abonnementen ibood.com bol.com Coolblue
pi_178655324
Iets meer over de echte WTC lead strutural engineer....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Skilling

"best known for being the chief structural engineer of the World Trade Center."

Seattle Times interview met John Skilling (1993)
http://community.seattlet(...)9930227&slug=1687698

"We looked at every possible thing we could think of that could happen to the buildings, even to the extent of an airplane hitting the side," said John Skilling, head structural engineer. "However, back in those days people didn't think about terrorists very much."

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
  zaterdag 21 april 2018 @ 15:02:39 #177
47122 ATuin-hek
theguyver's sidekick!
pi_178655681
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 21 april 2018 14:38 schreef Tingo het volgende:
Iets meer over de echte WTC lead strutural engineer....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Skilling

"best known for being the chief structural engineer of the World Trade Center."

Seattle Times interview met John Skilling (1993)
http://community.seattlet(...)9930227&slug=1687698

"We looked at every possible thing we could think of that could happen to the buildings, even to the extent of an airplane hitting the side," said John Skilling, head structural engineer. "However, back in those days people didn't think about terrorists very much."

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

En dat is ook precies wat er in eerste instantie gebeurde, dus wat heb je hier nou nog verder over te zeuren?
Egregious professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography
Onikaan ni ov dovah
  zaterdag 21 april 2018 @ 15:15:52 #178
47122 ATuin-hek
theguyver's sidekick!
pi_178655822
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 21 april 2018 13:24 schreef Tingo het volgende:

[..]

Niet hoofdontwerper dus.Hoofd bouwkundig ingenieur/lead structural engineer ook niet....

Het lijkt dat John Skilling de WTC head structural engineer was en niet Leslie Robertson.Het lijkt dat Robertson ingehuurd was/is om de official verhaal te steunen/versterken.

In a 1993 Seattle Times article, Skilling was described as the head structural engineer.
Robertson was not mentioned there, nor in an article in the Engineering News-Record
that discussed the design in 1964.
In City in the Sky, Robertson is called the “rising young engineer with Skilling's firm” (p. 159). In Men of Steel, Robertson is referred to during the design phase as “one of the up-and-coming engineers on [Skilling’s] staff,”
Skilling’s “young associate,” whom Skilling “assigned... to help him prepare a proposal”
to the Port Authority’s board. Skilling’s firm was named Worthington, Skilling, Helle, and Jackson.
Clearly, Skilling was a senior partner at the firm and Robertson was his
subordinate.


Hier 'n interview met Mr.Robertson (November, 2001)
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/11/19/the-tower-builder

"That's how people introduced me," he said. "I was the designer of the World Trade Center. Although that was wrong, actually—I only assisted on the team that designed it."
Toch wel typisch dat je dit deel van je eigen bron dan weer negeert:
"Skilling (who died in 1998) and Robertson later argued about who was more responsible for the structure of the towers. "These are guys with big egos, and things got a little testy between them regarding who was ultimately responsible for the design," says Jon Magnusson, the chairman and C.E.O. of the Seattle-based firm, which is now called Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire. "Skilling said, 'It was me,' Robertson said, 'It was me,' but I think the truth is that both of them made a significant contribution.""
Egregious professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography
Onikaan ni ov dovah
pi_178656741
quote:
1s.gif Op donderdag 19 april 2018 14:54 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

Nog steeds de hoofdontwerper...
Oh? En wie was de 'hoofdontwerper' precies ?
Niet Leslie Robertson he?
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178656779
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 21 april 2018 15:15 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

Toch wel typisch dat je dit deel van je eigen bron dan weer negeert:
"Skilling (who died in 1998) and Robertson later argued about who was more responsible for the structure of the towers. "These are guys with big egos, and things got a little testy between them regarding who was ultimately responsible for the design," says Jon Magnusson, the chairman and C.E.O. of the Seattle-based firm, which is now called Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire. "Skilling said, 'It was me,' Robertson said, 'It was me,' but I think the truth is that both of them made a significant contribution.""
Ook volgens Arch Daily, the lead structural engineer John Skilling was......

https://www.archdaily.com(...)-emery-roth-and-sons

Architect in Charge Minoru Yamasaki Hoofdontwerper dus
Worthington, Skilling, Helle & Jackson: Structural Engineering

Niks over Leslie Robertson.

