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  zondag 16 maart 2008 @ 23:20:21 #1
104871 remlof
Europees federalist
pi_57423139
De turkse regering wil de "Hadith" herschrijven, een 1400 jaar oud geschrift dat uitspraken van de profeet Mohammed bevat, omdat het "niet meer in deze tijd zou passen en negatieve invloeden op de maatschappij" zou hebben.

Op zich een nobel streven, maar ik vind het absoluut niet de taak van een regering om zich in religie te mengen. Dit zou van het geloof zelf (lees hoge geestelijken) uit moeten gaan.
quote:
Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran. The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad. As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.

But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam. It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.

'Reformation'
Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion. Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.

Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it. The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology. An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.

"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says. "You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition."

The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.
Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.

Revolutionary
Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet. But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.

Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example. "There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.
"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."
The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.

Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone". So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.

Original spirit
Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day. As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".

They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior. One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith. She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women. "There are honour killings," she explains.
"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love. "There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."

'New Islam'
According to Fadi Hakura, an expert on Turkey from Chatham House in London, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.

He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam. "This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation," he says. "Not exactly the same, but if you think, it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion. " Fadi Hakura believes that until now secularist Turkey has been intent on creating a new politics for Islam. Now, he says, "they are trying to fashion a new Islam."

Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy. They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones. "You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura. "You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology. "I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."
Bron: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7264903.stm
  zondag 16 maart 2008 @ 23:29:21 #2
71602 tong_poh
Mylee! Good Fuck!
pi_57423389
Ik vind juist dat het eerder de zaak is van de regering dan geestelijke leiders. Het zijn juist meestal geestelijke leiders die haat zaaien. Goed dat de turkse regering dat in de kiem wil smoren.
Horrible Cunt!
pi_57423416
quote:
Op zondag 16 maart 2008 23:20 schreef remlof het volgende:

Op zich een nobel streven, maar ik vind het absoluut niet de taak van een regering om zich in religie te mengen. Dit zou van het geloof zelf (lees hoge geestelijken) uit moeten gaan.
[..]
''theologians at Ankara University''

Waarom beweren dat religieuze veranderingen altijd van hoge geestelijken uit gaan of uit zouden moeten gaan?
  zondag 16 maart 2008 @ 23:33:00 #4
104871 remlof
Europees federalist
pi_57423485
quote:
Op zondag 16 maart 2008 23:30 schreef rutger05 het volgende:

[..]

''theologians at Ankara University''
"The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University..."
quote:
Waarom beweren dat religieuze veranderingen altijd van hoge geestelijken uit gaan of uit zouden moeten gaan?
Omdat geloofshervormingen dan gemakkelijker geaccepteerd worden door de gelovigen. Maarten Luther was toch ook een priester?
pi_57423642
quote:
Op zondag 16 maart 2008 23:30 schreef rutger05 het volgende:

[..]

''theologians at Ankara University''

Waarom beweren dat religieuze veranderingen altijd van hoge geestelijken uit gaan of uit zouden moeten gaan?
Omdat wanneer niet-geleerde mensen zoals Bin Laden en Zawahiri aan macht komen het verkeerd afloopt, een is een architect ander arts.
  maandag 17 maart 2008 @ 00:04:48 #6
172669 Papierversnipperaar
Cafeďne is ook maar een drug.
pi_57424094
Mag ik de hadith herschrijven?!?
Free Assange! Hack the Planet
[b]Op dinsdag 6 januari 2009 19:59 schreef Papierversnipperaar het volgende:[/b]
De gevolgen van de argumenten van de anti-rook maffia
pi_57424608
ja, lachuh...
Mu!
pi_57424678
Schuw vooral niet om wat toe te voegen aan dit topic mensen.

[ Bericht 6% gewijzigd door #ANONIEM op 17-03-2008 00:47:14 ]
pi_57424728
Ja, dat doe ik toch net ?

Vooruit dan: ik denk dat het beter zou zijn als de turkse overheid zich daar niet mee zou bemoeien, maar men zou wel bij de kerk zelf aan kunnen dringen op zo'n herziening. Ik zie liever een zo groot mogelijke scheiding tussen kerk en staat.
Mu!
  maandag 17 maart 2008 @ 00:49:34 #10
150517 SpecialK
No hesitation, no delay.
pi_57424732
- edit, nogmaals niet serieuze reacties / toevoegende bijdragen hoef ik hier niet te hebben -

