to have visions of heaven, hell, angels, and the spiritual world. He says: "I have been called to a holy office by the Lord himself, who most mercifully appeared to me, his servant, in the year 1743, when he opened my sight into the spiritual world and enabled me to converse with spirits and angels." Exactly like Mrs. White claims. This work he continued for thirty years, and wrote about thirty inspired volumes. He made most remarkable predictions, which were exactly fulfilled, it is claimed.

He founded a new religion based upon his revelations. The Bible is sacredly taught and holy living enjoined.

This church has steadily increased, till it has societies in all parts of the world and in the leading languages. They publish three weeklies, five monthly journals, and one quarterly, besides many books. He got the start of Mrs. White just one hundred years. His followers believe in him just as implicitly as hers do in her, and are very zealous in propagating their faith. In many respects both moves are much alike. The above is condensed from Schaff-Herzog's Encyclopedia.

2. Ann Lee and the Shakers

These are so well known in America that I need say but little about them. Ann Lee, their leader, was born in England, in 1736; died 1784. Like Mrs. White, "she received no education." She joined a society who were having remarkable religious exercises, and soon began "to have visions and make revelations," which, just like Mrs. White, she called "testimonies." "Henceforth she claimed to be directed by revelations and visions." Schaff- Herzog Encyclopedia, article "Ann Lee." She was accepted as leader and as "the second appearing of Christ." Like Mrs. White, she required a "peculiar kind of dress," "opposed war and the use of pork." Johnson's Encyclopedia, article "Shakers." They have no intercourse with other churches; are renowned for their purity and devotion. They number about 8,000. A careful comparison shows many points of similarity between Mrs. Lee and Mrs. White. The main evidence upon which Adventists rely for proof of Mrs. White's inspiration is the purity of her life and the high moral and religious tone of her writings. They say her revelations must either be of God or Satan. If of Satan they would not teach such purity and holiness. The same reasoning will prove Mrs. Lee also a true prophetess, for she exceeds Mrs. White in this line, so that "Shaker" has become a synonym for honesty. Adventists, please note this point.

3. Mrs. Joanna Southcott

She was born in England in 1750, of poor parents, and was wholly uneducated. She worked as a domestic servant till over forty years of age. She joined the Methodists in 1790. In 1792 she announced herself as a prophetess, and "published numerous [over sixty] pamphlets setting forth her revelations." Johnson's Encyclopedia, article "Southcott." She had trances the same as Mrs. White does, and announced the speedy advent of Christ. See Encyclopedia Americana, article "Southcott." She carried on a lucrative trade in the sale of her books as Mrs. White does. Strange as it may appear, many learned ministers believed in her, and thousands joined her followers, till in a few years they numbered upwards of one hundred thousand! She made many predictions, which her followers claimed were fulfilled. "The faith of her followers, among whom were several clergymen of the established church, rose to enthusiasm." Encyclopedia Americana, article "Southcott."

She "regarded herself as the bride of the Lamb, and declared herself, when sixty-four years of age, pregnant with the true Messiah, the 'second Shilo,' whom she would bear Oct. 19, 1814... Joanna dies in her self delusion Dec. 27, 1814; but her followers, who at one time numbered a hundred thousand, continued till 1831 to observe the Jewish Sabbath." Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia. "A post mortem examination showed that she had been suffering from dropsy [edema]." Johnson's Cyclopedia. "Death put an end to both her hopes and her fears. With her followers, however, it was otherwise; and, though for a time confounded by her decease, which they could scarcely believe to be real, her speedy resurrection was confidently anticipated. In this persuasion many lived and died, nor is her sect yet extinct." Encyclopedia Americana, article "Southcott."

Let candid people consider these facts. This movement occurring only thirty years before Mrs. White's work, was in several respects like the present Seventh-day Adventist move. An illiterate woman is the leader. She has visions, writes numerous pamphlets and revelations and predicts the speedy advent of Christ. Her honesty is plainly manifested; her enthusiasm and that of her followers is great. In a short period one hundred thousand accept her "testimonies." The present Seventh-day Adventist move is similar in many respects as has already been seen above.

And here notice the terrible tenacity of fanaticism when once started. When Joanna died we would have supposed that all sane persons would have given it up; but they fix it up some way and go right on, and there they are now. So with the followers of Mrs. White. No matter what blunders or failures she makes, they fix them up some way and go right on. They will do it after she is dead and gone.

4. Joseph Smith and the Mormons

This prophet and his visions and revelations are so well known that I mention them briefly. Smith was born in 1805, and died in 1844, the year before Mrs. White began her revelations. He came out in a great religious awakening, as Mrs. White did in the Advent move of 1843-4. In 1823 he also began to have "visions" and "revelations" and see angels. The second advent of Christ was at hand, he said, hence the name, "Latter day saints." His mission was to introduce "the new dispensation." They are the "saints," and all the other churches are "heathen," or Gentiles. Mrs. White's followers are all saints; all other churches are "Babylon" and apostate.

The proof of their inspiration outstrips Mrs. White. They work many miracles, as they strongly assert, have the gift of tongues, and can show many predictions strikingly fulfilled. I have met them frequently, seen Smith's son, and know them well. They also have a new Bible, a new revelation, have started a new sect, and will have nothing to do with others, but proselyte from all.

The Mormons began in 1831, about fifteen years before Seventh-day Adventists did; but they number six hundred thousand, more than five times as many as Adventists. Adventists claim that they must be the true church because they are persecuted; but Mormons have been persecuted a thousand fold more. Smith and others were killed; many have been whipped, tarred and feathered, rotten- egged, stoned, mobbed, run out of town, and outlawed. So they must be the true church? Seventh-day Adventists have suffered no persecution. Not one of them has ever been whipped, or stoned, or egged, or tarred and feathered, or mobbed, or killed. Persecution! They have no idea what it is and never will though they are anxious to pose as great martyrs.

The Visions and their Guide

Mrs. E.G. White, wife of the late Elder White, leader of the Seventh-day Adventists, claims to be divinely inspired as were the prophets of the Bible. This claim is accepted by the whole denomination. They defend her inspiration as earnestly as they do that of the Bible. Year after year, in their State and General Conferences, ironclad resolutions have been unanimously adopted, endorsing her revelations in the strongest manner.

Time and again I have seen these resolutions adopted by a rising vote of the whole congregation, myself with them. "The visions of Mrs. E.G. White, a manifestation of spiritual Gifts according to the Scriptures," is a book of 144 pages published by them defending her inspiration.

They point to her and her visions as the sign and proof that they are the only true church. Rev. 12:17. Hence it can be seen that this is a vital subject with them.

In my debate with the Adventists at Healdsburg, Cal., Feb. 21-28, 1889, they affirmed this proposition: "The visions of Mrs. E.G. White are revelations from God." Her writings are called "Testimonies." In Testimony No. 33, just published, she makes this claim for her writings: "In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his spirit." Page 189. Again: "It is hardly possible for men to offer a greater insult to God than to despise and reject the instrumentalities [her Testimonies] that he has appointed to lead these." Page 208. Notice that her "Testimonies" are to LEAD God's people now. Of her inspiration Smith says: "It comes to us as a divine message; it is a ray of light from the throne; it is instruction by the Holy Spirit." Replies to Elder Canright, page 77.

In the Advent Review, July 2, 1889, are laid down these, "RULES: 1. We will not neglect the study of the Bible and the Testimonies." This illustrates the place they assign her writings, viz., an appendix to the Bible. She occupies the same relation to her people that Mrs. Southcott did to hers, Ann Lee to the Shakers, and Joe Smith to the Mormons.

Among themselves they quote her as we do Paul. A text from her writings is an end of all controversy in doctrine and discipline. It is common to hear them say that when they give up her visions they will give up the Bible too, and they often do.

Her visions, or "testimonies," as they are called, are so inseparably connected with the whole Seventh-day Adventist doctrine that a person cannot consistently accept the one without accepting the other. Besides, they are so constantly urged upon their people in every possible way, that a person cannot long feel comfortable among them unless he, too accepts them. Any one who rejects or opposes them is branded as a rebel fighting against God. Thus Mrs. White herself says: "If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Kora, Dathan and Abiram." Testimony No. 31, page 62. She claims that every line she writes, even in a private letter, is directly inspired by God - "the precious rays of light shining from the throne," page 63. Of her own words she says: "It is God, and not an erring mortal, that has spoken." Testimonies, Vol. III, page 257. She states over and over that those who doubt or oppose her are fighting against God, sinning against the Holy Ghost. Thus: "fighting the Spirit of God. Those...who would break down our testimony, I saw, are not fighting against us, but against God," page 260. I could quote scores of passages like these.

These inspired writings now embrace forty bound volumes. Thus they have another Bible, just the same as the Mormons have. They have to read our old Bible in the light of this new Bible. Any interpretation of the Bible found in these "testimonies" settles its meaning beyond further dispute. She says: "I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with several testimonies to the church," Vol. 2, page 605. Exactly; and by the light of these "testimonies" that old Bible must now be read. She continues: "God has, through the testimonies, simplified the great truths already given." Yes, we must now take the Bible as thus simplified by her! Swedenborg, Mrs. Southcott, Ann Lee, Joseph Smith and Mrs. White have each done the same thing - had a new revelation, written inspired books, and started a new sect with a new religion.

There is not a doctrine or a practice of the church, from the observance of the Sabbath to the washing of feet, upon which she has not written. That settles it. No further investigation can be made on any of these matters, only to gather evidence and construe everything to sustain it. How, then, can their ministers or people be free to think and investigate for themselves? They can not, dare not, and do not. How often I have seen some intelligent thought extinguished with this remark: "That contradicts Sister White." This ends the matter. Everything she writes, whether in a private letter or newspaper article, is inspired. Thus: "God was speaking through clay.... In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne." Testimony No. 31, page 63. There you have it simon pure: every word she writes is a ray of light from the throne of God. Reject that, and you are rejected of God.

Thus it will be seen that Mrs. White claims the very highest inspiration, the voice of God speaking directly through her. Her followers contend that she must either be a true prophetess or else a hypocrite; but she is neither. Few are aware of what a powerful influence an excited religious imagination will have over a person. Enthusiasts and fanatics are generally honest people. Mrs. White is simply a religious enthusiast self-deceived. This I shall prove by stubborn facts.

I long studied Mrs. White to determine for myself her real character till her case is clear to my own mind. Naturally religious, young in years, uneducated, sickly, she was carried away in the Millerite excitement of 1840- 44. Her fits she accepted as the power of God. Encouraged and sustained by her husband, this thought grew to be a reality to her. A careful study of her writings shows that each year she has become a little stronger in her claims of inspiration till now she asserts that all her utterances, even in a letter, or in a sermon, are inspired. She claims that her dreams, her impressions of mind are all the voice of God to her. She devotes 38 pages of her Testimony No. 33 to vindicating her own high inspiration. Probably she has some way of fixing up her mistakes, contradictions and deceptions satisfactory to herself. So now anything she can learn in any way, any impression of mind, any thought clear to herself, is the Spirit speaking to her. I have no doubt that she believes it. She is more deceived than her followers, for many of them privately doubt her inspiration while publicly defending it.

That she is not inspired is plainly shown by many facts. She has never wrought a single miracle. The old prophets and the apostles wrought miracles freely, to prove that God had sent them. In all these seventy years, in all her forty volumes, not a single prediction has she ever made that has come to pass. This is astonishing, considering that she dwells almost wholly in predictions. It seems as though she ought to have blundered into many things which could afterward be construed into a fulfilled prophecy. But not one can be found. This shows how wild and utterly wrong her theories have been.

She says in "Spiritual Gifts," Vol. II, page 293: "I am just as dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in relating or writing a vision as in having a vision." Here she claims that the very words in which her visions are recorded are of divine inspiration. But I know that the words in her written "testimonies" are not inspired; for -

1. When writing them out she will often change what she has written, and write it very differently. I have seen her scratch out a whole page, or a line, or a sentence, and write it over differently. If God gave her the words, why did she scratch them out and alter them?

2. I have repeatedly seen her sit with pen in hand and read her manuscript to her husband for hours, while he suggested many changes, which she made. She would scratch out her own words and put in his, sometimes whole sentences. Was he inspired, too?

3. As she is ignorant of grammar, of late years she has employed an accomplished writer to take her manuscript and correct it, improve its wording, polish it up, and put it in popular style, so her books will sell better. Thousands of words, not her own, are thus put in by these other persons, some of whom are not even Christian. Are their words inspired, too?

4. She often copies her subject matter without credit or sign of quotation, from other authors. Indeed her last book, "Great Controversy," which they laud so highly as her greatest work, is largely a compilation from Andrew's History of the Sabbath, History of the Waldenses by Wylie, Life of Miller by White, Thoughts on Revelation by Smith, and other books.

This she pretends was all revealed to her directly from heaven. It is not something she has heard or read or studied out, but it is what God has revealed to her by the Holy Ghost. Stubborn facts show that her claim is utterly false and her book a deception the same as the Book of Mormon, which Smith stole from Spaulding.

The Pastor's Union of Healdsburg, Cal., investigated the matter and published many examples out of hundreds where she had copied her matter directly from other authors without anything to show it was copied. They went through several works and scores of pages finding the same thing all through her book. This proves her guilty of stealing her ideas and matter from other authors and putting them off on her followers as a revelation from God!

5. Passages Suppressed. Several important passages in the first edition of her visions have been suppressed in all later ones as they contradict what Adventists now believe. For thirty years they have chafed under this charge of suppression. They have denied it, made light of it; and finally the pressure was so hard that in 1882, they republished her first visions, claiming to give them all and word for word. They say: "No changes from the original work have been made." Preface to Early Writings, page 4. They also say the work was printed "under the authors own eye and with her full approval." Page 4. They denounce it as a wicked slander to say that anything has been suppressed.

But I have before me the original work entitled, "A Word to the Little Flock," published by Jas. White, 1847; also "The Present Truth," August, 1849, containing her original visions. Comparing the present edition with the original, I find seven different places where from FIVE to THIRTY lines in a place have been cut right out with no sign of omission! The suppressed passages are very damaging to her inspiration. I will give one short one as an illustration. It teaches what they now deny, viz., that no one could be converted after 1844. The suppressed lines are in brackets.

As Originally Published



"I saw that the mysterious signs and wonders, and false reformations would increase and spread. The reformations that were shown me were not reformations from error to truth [but from bad to worse, for those who professed a change of heart had only wrapped about them a religious garb, which covered up the iniquity of a wicked heart. Some appeared to have been really converted, so as to deceive God's people, but if their hearts could be seen they would appear as black as ever]. My accompanying angel bade me to look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it, for the time for their salvation is past." Present Truth, page 22, published August, 1849.

As Now Published

"I saw that the mysterious signs and wonders, and false reformations would increase and spread. The reformations that were shown me were not reformations from error to truth. My accompanying angel bade me to look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it, for the time for their salvation is past." Page 37, edition of 1882.

Now if they mean to be honest and dare publish these suppressed passages, why don't they? They know very well what they are; Mrs. White knows what they are; yet the book is republished "under her own eye" and all these passages left out when it is states that "no changes from the original work have been made." I have both books before me now and know the statement to be untrue and so do they; yet they keep right on sending it out.

6. In 1885 all her "testimonies" were republished in four volumes, under the eye of her own son and a critical editor. Opening hap-hazard to four different pages in Vol. I., I read and compared them with the original publication which I have. I found an average TWENTY-FOUR CHANGES OF THE WORDS ON EACH PAGE! Her words were thrown out and other words put in and other changes made, in some cases so many that it was difficult to read the two together. At the same rate in the four volumes, there would be 63,720 changes.

Taking, then, the words which were put in by her husband, by her copyist, by her son, by her editors, and those copied from other authors, probably they comprise from one-tenth to one quarter of all her books. Fine inspiration that is! The common reader knows nothing about these damaging facts, but I could not avoid knowing them, for I have been where I saw it myself.

I could fill a volume with proof of her mistakes, for all of her books are full of them. I will select but a few.

THE SHUT DOOR. For several years after 1844, Mrs. White had visions saying that probation ended in that year, that there was no more salvation for sinners. Of course she has to deny this now, but the proof is overwhelmingly against her.