https://www.archdaily.com/
In 2008, while working as architects, our founders realized that there wasn't a place for architects to research and see good, up-to-date examples of projects and architectural products. So we decided to build it.
What started as a platform to collect the most important information to help architects create better architecture, became a fast growing technology company that delivers inspiration, tools and knowledge to the 10 million architects that visit and use ArchDaily each month.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178656851
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 21 april 2018 15:15 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

Toch wel typisch dat je dit deel van je eigen bron dan weer negeert:
"Skilling (who died in 1998) and Robertson later argued about who was more responsible for the structure of the towers. "These are guys with big egos, and things got a little testy between them regarding who was ultimately responsible for the design," says Jon Magnusson, the chairman and C.E.O. of the Seattle-based firm, which is now called Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire. "Skilling said, 'It was me,' Robertson said, 'It was me,' but I think the truth is that both of them made a significant contribution.""
Fortunately for Mr. Robertson, Mr.Skilling (his boss at the time) is not around to defend himself.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178656914
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 21 april 2018 15:02 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

En dat is ook precies wat er in eerste instantie gebeurde, dus wat heb je hier nou nog verder over te zeuren?
Ik zeur niet. Am merely pointing out that you are mistaken or you are being dishonest and making things up as you go along in order to try and strengthen your point of view.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178656931
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 21 april 2018 15:02 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

En dat is ook precies wat er in eerste instantie gebeurde, dus wat heb je hier nou nog verder over te zeuren?
Wat voor 'eerste instantie' bedoel je precies?
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
  zaterdag 21 april 2018 @ 17:31:50 #184
47122 ATuin-hek
theguyver's sidekick!
pi_178657707
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 21 april 2018 16:35 schreef Tingo het volgende:

[..]

Ik zeur niet. Am merely pointing out that you are mistaken or you are being dishonest and making things up as you go along in order to try and strengthen your point of view.
Hoe doe ik dat dan? :? Zo duidelijk is het verschil in status tussen die twee niet (diezelfde bron noemt ze ook partners, dat negeer je ook), en ze spreken elkaar niet tegen, dus welk punt denk je nou precies te maken hier?
Egregious professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography
Onikaan ni ov dovah
pi_178670710
quote:
0s.gif Op zaterdag 21 april 2018 17:31 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

Hoe doe ik dat dan? :? Zo duidelijk is het verschil in status tussen die twee niet (diezelfde bron noemt ze ook partners, dat negeer je ook), en ze spreken elkaar niet tegen, dus welk punt denk je nou precies te maken hier?
Ik denk dat er 'n hele grote verschil in de status van die twee was.
Ik negeer niks. Wat wil je dat ik de hele artikel hier posten?
Anyhoos, put your handbag away.

Robertson eerst voor 'n aantal jaren 'n werknemer van Skillings z'n bedrijf was. Skilling was his boss.Skilling veel meer ervaring dan Robertson had. Robertsons z'n degree in science was, Skilling in civil engineering (+ meer dan 20 jaar werk ervaring)
Twin Towers project Robertson z'n eerste high-rise project was.Skilling al jaren als een van de beste structural engineers/designers ter wereld gezien was.
Sorry ff in 't Engels omdat 't wat makkelijker is...
Robertson claims in quite recent interviews that he can't remember anything about if they calculated the fuel load of the planes, which makes one wonder if he was listening in class, or he has convenient memory loss because he doesn't want to say anything contradictory to the officlal story, or he is simply lying.

Nogmaals: In 1993 Slkilling said:
"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

Skilling does not say anything about the plane going through the steel structure.He says that the fuel from the plane would be 'dumped inside' the building. Understandable, as there would be hundreds of windows shattered around the impact zone (which we did not see in the silly fake footage) where fuel 'would dump into the building' but, as Skilling says, the building structure would still be there.

Excellent John Skilling biography by Marga Rose Hancock
http://www.historylink.org/File/9632

In the above biography, there is a lot about Skillings' professional collaborations and many accolades from colleagues in the architectural world, however Robertson is mentioned by name only - there is nothing written about his contribution to the Twin Towers project.
I think Robertsons profile on the project has been blown-up out of proportion and he is a post-9/11 propaganda mouth piece for the official story. It seems that by most accounts from reputable sources, John Skilling was the main man (also referred to as Man of Steel) and it could well be that Robertson was little more than one of Skilling's lackeys.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
  zondag 22 april 2018 @ 13:56:08 #186
47122 ATuin-hek
theguyver's sidekick!
pi_178672818
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 22 april 2018 11:54 schreef Tingo het volgende:

[..]

