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  dinsdag 16 oktober 2012 @ 02:41:41 #1
311910 MetalIsAwesome
Hey, kijk niet zo man
pi_118026813
Wat mij altijd geïntrigeerd heeft is dat Mustafa Kemal Atatürk waarschijnlijk een vrijmetselaar was. Wat ik opvallender vind is de aparte rol van Turkije in de wereld, en ook binnen complottheorieën bestaan er nogal wat complotten omtrent de secularisering van Turkije en Atatürk.

Nu zie ik een verband dat Turkije het enige moslimland is waar het een beetje goed gaat en dat Atatürk van Turkije een seculiere staat heeft gemaakt. De complottheoretici zien dit echter als een negatieve ontwikkeling.

Op de officiële site van de vrijmetselarij is het volgende te lezen over Atatürk, zijn privé-dokter zou vrijmetselaar zijn geweest:

quote:
The closing of lodges in 1935

This Grand Lodge gave charters to a total of 66 lodges, mainly in Turkey but also in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Greece, Lebanon and Palestine.

In 1935, the year when Freemasonry decided to hibernate, 6 ministers, the President of the Parliament, more than 60 deputies and many state governors, were Freemasons, Ataturk’s private doctor, M. Kemal Oke, was a Past Grand Master.

In 1935 the English, Germans and Russians transformed Turkey into a vast stage for propaganda and espionage. The Nazi propaganda machine was also stressing the Judeo-Masonic danger. The Ministry of the Interior, Sukru Kaya, a 33° Scottish Rite Mason, in order to curb these activities passed a law from parliament closing all clubs and societies. Freemasonry was not mentioned in the text, but the minister warned his brothers that it would be wiser to stop the activity of Freemasonry by its own free will. That’s how things happened and the reason why Freemasonry was able to recover its buildings after the war.

All lodges did not close. The Supreme Council continued its activity behind closed doors, even chartered 3 new lodges. Craft lodges met at the homes of brothers. The police showed a knowing tolerance to all this, with the tacit approval of the President of the Republic Ismet Inonu, who even gave a little financial aid to the Supreme Council.

The awakening (1948)

Turkey wanted to be accepted to the U.N. The Turkish diplomats were told that Turkey was a totalitarian state, and that even Freemasonry was closed, as it was under all the totalitarian regimes.

The President approached his personal doctor, Supreme Grand Commander (Scottish Rite) M. Kemal Oke, the same doctor who looked after Kemal Ataturk, and told him that the time to resume official working had come.

In 1948 lodges, under the Supreme Council, started to labour in Istanbul and Izmir, and in 1949 in Ankara.

A troubled period started with lodges trying to liberate themselves from the Supreme Council’s rule. The Grand Lodges of Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir were created, and finally those three grand lodges united on the 16th December 1956 to create a totally independent Grand Lodge of Turkey.
Bron: http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/layiktez.html

Dat Atatürk misschien een vrijmetselaar was is onder andere hieraan te zien:



Op een Turkse site vond ik de volgende tekst, maar ik ken slechts een paar basiswoorden in het Turks, dus misschien kan iemand een goede vertaling geven van deze tekst:

Edward Alexander Crowley (1875 – 1947) Patricia Deirdre MacAlpine‘dan doğan oğluna Aleister Atatürk ismini verecek kadar Kemal Atatürk hayranıydı.

-Aleister Ataturk, ünlü İngiliz okultist Aleister Crowley’nin Patricia Deirdre MacAlpine’dan olan oğluna verdiği isimdir. Kendisi Aleister Ataturk Crowley veya Aleister Ataturk McAlpine olarak da bilinmektedir. Aleister Crowley bir Atatürk hayranı idi. 1945’te yayınlanan Oriflame adlı kitabında yer alan Gone are the ghosts and gods (Gidenler hayaletler ve tanrılardır) adlı şiirini Mustafa Kemal Atatürk’un anısına ithaf etmiştir.

Bron: http://antiilluminati.tumblr.com/

Google Translation geeft vooralsnog deze vertaling:

Edward Alexander Crowley (1875 - 1947) werd geboren Patricia, Deirdre MacAlpine'dan genoeg om zijn zoon Aleister Ataturk bewonderaar van Kemal Ataturk te noemen.