1. Seventh-day Adventists are compelled to admit that for some time after 1844 Adventists did hold that probation was ended. Even Mrs. White admits it. She says: "After the passing of the time of expectation, in 1844, Adventists still believed the Saviour's coming to be very near; they held that...the work of Christ as man's intercessor before God had ceased. Having given the warning of the judgment near, they felt that their work for the world was done, and they lost their burden of soul for the salvation of sinners.... All this confirmed them in the belief that probation had ended, or, as they then expressed it, 'the door of mercy was shut.'" Great Controversy, page 268. This statement of Mrs. White herself is enough to settle the point that the Adventists believed "the door of mercy was shut" in 1844. Notice here that the "shut door" means the end of probation, the close of mercy for sinners.

Mr. Miller for a while advocated the shut door in 1844. He says: "We have done our work in warning sinners and in trying to awake a formal church. God in his providence has SHUT THE DOOR; we can only stir one another up to be patient." Advent Herald, Dec. 11, 1844.

Then in the Voice of Truth, Feb. 19, 1845, he says: "I have not seen a genuine conversion since."

Elder G.I. Butler, in the Review and Herald, March 3, 1885, says: "As the time passed there was a general feeling among all the earnest believers that their work for the world was done." "There can be no question that for months after the time passed it was the general sentiment that their work of warning the world was over." "Their burden was gone, and they thought their work was done." Yes; that is just what they did believe, probation was ended.

2. I have conversed with several individuals who affirm positively that they heard her teach this repeatedly. There are many now living who will swear that they heard her teach it.

3. Written testimony. John Megquier, Saco, Me., a man noted for his integrity, writes: "We well know the course of Ellen G. White, the visionist, while in the state of Maine. About the first visions she had were at my house in Poland. She said that God had told her in vision that the door of mercy had closed, and there was no more chance for the world." The True Sabbath, by Miles Grant, page 70. Mrs. L.S. Burdick, San Francisco, California, was well acquainted with Mrs. White. She writes: "I became acquainted with James White and Ellen Harmon (now Mrs. White) early in 1845. At the time of my first acquaintance with them they were in wild fanaticism, used to sit on the floor instead of chairs, and creep around the floor like little children. Such freaks were considered a mark of humility. They were not married, but traveling together. Ellen was having what was called visions; said God had shown her in vision that Jesus Christ arose on the tenth day of the seventh month, 1844, and shut the door of mercy; had left forever the mediatorial throne; the whole world was doomed and lost and there never could be another sinner saved." L.S. Burdick, "True Sabbath," page 72. O.R.L. Crosier kept the Sabbath with them in 1848. He writes: "Ann Arbor, Mich., Dec. 1, 1887. Yes, I KNOW that Ellen G. Harmon, now Mrs. White, held the shut door theory at that date." Then he gives the proof. These persons knew the facts and have put their testimony on record.

4. The Present Truth. James White, editor, Oswego, N.Y., May, 1850, has an article by the editor on the "Sanctuary, 2300 Days, and the Shut Door." Elder White says: "At that point of time [1844] the midnight cry was given, the work for the world was closed up, and Jesus passed into the Most Holy place.... When we came up to that point of time, all our sympathy, burden and prayers for sinners ceased, and the unanimous feeling and testimony was that our work for the world was finished forever.... He [Jesus] is still merciful to his saints, and ever will be; and Jesus is still THEIR advocate and priest; but the sinner, to whom Jesus had stretched out his arms all the day long, and who had rejected the offers of salvation, was LEFT WITHOUT AN ADVOCATE when Jesus passed from the holy place and shut that door in 1844." Any honest man can see that the shut door meant no salvation for sinners, and this is what Elder White taught in 1850. In a report of labor in the Advent Review, May 15, 1850, Elder White, in noticing the death of a sister Hastings, says: "She embraced the Sabbath in 1846, and has ever believed that the work of warning the world closed in 1844."

Again: "Many will point us to one who is said to be converted, for positive proof that the door is not shut, thus yielding the word of God for the feelings of an individual." Present Truth, Dec. 1849. This shows that they held to the shut door idea for years after 1844. What a fanatical and abominable doctrine that was for Christians to teach! Mrs. White was right with them and in full harmony with them on this all these years. She had revelations almost daily. If they were of God, why did she not correct them in this fearful error? Even if she had said nothing confirming this delusion, yet the simple fact that she had no revelation contradicting it all during these years, is enough to destroy her claim to inspiration. But the fact is, she taught this error as strongly in her visions as the brethren did in their arguments.

Here are her own words: "March 24, 1849.... I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, relating to the shut door, could not be separated.... I saw that the mysterious signs and wonders, and false reformations would increase and spread. The reformations that were shown me were not reformations from error to truth but from bad to worse, for those who professed a change of heart had only wrapped about them a religious garb, which covered up the iniquity of a wicked heart. Some appeared to have been really converted, so as to deceive God's people, but if their hearts could be seen they would appear as black as ever. My accompanying angel bade me to look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it, for the time for their salvation is past." Present Truth, pages 21-22, published August, 1849.

Here you have the shut door and no mercy for sinners just as clear as language can make it. Every candid reader knows what it teaches. It is pitiable to see the shifts and turns, evasions, dodges, quibbles, if not something worse, resorted to on this passage to save Mrs. White's visions. But there it stands, to mock at all their efforts. Here is another passage teaching the same doctrine: "it was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the city, as all the wicked world which God had rejected." 'A Word to the Little Flock,' page 14, published in 1847. At this time, then, God had rejected the wicked world - shut door, you see.

Here is another vision in which she teaches the doctrine of the shut door in its very worst form, that is that after 1844 not one ray of light comes from Jesus to the wicked but they are all turned over to the devil to whom they now pray instead of to God. After Jesus left the holy place she says: "I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after he arose and they were left in perfect darkness.... Satan appeared to be by the throne trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne and pray, Father give us thy spirit; then Satan would breathe upon them an unholy influence." Early Writings, pages 46-47. Not one ray of light comes to sinners since 1844 but all are left to the Devil! What is the use of their denying that she taught this doctrine? She certainly did and she knows it. This fact and the bold denial of it now, brand her as a false teacher.

I will briefly notice some other mistakes she had made, enough to show that she is wholly unreliable.

1. For over forty years she, herself, has been constantly expecting the end of the world, and it has not come yet. This alone ought to open the eyes of all to see that she has no knowledge of the future.

2. Slaves. In 1849 she foretold what would happen when Jesus comes, and said: "I saw the pious slave rise in triumph and victory and shake off the chains that bound him, while his wicked master was in confusion." Early Writings, page 28. But now there are no slaves. She had not then dreamed of the abolition of slavery.

3. Nations angry. "The nations are NOW getting angry." Early Writings, page 29. That was thirty-eight years ago. It takes a long time for them to get fighting mad!

4. Another mistake. "Some are looking too far off for the coming of the Lord." Page 49. That was thirty-eight years ago, and no Adventist then looked for time to last ten years.

5. Another blunder. "The time for Jesus to be in the most holy place was nearly finished." Page 49. Jesus went there in 1844. Hence, he had then been there six years. She saw that the time for him to be there was nearly finished, but it has continued sixty years since. A false prediction, as any one can see.

6. A few months only in 1849. "Now time is almost finished, and what we have been [six] years learning, they [new converts] will have to learn in a few months." Page 57. But instead of a few months, they have had sixty years!

7. She broke the Sabbath for eleven years. Though she had vision after vision about the Sabbath, yet for eleven years they all began it at six P.M. instead of at sunset as the law requires. Lev. 23:32. When they found their mistake, she saw it, too, in vision. She says: "I acquired why it has been thus that at this late date we must change." Testimony No. 1, page 13. A poor leader she.

8. Her predictions about the rebellion a failure. "Jan. 4, 1862, I was shown some things in regard to our nation." Testimonies, Vol. I, page 253. All will remember the great anxiety and uncertainty of those days. How would the war end? Specially were her people anxious, as they were non-combatants and liable to the draft. Here was an inspired prophetess right in their midst, having abundant revelations about the length of women's dresses, what people should eat, etc. What relief to all would have been a few short words from heaven about the results of the war. The pressure upon her for light was so great that she had to say something. So she took her pen and scribbled away through thirty-two long pages about the war. At this date it is amusing to read it. This "revelation" alone is enough to show that she knows absolutely nothing of the future. All she wrote was merely a restatement of the popular view of the matter at the time. I shall quote a few sentences as samples. "The system of slavery, which has ruined our nation, is left to live and stir up another rebellion." Was slavery left to stir up another rebellion? Now we know that statement was utterly untrue.

Again: "It seemed impossible to have the war conducted successfully," page 256. Another failure, for it was conducted successfully. All can see that her ideas were just those generally rife at the time. I have long watched and studied her carefully, till I have become satisfied that this is always true of her prophesyings - they are wholly moulded by the sentiment around her at the time. Here is another: "This nation will yet be humbled into the dust," page 259. Was it? No. Again: "When England does declare war, all nations will have an interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war," page 259. Did anything of this kind happen? No; but it is just what all then expected. Once more: "Had our nation remained united, it would have had strength; but divided, it MUST FALL," page 260. How it did fall! "I was shown distress and perplexity and famine in the land," page 260. Just what all expected then; but where was the famine? "It looked to me like an impossibility now for slavery to be done away," page 266. Of course it did, for that was just the way it looked to all others then. But did it look that way to God? That was the question. Was he telling her?

She claims that what she writes is not merely her own ideas but the mind of God himself. Thus: "I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision." Testimony, No. 31, page 63. This, then, was the way the thing looked to God at that time! Again: "Blood has been poured out like water, and for naught." Testimony for the Church, Vol. I, page 367. Was it for naught, ye brave soldiers? Ye liberated slaves? Ye freed nation? I could give scores of such quotations all through her writings, showing how they have failed always and everywhere.

The Reform Dress

One of the worst blunders Mrs. White ever made, one which plainly showed her fanaticism and that God had nothing to do with her work, was the move she made on dress. First she wrote: "God would not have his people adopt the so-called reform dress," Testimonies, Vol. I, page 421. "If women would wear their dresses so as to clear the filth of the streets an inch or two," it would be in harmony with their faith, page 424. Four years pass, and she again writes: "God would now have his people adopt the reform dress," page 525. "Nine inches as nearly accords my views of the matter as I am able to express it in inches," page 521. Here are two revelations exactly opposite as to the style of dress and the length, an inch or two, then nine inches, from the ground is the length. What occasioned this change in the mind of the Lord? The answer is easy: In the time between the two revelations Mrs. White had spent some time at Dr. Jackson's "Home," Dansville, N.Y. Here a short dress with pants was worn, and she fell in with the idea and soon had a vision requiring its adoption as above. That is the whole of it. But the dress was a shame and a disgrace and an utter failure. Think of a modest woman on the streets with pants on, and her dress cut half way up to the knees! But for eight years Mrs. White pushed that dress with all her power, put it on herself as an example, till most of the sisters put it on. But it created a terrible commotion. Husbands swore, brothers refused to walk with their sisters, men sneered and boys hooted. Some of the sisters argued, some cried, some rebelled, but most submitted. I know, for my own wife wore it for eight years - had to. Finally, Mrs. White quietly dropped it off herself, and now no one wears it. Here they are all living in direct violation of a plain revelation from God! Common sense came out ahead of fanaticism.

If God ever spoke through Mrs. White about anything, he did about the dress, requiring the woman to wear it. I was there and know how she urged it, heard her many times. Her Testimonies at the time were full of it. She said: "I have done my duty; I have bourne my testimony, and those who have heard me and read that which I have written, must now bear the responsibility of receiving or rejecting the light given. If they choose to venture to be forgetful hearers, and not doers of the work, they run their own risk, and will be accountable to God!" Testimonies, Vol. I, page 525. Yet they have all run the risk and laid off the dress, Mrs. White with the rest. How does she get out of it? By all sorts of dodges, by blaming everybody but herself. It has been a great stumbling block to them.

Her Revelations Influenced by Others

Mrs. White originates nothing. In her visions she always sees just what she and her friends at the time happen to believe and be interested in. Her husband and other leading men first accept or study out a theory and talk it till her mind is full of it. Then when she is in her trance that is just what she sees. One who has been all through the Advent work and well knows, says: "The visions have brought out no points of faith held by Seventh-day Adventists."

Mrs. White herself confesses that she is influenced by others in writing her "Testimonies." Thus: pages 138-139. "What appeared in Testimony No. 11, concerning the Health Institute should not have been given until I was able to write out all I had seen in regard to it.... I yielded my judgment to that of others and wrote what appeared in No. 11.... In this I did wrong." Testimonies, Vol. I, page 563. She here "lets the cat out of the bag." She made such a blunder that she was compelled to blame some one else for it and so to tell the truth that she was influenced by others to do it! Fine inspiration.

Elder White was well aware of how she was influenced by others to see and write as they impressed her to do. Hence he was very jealous of having leading men talk anything to her alone opposing his views, for he feared she would then have a revelation favoring them and opposing him as indeed she did towards the last. Thus he wrote: "The pressure has been terribly hard on my poor wife. She has been impressed very much by Elders Butler and Haskell." Again: "I think my wife has been more severe than the Lord really required her to be in some cases. Satan has taken great advantage.... Elders Butler and Haskell have had an influence over her that I hope to see broken. It has nearly ruined her. These men must not be supported by our people to do as they have done." James White, Battle Creek, May 25, 1881. That shows the confidence which her own husband had in her revelations.

The Philosophy of Mrs. White's Visions

The proof is abundant that Mrs. White's visions are merely the result of nervous disease, a complication of hysteria, catalepsy and ecstasy. That she honestly believes in them herself, I do not doubt. I have personally known four other women, all Seventh-day Adventists, who likewise had visions. All were sincere Christians, and fully believed in their own visions. But all were sickly, nervous females, and hysterical. Not being encouraged in them, but opposed by their ministers, they finally gave them up. In every age such cases have been numerous, of whom a few, like Mrs. Southcott, Mrs. Ann Lee and Mrs. White, have become noted for awhile.

Medical books and cyclopedias, under the words "hysteria," "catalepsy" and "ecstasy," give a complete description of Mrs. White's case, as stated by herself and husband. This anyone may see by one day's study. My space will allow me to give but a few points.

1. The sex - a female. "The vast preponderance of hysteria in the female sex has given rise to its name." Raynold's System of Medicine, article, Hysteria. So say all the authorities. This fits Mrs. White, a female.

2. The age. "Hysteria is infinitely more common among females, beginning usually from fifteen to eighteen or twenty years of age." Theory and Practice of Medicine, by Roberts, page 399. "In the female sex, hysteria usually commences at or about the time of puberty, i.e., between twelve and eighteen years of age." Raynold's System of Medicine, article, Hysteria. Here again it exactly fits the case of Mrs. White. She had her first vision at the age of seventeen. See Testimonies, Vol. I, page 62. "Notwithstanding this mode of life, their health does not materially deteriorate." Johnson's Cyclopedia, article, Hysteria. So with Mrs. White. She has gradually improved in health and her visions have as gradually ceased. At first she had visions almost daily, but they have grown less frequent as she grew older and healthier, till after about forty-five years of age, since which time she has not averaged one in five years, and even these are short and light, till now she has ceased entirely to have them. Now read this: "Hysteria generally attacks women from the age of puberty to the decline of the peculiar functions of her sex." Johnson's Cyclopedia, article, Hysteria. Mrs. White's case again, exactly.

3. The cause. Hysteria, catalepsy, epilepsy and ecstasy are all nervous diseases, which sometimes co-exist or alternate or blend together so it is difficult to distinguish them. The causes noted are: "1. Mental disturbance, especially emotional; for example, a sudden fright, prolonged grief or anxiety. 2. Physical influences affecting the brain, as a BLOW OR FALL ON THE HEAD." Theory and Practice of Medicine, by Roberts, page 393. "In ten of my cases the disease was due to reflex causes, which consisted in six cases of injuries to the head." Fundamental Nervous Disease, Putzel, page 66. This is Mrs. White again, exactly. At the age of nine she received a terrible blow on the face, which broke her nose and nearly killed her. She was unconscious for three weeks. See her life in Testimony, Vol. I, pages 9-10. This shock to her nervous system was the real cause of all the visions she afterwards had.

4. Always weakly and sickly. "Most hysterical persons are out of health." Theory and Practice of Medicine, by Roberts, page 404. "Fainting fits, palpitation of the heart appear very frequently and are sometimes so severe that persons affected with them seem to be dying." Encyclopedia Americana, article, Hysteria. Now read the life of Mrs. White, and she tells it over and over, times without number, about fainting frequently, pain at the heart, and about being so sick that she expected to die. And it is remarkable that most of her visions were immediately preceded by one of these fainting death spells. This shows plainly that they are the result of nervous weakness. She says: "My feelings were unusually sensitive." Testimonies Vol. I, page 12. Now read this: "Woman...whose nervous system is extremely sensitive, are the most subject to hysterical affections," Encyclopedia Americana, article, Hysteria. An exact fit.