[ Bericht 31% gewijzigd door #ANONIEM op 17-03-2008 00:54:03 ]
There are no things, but as a consequence there are as many things as we like
pi_57424818
quote:
Op maandag 17 maart 2008 00:49 schreef SingleCoil het volgende:
Ja, dat doe ik toch net ?
Niet reageren met oneliners of verkapte tvp's is nog altijd terug te vinden in onze FAQ, dus nee.
quote:
Vooruit dan: ik denk dat het beter zou zijn als de turkse overheid zich daar niet mee zou bemoeien, maar men zou wel bij de kerk zelf aan kunnen dringen op zo'n herziening. Ik zie liever een zo groot mogelijke scheiding tussen kerk en staat.
In Turkije bestaat er geen - spreekwoordelijke - kerk los van de overheid. Alles gaat dmv controleren / goedkeuren van staat, zo een initiatief is wellicht niet echt seculier, maar het is wel een sterke signaal voor de regio en een voorbeeld voor andere landen.
pi_57424959
ook in Turkije zou dat kunnen veranderen. Een typisch gevalletje van 'de overheid bemoeit zich met dingen waar ze zich beter buiten kan houden'. En dat zie je in onvolwassen culturen vrij vaak, het kost toch veel tijd om met macht om te leren gaan.
Mu!
pi_57425093
quote:
Op maandag 17 maart 2008 01:08 schreef SingleCoil het volgende:
ook in Turkije zou dat kunnen veranderen. Een typisch gevalletje van 'de overheid bemoeit zich met dingen waar ze zich beter buiten kan houden'. En dat zie je in onvolwassen culturen vrij vaak, het kost toch veel tijd om met macht om te leren gaan.
Is dat niet louter speculatie, het kan ook erger worden in TR, met juiste mensen aan macht kan het ook een Talibanistische regime worden.
  maandag 17 maart 2008 @ 07:29:01 #14
70076 Alicey
Miss Speedy
pi_57425845
Naar mijn mening zou de Turkse regering zich daar absoluut niet mee moeten bezigheiden, maar zou het van de geestelijkheid zelf moeten uitgaan. De regering zou zich inhoudelijk nooit moeten bemoeien met religie, dat is niet haar domein.
pi_57426905
Hmm. ongeacht of dit zou mogen, vind ik dit een goede ontwikkeling, voor de ontwikkeling van de Islam. Denk aan de splitsing van kerken.

Ik zal eerlijk zeggen, ik ben absoluut geen voorstander van de Islam (of welke godsdienst die haat probeert te zaaien dan ook), maar ik hoop dat er zo een stuk gematigere stroing ontstaat, waardoor de extremistische stromingen makkelijker aan te pakken word
For every fact, there is an equal and opposite opinion.
Twitch.tv/bensel15
pi_57429446
Our Presidency has deemed it necessary to make the following statement due to some news articles published by BBC and other media outlets in the past few days concerning the Hadith project sponsored by the Presidency of Religious Affairs and the Religious Charitable Foundation of Turkey.

It has been underlined on different occasions and by different agents that provide religious education and services in our country that it is necessary to present the message of the Prophet of Islam (saaw) in a simple and an understandable language. In this context, the Publication Board of the Presidency of Religious Affairs and the Religious Charitable Foundation of Turkey took a concrete and comprehensive step to initiate an original study by the name of “Hadith Project According to Subjects”.

In this project, 7 Scientific Committee members, 10 verification and data preparation officials and 85 scholars from different Theology Faculties specialized in the field of Hadith have been working.

The aim of the study is to offer the contemporary audience the Prophet’s message in a comprehensible language while taking into account the interpretations concerning hadith narrations, making necessary amendments in cases of misconceptions and omitting the issues and interpretations which do not have current value.

In preparing the project, the Traditions are explained within the context of the unity of Hadith and the Quranic verses; throughout the course of evaluating the Tradition, attention is given to the reciprocal connection of the basic religious texts and the existing internal coherence between them. Above all, the closeness among the Koran and Hadith is continually reflected in the texts. In interpreting the sayings of the Prophet, the classical Hadith sources are utilized besides making use of the interpretations which have appeared in the Islamic tradition as well as early Qur’anic commentaries, jurisprudence, theology and life of the Prophet of Islam.

The current work takes as its starting point the methodology of Islamic understanding and interpretation that has grown out of the Islamic intellectual tradition. While the Hadith project seeks to establish a connection between Hadith narrations and current thinking and scientific data, it has avoided judging the past on the basis of today’s categories and stayed away from extreme interpretations.

Describing the Hadith project through such words as “reform”, “revision”, or “revolution” is entirely wrong. This mistake appears to developed because of defining Islam and the scholarly dynamism in the Islamic world through the historical and cultural heritage of Christianity. Consequently, our Presidency is surprised and deeply saddened by the description of this project with such baseless allegations as “sorting out the Hadith”, “interpreting the Hadith within the framework of moderate Islam”, associating the project with politics”, “hiring a foreign advisor”, “performing reform in the field of Hadith”,”making the Hadith consistent with the 21st. century”, “changing the theological bases of Islam”, etc.,. Such descriptions are not only against the stated intent and goals of the Hadith project but may also lead to misperceptions in our country as well as the rest of the Islamic world.