-Aleister Ataturk, de beroemde Britse occultist Aleister Crowley's zoon, zijn naam is Patricia, Deirdre MacAlpine'dan. Hij of Aleister Crowley Aleister Ataturk McAlpine ook wel bekend als Atatürk. Aleister Crowley was een bewonderaar van Ataturk. In zijn boek gepubliceerd in 1945, Oriflame Voorbij zijn de geesten en goden (Departures geesten en goden), werd een gedicht gewijd aan de nagedachtenis van Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

Bij het doen van onderzoek naar Atatürk stuitte ik zelfs op bizarre, voor mij ongeloofwaardige theorieën dat hij Joods zou zijn geweest:

http://www.radioislam.org/ataturk/jewish.htm

Hier is een stuk test dat een ander licht werpt op de verwestelijking van Turkije, die vooral door Atatürk plaatsvond, als er vraag naar is kan ik hem in het Nederlands vertalen.

quote:
The history of westernization in Turkey portrays the features characteristic of this movement everywhere else, only perhaps more clearly. In the last half of the 18th century, Ottoman Turks were the first Muslim nation to adopt European inventions, such as Military techniques and printing, a process followed, in the course of the 19th century by the reforms of the Ottoman administrative and legal system on western patterns. The Ulama and the Janissaries, guards of the old order, were against such a move.

During this period, we find that the Europeans were bemused with the ideals of the French Revolution of 1789, effectively guided by the Jacobins/Free Masons.[3] Napoleon Bonaparte's invasion of Egypt in 1798 brought the Master Mason to the heart of the Muslim world, seeding the plant of Freemasonry.[4] Soon the Freemasonic/Jacobin ideals stealthily penetrated the Turkish elite society. Thanks to the so-called reforms of Mohammad Ali Pasha Western “experts" and "ideas" started infiltrating some of the Arab-speaking Muslim lands. The ensuing westernization and modernization of Muslim society gradually undermined and eroded its traditional institutions and civilization, causing serious social tensions and spiritual crises.

In the summer of 1807, the Janissaries assassinated Sultan Selim in Turkey. In 1826, Sultan Mahmud instituted a series of westernizing reforms. The first reforms were connected with the modernization of the armed forces. The Janissaries, a major symbol of the old order, were massacred; help was sought from the English, French and German advisors to reorganize the Turkish Army on purely European lines, a practice that has now been picked up by most Arab governments. In 1827, i.e., a year later, European type schools were opened. The young Turkish students were sent to France for advanced education so that those "French-fried intellectuals" would accelerate the rate of westernization in the coming decades.[5] Finally, western dress was made compulsory for official purposes. All these reforms were made roughly a hundred years before Kemal Ataturk came into the scene.

Secular state laws were promulgated. Thus, within a generation, the complacent attitude of superiority of the Turkish Muslims over others was to transform into a blind, uncritical adoration of all things European. Westernization began to be worshipped as the supreme end in itself. In 1831, Sultan Mahmud founded the Imperial Music School to promote European music, and clothed Turkish soldiers for the first time in western-style uniforms. To advertise this dramatic event, Sultan Mahmud had his portrait painted by a European artist before and after the massacre of the Janissaries. The first painting shows the Sultan in traditional robe on a horseback with a turban and beard. The second painting shows him proudly clad in tight-fitting European dress.

Needless to say, such westernization brought no benefit whatsoever to the country. In 1839, Sultan Abdul-Mejid launched the Tanzimat (Turkish for “Reorganization”) movement -a plethora of reformist measures (to continue until 1876) – as a cure for the body politic of the semi-moribund empire. Ironically, the Tanzimat hastened the decay it was meant to arrest. Some historians opine that by introducing a foreign form of government, under foreign pressure, the Tanzimat threw the country wide open to foreign influence and interference. [Interestingly, the chief minister Mustafa Reshid Pasha, the architect of the Tanzimat, himself was a Freemason.[6]] Soon the Ottoman state came to be recognized as the “Sick Man of Europe.”

In the second half of the 19th century, when Sultan Abdul Hamid became the Caliph, the empire was already on the verge of collapse. He tried to follow an Islamic policy,[7] away from the tides of Turanism and Jacobin-influenced westernization that had became so assertive.[8] But it was too late. Ottoman military was totally in the hands of the Jacobins linked to the Young Turk Movement.[9] (The Sultan was very concerned about the growing power of the Freemasons. He failed to contain them. Some of the ministers[10] were Freemasons, so was Sultan Murad V.[11]) In December 1876, the Jacobinist leader Mithat Pasha forced the Sultan to accept constitutional monarchy. But the Sultan was quick to regain his absolute powers by dismissing the Constitution on 14 February, 1878 sending the Young Turks to exile and executing their leaders, including Mithat Pasha. The exiled Young Turks adopted the Jacobin principle of the French republic, and formed the Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyeti [Committee of Union and Progress (CUP)] as the indigenous wing of the movement in 1889.[12]

[All these happened at a time when most of the Ottoman territories in Europe either were seceding or were getting absorbed by competing powers.[13] Turkey lost the Crimean War. The Empire's economy was increasingly being controlled by the great powers, especially France and England, under the terms of the capitulations. England had also gained de facto sovereignty over Egypt, though it was still technically part of the Ottoman Empire.]