Ik denk dat er 'n hele grote verschil in de status van die twee was.
Ik negeer niks. Wat wil je dat ik de hele artikel hier posten?
Anyhoos, put your handbag away.

Robertson eerst voor 'n aantal jaren 'n werknemer van Skillings z'n bedrijf was. Skilling was his boss.Skilling veel meer ervaring dan Robertson had. Robertsons z'n degree in science was, Skilling in civil engineering (+ meer dan 20 jaar werk ervaring)
Twin Towers project Robertson z'n eerste high-rise project was.Skilling al jaren als een van de beste structural engineers/designers ter wereld gezien was.
Sorry ff in 't Engels omdat 't wat makkelijker is...
Robertson claims in quite recent interviews that he can't remember anything about if they calculated the fuel load of the planes, which makes one wonder if he was listening in class, or he has convenient memory loss because he doesn't want to say anything contradictory to the officlal story, or he is simply lying.

Nogmaals: In 1993 Slkilling said:
"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

Skilling does not say anything about the plane going through the steel structure.He says that the fuel from the plane would be 'dumped inside' the building. Understandable, as there would be hundreds of windows shattered around the impact zone (which we did not see in the silly fake footage) where fuel 'would dump into the building' but, as Skilling says, the building structure would still be there.

Excellent John Skilling biography by Marga Rose Hancock
http://www.historylink.org/File/9632

In the above biography, there is a lot about Skillings' professional collaborations and many accolades from colleagues in the architectural world, however Robertson is mentioned by name only - there is nothing written about his contribution to the Twin Towers project.
I think Robertsons profile on the project has been blown-up out of proportion and he is a post-9/11 propaganda mouth piece for the official story. It seems that by most accounts from reputable sources, John Skilling was the main man (also referred to as Man of Steel) and it could well be that Robertson was little more than one of Skilling's lackeys.
Weer veel geblaat maar je adressed mijn punten nog steeds niet...
Egregious professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography
Onikaan ni ov dovah
pi_178672894
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 22 april 2018 13:56 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

Weer veel geblaat maar je adressed mijn punten nog steeds niet...
Geblaat?
Sorry - welke punten?
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178672948
Nog meer over Robertson....

Volgens dit artikel, in 't begin van 't project Robertson als project manager ingehuurd was

https://www.enr.com/blogs(...)superheroes-and-more

John Skilling died in 1998. Unlike Les Robertson, who became the WTC’s project manager and segued after construction into the role of structural engineer for the complex, Skilling was spared witness to the destruction of 9/11.

En hier in dit artikel hij (Robertson) 'put in charge of the project' was. Volgens mij dat niet hetzelfde als 'head, lead, chief structural engineer is.

http://www.wallflowerdispatches.com/?p=43

"He (Leslie Robertson) was 34 when he was put in charge of the project. Today, he is probably the only person alive who was actively involved in building the Twin Towers. “John Skilling (of the original structural engineering firm) got us the job."

Me : Robertson doesn't have qualifications in engineering, architecture or design...honourary degrees aren't quite the same as the real thing.

Education
1952 Bachelor of Science, University of California, Berkeley
1986 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
1989 Honorary degree, Doctor of Science, University of Western Ontario
1991 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, Lehigh University
2003 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, University of Notre Dame
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
  zondag 22 april 2018 @ 14:11:41 #189
279682 theguyver
Sidekick van A tuin-hek!
pi_178673086
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 22 april 2018 14:04 schreef Tingo het volgende:
Nog meer over Robertson....

Volgens dit artikel, in 't begin van 't project Robertson als project manager ingehuurd was

https://www.enr.com/blogs(...)superheroes-and-more

John Skilling died in 1998. Unlike Les Robertson, who became the WTC’s project manager and segued after construction into the role of structural engineer for the complex, Skilling was spared witness to the destruction of 9/11.

En hier in dit artikel hij (Robertson) 'put in charge of the project' was. Volgens mij dat niet hetzelfde als 'head, lead, chief structural engineer is.

http://www.wallflowerdispatches.com/?p=43

"He (Leslie Robertson) was 34 when he was put in charge of the project. Today, he is probably the only person alive who was actively involved in building the Twin Towers. “John Skilling (of the original structural engineering firm) got us the job."