The main aim of the Presidency of Religious Affaires is to revitalize the message of the Prophet, as was performed in the past, and offer this blessed tenets to humanity in the most accurate way.

The Hadith Project was initiated and made a good progress with mentioned aim and ideas, and still carried on by numerous scholars working in different Theology Faculties in our country. We surely believe that the Hadith Project which has no connection with internal or external politics is entirely original, academic and scientific in quality. It will constitute an important step for carrying the universal message of the Prophet of Islam to the 21st century.

With deep respect and appreciation.

The Presidency of Religious Affairs

Dinayet: http://diyanet8.diyanet.gov.tr/english/englh.asp?id=114
X
pi_57432678
quote:
Op maandag 17 maart 2008 12:08 schreef Alulu het volgende:
Our Presidency has deemed it necessary to make the following statement due to some news articles published by BBC and other media outlets in the past few days concerning the Hadith project sponsored by the Presidency of Religious Affairs and the Religious Charitable Foundation of Turkey.

It has been underlined on different occasions and by different agents that provide religious education and services in our country that it is necessary to present the message of the Prophet of Islam (saaw) in a simple and an understandable language. In this context, the Publication Board of the Presidency of Religious Affairs and the Religious Charitable Foundation of Turkey took a concrete and comprehensive step to initiate an original study by the name of “Hadith Project According to Subjects”.

In this project, 7 Scientific Committee members, 10 verification and data preparation officials and 85 scholars from different Theology Faculties specialized in the field of Hadith have been working.

The aim of the study is to offer the contemporary audience the Prophet’s message in a comprehensible language while taking into account the interpretations concerning hadith narrations, making necessary amendments in cases of misconceptions and omitting the issues and interpretations which do not have current value.

In preparing the project, the Traditions are explained within the context of the unity of Hadith and the Quranic verses; throughout the course of evaluating the Tradition, attention is given to the reciprocal connection of the basic religious texts and the existing internal coherence between them. Above all, the closeness among the Koran and Hadith is continually reflected in the texts. In interpreting the sayings of the Prophet, the classical Hadith sources are utilized besides making use of the interpretations which have appeared in the Islamic tradition as well as early Qur’anic commentaries, jurisprudence, theology and life of the Prophet of Islam.

The current work takes as its starting point the methodology of Islamic understanding and interpretation that has grown out of the Islamic intellectual tradition. While the Hadith project seeks to establish a connection between Hadith narrations and current thinking and scientific data, it has avoided judging the past on the basis of today’s categories and stayed away from extreme interpretations.

Describing the Hadith project through such words as “reform”, “revision”, or “revolution” is entirely wrong. This mistake appears to developed because of defining Islam and the scholarly dynamism in the Islamic world through the historical and cultural heritage of Christianity. Consequently, our Presidency is surprised and deeply saddened by the description of this project with such baseless allegations as “sorting out the Hadith”, “interpreting the Hadith within the framework of moderate Islam”, associating the project with politics”, “hiring a foreign advisor”, “performing reform in the field of Hadith”,”making the Hadith consistent with the 21st. century”, “changing the theological bases of Islam”, etc.,. Such descriptions are not only against the stated intent and goals of the Hadith project but may also lead to misperceptions in our country as well as the rest of the Islamic world.

The main aim of the Presidency of Religious Affaires is to revitalize the message of the Prophet, as was performed in the past, and offer this blessed tenets to humanity in the most accurate way.

The Hadith Project was initiated and made a good progress with mentioned aim and ideas, and still carried on by numerous scholars working in different Theology Faculties in our country. We surely believe that the Hadith Project which has no connection with internal or external politics is entirely original, academic and scientific in quality. It will constitute an important step for carrying the universal message of the Prophet of Islam to the 21st century.

With deep respect and appreciation.

The Presidency of Religious Affairs

Bron: Republiek Turkije, Ministerie van Geloofszaken
  dinsdag 18 maart 2008 @ 12:19:52 #18
203607 Ankeiler
Steen des aanstoots
pi_57450557
quote:
Op zondag 16 maart 2008 23:20 schreef remlof het volgende:
De turkse regering wil de "Hadith" herschrijven, een 1400 jaar oud geschrift dat uitspraken van de profeet Mohammed bevat, omdat het "niet meer in deze tijd zou passen en negatieve invloeden op de maatschappij" zou hebben.