Soon the CUP was able to win over the modernist intelligentsia within Turkey. However, not until 1900, when the Grand Orient virtually took over the CUP/Young Turk party (which was composed mainly of Jews, Greeks and Armenians) and its Masonic lodges in Salonica (Thessalonica - home of the Donme), did the movement assume a serious feature. There were even pressures on the Sultan to curb out the Zionist state; but he did not relinquish.[14]

Through a successful coup in 1908/9, the Young Turks eventually took control over the empire by dethroning the Sultan. Thus began the second Constitutional (Mesrutiyet) period to last until 1922. The CUP became the ultimate power. They resembled the Jacobins from the French Revolution in their republican zeal, intolerance of opposition, and ruthlessness.[15] Islam was shelved and Turkish nationalism, more and more (arrogantly) secular in nature, emerged as the dominant ideology. Zia Gokalp became the father of Turkish nationalism, later to be copied by Antoun Sa’de and Saleh Bitar for Arab nationalism. The Young Turks sought to expedite the political and social westernization of the Ottoman state by applying the Jacobin nation-state model, but on a much broader scale, and with all the force and coercive power it could muster. Their misadventure took the empire into World War I, a decision that completed its dismemberment.[16] And at the end of this period, Mustafa Kemal emerged as the sole leader of Turkey.

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, went much farther than anyone to westernize his nation.[17] He believed that in order to modernize Turkey, the path was an uncompromising one, that being westernization, and it should be done without retaining traditional cultures. So, everything from the past had to go. His program was for Turks to become Europeans. He abolished the caliphate, and changed the country to a secular republic. He closed the Shari’a courts of law and religious colleges; replaced the remaining parts of Islamic law by western civil codes. He moved the capital city from Istanbul inland to Ankara. He instituted a unified secular education system; religious instructions were banned from schools and the Latin script superseded the Arabic script (this was done to permanently seal the separation between the Turks and their religion). He removed the Islamic ban on reproducing human images; statues and pictures were introduced. So was Western music. He ended the ban on alcohol and encouraged the growth of a wine industry. Sunday, instead of Friday, became the official day of rest. Women were given western "emancipation" and strong pressure was put upon them to discard their veils, scarves and other traditional dresses. In 1928, Islam lost its status as the established religion in the Turkish Republic and secularism was enshrined as the state policy. It was a total cultural revolution, imposed by one man’s iron will and by the force of a ruthless army.[18]

From the very onset of coming to power, Kemal Ataturk and his followers - the Kemalists – tried to doom Islam from ever becoming a vital force in the Turkish social and cultural life. Sufi orders were dissolved. Adhan, the call to prayer, was initially banned from being transmitted in Arabic. A Turkish form of Adhan was endorsed, only to be rejected later (because of mass disapproval). Sermons were to be delivered in Turkish, and no longer in Arabic. Even private instructions in religion were disapproved. Official Imams were appointed to preach the official line. Many mosques were closed down. People were not allowed to put on turban and the Fez for prayer. Even keeping beard was restricted.

The Kemalists wanted to reform Islam in the light of Reform Judaism. In this regard, it is worth noting some of the suggestions put forward by Kopruluzade, a disciple of Zia Gokalp: religious service should be made inspiring by the employment of musically trained chanters and prayer leaders and the introduction of instrumental music; the Turkish language is to be used as language of worship, instead of the Qur'anic Arabic. Kopruluzade’s Masonic ideas caused such uproar in the public that the government had to shelve the report.

Kemalism had tried to diminish the importance of Muslim history. It rejected the continuity of Turkish national history and attempted to link the present to a remote period of the past - the Jahiliya - prior to Islam. The Turkish Historical Society founded by Ataturk in 1931 was charged with giving special attention to the study of Turkish and Anatolian history prior to Islam.

What is more troubling with modern Turkey (since 1909) is that its secularist fundamentalist leadership has had been directly linked with Freemasonry.[19] The leaders of the Turkish Masonic lodges are subordinate to those of Tel Aviv and France and Italy, taking directive from them. There lies the explanation for Turkey’s roles vis-à-vis the Palestine-Israel conflict and the Arab/Muslim world.