Mrs. White's Physical Condition as Written by Herself in Testimony, Vol. I

When nine years old a girl hit her on the nose with a stone, broke her nose, and nearly killed her. Page 9. "I lay in a stupor for three weeks." Page 10. "I was reduced almost to a skeleton." Page 11. "My health seemed to be hopelessly impaired." Page 12. "My nervous system was prostrated." Page 13. Here was the origin of her hysteria of after years. In this condition she "listened to the startling announcement that Christ was coming in 1843." Page 14. "These words kept ringing in my ears; 'the great day of the Lord is at hand.'" Page 15. "I frequently attended the meetings and believed that Jesus was soon to come." Page 22. Of her impression of hell she says: "My imagination would be so wrought upon that the perspiration would start." Page 24. "I feared that I would lose my reason." Page 25. At one time she did become insane for two weeks as she writes herself. Spiritual Gifts, Vol. II, page 51. She continues: "My health was very poor." Testimonies, Vol. I, page 55. It was thought that she could live but a few days. Then it was that she had her first vision, really a fit. Page 58. "I was but seventeen years of age, small and frail." Page 62. "My strength was taken away," and angels talk with her. Page 64. "My friends thought I could not live.... Immediately taken off in vision." Page 67. Notice that her visions happen when she is very sick! This tells the story; they are the result of her physical weakness. If it was the power of the Holy Ghost, why didn't God send it when she was well? Why not?

"I often fainted like one dead." The next day she was well and "rode thirty-eight miles." Page 80. This is characteristic of hysterical females, as all know who have seen them. They are just dying one hour and all well the next. Mrs. White has gone through that a thousand times. She is just dying, is prayed for, is healed by God, and all well in a few minutes. In a few days she goes right over it again. But if God heals her, why doesn't she stay healed? This used to bother me. When Jesus healed a man, did he have to go back and be healed over again every few days? She goes on: "I fainted under the burden. Some feared I was dying.... I was soon lost to earthly things" - had a vision. Page 86. Again: "I fainted. Prayer was offered for me and I was blessed and taken off in vision." Page 88. There you have it, the same old story. It is simply her hysterical imagination, nothing more. Next page. "I fainted...taken off in vision." So she goes on all through her book. Says the Encyclopedia Americana, article, Hysteria: "Fainting fits, palpitation of the heart appear very frequently and are sometimes so severe that persons afflicted with them seem to be dying." Mrs. White exactly.

On page after page the same story is repeated by herself. In the account of her last vision, Jan. 3, 1875, she was very sick till it ended in a vision. Testimonies, Vol. III, page 570. Dreadful sick, almost dead, then a vision - this is the story, times without number, from her own pen. That tells the story. The vision is the result of her physical weakness.

5. Visions in public. "As a rule a fit of hysteria occurs when other persons are present, and never comes on during sleep." Theory and Practice of Medicine, by Roberts, page 401. Most of her visions occur in public, and generally while she is very sick, or when praying or speaking earnestly. This was the case with her first vision. Spiritual Gifts, Vol. I, page 30. So, again, on pages 37, 48, 51, 62, 83, and many more, she has her visions in the presence of many. I do not know that she ever had a vision alone.

6. Inclination to Exaggerate and Deceive. All medical books state that hysterical persons are given to exaggeration and deception. The inclination is irresistible. Nothing can break them of it. Gurnsey's Obstetrics, article Hysteria, says: "Such persons entertain their hearers with marvelous tales of the greatness and exploits of their past lives.... These accounts are uttered with an air of sincerity well calculated to deceive the honest listener, and such unbridled license of the imagination and total obliviousness in regard to the truth, which are vulgarly attributed to an entire want of principle and the most inordinate vanity, are in reality due to that morbid condition of the female organism which is designed by the comprehensive term hysteria."

Mrs. White is always telling what great things she has done. The deception which she so often practices, and which I have witnessed in her myself, is here accounted for on principles which do not impeach the moral character, and I am glad to accept the explanation.

7. Does not breathe. "Stoppage of respiration usually complete." "Generally appears to hold his breath." Robert's Theory and Practice of Medicine, page 393-394. Elder White, describing her condition in vision says: "She does not breathe." Life Incidents, page 272. They always refer to this fact with great confidence as proof of the supernatural in her visions; but it will be seen that it is common in these diseases.
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8. Importance of self. "There is a prevailing belief in the importance of self, and the patient thinks that she differs from every other human being." Raynold's System of Medicine, article, Hysteria. Mrs. White to a hair. Hear her laud herself: "It is God, and not an erring mortal, who has spoken." "God has laid upon my husband and myself a special work." "God has appointed us to a more trying work than he has others." Testimonies, Vol. III, pages 257, 258, 160. I have known her nearly thirty years, and I never knew her to make confession of a single sin or evil in all that time, not she. Seventh-day Adventists ridicule the Pope's claim to infallibility but they themselves are bowing to the authority of a woman who makes higher claims to infallibility than ever pope or prophet did. Space will not allow me to fill out every particular of her experience by quotations from medical works compared with her own statements; but even these given above are sufficient to show the nature and philosophy of her attacks. They are the result of nervous disease, precisely the same as has been often seen in the case of thousands of other sickly females.

9. Testimony of Three Physicians. Dr. Fairfield was brought up a Seventh-day Adventist; was for years a physician in their Sanitarium at Battle Creek. He has had the best opportunity to observe Mrs. White. He writes: "Battle Creek, Mich., Dec. 28, 1887. Dear Sir: You are undoubtedly right in ascribing Mrs. E.G. White's so-called visions to disease. It has been my opportunity to observe her case a good deal, covering quite a period of years, which, with a full knowledge of her history from the beginning, gave me no chance to doubt her ("divine") attacks to be simply hysterical trances. Age itself has almost cured her. W.J. Fairfield, M.D."

Dr. Wm. Russell, long a Seventh-day Adventist, and a chief physician in the Sanitarium, wrote July 12th, 1869, that he had made up his mind some time in the past, "that Mrs. White's visions were the result of a diseased organization or condition of the brain or nervous system." "When giving to a conference at Pilot Grove, Iowa, 1865, an account of her visit at Dr. Jackson's health institute, she stated that the doctor, upon a medical examination, pronounced her a subject of hysteria." Mrs. White's Claims Examined, page 76.

Here is the testimony of three physicians, who have personally examined Mrs. White. She joined the Millerites in their great excitement of 1843-44. In their meetings she often fainted from excitement. In the enthusiasm and fanaticism of the time many had various "gifts," visions, trances, etc. She drank deeply of their spirit. The grief and disappointment of the passing of the set time were too much for her feeble condition. Says Dr. Roberts: "The exciting cause of the first hysterical fit is generally some powerful sudden emotional disturbance." "Sometimes the attack is preceded by disappointment, fear, violent, exciting or even religious emotions." Library of Universal Knowledge, article, Catalepsy. Just her case in 1844, in the great excitement and disappointment she then met.

Has Visions of Heaven, Angels, Etc.

Dr. George B. Wood's "Practice of Medicine," page 721 of Vol. II, in treating of mental disorders, and explaining the cause and phenomena of trances, says: "Ecstasy is an affection in which, with a loss of consciousness of existing circumstances, and insensibility to impression from without, there is an apparent exaltation of the intellectual or emotional functions, as if the individual were raised into a different nature, or different sphere of existence. The patient appears wrapped up in some engrossing thought or feeling, with an expression upon his countenance as of lofty contemplations or ineffable delight.... Upon recovering from the spell, the patient generally remembers his thoughts and feelings more or less accurately, and sometimes tells of wonderful visions that he has seen, of visits to the regions of the blessed, of ravishing harmony and splendor, of inexpressible enjoyment of the senses or affections."

A person perfectly familiar with Mrs. White could not have described her visions more accurately. Another high medical authority, in describing ecstasy and catalepsy, says: "It often happens that the two diseases alternate or co-exist. In ecstasy the limbs are motionless, but not rigid. The eyes are open, the pupils fixed, the livid lips parted in smiles, and the arms extended to embrace the beloved vision. The body is erect and raised to its utmost height, or else is extended at full length in recumbent posture. A peculiar radiant smile illuminates the countenance, and the whole aspect and attitude is that of intense mental exaltation. Sometimes the patient is silent, the mind being apparently absorbed in meditation, or in the contemplation of some beatific vision. Sometimes there is mystical speaking or prophesying, or singing, or the lips may be moved without any sound escaping.... Usually there is complete insensibility to external impressions. Ecstasy is often associated with religious monomania. It was formerly quite common among the inmates of convents, and is now not infrequently met with at camp-meetings and other gatherings of a similar nature. Many truly devout people are extatics." G. Durant, M.D., Ph.D., member of American Medical Association, Fellow of the New York Academy of Medicine, etc., etc., recipient of several medals, etc.

This is Mrs. White's case very clearly. Hundreds of similar ones have occurred in every age, and are constantly occurring now. The sad part of it is that so many honest souls are deluded into receiving all this as a divine revelation.

Much in many ways:

1. It is an error and a deception.

2. She deceives herself and others.

3. She teaches false doctrines.

4. She has a harsh, uncharitable spirit, and begets this in all her followers.

5. She builds up an isolated sect, and thus destroys all their influence for good.

6. Her teachings make her people narrow, bigoted, and gloomy. Thus she blasts the peace of thousands of souls.

7. It leads her advocates to deceive. Being afraid that it will hurt them in new places, if it is known in what light they really hold her visions, they keep them back as long as they can and then they deny that it is a matter of importance with them. This is false and deceptive, for they hold faith in her visions to be as important as keeping the Sabbath, and they hold her visions to be as sacred as the Bible.

8. To defend her mistakes and errors, both she and her apologists have to deny the plainest facts and resort to arguments very questionable.

9. To defend her errors, they compare them to supposed errors in the Bible, and thus destroy faith in that book.

10. She rules her whole people with a rod of iron, and dictates to them in everything, even the smallest and most private affairs of family life. She boasts that her work "is to come down to the minutiae of life." Testimonies, Vol. II, page 608. With this idea she meddles with everything public and private, and all the affairs of families, till it becomes, to a man of spirit, an intolerable bore. She meddles between husband and wife, parents and children, breaks up marriage engagements which do not suit her, dictates to all her followers what they shall eat, how, and when; the cut and color of their dress; their business, the disposition of their means, etc., etc. In proof of this let a person read any of her "Testimonies," for they are full of it.

11. Her severity and harshness have driven many to despair, others to back- slide, and others out of the church. I can name many individuals and families whose happiness she has blasted. She broke the heart and darkened the life of my first wife by her cruel words to her. Any one who dares to get in her way must either succumb, be crushed, or driven out. The effort to bind her visions as inspired upon the faith and consciences of the whole denomination has produced continual wrangling, division, and much bitter feeling, right among themselves for the last sixty years. Families, churches and conferences have been divided over them, while hundreds, yes, thousands, have been driven from them because they would not accept Mrs. White's visions as inspired.

12. They produce doubts and infidelity. When those who have been led to firmly believe them finally come to see that they have been deceived, then they are in danger of losing faith in everything and so becoming out and out infidels, or at least skeptical. Large numbers have gone to ruin that way whom I have personally known. Some have gone to the Spiritualists, some to the Free Thinkers, some to the Shakers, some to the Mormons, and some to the world. They have nearly driven Mrs. White herself into infidelity. Here are her own words: "In the night I have awakened my husband, saying, 'I am afraid that I shall become an infidel.'" Testimonies, Vol. I, page 597. How unlike the apostles that sounds.

Mrs. White Becomes Rich

There is no example in the Bible where a prophet took advantage of his inspiration to enrich himself. They generally worked hard, had little, and died poor. But Mrs. White began poverty poor. She says: "We entered upon our work penniless." Testimonies, Vol. I, page 75. But as soon as they became leaders, they managed to supply themselves well. Since I knew them, thirty years ago, they have had an abundance, and have used means for themselves lavishly. They would always have the best and plenty of it. Everywhere they went they required to be waited upon in the most slavish manner. Mrs. White dresses very richly, often is furnished women to wait on her, and all their time and expenses are paid by the conference.

When Elder White died he left a large fortune. He was a sharp business man, and took advantage of his position to benefit himself and his family, and she aided him in it by her revelations. How different from Mr. Moody! Mrs. White is eighty years old, is worth thousands, has a large income, has not a single soul dependent upon her, says that time is about to end, urges all to cut down their possessions, yet takes large royalty on all her numerous books and seems as eager for money as others. How is this?

The last year I was with them she received $18 per week, was furnished two women to wait upon her and all traveling expenses paid. The same year they sold 20,000 copies of Great Controversy on which she received a royalty of $2,500 besides and income from all her other works. Her inspiration has paid her well financially.

Take an example or two of how she used her revelations to make money: In 1868 Elder White had on hand several thousand dollars' worth of old books which were dead property, as they were not selling and were growing out of date. He hit on a plan to raise a "book fund" for the free distribution of books and tracts. This fund he used to buy out his and her old books! When the money did not come fast enough, she had a revelation about it thus: "Why do not our brethren send in their pledges on the book and tract fund more liberally? And why do not our ministers take hold of this work in earnest? ...We shall not hold our peace upon this subject. Our people will come up to the work. The means will come. And we would say to those who are poor and want books, send in your orders.... We will send you a package of books containing four volumes of Spiritual Gifts, How to Live, Appeal to Youth, Appeal to Mothers, Sabbath Readings and the two large charts, with key of explanation,... and charge the fund four dollars." Testimonies, Vol. I, page 689. Every one of these books was their own. The money came and they pocketed it all. I was there and know.

Mrs. White now has forty inspired books. To sell these, every possible effort is made through every channel. She is constantly urging it by all her inspired authority. Hear her: "The volumes of Spirit of Prophecy and also the Testimonies should be introduced into every Sabbath keeping family.... Let them be worn out in being read by all the neighbors.... Prevail upon them to buy copies.... Light so precious, coming from the throne of God, is hid under a bushel. God will make his people responsible for this neglect." Testimonies, Vol. IV, pages 390, 391. So, of course, her books must be pushed and sold while she makes money. It pays to be inspired!

Why I Once Believed Mrs. White Inspired

1. I once accepted Mrs. White's claim to inspiration for the same reason that most of her followers do. I first accepted the Sabbath and then the other points of the faith till I came to believe it all.

2. Once among and of them I found all stating in strong terms that Mrs. White was inspired of God. I supposed they knew, and so took their word for it; and that is what all the others do as they come in, deny it as they may.

3. I soon found that her revelations were so connected with the whole history and belief of that church that I could not consistently separate them any more than a person could be a Mormon and not believe in Joseph Smith. I believed the other doctrines so firmly that I swallowed the visions with the rest, and that is what all do.

4. When I began to have suspicions about the visions I found the pressure so strong that I feared to express them, or even to admit them to myself. All said such doubts were of the Devil and would lead to a rejection of the truth and then to ruin. So I dared not entertain them nor investigate the matter; and this is the way it is with others.

5. I saw that all who expressed any doubts about the visions were immediately branded as "rebels," as "in the dark," "led by Satan," "infidels," etc.

6. Having no faith in any other doctrine or people, I did not know what to do nor where to go. So I tried to believe the visions and go along just as thousands of them do when really they are in doubt about them all the time.

Her last Testimony just out reveals the fact that there is a wide-spread effort among her people to modify her high claims. She protests vehemently and warns them to keep their hands off. Sooner or later there must be a revolt against her claims.

The following from Chamber's Encyclopedia, article, Southcott, is also applicable to Mrs. White and her followers: "The history of Joanna Southcott herself has not much in it that is marvelous; but the influence which she exercised over others may well be deemed so, and the infatuation of her followers is hard to be understood, particularly when it is considered that some of them were men of some intelligence and of cultivated mind. Probably the secret of her influence lay in the fact that the poor creature was in earnest about her delusions. So few people in the world are really so that they are always liable to be enslaved by others who have convictions of any kind, however grotesque. On her death-bed Joanna said: 'If I have been misled, it has been by some spirit, good or evil.' Poor Joanna never suspected that the spirit which played such vagaries was her own."

Just so of Mrs. White. It is marvelous that with all the proof of her failures intelligent men are still led by her. But the case of Joanna, of Ann Lee, and others, helps us to solve this one. All have earnestly believed in their own inspiration, and this alone has convinced others.

The Adventists' Addition to the Bible

"The Bible and the Bible Only, as a Rule of Faith and Practice," is the Protestant watchword for which saints have fought and martyrs died.