Op zich een nobel streven, maar ik vind het absoluut niet de taak van een regering om zich in religie te mengen. Dit zou van het geloof zelf (lees hoge geestelijken) uit moeten gaan.
[..]

Bron: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7264903.stm
De hadith is inderdaad de bron van 99% van de problemen binnen de islam. afschaffen is nog veel beter dan herschrijven.
pi_57451062
quote:
Op dinsdag 18 maart 2008 12:19 schreef Ankeiler het volgende:

[..]

De hadith is inderdaad de bron van 99% van de problemen binnen de islam. afschaffen is nog veel beter dan herschrijven.
En daarme heb je alle ellende op de wereld opgelost. Leuk slotje dan maar weer
Praise to the emptiness that blanks out existence. Existence:
This place made from our love for that emptiness!
  dinsdag 18 maart 2008 @ 14:30:17 #20
104871 remlof
Europees federalist
pi_57453245
quote:
Op maandag 17 maart 2008 15:02 schreef TheMagnificent het volgende:

[..]
Ok.

"The main aim of the Presidency of Religious Affaires is to revitalize the message of the Prophet, as was performed in the past, and offer this blessed tenets to humanity in the most accurate way.

The Hadith Project was initiated and made a good progress with mentioned aim and ideas, and still carried on by numerous scholars working in different Theology Faculties in our country. We surely believe that the Hadith Project which has no connection with internal or external politics is entirely original, academic and scientific in quality. It will constitute an important step for carrying the universal message of the Prophet of Islam to the 21st century."


Gelukkig had ik "hervorming" al tussen aanhalingstekens geplaatst in de TT. Maar wat ze willen is toch gewoon een eigentijdse vertaling van die Hadith?
pi_57460609
Kan men dit vergelijken met de reformatie (en contrareformatie) bij de christenen?

Je moet alleen theologen vinden die achter de nieuwe theorie staan.
En het succes van de reformatie was de boekdrukkunst, bij de islam anno 2008 is dat internet.

Het lijkt me het vergelijken waard.
pi_57469390
Aardige vergelijking idd.

Toch verrot lastig, de normen en waarden van een cultuur op een gestuurde manier veranderen. Dit is wel de weg denk ik.
Mu!
pi_57469541
Tja, het mag natuurlijk niet, dat de overheid zich op deze manier met religie bemoeit (Turkije wat mij betreft nog láng niet bij de EU), maar in dit geval lijkt het doel de middelen te heiligen .
pi_57474157
quote:
Op dinsdag 18 maart 2008 14:30 schreef remlof het volgende:

[..]

Ok.

"The main aim of the Presidency of Religious Affaires is to revitalize the message of the Prophet, as was performed in the past, and offer this blessed tenets to humanity in the most accurate way.

The Hadith Project was initiated and made a good progress with mentioned aim and ideas, and still carried on by numerous scholars working in different Theology Faculties in our country. We surely believe that the Hadith Project which has no connection with internal or external politics is entirely original, academic and scientific in quality. It will constitute an important step for carrying the universal message of the Prophet of Islam to the 21st century."


Gelukkig had ik "hervorming" al tussen aanhalingstekens geplaatst in de TT. Maar wat ze willen is toch gewoon een eigentijdse vertaling van die Hadith?
Voor zover ik het heb begrepen zijn ze niet van plan om een werk te schrijven die de huidige Ahadith moet vervangen. Ze willen aan de hand van verschillende belangrijke (actuele) onderwerpen Ahadith (en andere islamitische bronnen) gebruiken, waarbij ze de Ahadith in een voor iedereen begrijpbare taal uit willen leggen.

Jouw TT en het bericht van de BBC kloppen inderdaad niet, want er is hier geen sprake van een ''hervorming'' van ''de Islam'', want dat zou betekenen dat er iets mis is met ''de Islam'' en de teksten. En dat is niet het geval.
pi_57477348
quote:
Op woensdag 19 maart 2008 12:49 schreef TheMagnificent het volgende:

[..]

Voor zover ik het heb begrepen zijn ze niet van plan om een werk te schrijven die de huidige Ahadith moet vervangen. Ze willen aan de hand van verschillende belangrijke (actuele) onderwerpen Ahadith (en andere islamitische bronnen) gebruiken, waarbij ze de Ahadith in een voor iedereen begrijpbare taal uit willen leggen.

Jouw TT en het bericht van de BBC kloppen inderdaad niet, want er is hier geen sprake van een ''hervorming'' van ''de Islam'', want dat zou betekenen dat er iets mis is met ''de Islam'' en de teksten. En dat is niet het geval.
Je bedoeld zeker in de zin van een nieuwe turkse vertaling van de arabische hadith?
Praise to the emptiness that blanks out existence. Existence:
This place made from our love for that emptiness!
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