In his book – “Revival of Islam in Modern Turkey,” Professor Uriel Heyd of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, after reviewing the history of westernization in modern Turkey, asked the crucial question: were the Kemalists able to impair Islamic aspiration totally within the Turks? His answer was a flat ‘NO.’ He said that the Kemalists have had only support within the urban elite section of the populace. In the rural areas things were (and are still) quite different. Even in cities, the adherents of Tijaniya, a North-African Sufi order, demonstrated their hatred of secular changes of Ataturk by systematically smashing many of his idolized statues. The most widespread call for Muslim resurgence since the 1950s had come from Nurcus, the followers of a Kurdish Shaykh - Badiuzzaman Said al-Nursi.[20] [Nursi called for the reestablishment of a truly Islamic state that is based on the Qur'an and Sunnah and ruled by a council of Ulama. His views were unwelcome in the secular state, and he was imprisoned and severely persecuted. Freemasons were also behind the persecution of great Islamic thinkers - Sehbenderzade Filibeli Ahmed Hamdi, Iskilipli Atif Hoca and Suleyman Hilmi Tunahan in the last century. Outside Nurcus, there are quite a few concerned Muslims, e.g., Husayn Hilmi Isik, who have also tried to keep the lamp of Islam burning by educating the masses.]

However, the grip of the Kemalists remains very strong among the Army (dominated by Freemasons) - the vanguard of the Turkish constitution.[21]

The concluding remarks of Prof. Uriel Heyd are quite interesting: "Can Islam last without its holy law? In the Turkish Republic the Shariah has been almost completely abrogated. In spite of this, the Turks not only say that they have remained Muslims but in recent years many of them, in fact, display a growing Islamic consciousness and an increased attachment to religious practices."[22]

The question is: how long will the Kemalists be able to suppress Muslim aspirations there? History says that you can fool a person all time, you can fool some persons sometimes, but you cannot fool everyone for all time. There lies the hope for modern Turkey.

-------

After Words (December 19, 2004):

On December 17, 2004, the European commission president Jose Manuel Barroso frustrated Turkey’s hope to become immediately a member of the European Union. He urged Ankara to “go the extra mile” – including the recognition of Cyprus – to convince skeptics from Christian Europe about her seriousness to join the Union. Turkey has so far refused to recognize the island nation arguing that it is an issue for the United Nations.

Ten percent of Turkey’s landmass is in Europe. It is the only Muslim country with a membership in the NATO. The Turks have been waiting, as an associate member, at the door of Europe for 41 years. Since the days of Kemal Ataturk, they have followed secularism more stringently than any country, including their harshest critics. Then why this fuss about running the extra mile?

This delay tactics by the E.U. could not have come at a more ominous time. Ominous, because it lets everyone to see: what Europe is all about? In recent days, violence against Muslims living in Europe is on the rise. The process, initiated by 9/11, the French ban on hijab and the train bombing in Spain, has been catalyzed by Van Gogh’s murder. As a result of this last wave of hatred, Muslim schools, business places and mosques have been gutted. Europe has repeatedly failed to distinguish between individual actions from mob actions.

It is also nervous time for the Bush Administration that has been trying, no matter how hypocritically, to prove that its ‘war on terror’ is not against Islam, but only against the “bad” Muslims. The decision by the European commission shows that Europe is still not ready for pluralism and is worried about inclusion of a Muslim majority country. Religion still matters. So, the Turkish constitution can be the most secular on earth, and upheld doggedly by its military to the extent of even unseating its elected government, but is no guarantee for admission into the E.U.

It is for the Turks and its prime minister Tayyip Erdogan to reflect upon a similar incident that happened with the Prophet of Islam some 14 centuries ago when the Qur’an cautioned him: “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! The guidance of Allah is Guidance.” (2:119) Rather than looking westward, is it not high time for Turkey to look eastward – its center of gravity and try to reclaim its lost glory?

-------------

Dr. Habib Siddiqui can be reached at saeva@aol.com

* Delivered originally as a speech at the University of California, Santa Barbara on Nov. 19, 1982.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] In so doing, they first discarded the traditional dress (and put on western European dress). Since it was a practice among the Europeans to insult Muslims by distorting their names, the new “intellectuals” in the Muslim world quickly picked up this behavior, without probably realizing their actual nuances. [They started calling “Muslims” as "Moslems" and "Mohammedans," just as one would expect of a trained parrot that likes to imitate his master's voice.] To cite an example, let me refer to what Sir Abdur Rahim, an Indian Muslim leader during the British rule, had to say to a Hindu politician, "You the Hindus have only two enemies - the Brits and the Mohammedans. But we the Mohammedans have three enemies to confront - the Brits in our front, the Hindus on our left and the Mullas on our right."