The Catholic church has the Bible and - and - something else - an infallible Pope to interpret it.

The Swedenborg church has the Bible and - and - something else - Swedenborg's revelation to interpret it.

The Shakers have the Bible and - and - something else - Mother Ann Lee's revelation to interpret it.

The Mormons have the Bible and - and - something else - Joe Smith's revelations to interpret it.

Christian Scientists have the Bible and - and - something else - Mrs. Eddy's Science and Health to tell what it means.

Seventh-day Adventists have the Bible and - and - something else - Mrs. White's revelations to interpret it.
pi_123494525
Bewijs dat ZDA na alle kritiek, laster, verdraaiingen, ridicuul en beschuldigingen toch al 150 jaar de waarheid verkondigt, bewijs voor een komende internationale zondagsrustwetgeving:

  vrijdag 1 maart 2013 @ 13:16:48 #90
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123497072
quote:
0s.gif Op vrijdag 1 maart 2013 11:53 schreef Ali_Kannibali het volgende:
Bewijs dat ZDA na alle kritiek, laster, verdraaiingen, ridicuul en beschuldigingen toch al 150 jaar de waarheid verkondigt, bewijs voor een komende internationale zondagsrustwetgeving:

Ali, ik respecteer jou als persoon, echter wanneer het gaat om het geloof moet ik de valse leer van de ZDA kerk resoluut afwijzen, blootleggen en vernietigen. Sabbat was een rituele wet voor Joden. Nog maar een keertje duidelijk maken dan. ;)

From "Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914



The Sabbath in Genesis



The Sabbath is not mentioned by name in the book of Genesis, nor till the time of Moses. Gen. 2:1-3 states that God finished creation in six days and rested on the seventh day; and that he blessed and sanctified the seventh day "because that in it he had rested." On this we remark: 1.) The day was not holy in itself. 2.) God's rest upon that day did not make it holy. 3.) God sanctified or made holy the seventh day because that in it he HAD rested. His rest was over and passed before he blessed the day. 4.) As to just WHEN God blessed the day the record does not clearly state. Some contend that he sanctified the day then and there in Eden. Others argue that this was not done till the exodus. Plausible arguments are used on both sides; but the simple fact that the most godly and learned men have always disagreed about the institution of the Sabbath in Eden should teach us caution how we build a theory upon a disputed text so meager in statement and so far away in time. In all fairness it must be owned that the definite time when the Sabbath was sanctified can not certainly be determined from this text.



Smith's Dictionary of the Bible truthfully says: "It is in Ex. 16:23-29 that we find the first incontrovertible institution of the day." Art. Sabbath. Of the argument on Gen. 2:1-3 for the institution of the Sabbath in Eden it says: "The whole argument is very precarious." There is no command in Gen. 2 to keep the Sabbath. We must look elsewhere for that. The sanctification of the seventh day there mentioned is claimed by some to have been by anticipation. As Moses wrote his books after he came to Sinai, after the Sabbath had been given in the wilderness, he here mentions one reason why God thus gave them the seventh day, viz.: because God himself had set the example at creation; had worked six days and rested the seventh. Such use of language is common. We say Gen. Grant was born at such a time. We do not mean that he was a general then, but we mention it by anticipation, using a title which he afterwards bore. So in Gen. 3:20, "Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living." Here is a future fact stated as though it had already occurred. So 1Sam. 4:1, the Jews "pitched beside Eben-ezer." But the place was not named Eben-ezer till years after. 1Sam. 7:12. "Judas Iscariot, which was also the traitor." Luke 6:16. Here a future fact with regard to Judas is mentioned when he is first spoken of, though the act of betrayal did not take place till years later. Just so when the seventh day is first mentioned its sanctification is referred to, though it did not occur till afterwards. We must admit that this may have been so.



Ex. 20:8 says: "Remember the Sabbath day," etc. Sabbatarians claim that this shows that the Sabbath existed from creation. It does not prove it, because the Sabbath had been given some weeks before the decalogue was given. So this may refer back only to Ex. 16, when the Sabbath is first named. Or, which is evidently the real truth about it, it may refer to keeping the Sabbath as it comes week by week. "Remember," don't forget, to keep the Sabbath day.



Then it is now generally held by able Christian scholars that the days of creation were indefinite periods of time. There is much to sustain this idea. Sabbatarians themselves admit this. Thus Rev. A.H. Lewis, D.D., Seventh-day Baptist, editor and author of several critical works on the Sabbath, says: "We apprehend that the creation week was infinitely longer than our week of seven days of twenty-four hours." Sabbath and Sunday, page 8. But this fact is fatal to his definite seventh-day theory; for if God's days were not twenty- four hour days like ours, then we do not and can not rest on the same definite day He did. Hence, we can only use God's week as a model - six days work, the seventh rest.



Sabbatarians think that the fourth commandment designates the identical day on which God himself rested. But this is not as clear as they claim. "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Ex. 20:10. That is, the rest day of the Lord; hence it must be the day on which he himself rested, they say. But this does not necessarily follow. The language simply claims that day as belonging to God. Take the day of the passover: "The fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the Lord." Num. 28:16. Did the Lord keep the passover that day? Hardly. Again: "These are the feasts of the Lord." Lev. 23:4. Did the Lord feast on those days? Surely not. The language simply claims those days as sacred to God and that is all that Ex. 20:10 claims for the seventh day. The revised version gives the idea clearly: "The seventh day is a Sabbath UNTO THE LORD thy God."



Away back there in the dim past, where the events of an age are covered by one line in the Bible, it is impossible now to determine exactly how it all was. Those ages before Christ are compared to shadows, Col. 2:17, and to the light of the moon, Rev. 12:1, while the gospel is compared to the sun. Rev. 12:1. Is it not the safest for us to walk in the light of the sun instead of groping our way in the moonlight and shadows of the past? But the main reliance of Sabbatarians is upon arguments drawn from those remote times of darkness, while in the New Testament they find little to support their theories, but much to explain away.



There is no statement that any of they patriarchs kept the Sabbath or knew anything about it. Sabbatarians say the record is so brief that it was omitted. Their proof then is WHAT WAS LEFT OUT!



Though the record from Adam to Moses covers a period of 2500 years; though we appear to have a full account of the religious customs and worship of the patriarchs, such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc.; though we are told about circumcision, the altar, the sacrifices, the priests, the tithe, the oath, marriage, feast days, etc.; yet never a word is said about any one keeping the Sabbath. This does not prove positively that they did not keep it, but it does show a strong probability against it. This is the sum of what can be fairly said about the Sabbath in Genesis. When men go back in Genesis to find their principal argument for the Sabbath, is it not going a long ways and finding little upon which to establish a Christian duty? Would it not be wiser and safer to build our faith upon the plain requirements of the New Testament?



Testimony of Eminent Men



Justin Martyr, who wrote only 44 years after the death of St. John, and who was well acquainted with the doctrine of the apostles, denied that the Sabbath originated at creation. Thus after name Adam, Abel, Enoch, Lot and Melchizedek, he says: "Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned, though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God." Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 19.



Irenaeus says: "Abraham believed God without circumcision and the Sabbath." Adv. Hoeres, lib 4, c. 30.



Tertullian, A.D. 200, said: "Let them show me that Adam Sabbatized, or that Abel in presenting his holy offering to God pleased him by Sabbath observance, or that Enoch who was translated was an observer of the Sabbath." Against the Jews, section 4.



Eusebius, A.D. 324, the father of church history, says: "They (the patriarchs) did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, nor do we." Eccl. Hist., book 1, chapter 4.



From this it will be seen that the early church did not believe that the Sabbath originated at creation. The same doctrine has been maintained by such eminent men as Paley, Hessey, Bishop Bramhall, etc. Paley says: "Now, in my opinion, the transactions in the wilderness above recited were the first actual institution of the Sabbath." Quoted in Watson's Institutes, Vol. II, page 515. The great John Milton says: "Whether its institution was ever made known to Adam, or whether any commandment relative to its observance was given previous to the delivery of the law on Mt. Sinai, much less whether any such was given before the fall of man, can not be ascertained." A Treatise on Christian Doctrine, Vol. I, page 299.



John Bunyan says: "Now as to the imposing of the seventh day Sabbath upon men from Adam to Moses, of that we find nothing in holy writ, either from precept or example." Complete Works, page 892. So many of the best minds have not been able to find clear proof that the Sabbath was kept before Moses. Others, as Clarke, Barnes, Scott, Lange, etc., think it was. We best leave it as an unsettled question.



Granting that the Sabbath was given to Adam in Eden, it does not follow that all men now must keep it. Look at what Adam was to do: 1st. Adam was only allowed to eat the fruit of trees and plants. Gen 1:29. The first permission to eat flesh was given to Noah. Gen 9:3. 2nd. Adam was to tend garden. Gen. 2:15. 3rd. He was forbidden the tree of knowledge. Gen 2:17. 4th. He was given access to the tree of life. Gen 2:16. 5th. Adam was naked. Gen. 2:25. All this was in Eden before the fall. Must all men now eat and work and dress and do just as Adam did in Eden? No one believes that. Then it would not follow that we must keep the seventh day even if Adam did. This simple fact demolishes the most confident argument of Sabbatarians.



The Sabbath at the Exodus



The first mention of Sabbath observance is in Ex. 16. Many eminent scholars hold that God here changed the day of rest from the original seventh day to the sixth day of the creation week. Others hold that the Jews, during their long slavery in Egypt, had lost the Sabbath and that it was here renewed; while others hold that it was here given for the first time. Whichever position is correct, it is clear that the keeping of the Sabbath was a new thing to the Jews. A few facts are plain. The deliverance of Israel from Egypt marked a new era in the history of the church and of Israel. This is kept prominent all through the Bible. Here God gave them a new year and a new beginning of months. "This month shall be unto you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you." Ex. 12:2. Hence it is very probable that he might have given them a new Sabbath day or one for the first time. The account of their first keeping the Sabbath shows plainly that they were not accustomed to it before.



Dr. H.C. Benson, the eminent M.E. editor, scholar and author, says of Ex. 16: "It is so explicit that we are not left in doubt as to the fact that the Sabbath, as observed in the wilderness of sin, had not been a day hallowed by the Lord previous to that time." Quoted and approved by Dr. Potts and Bishop Harris in The Lord's Day Our Sabbath, page 15.



John Milton over 200 years ago said: "That the Israelites had not so much as heard of the Sabbath before this time, seems to be confirmed by several passages of the prophets." Treatise on Christian Doctrine, Vol. I, book 2, chapter 7.



John Bunyan also said: "The seventh day Sabbath, therefore, was not from paradise, nor from nature, nor from the fathers, but from the wilderness and from Sinai." Complete Works, page 895.



It was new to them. Read it: Moses said on Friday, "Tomorrow is a solemn rest, a holy Sabbath unto the Lord." (R.V.) The last verse gives the conclusion of the whole matter. "So the people rested on the seventh day." That is, thus and for this reason the people here began resting on the seventh day. There is no sense in the language if this is not the meaning. Several scriptures harmonize well with this idea. Thus, Neh. 9:13-14. "Thou camest down also upon Mount Sinai... and MADEST KNOWN unto them the holy Sabbath." This implies that it was not known before. In harmony with this, Ezek. 20:10- 12 says: "Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness." "Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them." When did God give them the Sabbath? When he brought them out of Egypt. Where did he give it to them? In the wilderness. What for? For a sign between himself and them.



It does not say that God RESTORED the Sabbath, but that he gave them the Sabbath. "I gave them my Sabbaths" implies the act of committing it to them, showing that they did not have it before. Surely all these facts are plainly stated. They show that the keeping of this day was a new thing to them and only for them. Deut. 5:15, states that the Sabbath is to be kept as a memorial of Egypt. "Remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence; ...therefore, the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day." This indicates that the Sabbath was a Jewish institution. One reason given why they should keep it was because they had been delivered out of Egypt. Of course they would not keep it till the reason existed for keeping it. The laws regulating how it should be kept show that it was a local institution adapted only to the Jewish worship and to that warm climate. 1.) No fires must be built on the Sabbath. Ex. 35:3. 2.) They must neither bake nor boil that day. Ex. 16:23. 3.) They must not go out of the house. Ex. 16:29. 4.) Their priests must offer two lambs that day. Num. 28:9. 5.) They must compel all among them, living in their land, to keep it. Ex. 20:10. 6.) They must stone all who break it. Ex. 31:14. 7.) It must be kept from sunset to sunset. Lev. 23:32. 8.) Their cattle must rest. Ex. 20:10. No meetings were appointed for that day. It was to be wholly a day of rest.



Seventh-day Adventists observe none of these things. Indeed, it would be impossible for them to do most of them. They would freeze without fires and suffer without warm food. They go many miles on the Sabbath and drive their teams; they offer no lambs; they can compel no one to keep it; nor do they stone those who break it. In the extreme north and in traveling around the earth they do not go by sunset time, for they cannot. Their Sabbathkeeping is no more like that of the Old Testament, such as the law required, than darkness is like light. It shows the folly of their effort to keep an obsolete Jewish day. Nowhere are Gentiles required to keep the Sabbath except such as dwell among the Jews. They were also required to keep the other feast days. Lev. 16:29. All through the Old Testament the Gentiles are denounced over and over for all other sins, but not once for breaking the Sabbath, though none of them kept it. The reason for this must be that it was not binding upon them. John Bunyan says: "We read not that God gave it to any but to the seed of Jacob." Complete Works, page 895.



"The Jewish Sabbath" - A Proper Term for the Seventh Day



Sabbatarians strongly object to our calling the seventh day the "Jewish Sabbath." They ask, "Where does the Bible call it the Jewish Sabbath? It is 'the sabbath of the Lord they God.'" This simple argument has great force with many. But I am satisfied it is perfectly proper to designate the seventh day as the Jewish Sabbath. Seventh-day brethren are constantly talking and writing about "the ceremonial law" and the "moral law," nor could they properly express their ideas of the "two laws" without using these terms. But neither of them is once used in all the Bible. How is this? Will they admit that their idea is unscriptural because these exact words are not used in the Bible? No. They freely use the terms "Jewish festivals," "Jewish sabbaths," "annual sabbaths," "sabbaths of the Hebrews," etc. See "History of the Sabbath," pages 82, 83, 84, etc. Yet not one of these terms is found in the Bible, though they cannot get along without them. It would be amusing to confine a Sabbatarian strictly to the Bible language and then hear him attempt to preach on the two laws and the different sabbaths. "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones."



1. "Sabbath" is purely a Hebrew word never found till the time of Moses. Ex. 16:23 2. The Word Sabbath is never used in the Bible except in connection with some Jewish holy time. 3. There is no record that the Sabbath was ever kept till the Jews kept it. Ex. 16. 4. The Sabbath was given to the Jews. "I gave them my Sabbaths." Ez. 20:12 If God gave it to the Jews, was it not their Sabbath; was it not the Jewish Sabbath? I give Fred a knife. Is it not Fred's knife? 5. Notice how plain the record is that God gave the Sabbath to the Jews, but to no others. "The Lord hath given YOU the Sabbath." Ex. 16:29. "Speak unto the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, saying Verily, my Sabbaths ye shall keep." Ex. 31:13. Who was told to keep the Sabbath? The children of Israel, the Jews. "It is a sign between me and the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL," the Jews. Verse 17. 6. God himself calls the Sabbath "her Sabbaths." Hosea 2:11. "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her Sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts." Isn't it the Jewish Sabbath, then? 7. The Sabbath was never given to any other nation. 8. "The children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath throughout their generation." Ex. 31:16. To whom was it confined? To the generation of the Jews. 9. "It is a sign between me and the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL." Ex. 31:17. It was theirs exclusively, Jewish. 10. The Sabbath is classed right in with the other Jewish holy days and sacrifices. See Lev. 23:1-44; Num. 28:2, 16; 1Chron. 23:29-31; 2Chron. 2:4; 8:13, etc. 11. It was abolished with them. Colossians 2:14-17 12. The Jews comprise nearly all those who keep the seventh day; hence "Jewish Sabbath" is a natural and intelligent designation for that day. 13. Christians almost unanimously keep the first day in distinction from the Jews who comprise nearly all those who keep the seventh day. Hence the Jewish Sabbath is intelligent and proper again. 14. The few Christians who keep a different day from the great body of the church keep the Sabbath which the Jews keep. Hence, again, it is significant and proper to designate them as those who keep the Jewish Sabbath. 15. But Sabbatarians say that the seventh day is called "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Ex. 20:10, and "my holy day," Isa. 58:10, therefore it is not proper to call it "the Jewish Sabbath." Answer: Every holy season, place, person, or article was called the Lord's as "the Lord's passover." Ex. 12:11. Yet we read, "The passover, a feast of the Jews." John 6:4. So it is "the Sabbath of the Lord" in one place and "her Sabbaths" in another. Hosea 2:11. Hence it is correct and scriptural to call the seventh day "the Jewish Sabbath."