Me : Robertson doesn't have qualifications in engineering, architecture or design...honourary degrees aren't quite the same as the real thing.

Education
1952 Bachelor of Science, University of California, Berkeley
1986 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
1989 Honorary degree, Doctor of Science, University of Western Ontario
1991 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, Lehigh University
2003 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, University of Notre Dame
En hoeveel heb jij in de psychiatrie, film editten en acteerschool?
Pope John Paul II shot first!!!
  zondag 22 april 2018 @ 14:19:31 #190
47122 ATuin-hek
theguyver's sidekick!
pi_178673258
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 22 april 2018 14:04 schreef Tingo het volgende:
Nog meer over Robertson....

Volgens dit artikel, in 't begin van 't project Robertson als project manager ingehuurd was

https://www.enr.com/blogs(...)superheroes-and-more

John Skilling died in 1998. Unlike Les Robertson, who became the WTC’s project manager and segued after construction into the role of structural engineer for the complex, Skilling was spared witness to the destruction of 9/11.

En hier in dit artikel hij (Robertson) 'put in charge of the project' was. Volgens mij dat niet hetzelfde als 'head, lead, chief structural engineer is.

http://www.wallflowerdispatches.com/?p=43

"He (Leslie Robertson) was 34 when he was put in charge of the project. Today, he is probably the only person alive who was actively involved in building the Twin Towers. “John Skilling (of the original structural engineering firm) got us the job."

Me : Robertson doesn't have qualifications in engineering, architecture or design...honourary degrees aren't quite the same as the real thing.

Education
1952 Bachelor of Science, University of California, Berkeley
1986 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
1989 Honorary degree, Doctor of Science, University of Western Ontario
1991 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, Lehigh University
2003 Honorary degree, Doctor of Engineering, University of Notre Dame
En nog steeds spreek je je eigen bronnen tegen en quote je selectief. Maar als we dat even negeren, welk punt denk je precies te maken? Wat zegt dit alles over hoe de gebouwen hadden moeten reageren op de 911 767's, en hoe spreekt dit de officiŽle lezing tegen?
Egregious professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography
Onikaan ni ov dovah
pi_178712193
quote:
1s.gif Op zondag 22 april 2018 14:11 schreef theguyver het volgende:

[..]

En hoeveel heb jij in de psychiatrie, film editten en acteerschool?
You need a fucking psychiatrist by the sound of it.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178712249
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 22 april 2018 14:19 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

En nog steeds spreek je je eigen bronnen tegen en quote je selectief. Maar als we dat even negeren, welk punt denk je precies te maken? Wat zegt dit alles over hoe de gebouwen hadden moeten reageren op de 911 767's, en hoe spreekt dit de officiŽle lezing tegen?
Robertson role and contribution to the design and construction of the WTC have been exaggerated in an attempt to make his statements about 9/11 more credible.
He is telling lies. He is employed as a mouthpiece for post 9/11 official story propaganda.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
  dinsdag 24 april 2018 @ 13:31:30 #193
47122 ATuin-hek
theguyver's sidekick!
pi_178712357
quote:
0s.gif Op dinsdag 24 april 2018 13:23 schreef Tingo het volgende:

[..]

Robertson role and contribution to the design and construction of the WTC have been exaggerated in an attempt to make his statements about 9/11 more credible.
He is telling lies. He is employed as a mouthpiece for post 9/11 official story propaganda.
En de zin erna?
Egregious professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography
Onikaan ni ov dovah
pi_178721877
quote:
0s.gif Op zondag 22 april 2018 14:19 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

En nog steeds spreek je je eigen bronnen tegen en quote je selectief. Maar als we dat even negeren, welk punt denk je precies te maken? Wat zegt dit alles over hoe de gebouwen hadden moeten reageren op de 911 767's, en hoe spreekt dit de officiŽle lezing tegen?
Why is Leslie Robertson not telling us the truth?
Do you still regard the man as a reliable, trustworthy source of information?
If you read and understand this short statement from John Skilling (the real chief structural engineer) properly,you would also understand that what he is describing is very much in contradiction to what your posted 'hoofdontwerper' source (Leslie Robertson) says and what we saw on TV that day....

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

In no way does he even imply that the plane itself would be in the building with the 'dumped fuel'.