[2] In this regard, I have mainly, but not limited to, consulted two books - "Westernization of Muslims." written by Maryam Jameelah (a Jewish convert to Islam) and "Revival of Islam in Modern Turkey" (Jerusalem: Magnes Press, Hebrew University, 1968) by Uriel Heyd of the Hebrew University at Jerusalem (a Jewish historian). [The latter book contained a lecture delivered on March 28, 1968 at the dedication ceremony of the Eliahu Elath chair of history of the Muslim peoples (Turkish and Persian studies).]

[3] Most of the monarchs in Europe were Freemasons in the 19th century.

[4] There is some doubt in certain quarters whether Napoleon himself was a Freemason or not, in spite of the confirmation that his four other brothers were. Shaykh Abdul Qadir as-Sufi and many other researchers and scholars opine that Napoleon was a Master Freemason. My independent research seems to agree with their conclusions.

[5] Many of these students, who studied in Europe, became the forerunners for the Jacobin-style Young Turk Movement.

[6] The European Masons, via the lodge, were bombarding Mustafa Reshid Pasha and other leaders of the Tanzimat movement with propaganda for the materialistic philosophy. In this respect, the famous atheist philosopher August Comte, who was close to Mustafa Reshid Pasha, played an important role. Comte tried to influence the Pasha with his anti-religious positivism.

[7] Sultan Abdul Hamid reformed many areas of the Ottoman government, including the institutions of justice, education, and the military. During his reign, the Dar-ul-Funun (The House of Sciences) was established and later became the University of Istanbul. His government built the foundations of the railway system and the infrastructure of telegraphy.

[8] The Jacobin Freemasons were interested in transforming the Ottoman Caliphate into a republic, where Freemasonic ideals would run supreme. Salonica, the northeastern Greek city, was the birthplace of the Young Turk revolution.

[9] However, not all members of the Young Turk Movement were Freemasons, or Jacobin-influenced.

[10] The Dönme were represented by [Turkey’s finance minister] Djavid Bey, the financier, on the Committee of Union and Progress.

[11] Historians say Sultan Murad V was an Honorary Mason. He died in 1904.

[12] Cairo in Egypt and Rumeli (the European lands of the Empire) were the organization's strongholds.

[13] Its land, especially in its European provinces where the Balkan peoples, discovering their national identities, were seceding to form their own states and Russia was encroaching on the Ottoman borders in the East, was slipping from the Sultan's grasp.

[14] See the Diaries of Theodor Herzl where he says, “Let the Sultan give us that parcel of land [Palestine] and in return we would set his house in order, regulate his finances, and influence world opinion in his favour...” See also Sultan Hamid’s letter to his Sufi Shaykh.

[15] An article - in the Paris daily Le Temps on August 20, 1908, based on an interview with Mr. Refik and Colonel Niyazi, two Union party members in Thessalonica - reveals the extent of the Masons' influence on the movement

[16] By November 1st 1914, Britain had declared war on Turkey. On January 5, 1915 the Turkish army was defeated in the Caucasus. On August 29 Italy declared war on Turkey. On December 13 French and British troops occupied Salonica. The Arab Uprising in 1916, the Balfour declaration in 1917, and the Bolshevik revolutions in the same year, brought with them terror on a massive scale. Following the fall of Jerusalem on December 9th 1917, came the destruction of the Turkish army at Megido on September 19th 1918, culminating in the ‘Peace to end all peace’- conferences on January 18, 1919.

[17] It is believed that Kemal Ataturk was a Freemason. (See http://www.calodges.org/no406/FAMASONS.HTM#p)

[18] See, for instance, the book: Atatürk: The Founder of Modern Turkey, by Andrew Mango; Overlook Press, p. 539.

[19] Even Sulyman Damirel was a Freemason.

[20] Al Nursi was a great Mujahid. He was later imprisoned by the State, thanks to the Freemasons.

[21] Whenever the Turkish masses showed slight dissatisfaction with the secular state policy of the government, daring to replace the Kemalists with less secular and slightly Islam-inclining parties, the Turkish army has stepped in and toppled the government, with full blessings from its western allies.