Exodus 31:16-17, The Sabbath Perpetual



Here Sabbatarians find three expressions from which they argue that the Sabbath can never end. 1.) "Throughout their generations." 2.) "Perpetual." 3.) "Forever." Thus: "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, FOR a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever." They ask, when will PERPETUAL and FOREVER end? They show that the generation of the Jews still continues; hence the Sabbath is still to be kept.



But this argument would also perpetuate all the Levitical law, circumcision, incense, passover, priesthood, etc. Thus the passover: "ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever." Ex. 12:14. It must be kept "THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS" and "FOREVER" just like the Sabbath. So of the offering of incense. "A PERPETUAL incense before the Lord THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS." Ex. 30:8. Now if the Adventist argument for the Sabbath based on the terms "perpetual," "forever," and "throughout your generations," is good, then they ought to keep the passover and offer incense! This is a fair sample of the weakness of Sabbatarian arguments. The same argument will prove the perpetuity of burnt offerings, Ex. 29:42; atonement, Ex. 30:10; washing of hands and feet, Ex. 30:21; first fruits, Lev. 23:13; meat offering, Lev. 6:18; oil for lamps, Lev. 24:3; fringes, Num. 15:38; pentecost, Lev. 23:21; feast of tabernacles, Lev. 23:41. See also Ex. 40:15; Lev. 3:17; 7:36; Num. 10:8.



The application of these terms to the keeping of the Sabbath is proof that it was to cease. Why? Because in every case where these terms are applied to the observance of any ordinance that ordinance has ceased. Adventists themselves will agree to this in everything except the Sabbath. None of these terms are ever applied to moral laws or duties. Where do you read, "you shall not kill throughout your generations?" "It shall be a perpetual statute that you shall not steal?" "It shall be a statute forever that you shall have no other gods?" This text, then, proves that the Sabbath was to cease with the other Jewish ceremonies.



"Gentile Christians must become Jews, Israelites, and so come under obligation to keep the Sabbath, for the Sabbath was given to Israel forever throughout their generations." This is a favorite Adventists argument for the law and Sabbath. But see its utter fallacy: Burnt offerings, incense, washing of hands and feet, fringes, priesthood, circumcision, passover, and all the Jewish law were also given to ISRAEL to keep forever throughout their generations. See above. Hence the argument proves that we must keep all these as well as the Sabbath! Do Adventists keep any of these? No.



It is argued that the Sabbath must be of perpetual obligation because it is associated in the decalogue with commandments of that nature. But it is also associated time and again with the ceremonial rites, types and shadows which were peculiarly Jewish. Thus: "Keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary." Lev. 19:30. "The Seventh day is the Sabbath." Lev. 23:3. "At even is the Lord's passover." Verse 5. "The feast of unleavened bread." Verse 6. In verse 38 the Sabbath is named with "gifts," "vows" and "offerings." In Lev. 24:1-8 the Sabbath is named with the offerings of oil, bread, frankincense. In Num. 28:9-10 it is classed with the offerings of lambs, meat and drink offerings, burnt offerings, etc. In 1Chron. 23:29-31, the Sabbath is classed with meat offering, sacrifices, new moons, feasts, etc. This fact offsets all the argument drawn from its place in the decalogue.



The Sabbath in the Historical Books



From Joshua to Job not a word is said indicating that the Sabbath was for any one but Jews; hence no argument can be drawn from this source to bind it upon Gentile Christians.



The Sabbath in the Prophets



The Sabbath is not mentioned in Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Daniel, and most of the minor prophets. Nothing is said about it by any of the prophets which can fairly be made to apply to Christians. Several texts are applied by Adventists to our times, but it is all assumption without proof. For instance, Isa. 56 is used to prove that the Gentile Christians should keep the Sabbath. It says: The stranger, Gentile, "that keepth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar." Verses 6, 7. If this proves that Gentiles must keep the Sabbath, it also proves that they must offer burnt offerings and sacrifices upon God's altar in the temple on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, for all those are mentioned as plainly as the Sabbath. Either, then, this applies to the Jewish age and to those Gentile proselytes who embraced Judaism and were circumcised, Ex. 12:48, and observed all Jewish rites; or if it applies to the Christian age, then these terms "Sabbath," "altar," "sacrifice," "my house," "my holy mountain," must be taken figuratively, for Christians do not offer sacrifices, nor have a literal altar, nor go to Jerusalem to worship in that house nor on that mountain.



So Isa. 58:12-13 is boldly applied to our days and to the work of the Adventists in urging all to keep the Jewish Sabbath. But there is not a word in all the chapter even hinting such a thing. All this they assume without any proof and then apply the words to suit their purpose. I did that a hundred times while with them, just as the rest did. I know just how they do it. As last I lost all confidence in such a reckless way of handling the word of God. Then I had to quit using the most of their proof texts on the Sabbath, this with others. Look at it. The whole chapter is addressed to the Jews, "the house of Jacob," verse 1, the "nation," verse 2, and so on. Often in the Jewish age God called them to reform their lax ways in keeping the Sabbath as well as in other things. This is one of those cases. Isa. 66:22- 23. In the new earth "it shall come to pass THAT from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord." This shows that the Sabbath will be kept in the next world, hence it is perpetual and so should be kept now. But it says just the same of the new moons and places them first before the Sabbath. So if this text proves that we should keep the Sabbath it proves we should keep the new moons also. Do Adventists keep the new moons?



Ez. 22:26. "Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things; they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they showed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my Sabbaths, and I am profaned among them." This text they also apply to their work now and to the ministers who oppose the Jewish Sabbath. But there is not a word in the whole chapter that even intimates that this applies away down here in the gospel and to Gentiles. But God himself applies it to the Jewish nation when they were overthrown by Babylon several hundred years before Christ. Read the whole chapter and compare it with Neh. 13:17- 18. See verses 2, 6, 18, 19, etc. "Wilt thou judge the bloody city," etc. "Behold, the princes of Israel." "The house of Israel is to me become dross." "Therefore will I gather you into the midst of Jerusalem." The evidence is clear that it applies there, while no proof whatever can be given to show that it belongs away down here where Adventists apply it. I became fully convinced that it was by such groundless assumptions as these, by roundabout and far- fetched arguments, that the seventh-day theory is sustained. When you look for one plain, direct statement in all the Bible requiring Gentile Christians to keep the Sabbath, it cannot be found. It has to be INFERRED from this; QUESSED from that, and CONCLUDED from the other; all inference, nothing direct. So the Old Testament furnishes no evidence that Christians are to keep the Jewish Sabbath. If such proof is to be found, it must be in the New Testament itself.
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Chapter XIV - The Sabbath in the New Testament



From "Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914



The Sabbath in the Gospels



With the opening of the gospel comes the most glorious period of the church's history. The Son of God himself stands before us clothed with all the authority of heaven. Matt 28:8. God says, "Hear ye him." Matt 17:5. He came to introduce the gospel, "a new and living way," Heb 10:20, "the new covenant," "a better covenant," Heb 8:6,8, which sets aside and supersedes the old, verse 13. Compared to the Jewish age it is a "great light," Matt 4:16, and the gospel church is represented as "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet." Rev 12:1. Much which was before was dark, shadowy and mysterious, is now light and plain. Rom 16:25-26.



A great and radical change in the mode of worshipping God is now introduced. Many institutions of the Old Testament, which were once given in the most solemn manner, and by the authority of God himself, are no longer binding.



Now, where shall we look to find the clearest light upon these old institutions? Where shall we go to learn the real design of them all? Where shall we turn to obtain the necessary rules for a Christian to live by? Shall we go back to the moonlight of the Jewish law? To the starlight of the patriarchal age? Or shall we come to the full sunlight of the gospel? Evidently the New Testament furnishes the clearest, and only authoritative guide for the Christian. The Old Testament can be read and rightly understood only in the light of the New. But it is a fact that Sabbatarians have to go back to the Old Testament, even clear back to the uncertain institutions of the patriarchal age, as their clearest and most certain authority for the seventh day. The evidence from the New Testament only comes in as secondary and collateral. All their strongest arguments for the Sabbath are away back among the shadows of the Old Testament. Take these from them, and the very foundation has fallen out from their theory. I know that this is so, for I have gone over the ground a thousand times. I know just how a seventh-day man feels, and where he rests his confidence. Of the New Testament he is a little shy. But is there any other Christian duty which is plainly laid down only in the Old Testament? I do not think of a single one, though in the past I tried hard and long to find it. On al other points the New Testament is clear and full. In it we have chapter after chapter, epistle after epistle, and book after book packed full of instruction on every Christian duty in every possible phase of it. The duty or sin covered by each of the other nine commandments is directly named many times over in the New Testament. But the duty to keep the seventh day is not once mentioned. We arrange side by side:



The Ten Commandments of The Ten Commandments of the Old Testament the New Testament



1. Thou shalt have no other gods 1. We preach unto you that ye should before me. Ex 20:3 turn from these vanities unto the 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any living God, which made heaven and graven image; Thou shalt not bow earth and the seas. Acts 14:15 down thyself to them, nor serve them. 2. Little children keep yourself Ex 20:4,5 from idols. John 5:21 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the 3. But above all things, my brethren, LORD thy God in vain. Ex 20:7 swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath. James 5:12 4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it 4. There is no command in all the New holy. Ex 20:8 Testament to keep the seventh day. 5. Honour thy father and thy mother. 5. Children, obey your parents in the Ex 20:12 Lord, for this is right. Eph 6:1 6. Thou shalt not kill. Ex 20:13 6. Thou shalt not kill. Rom 13:9 7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. 7. Neither fornicators nor idolators Ex 20:14 nor adulterers...shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Cor 6:9-10 8. Thou shalt not steal. Ex 20:15 8. Steal no more. Eph 4:28 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness. 9. Lie not. Col. 3:9 Ex 20:16 10.Covetousness, let it not be named 10. Thou shalt not covet. Ex 20:17 among you. Eph 5:3



"The duty of men to worship the Lord God only as taught in the first commandment is found no less than fifty times in the New Testament. Idolatry, which is the second commandment, is condemned twelve times. Profanity, the third commandment, is plainly condemned four times. Honor thy father and mother, which is the fifth commandment, is taught six times at least. Murder, which is the sixth prohibition, is found condemned twelve times. Theft, the eight, six times. False witness, the ninth, four times. Covetousness, the tenth, nine times. Now, with these facts before us, how can there be any danger that the law of God will be made void? Another remarkable fact is that the fourth commandment is not repeated in the New Testament, that no Christian was ever commanded to observe it, that no Christian was ever condemned for Sabbath breaking." Time and again, all through the New Testament long lists of sins embracing every possible shade of wickedness are given, but a disregard of the seventh day is never once included. Thus: Mark 7:21-22, thirteen sins; Rom 1:29-31, nineteen sins; Gal 5:19-21, seventeen sins; 2Tim 3:1-4, eighteen sins, etc. How is this? Would the Sabbatarians have left it so?



Strange to say, the duty to keep the seventh day is not once mentioned in the whole New Testament. There is not one single command from either Christ or any of the apostles to keep that day. It is not once said that it is wrong to work on the seventh day, or that God will bless any one for observing it. There is no promise for keeping it, no threatening for not keeping it. No one is ever reproved for working on the seventh day, nor approved for observing it. If disregarding the seventh day is so great a crime as its advocates now claim, it is unaccountable that no warning against it should be given in all the New Testament, not even once. Is all this silence merely accidental? So Sabbatarians have to believe; but the supposition is absurd. Evidently it was left out on purpose, the same as the pentecost, passover, new moons, sacrifices and the like.



Paul, in all his fourteen epistles never even names the Sabbath but once, and that only to show its abolition. Col 2:6. Contrast this with Adventists' literature!



The usual answer is that the Jews were already keeping the Sabbath, even too strictly, and therefore the Jewish Christians needed no instruction on this point. But this answer is not satisfactory. The Jews were just as strictly opposed to false gods and images, and yet over and over Christians are warned against these things. Thus Paul says: "Neither be ye idolaters," and "Flee from idolatry." 1Cor 10:7,14. But where does it say, "Keep the seventh day?" or "Flee from Sabbath breaking?" Besides, the great body of the Christian converts in the latter years of the gospel, were Gentiles, who had never kept the seventh day at all. Why should they not be instructed how to keep it? Why should they be repeatedly warned against all other evil practices of their former lives, but never warned against breaking the Sabbath as they certainly had done before? This was a point which I was never able to answer satisfactorily to myself while I kept the seventh day. The simple and manifest fact is, that it was not intended to bind the Jewish Sabbath upon the Christian church. Hence it was quietly allowed to drop out with the other old covenant holy days and institutions.



The arguments offered out of the New Testament for the observance of the seventh day are few and not hard to answer. Let us examine the main ones.



Jesus Kept the Seventh Day, Therefore We Must



With Sabbatarians this argument has more weight than all others from the New Testament. It always did with me. But now I am not satisfied that, when fairly considered, there is nothing in it. Jesus was born and lived all his life under the law. Gal. 4:4. That law was binding till his death. Col. 2:14. Of course he ought to have kept every item of that law till the cross, just as he evidently did do. On this point Elder George I. Butler, Seventh-day Adventist, says: "He lived under all the ceremonies and observances of the law of Moses, the same as did the other Jews. Thus he was 'born under the law' and subject to it. All his life he was careful not to break any of its provisions, and he never permitted his disciples to do it to the day of his death." The Law in Galatians, page 59.



This is the plain truth in the case. But it shows the utter fallacy of arguing that we must keep the seventh day just because Jesus did. If we observe one institution of the Old law just because Jesus did, then we should also keep all that he did; that is, live just as the Jews did under the law of Moses! For that is just what Jesus did. He instructed his disciples to offer gifts upon the altar, Matt. 5:23-24, sent a man to offer a gift, Matt. 8:4, commanded his disciples to observe all that the scribes taught, Matt. 23:2-3, and was very particular to keep the passover just according to law only the day before his death. Luke 22:7-15. But who thinks now of doing all these things because Jesus did? No one. Jesus was circumcised. Do Sabbatarians circumcise? No. Then why pick out the seventh day from all other holy days and rites and hold on to that while rejecting all the rest which he also observed? It seems as though a candid man must admit that this argument for the Jewish Sabbath is not a success. If that day is binding upon Christians it must be upon some other ground than because Jesus kept it while living as a Jew under the Jewish law.



Mark 2:27-28. The Sabbath Made for Man



The Sabbatarian use of this text is directly contrary to its plainest meaning. Jesus was not giving a history of the origin of the Sabbath, nor defending its sacredness against desecration, now showing that it was made for all the race. No such thought is the subject of his remarks. He is not claiming the Jewish Sabbath as his day, as the day consecrated to himself. It was not as God, the Creator, that he claimed to be its Lord; but it was as the SON OF MAN, the representative of man, that he claimed to be lord over the Sabbath.



Notice his premises and his conclusions: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath: THEREFORE the son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." He says that as the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, THEREFORE he, a son of man, was Lord of it. Why was Jesus Lord of the Sabbath? Because he was the Son of God and had made it? Not at all; but because he was the Son of man, man for whom the Sabbath was made. It is as a MAN that he claims to be its Lord. And this he said to defend his disciples against the charge of breaking the Sabbath. How did it apply? Why, the Sabbath was made for them and hence it was only their servant. They were superior to the Sabbath. Notice the cases he used to illustrate his statement. Matt 12:3-12.



1) David went to the priest and ate holy bread which the law forbade to any but priests. His needs were superior to that ceremonial precept.



2) "The priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are blameless." Verse 5. They would slay cattle all the Sabbath day. Their service was superior to the Sabbath.



3) If a sheep fall into a pit on the Sabbath they would work hard to get him out. The preservation of animal life was superior to the Sabbath. I have seen Adventists work hard on the Sabbath in case of a fire to save even the goods, though the law says, "In it thou shalt not do any work." Would they dare violate the letter of any other commandment that way? No. Then, surely, Jesus himself being judge, the observance of the strict letter of the Sabbath law is not a matter of the highest importance. This is the lesson plainly taught here by Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath. It squarely condemns the rigid interpretation of the Sabbatarians who make the Sabbath more important than man himself for whom it was made.