[ Bericht 0% gewijzigd door Tingo op 24-04-2018 21:43:06 ]
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178722450

A chief structural engineer who didn't know if they did any calculations on the fuel loads of crashing planes?

Dat heeft John Sklling wel gedaan. En dan Robertson, volgens sommige bronnen de zogenaamde chief/lead/head structural engineer, wist er niks over?

“The fuel load of a 767 was enormous compared to that of a 707” BULLSHIT
“It (the 9/11 767) was a fully-fuelled airplane compared to the 707, which was a landing aircraft” BULLSHIT
“The fuel load was not considered in the design and indeed I don't know how it could've been considered”

Talk about wishy-washy!
Fucking hilarious! He's almost smiling about it himself.
Ik geloof er niks van de gast.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178722489
Wij zijn vertelt dat er 5 of 6 news/TV helikopters tijdens 9/11 in de lucht waren.
Opmerkelijk dat er geen aerial beelden van al die duizenden mensen die de toren ge-evacueerd hebben.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
pi_178722930
Nou, zo opmerkelijk. Waarom hadden ze hun wingsuit en gopro niet mee naar werk? Vragen, vragen.
Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi
  woensdag 25 april 2018 @ 01:02:09 #198
47122 ATuin-hek
theguyver's sidekick!
pi_178725933
quote:
0s.gif Op dinsdag 24 april 2018 21:34 schreef Tingo het volgende:

[..]

Why is Leslie Robertson not telling us the truth?
Do you still regard the man as a reliable, trustworthy source of information?
If you read and understand this short statement from John Skilling (the real chief structural engineer) properly,you would also understand that what he is describing is very much in contradiction to what your posted 'hoofdontwerper' source (Leslie Robertson) says and what we saw on TV that day....

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

In no way does he even imply that the plane itself would be in the building with the 'dumped fuel'.
Eh, wat? :D En die brandstof teleporteert door een verder intacte gevel heen of zo?

Het zou beter zijn als je gewoon eens concreet antwoord gaf, in plaats van al deze halve antwoorden met veel geimpliceerde zooi. Verder maak je natuurlijk ook weer een flinke logische denkfout door te denken dat hij zegt dat het vliegtuig niet door de gevel kan door er niets over te zeggen. Zo werkt dat niet.
Egregious professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography
Onikaan ni ov dovah
pi_178732035
quote:
0s.gif Op woensdag 25 april 2018 01:02 schreef ATuin-hek het volgende:

[..]

Eh, wat? :D En die brandstof teleporteert door een verder intacte gevel heen of zo?

Het zou beter zijn als je gewoon eens concreet antwoord gaf, in plaats van al deze halve antwoorden met veel geimpliceerde zooi. Verder maak je natuurlijk ook weer een flinke logische denkfout door te denken dat hij zegt dat het vliegtuig niet door de gevel kan door er niets over te zeggen. Zo werkt dat niet.
You probably didn't read my post properly like you have not read John Skillings statement properly.
M'n post over....van 3 dagen terug...

Skilling does not say anything about the plane going through the steel structure.He says that the fuel from the plane would be 'dumped inside' the building. Understandable, as there would be hundreds of windows shattered around the impact zone (which we did not see in the silly fake footage) where fuel 'would dump into the building' but, as Skilling says, the building structure would still be there.
In the new 'reality' we will be living in,nothing will be real and everything will be true-David A.McGowan
  woensdag 25 april 2018 @ 13:37:58 #200
47122 ATuin-hek
theguyver's sidekick!
pi_178732310
quote:
0s.gif Op woensdag 25 april 2018 13:18 schreef Tingo het volgende:

[..]

You probably didn't read my post properly like you have not read John Skillings statement properly.
M'n post over....van 3 dagen terug...

Skilling does not say anything about the plane going through the steel structure.He says that the fuel from the plane would be 'dumped inside' the building. Understandable, as there would be hundreds of windows shattered around the impact zone (which we did not see in the silly fake footage) where fuel 'would dump into the building' but, as Skilling says, the building structure would still be there.
En daaruit concludeer je onterecht dat hij zegt dat het vliegtuig niet door de gevel kan.
Egregious professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography
Onikaan ni ov dovah
abonnementen ibood.com bol.com Coolblue
Forum Opties
Forumhop:
Hop naar:
(afkorting, bv 'KLB')