[22] It is no wonder that Necmettin Erbakan surged to power in June 1996 with a platform of Islamic-based, anti-Western populism for a new Just Order and rapprochement with the rest of the Muslim world. He was removed within a year by a military coup, and the Refah (Welfare) Party was closed down. Islamic politicians reorganized themselves in the Fazilet (Virtue) Party, under the banner of Western-style democracy. In recent years, Tayyip Erdogan has come to power. (HS- 12/19/04)
De wereld is er om te respecteren, omdat het ons een plaats en de kans om te leven heeft gegund.
  dinsdag 16 oktober 2012 @ 02:46:25 #2
261324 MPC60
Roger Linn Groupie
pi_118026834
Dit is al een stuk beter, als ik het goed begrijp is de grondlegger van het huidige turkije een engelse jood?
Op maandag 8 januari 2018 14:29 schreef BadderHaring het volgende:
Ajax is geen club. Dat is een bedrijf.
  dinsdag 16 oktober 2012 @ 02:49:42 #3
311910 MetalIsAwesome
Hey, kijk niet zo man
pi_118026845
quote:
7s.gif Op dinsdag 16 oktober 2012 02:46 schreef MPC60 het volgende:
Dit is al een stuk beter, als ik het goed begrijp is de grondlegger van het huidige turkije een engelse jood?
Ik heb nog niet al die teksten gelezen, ik heb het namelijk net bij elkaar zitten zoeken. Waar staat dat hij Engels zou zijn?
De wereld is er om te respecteren, omdat het ons een plaats en de kans om te leven heeft gegund.
pi_118029013
quote:
0s.gif Op dinsdag 16 oktober 2012 02:49 schreef MetalIsAwesome het volgende:

[..]

Ik heb nog niet al die teksten gelezen, ik heb het namelijk net bij elkaar zitten zoeken. Waar staat dat hij Engels zou zijn?
Mooi topic, interessante verbanden die je legt.
  dinsdag 16 oktober 2012 @ 10:12:30 #5
227435 heartz
Illusion 4 Confusion
pi_118029594
Misschien kan Trigger helpen met vertalen?
Maar ik betwijfel of hij zich aan BNW wil wagen. :D
Volg je hart, gebruik je verstand.
pi_118067584
Geachte TS,

Wat kan jij mij vertellen, puur uit jouw eigen bronnen en wat je zelf denkt, over de Vrijmetselaars en hun volgers.

Met vriendelijke groet,

DeParo
pi_118078184
Waarom meen jij aan die foto te zien, dat Ataturk een vrijmetselaar is?
  Admin woensdag 17 oktober 2012 @ 13:07:40 #8
2589 crew  yvonne
On(t)deugend
pi_118078434
Dat hij Joods zou zijn wordt al vaker gemompeld en ik zie op de foto geen vrijmetselaar symbolen?
quote:
0s.gif Op woensdag 17 oktober 2012 03:35 schreef insideispeace het volgende:

[..]

Oke. Het is wel heel wat spitwerk om hier met goede teksten te komen, ook omdat het internet bol staat van tegenstrijdige en vage verhalen. Mijn conclusie is dat er zoiezo delen van de vrijmetselarij satanistisch zijn.

Dan is je conclusie een foute, en deze hele tekst zonde in dit topic.
Yvonne riep ergens: Static is gewoon Static, je leeft met hem of niet.
Geen verborgen agenda's, trouw, grote muil, lief hartje, bang voor bloed, scheld FA's graag uit voor lul.


Op dinsdag 26 oktober 2021 16:46 schreef Elan het volgende:
Hier sta ik dan weer niet van te kijken Zelfs het virus is bang voor jou.
  Admin woensdag 17 oktober 2012 @ 13:10:35 #9
2589 crew  yvonne
On(t)deugend
pi_118078560
En als hij vrijmetselaar zou zijn geweest zegt dat niet echt erg veel.
In de jaren dat Kemal leefde was het in bepaalde kringen zelfs erg chique tot een loge te behoren.
Yvonne riep ergens: Static is gewoon Static, je leeft met hem of niet.
Geen verborgen agenda's, trouw, grote muil, lief hartje, bang voor bloed, scheld FA's graag uit voor lul.


Op dinsdag 26 oktober 2021 16:46 schreef Elan het volgende:
Hier sta ik dan weer niet van te kijken Zelfs het virus is bang voor jou.
pi_118078573
Naar mijn weten is Ataturk geen Jood, maar een atheist. Er zijn citaten die daaro wijzen.
pi_118078624
quote:
0s.gif Op woensdag 17 oktober 2012 13:10 schreef yvonne het volgende:
En als hij vrijmetselaar zou zijn geweest zegt dat niet echt erg veel.
In de jaren dat Kemal leefde was het in bepaalde kringen zelfs erg chique tot een loge te behoren.
Nou dat. Een beetje elite zat (en zit nog) bij de Vrijmetselaars.