4) The Sabbath was made for MAN, hence the necessities of men are above the Sabbath law. So, then, this text, when fairly read, gives no support to the sacredness of the Jewish Sabbath under the gospel.



Matt. 24:20



As this is one of their favorite texts we will examine it. Foretelling the fall of Jerusalem which occurred forty years after his death, Jesus said that when they saw the armies come around the city, they must flee immediately or be caught in the city, and perish with the others. Hence he said, "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For then shall be great tribulation." Matt. 24:17-21.



From this it is argued that the Sabbath would continue to be a sacred day after the resurrection. Adventists admit that it would not be a violation of the Sabbath to flee on that day in case of necessity. Then where is there any argument in the text? If their flight had occurred on the Sabbath to save their lives, would that have desecrated the day? They own that it would not. Then the sacredness of the day was not what Jesus had in view.



The context plainly shows that it was for their SAFETY that he was providing, not for the keeping of the say. The proper observance of the Sabbath is not the subject at all. The dangers and tribulations of that time was the subject. Notice four points: 1) Those with child. 2) Those with nursing babes. 3) Fleeing in the winter. 4) Fleeing on the Sabbath. If they had to flee suddenly, in haste, and without preparation, even without their ordinary clothes, women with child or with little babes, or persons in the cold of winter would be liable to suffer or die. So in all these three cases Jesus refers to the inconvenience and danger of their flight; and this is exactly why he mentions the Sabbath. On that day the gates of the city would be shut and so hinder them greatly of not detain them entirely. The gates of all the villages through which they must pass would be closed. The Jews would suspect them and arrest them as traitors. Hence it would be dangerous, almost impossible, to flee on that day. A candid person can see that this is all there is to that text. Of this I became convinced sometime before I gave up the Sabbath, and so I stopped using it.



Matt. 28:1, Mark 16:1-2. "The Sabbath" is the Day Before "The First Day of the Week



"In the end of the Sabbath as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week." "When the Sabbath was past, ***the first day of the week." According to this the Sabbath, after the death of Christ, is still the day before the first day of the week. Hence the first day of the week on which Christ rose was not the Sabbath yet. Answer: All the days in the week, in the month, and in the year, still continued to be called by their old Jewish names for many years after Christ; but it does not follow that they continued to be sacred days, for Paul expressly states that all those feast days, new moons, and Sabbath days were nailed to the cross. Col. 2:14,16; Gal. 4:10-11; Rom. 14:5-6. Take three examples: "When the day of Pentecost was fully come," Acts 2:1. "Then were the days of unleavened bread." Acts12:3. "Went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day/" Acts 13:14. Here, long after the cross, we have the same old names for three of the Jewish holy days, viz: Pentecost. Days of unleavened bread, and Sabbath day. Are all these days still holy days because they are still called by their former names? If so, then we ought to observe Pentecost and the days of unleavened bread as well as keep the Sabbath. So there is no force in the argument from the use of the Word Sabbath after the cross. The resurrection day was not called the Sabbath in the New Testament nor by Christians for several hundred years after Christ. It was called "Lord's Day." Rev. 1:10.



"THE SABBATH" was the name of the Jewish rest day, "which was a shadow of things to come." Col. 2:16-17, but the resurrection day is another day entirely. It is called "the first day of the week," "the eighth day," or the "Lord's Day." It is only in an accommodated sense that it is called the Sabbath now as we use the words "altar," "sanctuary," "temple," "sacrifice," "Israel," etc.



Luke 23:56. The Woman "Rested the Sabbath Day According to the Commandment"



This was after Christ died; hence it shows that they thought that the Sabbath was still to be kept. They were the followers of Jesus and knew what he taught. Answer: But this was before Jesus rose from the dead, before they knew anything about his resurrection, and before they had any idea of the great change which the gospel was to make in the service of God. Their old Jewish idea still blinded their minds so that they could not at once take in the nature of what Jesus had really come to do. Just before this Jesus said: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." John 16:12. So he had not tried to explain all these less important matters to them; but he said that he would, after the resurrection, send them the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. John 16:13. It was not till after the Holy Ghost came upon them at Pentecost that they began to comprehend the true nature of the gospel. So it is no proof that the Jewish Sabbath is binding on Gentiles because the Jewish women kept it while Jesus was dead and in his grave. Turn to Acts 1:14, and 2:1, and we find all these same women fifty days after the resurrection still carefully keeping "the day of Pentecost," another Jewish holy day. But do our Sabbatarians keep Pentecost because these women kept it? No, but they should if they keep the Sabbath because those women kept it. This shows how groundless that argument is.



The Sabbath 59 Times in the New Testament



They say, the fact that the Sabbath is named 59 times in the New Testament is proof that it was still of great importance and should be kept. Well, the temple is mentioned in the New Testament 115 times; circumcision, 55 times; sacrifices, 38 times; the passover, 28 times, etc. Then I suppose we ought also to have all these over in the gospel!



Sabbatarians think they have a fair argument in the Acts. Here the seventh day is always called "the Sabbath," and it may be that the Jewish Christians still observed it, and met with the Jews in worship on that day. From this it is concluded that all Christians should keep that day, too. This is based upon the false assumption that whatever customs and laws of the old covenant were still observed for a few years by the Jewish Christians after the resurrection, must be binding upon the Gentile church now.



A careful examination of what the disciples did really do for many years after the resurrection will show that they kept all the Mosaic law, including feast days, the Sabbath day, sacrifices, circumcision, vows, and the whole Jewish ritual. But they did this as Jews, according to their national law and long established custom. That they did not do so as a Christian duty is manifest from the fact that Gentile Christians were not required to observe these things. Acts 15:19-28; 21:25. "As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observed no such things." Every mention of the Sabbath in Acts, without a single exception, is in connection with the Jewish worship on that day. Acts 13:14-15, 42-45; 15:21; 16:13; 17:1- 2; 18:4. The law and the prophets were read, and Jewish worship conducted as usual. Certainly the disciples could not hold distinctively Christian meeting here under these circumstances. They must assemble by themselves to worship Jesus and have the Lord's supper, and that is just what we find them doing on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7. There is no record of a single meeting of Gentile Christians upon the seventh day, nor of Jewish Christians, except in the Jewish worship.



Consider a few facts as to why the Jewish Christians did not immediately give up the observance of the Mosaic law. How carefully and gradually Jesus unfolded his new doctrines, even to the chosen apostles. To the multitude he spoke only in parables "as they were able to hear it." Mark 4:33. Had Jesus at once and plainly told the people the radical change which he had come to make in the Jewish system of worship, they would have killed him immediately. Even the apostles would doubtless have left him. During all the ministry of our Lord, nothing stands out more prominently than the fact that he was gradually, but cautiously, preparing the minds of his disciples for the great change which his gospel was destined to make in the worship of God. The great obstacles he had to contend with were their narrow views, their tenacity for the forms and ceremonies and letter of the law, and Jewish ideas of God's kingdom. That he was to take the throne of David, subjugate the world to Israel, and carry on the Jewish mode of worship with the temple service - this idea was so firmly rooted in the minds of even the apostles, that they could not understand Jesus even when he plainly told them to the contrary. Hence the Saviour simply left them to outgrow these ideas as the nature of his gospel more fully dawned upon them, after his resurrection and ascension and the descent of the Holy Spirit. Just before Jesus died, he said: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth." John 16:12-13. How often he had to say to them, "O fools, and slow of heart to believe." Luke 24:25. "Are ye also yet without understanding?" Matt. 15:16.



During all the ministry of Christ he never once stated directly that any of the Jewish rites would be abolished, not even sacrifices, the temple service, circumcision, the feast days, or anything. Yet he well knew that all these were soon to end, and designed that they should. Neither the people nor the disciples were then prepared for such an announcement. Hence he left these things for them to learn later. It is in the epistles of Paul that these changes are distinctly stated, just where we find the Jewish Sabbath abrogated.



Forty days after the resurrection still found them clinging to their old Jewish idea of the temporal reign of Jesus at Jerusalem. "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" Knowing that it was impossible to correct their wrong notions by a mere statement, Jesus left them to outgrow these errors as they learned more of the gospel. Now follow them through the book of Acts, and observe how long and tenaciously they held on to all the observances of the old Jewish law, not only the Sabbath, but all the temple service and ceremonies of the Mosaic law. On Pentecost we find them keeping the sacred day with the other Jews. Acts 2. As late as ten years after the resurrection they were "preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only." Acts 11:19. Not a sermon had they thought of preaching to a Gentile till God, by a special miracle, sent Peter to Cornelius. Acts 10. As late as this Peter was scrupulously regarding the Mosaic law of meats. He said, "I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." Verse 14. And he designed to keep right on observing it. And when the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles, the disciples were astonished "because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost." Verse 45. When he returned to Jerusalem, the whole church was in an uproar over it. "And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them." Acts 11:2-3.



Up to this time, then, we find the church at Jerusalem, with Peter at its head, still keeping the Jewish law concerning food, and refusing to eat with Gentiles. Now study the great council at Jerusalem, held over twenty years after the resurrection. Acts 15. Not only did the whole church in Judea keep the entire Mosaic law in all its rites, including circumcision, but some of them endeavored also to force it upon the Gentile converts. Verses 1-19. But through the influence of Paul, this move was defeated. If it had not been that, in the providence of God, Paul was raised up to oppose it, the whole Christian church would have been placed under the bondage of the Mosaic Law. As it was, that council freed only the Gentile converts from obedience to Moses' law. Acts 15:19,23; 21:25. All the Jewish Christians still kept it.



Even as late as A.D. 60, or nearly thirty years after the cross, we still find the whole Jewish church in Judea strictly keeping the law of Moses as to circumcision, offerings, vows, shaving the head, etc. Not only did they themselves observe all these rites of the old law, but they required all Jewish Christians throughout the world to do the same. When Paul went up to Jerusalem only a few years before his death, they demanded of him a pledge that he himself also kept these rites. Read carefully Acts 21: 20-26.



These words show conclusively that the Jewish Christians observed all the rites of the laws of Moses as late as that, which was but a few years before the fall of Jerusalem. All church historians agree that the Jewish Christians continued to observe the seventh day, even for some time after the fall of Jerusalem, as we have seen.



Philip Schaff, the greatest of living authors, in his History of the Apostolical Church, page 118, says: "So far as we know, the Jewish Christians of the first generation, at least in Palestine, scripturally observed the Sabbath, the annual Jewish feasts, and the whole Mosaic ritual, and celebrated in addition to these the Christian Sunday, the death and resurrection of the Lord, and the holy supper. But this union was gradually weakened, and was at last entirely broken by the destruction of the temple. ***The Jewish Sabbath passed into the Christian Sunday." Elder Waggoner, Adventist, says: "Dr. Schaff is justly esteemed as a man of extensive learning, and whose testimony regarding facts no one would call in question," Replies to Canright, page 132. Good. Now let them accept Dr. Schaff's statement and cease their denials.



Elder Butler, Adventist, truly says: "Indeed, it may well be doubted whether a large portion of the early church who were Jews before conversion ever fully realized the scope and extent of the gospel in setting aside those laws peculiarly Jewish. They clung to them, and were zealous for them long after they were abolished at the cross. To Paul we are indebted, through the blessing of God, for the only full explanation of the proper relation of these laws to the plan of salvation." Law in Galatians, page 8.



How much, then, does it prove in favor of the Jewish Sabbath to find that it was still called "the Sabbath," or that it was kept by the Jewish Christians, or even by Paul himself? Just nothing at all; for by the same argument, as we have seen, we must observe the passover, pentecost, offer offerings, make vows, shave your heads, be circumcised, and keep all the rites of the Mosaic law the same as those disciples did for years.



The Apostle Paul and the Keeping of the Sabbath Day



Seventh-day Adventists try to make an argument for the Jewish Sabbath from Paul's example. They count up some 84 Sabbaths which they claim he kept, and they say that if he kept it we ought also. I used to think there was great force in this argument and have used it scores of times to convince others. But I became satisfied finally that the whole argument was a fallacy. Let us examine it.



1. Paul was a Jew, but we are Gentiles.



2. Paul was brought up in all the observances of the Jewish law. Acts 22:3. We were not.



3. The great desire of Paul's heart was to win his Jewish brethren to Christ. To do this he was willing to die, yea even to be accursed himself. Rom. 9:3-4.



4. To win these Jewish brethren he was very cautious not to do anything, as far as he could possibly avoid it, which would prejudice them against him and so cut off his access to them.



5. As these Jews were very zealous in the observance of all Jewish law, Paul knew that he must himself also keep this law if he were to obtain any access to them. Hence he says: "Unto the Jews I became as a Jew that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law [the Jews], as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law." "And this I do for the gospel's sake." 1Cor. 9:20,23. See what he did in the case of Timothy. "Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters; for they knew all that his father was a Greek." Acts 16:3. Paul wanted Timothy to help him among the Jews, but he knew that the Jews would not listen to him if he were not circumcised. So he circumcised Timothy to gain the Jews, though he said, "Circumcision is nothing." 1Cor. 7:19. For just the same reason he kept the Pentecost, Acts 18:21; 20:16; shaved his head, Acts 18:8; made offerings, Acts 21:20-26; and lived the same as the Jews did, though he knew and taught that all these things were done away.



Now suppose it could be shown that Paul always kept the Sabbath, would that prove that he regarded it as obligatory upon all Christians, specially the Gentile Christians? Surely not. To them he wrote very plainly that they were not to keep the law concerning meats, drinks, feast days, new moons and Sabbath days. See Col. 2:14-17; Rom. 14:1-5; Gal. 4:10. He taught with regard to all these just as he did about circumcision, Gal. 5:2, that none of these were necessary, yet he himself circumcised Timothy.



We will now examine every text where Paul is said to have kept the Sabbath. Acts 13:14-15. "He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. After the reading of the law and the prophets" he was invited to preach to them, which he did. This was with the Jews in Jewish worship, in the Jewish synagogue, on the Jewish Sabbath. Paul as a Jew joined them in this, in order to preach the gospel to them. So, verses 42-46, on the next Sabbath he met with them again in the same place for the same purpose. This was two Sabbaths Paul kept. Acts 16:13, "on the Sabbath he went out of the city by a river side where prayer was wont to be made," or rather where there was a PROSEUCHE, a Jewish house of prayer. So the Syriac and Greek. Here he found Jewish women at worship, and preached Jesus to them. This was the third Sabbath he kept. Acts 17:1-2. Paul "came to Thessalonica where was a synagogue of the Jews, ***and three Sabbath days reasoned with them." Here again it was in the Jewish worship among the Jews in their synagogue on their Sabbath. Three more Sabbath here, six so far. Acts 18:1-4. Paul is again among the Jews "and he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Same as before, his Sabbath keeping is every time while he is among the Jews in their Sabbath worship. But how many Sabbaths did he meet with them here? Verse 11 says: Paul remained there in Corinth one "year and six months," which would be 78 weeks. Hence Adventists say he kept 78 Sabbaths here. These added to the six before make 84. But verses 6 and 7 put a different face on the matter. Instead of reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath all this time, he withdrew from the Jews and said, "Henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles." Then he went into the house of Justus near the synagogue. So there is no evidence that he preached in the synagogue more than a few Sabbaths. So their 84 Sabbaths that Paul kept dwindled down to ten or a dozen and all these were with the Jews in Jewish worship. And this he himself explains by saying, "Unto the Jews I became as a Jew that I might gain the Jews." 1Cor. 9:20.



Not one single case can be found where Paul kept the Sabbath in a Christian assembly, nor is it ever mentioned in any way in connection with Christian meetings, while it is said that the disciples met on the first day of the week. Mark this: "Wherever the apostles entered the Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath to preach, it was before the Christian church was planted in such places."



Paul Did Nothing Against the Custom of the Jews, Hence Kept the Sabbath



In Acts 25:8, Paul says he had done nothing "against the law of the Jews," and in Acts 28:17 says, he had "committed nothing against the people or customs of our fathers." From this it is claimed that he must have kept the Sabbath, for that was the law and custom of the fathers. True, but so it was their custom to circumcise, to offer sacrifices, to keep the new moons, yearly feasts, etc. Hence Paul must have done all these. Shall we then do all these because Paul as a Jew did? Hardly. Notice that nearly every argument applies equally as well to all the Jewish law and would bind that whole system on Christians!
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Chapter XV - The Jewish Sabbath Abolished. Colossians 2.