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door yvonne op 17-10-2012 13:15:08 ]
  Admin woensdag 17 oktober 2012 @ 13:14:23 #12
2589 crew  yvonne
On(t)deugend
pi_118078699
Ja sorry, ik kan het echt niet serieus nemen:
http://www.alatoerka.nl/2010/06/04/ataturk-was-een-freemasoner/
wat een bewijs :')
https://www.google.nl/sea(...)ceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
en hier word ik ook niet vrolijker van.
Yvonne riep ergens: Static is gewoon Static, je leeft met hem of niet.
Geen verborgen agenda's, trouw, grote muil, lief hartje, bang voor bloed, scheld FA's graag uit voor lul.


Op dinsdag 26 oktober 2021 16:46 schreef Elan het volgende:
Hier sta ik dan weer niet van te kijken Zelfs het virus is bang voor jou.
pi_118088123
quote:
0s.gif Op woensdag 17 oktober 2012 13:10 schreef Ambipur het volgende:
Naar mijn weten is Ataturk geen Jood, maar een atheist. Er zijn citaten die daaro wijzen.
Ook op zijn Joodse afkomst
pi_118088221
Verder lijkt het mij vrij onwaarschijnlijk dat Ataturk een vrijmetselaar was :')
pi_118088748
quote:
14s.gif Op woensdag 17 oktober 2012 17:10 schreef Triggershot het volgende:

[..]

Ook op zijn Joodse afkomst
Hmm.. Zowel Joods als Atheist.. Dat is dan wel vaag, niet?
Heb je een citaat dat wijst op zijn Joods zijn?
pi_118088803
quote:
1s.gif Op woensdag 17 oktober 2012 17:28 schreef Ambipur het volgende:

[..]

Hmm.. Zowel Joods als Atheist.. Dat is dan wel vaag, niet?
Heb je een citaat dat wijst op zijn Joods zijn?
Linkje staat al in de OP : http://www.radioislam.org/ataturk/jewish.htm

Seculiere Joden heb je altijd al gehad.
pi_118089298
Interessant.. Maar ik heb bronnen gezien die claimen dat hij atheist, joods nu dus, moslim (alevi) was.
Ik hou het op atheist. Lijkt mij logischer.
pi_118089319
Wat betreft de discussies en 'academische' onderzoeken over Ataturk afkomst, identiteit en levensbeschouwing worden de gesprekken vrijwel altijd op ideologische gronden gevoerd tussen twee kampen, de conservatieve Islamisten en de nationalistische Kemalisten, helaas hebben ze beiden niet echt hun huiswerk gedaan en zijn ze op dogmatische wijze tegenstrijdige slogans aan het strooien naar elkaar zonder open te willen staan voor de opponents standpunten, ironisch gezien wellicht wel terecht te noemen, gezien het hardliners zijn, maar beide kanten verwijten elkaar van hetzelfde.

Wat wel historisch vastgesteld kan worden over Ataturk zijn een tal van zaken.

- Ja, hij heeft zijn leven voor beide Turkse (Ottomaanse Rijk & Republiek) regimes meerdere malen gewaagd.

- Hij was een erkend en briljante militaire strateeg, wat meerdere malen zijn talenten her en der heeft bewezen, wederom onder beide regimes.

- Ja, hij was tegenstrijdig bezig op sommige punten, door zich te verzetten tegen een dictatuur a la Saltanaat, maar tegelijkertijd wel alle macht en loyaliteit rondom zijn eigen persoon verzamelde. Al dan wel tijdelijk was omdat dit volgens hem moest gebeuren in chaotische tijden.

- Hij was flexibel, was bereid om samen met de communisten te werken tegen de kapitalisten, bereid om met de kapitalisten te werken om de invloeden van de SU terug te dringen, en zelfs bereid om nationalisme en Islamisme te raadplegen voor zijn ideaal, een onafhankelijke Turkije.

- Enerzijds was hij bevrijdend, anderzijds onderdrukkend, gaf meer rechten tot individuele uiting van de Turken, niet meer gebonden aan eeuwenoude Turks-Islamitische normen en waarden wat maatschappelijk werden opgelegd, gaf vrouwen meer rechten a la Westers model, dit terwijl religieuze vrijheden en tradities werden onderdrukt en vervolgd.

And the list can go on and on..

Mensen die zich door hem gediend of onderdrukt voelen zullen logischerwijs voor of tegen hem kiezen op basis van zijn historische beslissingen of wat tot vandaag de dag onder zijn naam, het 'Kemalisme' is gedaan, maar dat neigt zoals eerder gezegd naar een ideologisch meningsverschil wat niet erg vruchtbaar is in een historisch discussie.

Tot 1924 was Ataturk 'de kampioen van de Islam', waarhij al snel tot 'vader der Turken' en 'verlichter' werd gedoopt, de vraag wie of wat Ataturk is, is afhankelijk van naar welke periode je van Turkije kijkt en in welke situatie het land was, per slot van rekening was Ataturk ook een geprezen Ottomaanse Pasha, geliefd door het volk, leger en de Sultan.
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quote:
0s.gif Op woensdag 17 oktober 2012 17:42 schreef Ambipur het volgende:
Interessant.. Maar ik heb bronnen gezien die claimen dat hij atheist, joods nu dus, moslim (alevi) was.
Ik hou het op atheist. Lijkt mij logischer.
Voor de Kemalistische Turk doet het er niet toe wat Ataturks afkomst was, een ding is zeker en dat is dat hij geen 'etnische' Turk was, maar wel als Turk leefde, stond voor vele Turkse idealen van dat moment, gedoopt in een 'modern' en seculier ideaal, daarnaast heeft hij het historische 'Turk'-zijn besef willen doen vermeerderen door het steunen van verschillende onderzoeken, projecten en politieke besluiten, dat hij een jood, atheist, kafir of wat dan ook zou zijn wordt vooral gebruikt in discussies als een aanval naar zijn persoon, wat weer volgens dient als poging om af te wijken van de inhoud wat men wel echt weet.
  woensdag 17 oktober 2012 @ 18:03:14 #21
227435 heartz
Illusion 4 Confusion
pi_118090201
Tof dat je hier even langskomt Trigger *O*
Volg je hart, gebruik je verstand.
pi_118090427
quote:
0s.gif Op woensdag 17 oktober 2012 18:03 schreef heartz het volgende:
Tof dat je hier even langskomt Trigger *O*
:*
pi_118090539
quote:
0s.gif Op woensdag 17 oktober 2012 17:47 schreef Triggershot het volgende:

[..]

Voor de Kemalistische Turk doet het er niet toe wat Ataturks afkomst was, een ding is zeker en dat is dat hij geen 'etnische' Turk was, maar wel als Turk leefde, stond voor vele Turkse idealen van dat moment, gedoopt in een 'modern' en seculier ideaal, daarnaast heeft hij het historische 'Turk'-zijn besef willen doen vermeerderen door het steunen van verschillende onderzoeken, projecten en politieke besluiten, dat hij een jood, atheist, kafir of wat dan ook zou zijn wordt vooral gebruikt in discussies als een aanval naar zijn persoon, wat weer volgens dient als poging om af te wijken van de inhoud wat men wel echt weet.
Je hebt gelijk. Zijn afkomst wordt idd gebruikt om hem in diskrediet te brengen.
Mij maakt het niet zoveel uit, wat zijn afkomst of geloofsovertuiging is geweest. Ik ben van mening dat hij het beste is wat Turkije ooit heeft mogen beleven.
pi_118090718
@Triggershot
Bedankt voor de uitgebreide uitleg over Ataturk.
Geeft toch wat beter inzicht dan hetgene wat ik op school geleerd heb. Dat Ataturk een soort vader des vaderlands was. Zo'n beetje de Willem van Oranje van Turkije.
Dat was hij dus ook wel, maar met kanttekeningen begrijp ik nu.
pi_118097673
Waar ik in ieder geval ineens aan moet denken, is dat tijdens de Ottomaanse heerschappij over (onder andere Oost-Europa) er een zekere mate van godsdienstvrijheid was. Ik herinner me in ieder geval van mijn rondleiding door het prachtige Bulgarije, dat er, in de latere fase van de Ottomanen, gewoon christelijke kerken mochten worden gebouwd en gebruikt, zolang deze in het straatbeeld maar niet overheerste. Volgens mij was de stelregel dat de kerk niet boven de schofthoogte van een paard uit mocht komen.

Maar goed, dat was natuurlijk feitelijk allemaal voordat Ataturk aan de macht kwam (als ik mijn geschiedenisboekjes op orde heb). Het geeft in ieder geval wel aan dat de Ottomanen niet zo vreselijk rigide-Islamitisch waren. Die gedachte heeft Ataturk natuurlijk deels voortgezet door de scheiding tussen kerk en staat aan te brengen in het bestuur van Turkije.

Overigens is Ataturk geboren binnen het Ottomaanse rijk, maar buiten het huidige Turkije en ook buiten wat nu als Islamitische regio wordt beschouwd (Thessaloniki). Althans, dat hebben we geleerd....
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl(...)turk-ontrafeld.dhtml

Hij zou dus geadopteerd zijn. Dat zou kunnen verklaren waarom hij zelf in totaal 7 kinderen heeft geadopteerd?

Hoe dan ook, er is zoveel onduidelijk over zijn persoon, dat vrijwel alles speculeren is.
Cuz I'm praying for rain, And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in. Watch you flush it all away.
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