From "Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914



1. We now come to the direct statement of Paul that the Sabbath was abolished: Col. 2:14, 16, 17. "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. * * * Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days; which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." With other Jewish ordinances, the Sabbath was blotted out and nailed to the cross; therefore no man is to judge us about keeping "the Sabbath days." The statement is positive and plain. When I kept the seventh day this text always perplexed me as it does my Advent brethren now, say what they will. Paul directly names "the Sabbath" or "the Sabbath days," for there is no difference, as among the shadows which have passed away.



2. It is said by some that "the Sabbath days," plural number, is not the same as "the Sabbath," singular number, hence is not the weekly Sabbath. This is a groundless objection, for both the singular and the plural numbers are used indifferently for the weekly Sabbath. Thus Greenfield's Greek N. T. Lexicon says: "Sabbaton. The Sabbath, * * * both in the singular and plural." Bagster's Greek Lexicon says: "The Jewish Sabbath both in the singular and plural." So plain is this fact that even Elder Smith, Adventist, is compelled to admit it though he tries to save his theory by excepting Col. 2, and Acts 17:2, but without reason. He says: "When it [Sabbaton] is used in the plural form [excepting Acts 17:2 and Col. 2:16], it means just the same as if it had been written in the singular." Greek Falsehood, page 8. Col. 2:16, is no exception to the rule. In Acts 17:2, the word THREE is what marks the plural. The Revised Version properly renders Col. 2:16, in the singular, thus: "Let no man therefore judge you in respect of a Sabbath day," singular number. Sawyer's translation says: "In respect to a feast, or new moon, or Sabbath," singular. The Bible Union says: "Of a feast day, or of a new moon, or of a Sabbath," singular.



A few quotations will show that both the singular and plural numbers are used for the weekly Sabbath. "My Sabbaths [plural] shall ye keep for it [singular] is a sign between me and you." Ex. 31:13. This is the weekly Sabbath. "Keep my Sabbaths." Lev. 19:3. "Beside the Sabbaths of the Lord." Lev. 23:38. Adventists argue that this is the weekly Sabbath. "Blessed is the man that * * * keepeth the Sabbath," "the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths." Isa. 56:3,4. Either singular or plural, no difference. "I gave them my Sabbaths to be a sign." Ez. 20:12. This is the weekly Sabbath, as Adventists well know. "On the Sabbath days [plural] the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath" [singular]. Matt. 12:5. Here we have in the same verse both the plural and singular used for the weekly Sabbath. "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days?" Matt. 12:10. "Taught them on the Sabbath days." Luke 4:31. "Three Sabbath days reasoned with them." Acts 17:2. "Let no man therefore judge you * * * in respect of the Sabbath days." Col. 2:16.



Who can read this list of texts and not be profoundly impressed that by "the Sabbath days" of Col. 2:16 Paul means just what that language means in all the other cases? Of course he did, and no other reasonable application can be made of it.



3. In the Greek, in which Paul wrote Col. 2:16, he uses not only the same word which is always used for the weekly Sabbath, but exactly the same form of the word used in the fourth commandment itself! I will give the Greek word for "Sabbath days" in Col. 2:16 and other texts where the same word and same form of the word, letter for letter, is used for the weekly Sabbath. Col. 2:16. "Let no man judge you in respect to the Sabbath days," Greek, Sabbaton, genitive plural.



Ex. 20:8,10, fourth commandment, "Remember the Sabbath day (Greek, Sabbaton, genitive plural) to keep it holy." "But the seventh day is the Sabbath [Greek, Sabbate, accusative plural] of the Lord." Here it will be seen that Paul uses the same Greek word, letter for letter, that is used in the decalogue. Hence he surely meant that very Sabbath day. Notice, further, that in each case in the fourth commandment where the word "Sabbath" occurs it is plural in the Greek.



So if the use of the plural in Col. 2 shows any thing, it shows that the Sabbath of the decalogue is meant. Moreover, the Revised Version renders Ex. 20:10, and Col. 2:16, exactly alike. Thus: "The seventh day is a Sabbath unto the Lord." "Let no man judge you in respect of 'a Sabbath.' " Plainly, then, Col. 2:16, refers to the Sabbath of Ex. 20:8-11.



Further, Sabbaton, genitive plural, the form of the word used in Col. 2:16, is the one often used in other texts for the weekly Sabbath. Thus: Ex. 35:3, "Kindle no fire * * * upon the Sabbath day," [Sabbaton]. Lev. 23:38. "Besides the Sabbaths [Sabbaton] of the Lord." Lev. 24:8. "Every Sabbath [Sabbaton] he shall set it in order." Num. 15:32. "Gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day," [Sabbaton] Numbers 28:9. "On the Sabbath [Sabbaton] day two lambs." Deut. 5:12. Fourth commandment again, "Keep the Sabbath [Sabbaton] day." Isa. 58:13. "Turn away thy foot from the Sabbath," [Sabbaton] Matt. 28:1. "In the end of the Sabbath," [Sabbaton] Luke 4:16. "He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath [Sabbaton] day." Acts 13:14. "Went into the synagogue on the Sabbath [Sabbaton] day." Col. 2:16. "Let no man therefore judge you * * * in respect of the Sabbath [Sabbaton] days."



Unless a man is blinded by a pet theory, he must see that Col. 2:16 does surely mean the weekly Sabbath, as in all the other texts where the same word occurs.



4. The only word ever used in the Bible, for the weekly Sabbath is the very one Paul did use, Sabbaton. So if he had meant to name that Sabbath, what else could he have said than just what he did say, the Sabbath days? Why, then, deny that he means just what he says when he could have said nothing else if he had meant the Sabbath?



5. The word Sabbath occurs in the New Testament 60 times. Seventh-Day Adventists admit that in 59 out of these 60 cases it means the weekly Sabbath; but in the 60th case, where exactly the same word is used both in Greek and English, as we have seen, they say it must mean something else! Isn't that remarkable? Hear them: "In the New Testament the Sabbath of the Lord is mentioned 59 times, and those local Sabbaths, which expired by limitation and ceased at the cross, are mentioned once." Scripture References, p. 9. Strange that the Sabbath means the Sabbath 59 times and the 60th time it don't! "Jewish feasts are often spoken of in the New Testament but, not one of them anywhere is called a Sabbath or credited with the nature of a Sabbath." The Sabbath for Man, p. 544.



6. "The feast days and new moons" of Col. 2:16, include all the holy days of the Jews except the weekly Sabbath; hence there was nothing else left to which it could apply but that Sabbath. The entire list is given in Num. 28 and 29.



7. But what settles it beyond a reasonable doubt that Col. 2:16, does refer to the weekly Sabbaths is the fact that exactly the same list of holy days here given by Paul is given about a dozen times in the Old Testament, where we know it means the seventh day.



Turn to Num. 28 and 29, and you have a detailed law as to just what offerings shall be made on each day of the whole year. The first were the daily offerings of "two lambs," day by day, for a continual burnt offering. "The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at the even." Verse 3 and 4. The second were the offerings on the sabbath. "And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot," verse 9 and 10. None will deny that this was the weekly sabbath. Third, in the very next verse come the new moons. "And in the beginning of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the Lord," verses 11-15. Fourth comes the annual feast days. "And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the Lord," verse 16. Then follows a complete list of all the annual feast days, closing with these words, "These things shall ye do unto the Lord in your set feasts," Num. 29:39.



Here we have the law for the daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly offerings; or, those on each day, on the weekly sabbaths, on the new moons, and on the yearly feast days. Now read the following texts, and notice how this list of daily offerings, offerings on the sabbaths, on the new moons, and on the set feasts, as laid down in the law of Moses, is repeatedly referred to in almost exactly the words of Col. 2:16.



1 Chron., 23:3O, 31: "To stand every morning to thank and praise the Lord, and likewise at even; and to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the Lord in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them." Here is a direct reference to the daily offerings, offerings on the weekly sabbaths, new moons and set feasts, just as ordered in Num. 28 and 29. Can any one doubt that "the sabbaths" here are the weekly sabbaths, the same as there? Certainly not.



2 Chron. 2:4: "Behold, I build an house to the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shew bread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening [daily], on the sabbaths [weekly], and on the new moons, [monthly], and on the solemn feasts [yearly] of the Lord." Precisely the same list again, and in the same order, hence the weekly sabbaths are the ones named. Besides, it would be absurd to suppose that Solomon would name all the other and minor holy days, but say nothing about the chiefest of all days, the weekly sabbaths. Every candid man would admit that "the sabbaths" here are the weekly sabbaths, and so they are in all the passages which follow.



2 Chron. 8:13: "Even after a certain rate every day [daily again], offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths [weekly], and on the new moons [monthly], and on the solemn feasts [yearly], three times in the year." Same list and order as before.



2 Chron. 31:3: "The morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the Lord." The same list again, daily, weekly, monthly and yearly offerings, just in the order they would naturally come, and just as given "in the law of the Lord." Num. 28 and 29. But if the sabbaths are not the weekly sabbaths, then the Lord names the daily, monthly and yearly offerings, but skips the weekly offerings. Every thinking man knows that such an interpretation is false. But it is the only way the sabbaths can be saved from Paul's list, Col. 2:16, for that is the same as all these. As the object in these passages is to mention the service of God which must be performed on each of the holy days, it would be absurd to suppose that all the other sacred days in the whole year would be carefully mentioned time and again, while no reference whatever it made to the weekly sabbaths, the most important and the most numerous of all the sacred days.



Neh. 10:33: "For the shew bread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new, moons, for the set feasts." Same list again, daily, weekly, monthly and yearly. Either the weekly sabbaths are meant here, or else reference to the worship of God on the Sabbath is always studiously avoided, while all the rest is carefully mentioned. The evidence is too plain to mistake which.



Ezek. 45:17: "Offerings in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths." Here are named exactly the same days that Paul gives in Col. 2:16, and in the same order, yearly, monthly, weekly.



Hosea 2:11: "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts." Same list of holy days that we have had over and over, where we know that sabbath meant the seventh day.



Col. 2:16: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day, (Rev. Version), or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days." Here, as before, are the yearly, monthly and weekly holy days just as laid down in the law where we know the weekly sabbaths are meant. It is evident that Paul had in his mind those lists of holy days so often given in the Old Testament, where the sabbath is included.



The words "the sabbath days" would certainly embrace the weekly sabbaths unless they were especially named as excepted. But no such exception is made. Hence we must apply the term as it is used in the law, to the seventh day.



Hosea 2:11, is a plain prophecy that all these holy days should cease just as we know has happened in fact; and in Col. 2:16, is proof that they were nailed to the cross.



8. TESTIMONY OF OTHERS ON COL. 2:14-17



Bunyan: On this text, John Bunyan, than whom no man ever studied his Bible more closely, says: "Here also as he [Paul] serveth other holy days he serveth the Sabbath, he gives a liberty to believers to refuse the observation of it. Nor hath the apostle (since he saith, or of the sabbath), one would think, left any hole out at which men's inventions could get." Again: "The old seventh-day Sabbath is abolished and done away." Bunyan's Complete Works, pages 899, 900.



Dr. Scott says: "Doubtless, this last related principally to the weekly Sabbath, which, as observed on the seventh day, was now become a part of the abrogated Jewish law."



The Pulpit Commentary on this text says: "The Sabbath days' referred to the Jewish Sabbath which was always observed on Saturday." "If the ordinance of the Sabbath had been in any form of lasting obligation on the Christian church, it would have been quite impossible for the apostle to have used this language."



John Wesley: "In respect of a yearly feast, the new moon, or the weekly Jewish Sabbath."



Dr. Lee, Methodist: "The apostle refers to the seventh day Sabbath and he gives them clearly to understand that they are not morally bound to observe it. * * * By a 'holy day' and the 'new moon,' he included all other feasts and rests which might be called Sabbaths, leaving nothing but the seventh day Sabbath to be meant by the Sabbath days." Lee's Theology, page 375.



9. That upon which Seventh-Day Adventists rely to save this text from applying to the sabbath is the assertion that there were several yearly or annual sabbath days, and that Paul's language must apply to these instead of to the weekly sabbaths. Thus Elder Andrews, in his "History of the Sabbath," says, "There were seven annual sabbaths," and then he names all the Jewish feast days, as the pentecost, day of atonement, etc., and cites Lev. 23. It is true that in our English version the word sabbath is applied to four of these feast days. But we turn to the Greek, in which Paul wrote, and find that the word for "sabbath" is sabbaton. Is that the term used where the word sabbath is applied to the annual feast days? No, indeed, except in just barely one instance. The day of atonement is called a sabbath (sabbaton) in the Greek. Lev. 23:32. "In the Old Testament Hebrew none of those feast days are ever termed a Sabbath, save the day of atonement." Sabbath for Man, page 544.



The Hebrew word for sabbath is shabbath. In only this one instance is it ever applied to any of the annual festivals. But the word "sabbath" in the English version, when applied to these annual feasts, is from the Greek term ANAPAUSIS, and in the Hebrew from shabbathon. These words should not be translated "sabbath," but should be rendered "rest," as they are in the Revised Version. Thus all these texts read in the New Version: "In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, there shall be a solemn rest unto you." Lev. 23:24. "On the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest," verse 39. So also in the English version of the Hebrew used by the Jews these words are translated rest, not sabbath. Thus: "In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, shall ye have a rest," not sabbath, verse 24. "On the first day shall be a rest, and on the eighth day shall be a rest," verse 39.



Hence, except the weekly sabbaths, among all the feast days and holy days of the Old Testament only one single day in the whole year is ever called a sabbath. So it is not correct to speak of "the annual sabbaths," much less to say that there were seven of them. There was just one, and no more, and this one was included in the annual feast days. Even Elder Andrews confesses that "the annual sabbaths, were part and parcel of these feasts and could have no existence until after the feasts to which they belonged had been instituted. Thus the first and second of these Sabbaths were the first and seventh days of the pascal feast. The third annual sabbath was identical with the feast of pentecost." History of the Sabbath, page 86. By his own confession the days he calls annual sabbaths were all included in those yearly feasts and could have no existence separate from them. Feast days (heortes) is the term embracing all those days, as we have seen. Hence "the sabbath days" (sabbaton) must apply only to the weekly sabbaths. Or, to say the least, this term being pre-eminently, almost exclusively, applied to the weekly sabbaths, must include them any way, whether it did any others or not.



10. Seventh-Day Adventists try to make a difference between "the Sabbaths of the Lord," Lev. 23:38; Ex. 20:10, and "her Sabbaths," Hosea 2:11. They say that "her Sabbaths," were the Jewish Sabbaths, yearly feast days; but that the Lord's Sabbath is never called her Sabbaths. The assertion is contrary to facts.



Why, were the yearly holy days her days? Did the Jews appoint them? No; the Lord appointed them just as he did the sabbath, and gave them to Israel to keep, just as he gave them the sabbath to keep. Hence, from one point of view they are the Lord's, but from another view they are her days. God's, because he commanded them; hers, because given to them. "I gave them my sabbaths." So we read of nearly every sacred institution of the Bible. In one place it is "the Lord's" and in the next it is "hers," "yours" or "theirs," but the same institution all the time. Thus we read of the temple: "Mine house," Isa. 56:7; "your house," Matt. 23:38. Of the sacrifices: "The sacrifices of the Lord," Lev. 10:13; "my offering, and my bread for my sacrifices," Num. 28:2; "your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes," Deut. 12:6. Of the law: "My law," Jer. 6:19; "your law," John 10:34. Now notice particularly that the feast days are spoken of in exactly the same manner that the sabbath is; that is, "my feasts," and "her feasts," "my sabbaths" and "her sabbaths." Thus: "The Lord's passover," Ex. 12:11; "the feast of the Lord," Lev. 23:4; "the sabbaths of the Lord," verse 38; "my feasts," verse 2; "my sabbaths," Ex. 31:13; "a feast unto the Lord," Lev. 23:41; "the holy sabbath unto the Lord," Ex. 16:23; "her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths," Hosea 2:11. These quotations are sufficient to show the fallacy of trying to make a distinction between "my sabbaths" and "her sabbaths." The same argument would prove that "my feasts" and "her feasts," "my sacrifices" and "your sacrifices," "my house" and "your house," etc., were entirely different. But everybody knows better. These experiences apply to the same thing from different standpoints; the sabbaths of the Lord as appointed by him; her sabbaths as kept by them; and this is the whole of it.



11. Paul represents these things as "blotted out," "nailed to the cross." Col. 2:14. It is said that this could not apply to the Sabbath which was engraved in the stones in the decalogue, as you could not blot out nor nail up this. The answer is easy. To blot out and to nail up are only used as an illustration. Anciently a document that had been canceled, or abolished, was rubbed or blotted out, or a nail was driven through it, as now a conductor punches a ticket to show that it has been used up. As an illustration it could be applied to laws written in any manner, no matter what. Such objections are unworthy a candid man. Paul says these things were against us; but it is said that the Sabbath was not against us; hence it cannot mean that. Answer: 1. Paul says it was; that ought to settle it. 2. The Jewish Sabbath was the great sign of Judaism. Ez. 20:10-13; Deut. 5:15. As such, it carried with it that whole system and so was against Christians.



12. It is said that the weekly Sabbath was never associated with meats, drinks, feast days, etc., as in Col. 2:16. This is a great mistake as we have already seen. It is classed with these a score of times. See Lev. 23:2-6; Num. 28: 3-11; 1 Chron. 23:29-31, etc.



13. But it is argued that as "the sabbath days" of Col. 16, "are a shadow of things to come," verse 17, and the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of creation, pointing back to the beginning, therefore they cannot be the same, for the sabbath could not point both ways. But is not this a mere assertion without any proof? How do we know that it cannot point both ways? The passover was a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt, and always pointed back to that event. Ex. 12:11-17. Yet it was also a shadow of Christ. Col. 2:16-17. "Even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us," 1 Cor. 5:7. So all these annual feasts were types of Christ in some way, and yet all were memorials also of past events, as all know. But who would ever have thought of this if the apostles had not said so? If, then, these feast days could be both memorials and types, pointing both ways, so can the, Sabbath. Paul says plainly that the Sabbath days are a shadow of things to come; and one plain statement of inspiration is worth a thousand of our vain reasonings. This is in harmony with Paul's argument in Heb. 4:1-11, that the seventh day is a type. For forty years they have tried to explain away this text , and to show that it really cannot mean what it says; but there it stands and mocks all their theories. The Sabbath is a type, for inspiration says so. Again, it is said that the Sabbath was instituted before the fall, but types could not have been instituted till after the fall. How do you know that they could not be? Where does the Bible say so? Peter says of Christ: "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested in these last times, for you," 1 Peter 1:20.



The revelator says, "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," Rev. 13:8. If, then, Christ before the foundation of the world was ordained to die, then the Sabbath might have been designed even before the creation of the earth, as a type of Christ. Dr. Watson says: "It is used as an expressive type of the heavenly and internal rest." Theol. Inst. Vol. II, page 509. The Pulpit Commentary says: "The Sabbath of the Jews was typical." On Col. 2:17. Dr. Adam Clarke says: "The truth is, the Sabbath is considered as a type." On Ex. 20:8. Even Elder Andrews, Seventh-Day Adventist, says: "When the Creator gave existence to our world, did he not foresee the fall of man? And, foreseeing that fall, did he not entertain the purpose of redeeming man? And does it not follow that the purpose of redemption was entertained in that of creation?" History of the Sabbath, page 151. Exactly; and so the Sabbath as a type of that redemption might have been given in Eden according to their own showing. So, on close inspection, every argument of our Seventh-Day brethren on Col. 2 fails them.



14. By a false and ungrammatical construction of the relative pronoun "which" in Col. 2:17, Adventists try to exclude the weekly Jewish Sabbath from the text. They make the pronoun which refer only to "the Sabbath days," making it read, "Those, Sabbath days which are a shadow." This they say, implies that there are other Sabbaths which are not a shadow, that is the seventh day. But the Greek word for "Sabbath days" is Sabbaton, genitive plural, while the word for "which" is HA, nominative plural, neuter. Hence which cannot agree with Sabbath days, as any scholar knows. "Which are a shadow" relates to the whole list given in verse 16, viz., meats, drinks, feast days, new moons and Sabbaths. The revised version renders it, "a feast day, or a new moon, or a Sabbath day, which are a shadow." Not simply the Sabbath alone, but all these together were a shadow. Hence the phrase, "which are a shadow," applies to each item in verse 16. Does Paul, then, mean to say that only certain feast days, certain new moons, and certain Sabbaths were shadows, while there were other feast days, other new moons and other Sabbaths which were not shadows and so were excepted from his list? No, he makes no exception whatever, neither of feasts, moons, or Sabbaths. All were included, none were excepted. Hence as Paul included every feast day, and every new moon, so he also included every Sabbath of the Old Testament, and that took in the weekly Sabbath as the chief of all, to say the least. So the last peg on which to hang the Jewish Sabbath goes down.



Professor A. M. Weston, President of Eureka College, Ill., says very truly: "If the Sabbath does not look to Christ for its underlying principle, then it is the one important observance of the Old and New Testament that fails to do so." The Evolution of a Shadow, page 16. We know that there was in Eden one type of Christ, that was Adam, for the Bible says so, Rom. 5:14. "Adam * * * who is the figure of him that was to come." Figure is from the Greek TUPOS, type. "Who was the type of him that was to come." Syriac, Diaglott, Sawyer, Living Oracles, and Bible Union Translations. Hence types were instituted in Eden. Therefore the Sabbath cannot be excepted from the types on that ground.



In Gal. 4:10, 11, Paul sets aside the keeping the Jewish Sabbath and all those holy days of the law. "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you." That this refers to the holy days of the old law is proved by his reference to that law, both before and after this text. Thus: "The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Gal. 3:24, 25. That law has ended at the cross as Paul said in Col. 2:14-17. Again: "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?" Gal. 4:21. "Ye are not under the law." Gal. 5:18. So, then, he means the holy days of the law and these included the Sabbath as the chief of all. Look at his list: Days, (Sabbath days, weekly), months (new moons), times (yearly feasts), and years (Sabbatical years). This is exactly the list of Jewish holy times.



To the Romans Paul taught the same doctrine: the observance of the Jewish holy days was not to be regarded. "One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Rom. 14:5.



Dr. Potts, Methodist, says: "That the Sabbath question entered into Paul's reasonings on the occasion is evident from Rom. 14:1-6." The Lord's Day Our Sabbath, page 27. These were the days enjoined in the law for it is of the law that he treats all through the book of Romans. He makes no exception of the Sabbath day, but says plainly " every day." Only a few verses before he has quoted five of the ten commandments, Chap. 13:9, showing that he included the days of the decalogue. It does not avail to say that Paul means only the annual Sabbaths because he mentions eating meat and herbs. I have already proved that the weekly Sabbath was associated with these time and again.



What proves that Paul did intend to set aside the Sabbath, as his words naturally mean, is the fact that nowhere does he ever in all his instructions to the churches say one word in favor of keeping the Sabbath. Time and again he enjoins every other duty, but never a word about keeping the Sabbath in all his fourteen letters. Most of those to whom he wrote were Gentiles who never had kept the Sabbath and hence needed instructions in it if they were to keep it. But not a word does he say to them about it; though he does command them about the first day of the week. 1 Cor. 16:1, 2.



But it is said that this view of Paul's language abolishes all holy days and leaves the church without any rest day. The answer is easy and manifest. Paul was treating of the old institutions which had been nailed to the cross. Col. 2:14. Hence his language has no reference to the new institutions of the gospel, of which there might have been a dozen holy days, so far as these texts are concerned.
  vrijdag 1 maart 2013 @ 13:20:54 #93
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123497236
En Ali voordat je alles afwijst, Canright was een van de higher-ups van het zevende dags adventisme. Hij kende Ellen White persoonlijk, was verantwoordelijk voor veel van de ZDA-les materiaal waar jij tegenwoordig nog je kennis uit haalt. Lees zijn teksten eens eerlijk door. De waarheid kan elke test doorstaan niet? Als het niet waar is zou je zo aan moeten kunnen geven waarom Canright dwaalt. Laat je niet meeslepen door het sensationalisme van Walter Veith, zijn politieke en theologische kennis hebben net zoveel inhoud als het gegeven dat Bassie van slagroomtaartjes houdt. ;)
pi_123499823
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 19:12 schreef Ali_Kannibali het volgende:
Voor de duidelijkheid, wanneer we het over Rome of de Rooms katholieke kerk hebben hebben we het over het instituut en de geest achter het instituut, niet over de gewone doorsnee rooms katholiek die verder ook geen flauw benul heeft waar ie bij betrokken is. Nee, de meeste priesters en bisschoppen weten dat volgens mij niet eens. Ik heb een aantal katholieke vrienden dus ben geen 'katholiekenhater' of oid.
En jij weet wel alles? Echt waar, mijn broek zakt af als ik jullie discussie zo lees. Ellenlange stukken, alles in het Engels. Alsof jullie zelf geen mening hebben, en alles knippen en plakken.
En als priesters en bisschoppen het niet weten, waartoe ben jij van mening dat jij het wel weet? Weet je niet hoe hoogmoedig jij en al die andere protestantse grappenmakers zijn?

quote:
De bijbel zelf veroordeelt het systeem en met goede redenen.
Helemaal niet Ali, want ten tijde van de geschriften die in de Bijbel staan bestond het Rooms Katholicisme niet eens. Hoe kan men dan iets veroordelen?
Het is jouw interpretatie van de geschriften, dankzij de mensen die filmpjes maken en mensen erop "attent" maken.

quote:
Er is geen schaamte om de zaken bij naam te noemen, zonder meteen wapens op te pakken en mensen neer te hakken. Ik citeer hierbij graat Luther:

''Let the minds clash - but keep the fists down''
Dat je geen schaamte kent weet ik. Maar of je er geen mensen bij neerhakt, dat betwijfel ik. Doet mij denken aan al die opmerkingen van Wilders over de Koran. En dan zegt hij ook nog: Ik zeg het enkel over de koran, niet over de moslims.
Dat die twee niet van elkaar te scheiden zijn ontgaat hem, en jou ook.

Helaas pindakaas.
"Bettler aber sollte man ganz abschaffen! Wahrlich, man ärgert sich ihnen zu geben und ärgert sich ihnen nicht zu geben."
Friedrich Nietzsche
  vrijdag 1 maart 2013 @ 15:46:39 #95
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123503403
quote:
0s.gif Op vrijdag 1 maart 2013 14:21 schreef BerjanII het volgende:

[..]

En jij weet wel alles? Echt waar, mijn broek zakt af als ik jullie discussie zo lees. Ellenlange stukken, alles in het Engels. Alsof jullie zelf geen mening hebben, en alles knippen en plakken.
En als priesters en bisschoppen het niet weten, waartoe ben jij van mening dat jij het wel weet? Weet je niet hoe hoogmoedig jij en al die andere protestantse grappenmakers zijn?

[..]

Helemaal niet Ali, want ten tijde van de geschriften die in de Bijbel staan bestond het Rooms Katholicisme niet eens. Hoe kan men dan iets veroordelen?
Het is jouw interpretatie van de geschriften, dankzij de mensen die filmpjes maken en mensen erop "attent" maken.

[..]

Dat je geen schaamte kent weet ik. Maar of je er geen mensen bij neerhakt, dat betwijfel ik. Doet mij denken aan al die opmerkingen van Wilders over de Koran. En dan zegt hij ook nog: Ik zeg het enkel over de koran, niet over de moslims.
Dat die twee niet van elkaar te scheiden zijn ontgaat hem, en jou ook.

Helaas pindakaas.
Je vertrouwen in priesters en bisschoppen stellen. :')
pi_123504421
quote:
0s.gif Op vrijdag 1 maart 2013 15:46 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:

[..]

Je vertrouwen in priesters en bisschoppen stellen. :')
Jezus wijze jongen, ik heb toch wel meer geschreven dan dat? Waar haal jij het trouwens uit op dat ik vertrouwen stel in bisschoppen en kardinalen? Dat heb ik immers nergens geschreven?

Ik vind je vrij naief, die denkt de waarheid in pacht te hebben. Maar eigenlijk zijn het vooral de bronnen die de waarheid in pacht hebben, niet jijzelf. Vanwege jouw knip en plak werk.
Ook het feit dat mensen een tekstje pakken en daarop reageren zegt mij genoeg. Dat doen christenen bijna altijd (om niet te generaliserend te zijn) als ik met ze in gesprek ben. Heb ik een half uur gedaan om iets te typen, met bronvermelding en dergelijke erbij (in dit geval dus niet) en dan citeren ze een zinnetje, de rest laten ze zitten. _O-
"Bettler aber sollte man ganz abschaffen! Wahrlich, man ärgert sich ihnen zu geben und ärgert sich ihnen nicht zu geben."
Friedrich Nietzsche
  vrijdag 1 maart 2013 @ 17:57:27 #97
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123508205
quote:
0s.gif Op vrijdag 1 maart 2013 16:08 schreef BerjanII het volgende:

[..]

Jezus wijze jongen, ik heb toch wel meer geschreven dan dat? Waar haal jij het trouwens uit op dat ik vertrouwen stel in bisschoppen en kardinalen? Dat heb ik immers nergens geschreven?

Ik vind je vrij naief, die denkt de waarheid in pacht te hebben. Maar eigenlijk zijn het vooral de bronnen die de waarheid in pacht hebben, niet jijzelf. Vanwege jouw knip en plak werk.
Ook het feit dat mensen een tekstje pakken en daarop reageren zegt mij genoeg. Dat doen christenen bijna altijd (om niet te generaliserend te zijn) als ik met ze in gesprek ben. Heb ik een half uur gedaan om iets te typen, met bronvermelding en dergelijke erbij (in dit geval dus niet) en dan citeren ze een zinnetje, de rest laten ze zitten. _O-
:) Jij stelde dat als priesters en bisschoppen de ware betekenis van de bijbel niet kunnen ontrafelen, dat dan de gewone leek dat helemaal niet kan. Ik betwist dat standpunt aangezien de bijbelkennis van priesters en bisschoppen bedroevend laag is.

Je hebt gelijk dat ik veel knip en plak, ik ben een echte luiwammes, als ik waardevolle info zie dan knip-en-plak ik dat, waarom tijd verspillen als dat niet hoeft?

Mbt je laatste opmerking. Veel christenen zijn idd niet goed geworteld in hun geloof en daardoor niet goed in staat om je van een uitgebreide reply te voorzien. Maar laten we eerlijk zijn, welke geloofsvisie je ook aanhangt er schijnen altijd haken en ogen aan te zitten. ;)
pi_123508593
quote:
0s.gif Op vrijdag 1 maart 2013 14:21 schreef BerjanII het volgende:
Dat je geen schaamte kent weet ik. Maar of je er geen mensen bij neerhakt, dat betwijfel ik. Doet mij denken aan al die opmerkingen van Wilders over de Koran. En dan zegt hij ook nog: Ik zeg het enkel over de koran, niet over de moslims.
Dat die twee niet van elkaar te scheiden zijn ontgaat hem, en jou ook.

Helaas pindakaas.
Dat jij die scheiding niet kan maken betekend niet dat andere dat niet kunnen.
Question authorities, fuck religion, educate yourself, Viva el individualismo!
There's only one way of life, and that's your own!
pi_123509019
quote:
0s.gif Op donderdag 28 februari 2013 22:30 schreef wiseguy-23 het volgende:
[..]
Nja je moet het wel in zijn juiste context bekijken. Jezus wil mensen redden van de eeuwige dood en brengt daartoe een mooie boodschap in de wereld. Echter de duivel oefent heel veel macht uit op deze wereld en wil voorkomen dat mensen deze mooie boodschap aannemen en zo behouden blijven. Dit zorgt voor oorlogen en strijd etc. Het is dus een boodschap van liefde, maar liefde wordt door Satan niet op prijs gesteld.
Maar waarom laat je die mensen die volgens Jezus de verkeerde keuze maken niet gewoon met rust of overtuig je ze met argumenten ipv geweld.
Question authorities, fuck religion, educate yourself, Viva el individualismo!
There's only one way of life, and that's your own!
  vrijdag 1 maart 2013 @ 19:59:19 #100
194530 wiseguy-23
Alleen God is goed!
pi_123512600
quote:
0s.gif Op vrijdag 1 maart 2013 18:21 schreef truthortruth het volgende:

[..]

Maar waarom laat je die mensen die volgens Jezus de verkeerde keuze maken niet gewoon met rust of overtuig je ze met argumenten ipv geweld.
Het is nooit goed om geweld te gebruiken vanuit het christelijk geloof. Al is het natuurlijk wel begrijpelijk dat als je aangevallen wordt dat je jezelf verdedigd.

Overtuigen moet idd altijd met argumenten en als mensen het er niet mee eens zijn moet je ze verder met rust laten. God wil sowieso dat niemand Hem aanbidt uit angst of iets dergelijks. ;)
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